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On August 01 2013 06:56 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 06:51 Zealos wrote:On August 01 2013 06:48 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 06:45 Zealos wrote:On August 01 2013 06:40 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 06:39 Zealos wrote:On August 01 2013 06:36 Shiori wrote:On August 01 2013 06:33 Klondikebar wrote:On August 01 2013 06:30 KwarK wrote:On August 01 2013 06:26 Zealos wrote:
Recognizing that the reason your find black women unattractive is, at least in part, due to racism at a subconscious level, formed by the institutionalized racism in the UK, and in 90% of the world, goes a huge way to providing a solution to the problem. By the same token whether or not I want to have sex with men comes down to misogyny. If I'll hire a black women for the same wage as anyone else, if I'll treat a black woman customer the same as any other and if I'll give them the same respect I give anyone else then I am clearly not a racist. Now, if I hate blacks and because of that choose not to have sex with them then sure. But in that case I wouldn't be racist because I don't fuck them, I don't fuck them because I'm racist. But I'm not racist, no matter how much you call me racist, denying black women my penis is not indicative of a fundamental hatred of their colour. But like...do you treat black women differently? I know the obvious answer is "of course not!" But we all have weird little stuff ingrained into us like being more nervous when a black guy is walking towards us than a white guy or when a woman holds her purse tighter around a black guy. If we even notice it we're horrified that we're doing it, but when prejudice has been beaten into you for 99% of your life, the quirks can be hard to get rid of. I am intensely suspicious of pretty much anyone, race/gender notwithstanding. So at least I'm unprejudiced in my cynicism. ^^ Please don't misrepresent me within the thread. I am right here and able to respond myself, thank you.
Who's lives are being threatened. Lets see. You, along with a great deal of other men like you, are telling an entire race of women that they are not attractive because of the color of their skin. If you cannot see why that is a problem, then I don't know what to say. Except no. I'm not saying that black women are unattractive. I'm saying that I don't find them attractive. There's a difference. Do you understand what it is? I don't think people with black girlfriends are misguided or something. They just have different subjective tastes than me. Nothing wrong with that at all. Ok, but when there are enough of you telling them you don't find them attractive, the message they get from the collective, is, that they are not attractive. Why are we in charge of the collective(whatever the fuck that is)? What are we supposed to say "I am attracted to you now, but let me get over my racism and I'll get back to you." For the millionth time. I am not saying that you have to be attracted to them. But if I'm not attracted to them, I'm racist!!! I don't want to be racist, that's bad and then black people will know that I am racist and hate me! Its the ultimate catch 22. The key is to not have any preferences that can even be mildly connected to race in any way. But you shouldn't have such fear of recognizing your own racist traits. This isn't "I hate blacks and I want them to burn in hell" racism. This is a subconscious thing that has formed from factors completely out of your control. I can't even get an erection looking at dark skin porn. But, know what? Same with fake breasts, tongue rings, fat girls, gay porn, scat/water play, tall women, small dick guy, or positions other than the one's I like... I don't have control over these things, it's personal preference... I'm not racist if I don't find black women attractive, the same reason I'm not a homophobe if I don't find guys attractive, or discriminatory to fat people if I don't find them attractive...
There is a massive difference between porn and actual personal interaction. Porn is about idealized fantasies, being attracted to a person is entirely different.
I think being overweight is a turn-off, but I have been attracted to overweight girls.
If a girl meets every single one of your "idealized" traits except for dark skin, and that alone would kill all attraction for you...then yes, you've got some serious prejudices at play.
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On August 01 2013 06:37 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 06:33 Zealos wrote:On August 01 2013 06:27 KwarK wrote:On August 01 2013 06:25 Shiori wrote:Sorry, by the way, for taking people's rights, and lives too seriously Whose rights/lives are being threatened by my choice to have sex with one person instead of another? I believe he is conflating this fight with the general struggle against transphobia which is a real problem and has been expressed by many people in this topic. He's not doing it particularly well and I think he's somewhat of an internet cliche but transphobia is a serious issue. Please don't misrepresent me within the thread. I am right here and able to respond myself, thank you. Who's lives are being threatened. Lets see. You, along with a great deal of other men like you, are telling an entire race of women that they are not attractive because of the color of their skin. If you cannot see why that is a problem, then I don't know what to say. Will they die of a broken heart because I don't want to use them like a piece of meat and come inside them? God, what if they find out the gay community don't want to fuck them either? Shit! You're being absurd.
Did you know that by not wanting to have sex with black men you're a racist homophobe? 
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United States43505 Posts
On August 01 2013 06:59 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 06:53 KwarK wrote:
I believe scarlett is a trans woman and just posted that you should tell someone but I don't believe you're obliged to unless they directly ask. That said, I'm sure living a life as a trans woman with a very real threat of physical violence you'd want to minimise the chances of that by filtering out the guys who will get mad, even if you aren't morally obliged to. I said that for pre-op;; It is completely different situation than post-op in which case I would say you're not obligated to at all unless they ask directly or sometimes in a serious relationship depending on circumstances
Sorry for misreading your post. Personally if I were with a trans woman I'd want to be with the kind of trans woman who told me as a courtesy, even if she didn't think it mattered.
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Ignoring right and wrong it's hard to tell your date about your genital defect (being transgender) knowing that every time he'll probably either freak out in your face or, if he's nice enough, will politely tell you that he just wants to be friends. Knowing that you had a chance at love only for your genitals to, yet again, rip your hopes right out of your throat sucks.
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On August 01 2013 06:59 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 06:53 KwarK wrote:
I believe scarlett is a trans woman and just posted that you should tell someone but I don't believe you're obliged to unless they directly ask. That said, I'm sure living a life as a trans woman with a very real threat of physical violence you'd want to minimise the chances of that by filtering out the guys who will get mad, even if you aren't morally obliged to. I said that for pre-op;; It is completely different situation than post-op in which case I would say you're not obligated to at all unless they ask directly or sometimes in a serious relationship depending on circumstances
I still think it would be a courteous thing to do-- like a guy letting a woman know he has a micro penis or some other aspect that makes his genitals a lot different from an average person's. Personally, I love the clitoris, labia, g spot, and hitting the cervix.. I'd like to know if some of these parts were missing, same as I'd expect a woman to want to know if a man didn't have testicles.
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On August 01 2013 07:05 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 06:59 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:On August 01 2013 06:53 KwarK wrote:
I believe scarlett is a trans woman and just posted that you should tell someone but I don't believe you're obliged to unless they directly ask. That said, I'm sure living a life as a trans woman with a very real threat of physical violence you'd want to minimise the chances of that by filtering out the guys who will get mad, even if you aren't morally obliged to. I said that for pre-op;; It is completely different situation than post-op in which case I would say you're not obligated to at all unless they ask directly or sometimes in a serious relationship depending on circumstances I still think it would be a courteous thing to do-- like a guy letting a woman know he has a micro penis or some other aspect that makes his genitals a lot different from an average person's. Personally, I love the clitoris, labia, g spot, and hitting the cervix.. I'd like to know if some of these parts were missing, same as I'd expect a woman to want to know if a man didn't have testicles.
These parts wouldn't be missing.
The argument is, that post-op, you can't tell the difference.
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On August 01 2013 07:01 TheRealArtemis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 06:59 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:On August 01 2013 06:53 KwarK wrote:
I believe scarlett is a trans woman and just posted that you should tell someone but I don't believe you're obliged to unless they directly ask. That said, I'm sure living a life as a trans woman with a very real threat of physical violence you'd want to minimise the chances of that by filtering out the guys who will get mad, even if you aren't morally obliged to. I said that for pre-op;; It is completely different situation than post-op in which case I would say you're not obligated to at all unless you're in a serious relationship or they ask directly But you don't feel the other person should know that post-op? Even though you might know that you and his view on what a female is, is different? Even if its not a serious relationship, I find it pretty necessary for people to know.
http://freethoughtblogs.com/nataliereed/2012/03/20/the-ethical-imperative-of-disclosure-or-how-to-believe-your-victim-owes-you-an-opportunity-for-abuse/ <- this is a good piece on the subject
Don't know what I will do personally; everyone handles it differently. Got plenty of time to think about it I guess as I'm not interested in a relationship until I'm though with all this shit in a few years
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On August 01 2013 07:02 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 06:56 Rhaegal wrote:On August 01 2013 06:51 Zealos wrote:On August 01 2013 06:48 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 06:45 Zealos wrote:On August 01 2013 06:40 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 06:39 Zealos wrote:On August 01 2013 06:36 Shiori wrote:On August 01 2013 06:33 Klondikebar wrote:On August 01 2013 06:30 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
By the same token whether or not I want to have sex with men comes down to misogyny.
If I'll hire a black women for the same wage as anyone else, if I'll treat a black woman customer the same as any other and if I'll give them the same respect I give anyone else then I am clearly not a racist.
Now, if I hate blacks and because of that choose not to have sex with them then sure. But in that case I wouldn't be racist because I don't fuck them, I don't fuck them because I'm racist. But I'm not racist, no matter how much you call me racist, denying black women my penis is not indicative of a fundamental hatred of their colour. But like...do you treat black women differently? I know the obvious answer is "of course not!" But we all have weird little stuff ingrained into us like being more nervous when a black guy is walking towards us than a white guy or when a woman holds her purse tighter around a black guy. If we even notice it we're horrified that we're doing it, but when prejudice has been beaten into you for 99% of your life, the quirks can be hard to get rid of. I am intensely suspicious of pretty much anyone, race/gender notwithstanding. So at least I'm unprejudiced in my cynicism. ^^ Please don't misrepresent me within the thread. I am right here and able to respond myself, thank you.
Who's lives are being threatened. Lets see. You, along with a great deal of other men like you, are telling an entire race of women that they are not attractive because of the color of their skin. If you cannot see why that is a problem, then I don't know what to say. Except no. I'm not saying that black women are unattractive. I'm saying that I don't find them attractive. There's a difference. Do you understand what it is? I don't think people with black girlfriends are misguided or something. They just have different subjective tastes than me. Nothing wrong with that at all. Ok, but when there are enough of you telling them you don't find them attractive, the message they get from the collective, is, that they are not attractive. Why are we in charge of the collective(whatever the fuck that is)? What are we supposed to say "I am attracted to you now, but let me get over my racism and I'll get back to you." For the millionth time. I am not saying that you have to be attracted to them. But if I'm not attracted to them, I'm racist!!! I don't want to be racist, that's bad and then black people will know that I am racist and hate me! Its the ultimate catch 22. The key is to not have any preferences that can even be mildly connected to race in any way. But you shouldn't have such fear of recognizing your own racist traits. This isn't "I hate blacks and I want them to burn in hell" racism. This is a subconscious thing that has formed from factors completely out of your control. I can't even get an erection looking at dark skin porn. But, know what? Same with fake breasts, tongue rings, fat girls, gay porn, scat/water play, tall women, small dick guy, or positions other than the one's I like... I don't have control over these things, it's personal preference... I'm not racist if I don't find black women attractive, the same reason I'm not a homophobe if I don't find guys attractive, or discriminatory to fat people if I don't find them attractive... There is a massive difference between porn and actual personal interaction. Porn is about idealized fantasies, being attracted to a person is entirely different. I think being overweight is a turn-off, but I have been attracted to overweight girls. If a girl meets every single one of your "idealized" traits except for dark skin, and that alone would kill all attraction for you...then yes, you've got some serious prejudices at play.
I have always been attracted to White/Latina women, and not attracted to African/Asian.... there is no prejudice, I can't choose who I'm sexually attracted to.
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On August 01 2013 07:07 Zealos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 07:05 Rhaegal wrote:On August 01 2013 06:59 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:On August 01 2013 06:53 KwarK wrote:
I believe scarlett is a trans woman and just posted that you should tell someone but I don't believe you're obliged to unless they directly ask. That said, I'm sure living a life as a trans woman with a very real threat of physical violence you'd want to minimise the chances of that by filtering out the guys who will get mad, even if you aren't morally obliged to. I said that for pre-op;; It is completely different situation than post-op in which case I would say you're not obligated to at all unless they ask directly or sometimes in a serious relationship depending on circumstances I still think it would be a courteous thing to do-- like a guy letting a woman know he has a micro penis or some other aspect that makes his genitals a lot different from an average person's. Personally, I love the clitoris, labia, g spot, and hitting the cervix.. I'd like to know if some of these parts were missing, same as I'd expect a woman to want to know if a man didn't have testicles. These parts wouldn't be missing. The argument is, that post-op, you can't tell the difference.
C'mon. You know what he means.
Having an operation doesn't make you a woman in many peoples eyes. Its unfair for a transgen to hide that, Even though I know they shouldn't have the need to hide it. Alot fear violence, others just don't say because its a matter of principle. But, Its simply not fair not telling people.
On August 01 2013 07:08 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 07:01 TheRealArtemis wrote:On August 01 2013 06:59 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:On August 01 2013 06:53 KwarK wrote:
I believe scarlett is a trans woman and just posted that you should tell someone but I don't believe you're obliged to unless they directly ask. That said, I'm sure living a life as a trans woman with a very real threat of physical violence you'd want to minimise the chances of that by filtering out the guys who will get mad, even if you aren't morally obliged to. I said that for pre-op;; It is completely different situation than post-op in which case I would say you're not obligated to at all unless you're in a serious relationship or they ask directly But you don't feel the other person should know that post-op? Even though you might know that you and his view on what a female is, is different? Even if its not a serious relationship, I find it pretty necessary for people to know. http://freethoughtblogs.com/nataliereed/2012/03/20/the-ethical-imperative-of-disclosure-or-how-to-believe-your-victim-owes-you-an-opportunity-for-abuse/ <- this is a good piece on the subject Don't know what I will do personally; everyone handles it differently. Got plenty of time to think about it I guess as I'm not interested in a relationship until I'm though with all this shit in a few years
I will get on the article right now.
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On August 01 2013 07:08 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 07:01 TheRealArtemis wrote:On August 01 2013 06:59 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:On August 01 2013 06:53 KwarK wrote:
I believe scarlett is a trans woman and just posted that you should tell someone but I don't believe you're obliged to unless they directly ask. That said, I'm sure living a life as a trans woman with a very real threat of physical violence you'd want to minimise the chances of that by filtering out the guys who will get mad, even if you aren't morally obliged to. I said that for pre-op;; It is completely different situation than post-op in which case I would say you're not obligated to at all unless you're in a serious relationship or they ask directly But you don't feel the other person should know that post-op? Even though you might know that you and his view on what a female is, is different? Even if its not a serious relationship, I find it pretty necessary for people to know. http://freethoughtblogs.com/nataliereed/2012/03/20/the-ethical-imperative-of-disclosure-or-how-to-believe-your-victim-owes-you-an-opportunity-for-abuse/ <- this is a good piece on the subject Don't know what I will do personally; everyone handles it differently. Got plenty of time to think about it I guess as I'm not interested in a relationship until I'm though with all this shit in a few years
wow that's an awesome article!
I personally don't believe people have to disclose their medical history regarding things that can't hurt me before i stick my penis in them.
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This thread got depressing quickly.
As a real woman who also happens to have a medical history that includes a gender transition if there's any chance what so ever that I'll end up on a date with a guy I tell him before he even gets my phone number, because the alternative is extremely risky to my health in this society.
I also think it's only fair that I disclose it to potential partners anyway because I know some people have a problem with it and I don't want them to feel sexually uncomfortable/confused/taken advantage of(?) or anything else which their mind might throw at them. Wish I didn't have to, but that's not the world I live in right now. Hoping for brain transplant tech I guess, though I'm not sure even that would be sufficient for everyone.
On the bathroom issue, I'm not going to go in to a male bathroom because I'm not male and I'd certainly draw attention. For many years I simply tried to avoid them altogether because I was worried about using either, but there are times when you don't have a choice and you have to pick the most appropriate one. These days I don't really think about it, and I've never had anyone seem to care as it's all stalls anyway or I might quickly sort my appearance in the mirror like everyone else. Not really much to worry about there.
Edit: And as the discussion has moved on a little, all of this is based on how I have actually handled things not on how I might.
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On August 01 2013 07:09 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 07:02 WolfintheSheep wrote:On August 01 2013 06:56 Rhaegal wrote:On August 01 2013 06:51 Zealos wrote:On August 01 2013 06:48 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 06:45 Zealos wrote:On August 01 2013 06:40 Plansix wrote:On August 01 2013 06:39 Zealos wrote:On August 01 2013 06:36 Shiori wrote:On August 01 2013 06:33 Klondikebar wrote:
[quote]
But like...do you treat black women differently? I know the obvious answer is "of course not!" But we all have weird little stuff ingrained into us like being more nervous when a black guy is walking towards us than a white guy or when a woman holds her purse tighter around a black guy. If we even notice it we're horrified that we're doing it, but when prejudice has been beaten into you for 99% of your life, the quirks can be hard to get rid of. I am intensely suspicious of pretty much anyone, race/gender notwithstanding. So at least I'm unprejudiced in my cynicism. ^^ Please don't misrepresent me within the thread. I am right here and able to respond myself, thank you.
Who's lives are being threatened. Lets see. You, along with a great deal of other men like you, are telling an entire race of women that they are not attractive because of the color of their skin. If you cannot see why that is a problem, then I don't know what to say. Except no. I'm not saying that black women are unattractive. I'm saying that I don't find them attractive. There's a difference. Do you understand what it is? I don't think people with black girlfriends are misguided or something. They just have different subjective tastes than me. Nothing wrong with that at all. Ok, but when there are enough of you telling them you don't find them attractive, the message they get from the collective, is, that they are not attractive. Why are we in charge of the collective(whatever the fuck that is)? What are we supposed to say "I am attracted to you now, but let me get over my racism and I'll get back to you." For the millionth time. I am not saying that you have to be attracted to them. But if I'm not attracted to them, I'm racist!!! I don't want to be racist, that's bad and then black people will know that I am racist and hate me! Its the ultimate catch 22. The key is to not have any preferences that can even be mildly connected to race in any way. But you shouldn't have such fear of recognizing your own racist traits. This isn't "I hate blacks and I want them to burn in hell" racism. This is a subconscious thing that has formed from factors completely out of your control. I can't even get an erection looking at dark skin porn. But, know what? Same with fake breasts, tongue rings, fat girls, gay porn, scat/water play, tall women, small dick guy, or positions other than the one's I like... I don't have control over these things, it's personal preference... I'm not racist if I don't find black women attractive, the same reason I'm not a homophobe if I don't find guys attractive, or discriminatory to fat people if I don't find them attractive... There is a massive difference between porn and actual personal interaction. Porn is about idealized fantasies, being attracted to a person is entirely different. I think being overweight is a turn-off, but I have been attracted to overweight girls. If a girl meets every single one of your "idealized" traits except for dark skin, and that alone would kill all attraction for you...then yes, you've got some serious prejudices at play. I have always been attracted to White/Latina women, and not attracted to African/Asian.... there is no prejudice, I can't choose who I'm sexually attracted to.
But like, you just have to realise the reason that you're attracted to certain people blahblahblah. I've gotta go to bed. Just for clarification:
I don't hate men. I don't think anyone should be forced to be attracted to any kind of features. I don't think not being attracted to blacks or transgender people makes you a terrible human being.
I believe that the reason people find themselves attracted to certain races rather than others is down to what society has told them over and over as they have grown up. This has led you to find White/Latina women more attractive. If you can recognize that as the cause then it goes a long way to improving equality.
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United States43505 Posts
On August 01 2013 07:07 Zealos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 07:05 Rhaegal wrote:On August 01 2013 06:59 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:On August 01 2013 06:53 KwarK wrote:
I believe scarlett is a trans woman and just posted that you should tell someone but I don't believe you're obliged to unless they directly ask. That said, I'm sure living a life as a trans woman with a very real threat of physical violence you'd want to minimise the chances of that by filtering out the guys who will get mad, even if you aren't morally obliged to. I said that for pre-op;; It is completely different situation than post-op in which case I would say you're not obligated to at all unless they ask directly or sometimes in a serious relationship depending on circumstances I still think it would be a courteous thing to do-- like a guy letting a woman know he has a micro penis or some other aspect that makes his genitals a lot different from an average person's. Personally, I love the clitoris, labia, g spot, and hitting the cervix.. I'd like to know if some of these parts were missing, same as I'd expect a woman to want to know if a man didn't have testicles. These parts wouldn't be missing. The argument is, that post-op, you can't tell the difference.
Not telling someone something that you know they would feel strongly about and affect their decision making regarding consent for sex just because they won't find out if you don't tell them is pretty unethical.
On the one hand you could assume that if they felt that strongly about it then they would have asked the question, at which point lying about it to trick them into consenting where they would not otherwise becomes flat out wrong, and that not asking the question is admitting that they do not care about the answer.
On the other hand you could assume that given you're in small minority it may not have occurred to them to ask the question in which case you can just tell them.
It's a shitty position but nobody said being trans was gonna be awesome.
Whether or not they can tell the difference doesn't in any way change the value they place on the difference and in the area of consent that matters.
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On August 01 2013 07:10 TheRealArtemis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 07:07 Zealos wrote:On August 01 2013 07:05 Rhaegal wrote:On August 01 2013 06:59 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:On August 01 2013 06:53 KwarK wrote:
I believe scarlett is a trans woman and just posted that you should tell someone but I don't believe you're obliged to unless they directly ask. That said, I'm sure living a life as a trans woman with a very real threat of physical violence you'd want to minimise the chances of that by filtering out the guys who will get mad, even if you aren't morally obliged to. I said that for pre-op;; It is completely different situation than post-op in which case I would say you're not obligated to at all unless they ask directly or sometimes in a serious relationship depending on circumstances I still think it would be a courteous thing to do-- like a guy letting a woman know he has a micro penis or some other aspect that makes his genitals a lot different from an average person's. Personally, I love the clitoris, labia, g spot, and hitting the cervix.. I'd like to know if some of these parts were missing, same as I'd expect a woman to want to know if a man didn't have testicles. These parts wouldn't be missing. The argument is, that post-op, you can't tell the difference. C'mon. You know what the means. Having an operation doesn't make you a woman in many peoples eyes. Its unfair for a transgen to hide that, Even though I know they should have the need to hide it. A lot fear violence, others just don't say because its a matter of principle. But, Its simply not fair not telling people.
And it's fair for trans people to be forced to disclose their medical history to everyone? THINK ABOUT IT PEOPLE! You finished that horrid shit of a transition and just want that part of your life to be behind you. You move to a new neighborhood and nobody knows you, everybody sees what they should see (a woman) and you're finally happy and ready to move on in life.
But you want to start dating, we all yearn for love. Once one person knows you might as well be out to everyone. Now everyone who knows looks at you differently, you're not 'just a woman', you're now a trans woman. Your past has come back to haunt you when all you wanted to do is run away.
You could have just kept it a secret, but they all said it wasn't fair to hide it. Now you have to go back to living in fear, fear that you'll lose your job or get assaulted. It's harder than you think to find a guy who will see passed your past.
Please think about both sides when you try to argue fairness.
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On August 01 2013 07:14 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 07:07 Zealos wrote:On August 01 2013 07:05 Rhaegal wrote:On August 01 2013 06:59 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:On August 01 2013 06:53 KwarK wrote:
I believe scarlett is a trans woman and just posted that you should tell someone but I don't believe you're obliged to unless they directly ask. That said, I'm sure living a life as a trans woman with a very real threat of physical violence you'd want to minimise the chances of that by filtering out the guys who will get mad, even if you aren't morally obliged to. I said that for pre-op;; It is completely different situation than post-op in which case I would say you're not obligated to at all unless they ask directly or sometimes in a serious relationship depending on circumstances I still think it would be a courteous thing to do-- like a guy letting a woman know he has a micro penis or some other aspect that makes his genitals a lot different from an average person's. Personally, I love the clitoris, labia, g spot, and hitting the cervix.. I'd like to know if some of these parts were missing, same as I'd expect a woman to want to know if a man didn't have testicles. These parts wouldn't be missing. The argument is, that post-op, you can't tell the difference. Not telling someone something that you know they would feel strongly about and affect their decision making regarding consent for sex just because they won't find out if you don't tell them is pretty unethical.
In the modern feminist definitions, I think it'd count as rape through lie of omission.
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On August 01 2013 07:17 fugs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 07:10 TheRealArtemis wrote:On August 01 2013 07:07 Zealos wrote:On August 01 2013 07:05 Rhaegal wrote:On August 01 2013 06:59 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:On August 01 2013 06:53 KwarK wrote:
I believe scarlett is a trans woman and just posted that you should tell someone but I don't believe you're obliged to unless they directly ask. That said, I'm sure living a life as a trans woman with a very real threat of physical violence you'd want to minimise the chances of that by filtering out the guys who will get mad, even if you aren't morally obliged to. I said that for pre-op;; It is completely different situation than post-op in which case I would say you're not obligated to at all unless they ask directly or sometimes in a serious relationship depending on circumstances I still think it would be a courteous thing to do-- like a guy letting a woman know he has a micro penis or some other aspect that makes his genitals a lot different from an average person's. Personally, I love the clitoris, labia, g spot, and hitting the cervix.. I'd like to know if some of these parts were missing, same as I'd expect a woman to want to know if a man didn't have testicles. These parts wouldn't be missing. The argument is, that post-op, you can't tell the difference. C'mon. You know what the means. Having an operation doesn't make you a woman in many peoples eyes. Its unfair for a transgen to hide that, Even though I know they should have the need to hide it. A lot fear violence, others just don't say because its a matter of principle. But, Its simply not fair not telling people. And it's fair for trans people to be forced to disclose their medical history to everyone? THINK ABOUT IT PEOPLE! You finished that horrid shit of a transition and just want that part of your life to be behind you. You move to a new neighborhood and nobody knows you, everybody sees what they should see (a woman) and you're finally happy and ready to move on in life. But you want to start dating, we all yearn for love. Once one person knows you might as well be out to everyone. Now everyone who knows looks at you differently, you're not 'just a woman', you're now a trans woman. Your past has come back to haunt you when all you wanted to do is run away. You could have just kept it a secret, but they all said it wasn't fair to hide it. Now you have to go back to living in fear, fear that you'll lose your job or get assaulted. It's harder than you think to find a guy who will see passed your past. Please think about both sides when you try to argue fairness.
Fairness is both parties having a complete understanding of the situation. Besides, why would you want to love someone who's transphobic, with your entire relationship being based on a lie.
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On August 01 2013 07:14 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 07:07 Zealos wrote:On August 01 2013 07:05 Rhaegal wrote:On August 01 2013 06:59 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:On August 01 2013 06:53 KwarK wrote:
I believe scarlett is a trans woman and just posted that you should tell someone but I don't believe you're obliged to unless they directly ask. That said, I'm sure living a life as a trans woman with a very real threat of physical violence you'd want to minimise the chances of that by filtering out the guys who will get mad, even if you aren't morally obliged to. I said that for pre-op;; It is completely different situation than post-op in which case I would say you're not obligated to at all unless they ask directly or sometimes in a serious relationship depending on circumstances I still think it would be a courteous thing to do-- like a guy letting a woman know he has a micro penis or some other aspect that makes his genitals a lot different from an average person's. Personally, I love the clitoris, labia, g spot, and hitting the cervix.. I'd like to know if some of these parts were missing, same as I'd expect a woman to want to know if a man didn't have testicles. These parts wouldn't be missing. The argument is, that post-op, you can't tell the difference. Not telling someone something that you know they would feel strongly about and affect their decision making regarding consent for sex just because they won't find out if you don't tell them is pretty unethical. On the one hand you could assume that if they felt that strongly about it then they would have asked the question, at which point lying about it to trick them into consenting where they would not otherwise becomes flat out wrong, and that not asking the question is admitting that they do not care about the answer. On the other hand you could assume that given you're in small minority it may not have occurred to them to ask the question in which case you can just tell them. It's a shitty position but nobody said being trans was gonna be awesome. Whether or not they can tell the difference doesn't in any way change the value they place on the difference and in the area of consent that matters.
To be brutally honest, the only reason I would mention it or not is for my own safety. This come before the other person feeling.
In a serious relationship, you kind of have to mention it, because your partner will be interested in your past and knowing you more.
From my point of view, the discomfort about having sex with a trans person has more to do with the other person thinking they are being tricked into homosexual/heterosexual sex. Maybe this is not the case, but this is mostly how I interpret it.
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United States43505 Posts
On August 01 2013 07:20 RockIronrod wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 07:17 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:10 TheRealArtemis wrote:On August 01 2013 07:07 Zealos wrote:On August 01 2013 07:05 Rhaegal wrote:On August 01 2013 06:59 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:On August 01 2013 06:53 KwarK wrote:
I believe scarlett is a trans woman and just posted that you should tell someone but I don't believe you're obliged to unless they directly ask. That said, I'm sure living a life as a trans woman with a very real threat of physical violence you'd want to minimise the chances of that by filtering out the guys who will get mad, even if you aren't morally obliged to. I said that for pre-op;; It is completely different situation than post-op in which case I would say you're not obligated to at all unless they ask directly or sometimes in a serious relationship depending on circumstances I still think it would be a courteous thing to do-- like a guy letting a woman know he has a micro penis or some other aspect that makes his genitals a lot different from an average person's. Personally, I love the clitoris, labia, g spot, and hitting the cervix.. I'd like to know if some of these parts were missing, same as I'd expect a woman to want to know if a man didn't have testicles. These parts wouldn't be missing. The argument is, that post-op, you can't tell the difference. C'mon. You know what the means. Having an operation doesn't make you a woman in many peoples eyes. Its unfair for a transgen to hide that, Even though I know they should have the need to hide it. A lot fear violence, others just don't say because its a matter of principle. But, Its simply not fair not telling people. And it's fair for trans people to be forced to disclose their medical history to everyone? THINK ABOUT IT PEOPLE! You finished that horrid shit of a transition and just want that part of your life to be behind you. You move to a new neighborhood and nobody knows you, everybody sees what they should see (a woman) and you're finally happy and ready to move on in life. But you want to start dating, we all yearn for love. Once one person knows you might as well be out to everyone. Now everyone who knows looks at you differently, you're not 'just a woman', you're now a trans woman. Your past has come back to haunt you when all you wanted to do is run away. You could have just kept it a secret, but they all said it wasn't fair to hide it. Now you have to go back to living in fear, fear that you'll lose your job or get assaulted. It's harder than you think to find a guy who will see passed your past. Please think about both sides when you try to argue fairness. Fairness is both parties having a complete understanding of the situation. Besides, why would you want to love someone who's transphobic, with your entire relationship being based on a lie.
His (if you are a trans woman I meant no offence, I genuinely don't know and assume tlers are male unless stated otherwise) point was that if you tell someone before anything happens and then they tell everyone else then you lose your gender identity in the eyes of the society which is shitty.
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On August 01 2013 07:11 Iyerbeth wrote:
This thread got depressing quickly.
As a real woman who also happens to have a medical history that includes a gender transition if there's any chance what so ever that I'll end up on a date with a guy I tell him before he even gets my phone number, because the alternative is extremely risky to my health in this society.
I also think it's only fair that I disclose it to potential partners anyway because I know some people have a problem with it and I don't want them to feel sexually uncomfortable/confused/taken advantage of(?) or anything else which their mind might throw at them. Wish I didn't have to, but that's not the world I live in right now. Hoping for brain transplant tech I guess, though I'm not sure even that would be sufficient for everyone.
On the bathroom issue, I'm not going to go in to a male bathroom because I'm not male and I'd certainly draw attention. For many years I simply tried to avoid them altogether because I was worried about using either, but there are times when you don't have a choice and you have to pick the most appropriate one. These days I don't really think about it, and I've never had anyone seem to care as it's all stalls anyway or I might quickly sort my appearance in the mirror like everyone else. Not really much to worry about there.
Edit: And as the discussion has moved on a little, all of this is based on how I have actually handled things not on how I might.
This is a very mature and realistic way to handle the situation.
On August 01 2013 07:17 fugs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 07:10 TheRealArtemis wrote:On August 01 2013 07:07 Zealos wrote:On August 01 2013 07:05 Rhaegal wrote:On August 01 2013 06:59 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:On August 01 2013 06:53 KwarK wrote:
I believe scarlett is a trans woman and just posted that you should tell someone but I don't believe you're obliged to unless they directly ask. That said, I'm sure living a life as a trans woman with a very real threat of physical violence you'd want to minimise the chances of that by filtering out the guys who will get mad, even if you aren't morally obliged to. I said that for pre-op;; It is completely different situation than post-op in which case I would say you're not obligated to at all unless they ask directly or sometimes in a serious relationship depending on circumstances I still think it would be a courteous thing to do-- like a guy letting a woman know he has a micro penis or some other aspect that makes his genitals a lot different from an average person's. Personally, I love the clitoris, labia, g spot, and hitting the cervix.. I'd like to know if some of these parts were missing, same as I'd expect a woman to want to know if a man didn't have testicles. These parts wouldn't be missing. The argument is, that post-op, you can't tell the difference. C'mon. You know what the means. Having an operation doesn't make you a woman in many peoples eyes. Its unfair for a transgen to hide that, Even though I know they should have the need to hide it. A lot fear violence, others just don't say because its a matter of principle. But, Its simply not fair not telling people. And it's fair for trans people to be forced to disclose their medical history to everyone? THINK ABOUT IT PEOPLE! You finished that horrid shit of a transition and just want that part of your life to be behind you. You move to a new neighborhood and nobody knows you, everybody sees what they should see (a woman) and you're finally happy and ready to move on in life. But you want to start dating, we all yearn for love. Once one person knows you might as well be out to everyone. Now everyone who knows looks at you differently, you're not 'just a woman', you're now a trans woman. Your past has come back to haunt you when all you wanted to do is run away. You could have just kept it a secret, but they all said it wasn't fair to hide it. Now you have to go back to living in fear, fear that you'll lose your job or get assaulted. It's harder than you think to find a guy who will see passed your past. Please think about both sides when you try to argue fairness.
I don't think it does you any good to pretend its all in the past and everything is peachy. As the above poster mentioned, someone realizing you're not a woman is enough to make some dudes go ballistic and do some real physical harm. So when do you tell the truth? When they ask for kids? Then you explain why not and you break up on the spot, losing years of yours and their lives.
I think that a sad truth to being a sexual minority is the fact that its really hard to find someone who is just right for you. My conversations with gay dudes basically come down to "Its almost entirely impossible to find someone I'd ever want to marry". Not that its fair or just or anything like that, but it does seem to be the sad truth. I'd imagine that people who are born into wheel chairs suffer similarly. Not discrimination/hate, but still hard to find someone.
I feel blessed to not have such difficulties and I hope that you are able to find someone who appreciates you in your entirety.
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On August 01 2013 07:20 RockIronrod wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 07:17 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:10 TheRealArtemis wrote:On August 01 2013 07:07 Zealos wrote:On August 01 2013 07:05 Rhaegal wrote:On August 01 2013 06:59 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:On August 01 2013 06:53 KwarK wrote:
I believe scarlett is a trans woman and just posted that you should tell someone but I don't believe you're obliged to unless they directly ask. That said, I'm sure living a life as a trans woman with a very real threat of physical violence you'd want to minimise the chances of that by filtering out the guys who will get mad, even if you aren't morally obliged to. I said that for pre-op;; It is completely different situation than post-op in which case I would say you're not obligated to at all unless they ask directly or sometimes in a serious relationship depending on circumstances I still think it would be a courteous thing to do-- like a guy letting a woman know he has a micro penis or some other aspect that makes his genitals a lot different from an average person's. Personally, I love the clitoris, labia, g spot, and hitting the cervix.. I'd like to know if some of these parts were missing, same as I'd expect a woman to want to know if a man didn't have testicles. These parts wouldn't be missing. The argument is, that post-op, you can't tell the difference. C'mon. You know what the means. Having an operation doesn't make you a woman in many peoples eyes. Its unfair for a transgen to hide that, Even though I know they should have the need to hide it. A lot fear violence, others just don't say because its a matter of principle. But, Its simply not fair not telling people. And it's fair for trans people to be forced to disclose their medical history to everyone? THINK ABOUT IT PEOPLE! You finished that horrid shit of a transition and just want that part of your life to be behind you. You move to a new neighborhood and nobody knows you, everybody sees what they should see (a woman) and you're finally happy and ready to move on in life. But you want to start dating, we all yearn for love. Once one person knows you might as well be out to everyone. Now everyone who knows looks at you differently, you're not 'just a woman', you're now a trans woman. Your past has come back to haunt you when all you wanted to do is run away. You could have just kept it a secret, but they all said it wasn't fair to hide it. Now you have to go back to living in fear, fear that you'll lose your job or get assaulted. It's harder than you think to find a guy who will see passed your past. Please think about both sides when you try to argue fairness. Fairness is both parties having a complete understanding of the situation. Besides, why would you want to love someone who's transphobic, with your entire relationship being based on a lie.
Personally? I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with a transphobic guy. You say "based on a lie" but we've been women for our entire lives. We didn't ask for this and I certainly don't like being this way. It shouldn't have to matter so much if someone is trans or not. I will not tell anyone I'm trans unless I'm seriously considering a relationship with them. If it's just a fling why do they have to know? Why am I suddenly a horrible person for it? It won't hurt anyone, in the end we both go our separate ways happily instead of one angry guy and one devastated girl.
It's not like I have aids or something, the penis is just an inverted vagina anyway (If you know how genitals grow in the womb) so all the surgery does is put it back to how it was before.
On August 01 2013 07:24 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 07:20 RockIronrod wrote:On August 01 2013 07:17 fugs wrote:On August 01 2013 07:10 TheRealArtemis wrote:On August 01 2013 07:07 Zealos wrote:On August 01 2013 07:05 Rhaegal wrote:On August 01 2013 06:59 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:On August 01 2013 06:53 KwarK wrote:
I believe scarlett is a trans woman and just posted that you should tell someone but I don't believe you're obliged to unless they directly ask. That said, I'm sure living a life as a trans woman with a very real threat of physical violence you'd want to minimise the chances of that by filtering out the guys who will get mad, even if you aren't morally obliged to. I said that for pre-op;; It is completely different situation than post-op in which case I would say you're not obligated to at all unless they ask directly or sometimes in a serious relationship depending on circumstances I still think it would be a courteous thing to do-- like a guy letting a woman know he has a micro penis or some other aspect that makes his genitals a lot different from an average person's. Personally, I love the clitoris, labia, g spot, and hitting the cervix.. I'd like to know if some of these parts were missing, same as I'd expect a woman to want to know if a man didn't have testicles. These parts wouldn't be missing. The argument is, that post-op, you can't tell the difference. C'mon. You know what the means. Having an operation doesn't make you a woman in many peoples eyes. Its unfair for a transgen to hide that, Even though I know they should have the need to hide it. A lot fear violence, others just don't say because its a matter of principle. But, Its simply not fair not telling people. And it's fair for trans people to be forced to disclose their medical history to everyone? THINK ABOUT IT PEOPLE! You finished that horrid shit of a transition and just want that part of your life to be behind you. You move to a new neighborhood and nobody knows you, everybody sees what they should see (a woman) and you're finally happy and ready to move on in life. But you want to start dating, we all yearn for love. Once one person knows you might as well be out to everyone. Now everyone who knows looks at you differently, you're not 'just a woman', you're now a trans woman. Your past has come back to haunt you when all you wanted to do is run away. You could have just kept it a secret, but they all said it wasn't fair to hide it. Now you have to go back to living in fear, fear that you'll lose your job or get assaulted. It's harder than you think to find a guy who will see passed your past. Please think about both sides when you try to argue fairness. Fairness is both parties having a complete understanding of the situation. Besides, why would you want to love someone who's transphobic, with your entire relationship being based on a lie. His (if you are a trans woman I meant no offence, I genuinely don't know and assume tlers are male unless stated otherwise) point was that if you tell someone before anything happens and then they tell everyone else then you lose your gender identity in the eyes of the society which is shitty.
"Her" is just fine, thanks <3
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EPT
