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On February 23 2013 17:22 Chairman Ray wrote:Oh, and I just remembered. According to TL Manpower, Scaramanga does Criminal and Civil Law in Austrailia. He would be the perfect one to contact for this. I knew TL manpower was useful!
Oh snap, I was going to check that but I ended up just assuming that there were no Australian laywers on TL to my memory. Nice catch there, maybe he can help out >_<
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On February 23 2013 17:22 Chairman Ray wrote:Oh, and I just remembered. According to TL Manpower, Scaramanga does Criminal and Civil Law in Austrailia. He would be the perfect one to contact for this. I knew TL manpower was useful!
That's an awesome suggestion! I didn't even know about TL manpower before this.
My deepest condolences to OP
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I would first of all like to offer my sincere condolences - I am sorry for your loss.
I will preface any further comments I make in this thread with saying that my knowledge of forensic medicine is limited to the course I had in medical school. I also do not have any actual insight in the case - I have not examined your mother, read her file or in fact know any of the actual specifics. This makes this impossible to say anything conclusive and the best I can offer is some advice/questions to think about.
I have never heard of any healthy adult suffocating from just sleeping on his/her stomach - I will search Pubmed to see if I can find anything regarding this. Is there any specific reason why you only have 2 days?
1) Get a lawyer, one with expertise in this field, to review the documents with you - they know your legal options a lot better than we do.
2) It should be possible to get a secondary opinion from another forensic expert - although I doubt this will actually do you much good.
3) What drug? Was it prescribed for her? Was it normal for her to take it? Was she in other way under influence of anything? - It is possible this drug caused a prolonging of the QTc (essentially disturbed the electrical circut of the heart) - which in turn can lead to sudden adult death - even without preexisting heart disease.
4) Was any imaging done? Specifically head/neck to look for any trauma
5) Any other signs of her having been in a fight? Any defensive wounds?
If you have any specific medical question I will try to answer them in the best way I can.
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Aren't you the same person whose family business was burned down a few months ago? I hope someone here can help with this, you deserve some good luck 
Can't imagine what you're going through, my heart goes out to you...
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On February 23 2013 17:33 imJealous wrote:Aren't you the same person whose family business was burned down a few months ago? I hope someone here can help with this, you deserve some good luck Can't imagine what you're going through, my heart goes out to you...
My god, I just looked at her posts and found the blog... just...wow.
This is sad beyond words Really just hope you can catch a break. Stay strong.
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Hi thank-you everyone for your support during this difficult time.
We were going to get a lawyer, but as it is just an inquest (not enough evidence to go to the DPP)
We are not rich by any means, and the cost for the inquest was $35000 up front, but as advised by the crown the only difference would be who was presenting the questions. We would of gladly paid the fee and done without many things FOREVER if it would of made a difference.
We have paid $5000 for one of the top lawyers in Sydney to read the brief and give advice. He has been worth every cent as the crown inquest time has gone from 1 day to now a week with additional witnesses added.
Our lawyer agrees with the crown that murder in this case is difficult to prove but advises that murder by omission is a possibility. However it relies strongly on the testimony of the parties that day. such as: that no CPR was done - ambulance workers. not giving people access to the apartment and telling them she was sleeping- neighbor as well as his recall of events.
Because this mans recall of events have changed consistently, the police advise even if he does now confess he cannot be held accountable or responsible for his statements. All it means is that he is a liar.
The main issue is time of death, because an exact time of death cannot be established. Exact time and not within an hour is not good enough for "evidence", and him sleeping for approx. 14 hours is a good defense.
The bed and the couch on which she died are in the same very small room directly in front of and facing each other.
i will take the time to rub out his name and our name, as too stop any slander case because this man loves to scam and sue.
Honestly this is just the surface of what this scum has done.
During the car incident, he stole my mothers belongings and tried to make me sign over the car legally to him for there safe return.
I don't know what someone has to do to be held accountable for his actions. He was ordered to pay back only the money that was taken (which he hasn't), given a small fine and put on a 2 year good behavior bond.
I have heard word on the street that he (previously claiming to be disabled, unable to walk unaided and back issues) is now fine, fit, buff and healthy as well as walking unaided. He bragged and through the great vine i found out he had stolen money from a hostel in which he was a manager and was fired- This is in breach of his good behavior.
I literally rang every hostel in NSW to try and track down the owners and beg them to submit a report (without a report the police cannot do anything) This is an ongoing and i am waiting now to hear back from the owner. If i have to drive there every night and grovel on my knees with a picture of my mother to get him to fill out a report i will.
until i edit the documents:
- It would be impossible for the amount of drugs (prescription) in her system to be an overdose
- the drugs in her system would of made her drowsy with poor motor skills.
- the cause of death is lack of oxygen, caused by face down suffocation.
- she did not have any heart complications
- she had bruising on her nose, lips, back of head and arm.
- she had a cut lip and grazed chin.
- she did not have any internal signs of objects obstructing her breathing pathway.
- nothing inside her mouth possible, sealed shut at the time: rigor mortis
unless i can find that this type of suffocation is to date unfounded and present that information to the crown, to then ask this question to the coroner during the inquest, sadly we don't have much of a case.
Thank-you again
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On February 23 2013 17:10 Plexa wrote:
There is nothing that the SC community can do to help prove or disprove this case. You need to go talk to a good lawyer as soon as you can. I understand your frustration at the situation, but this site is the wrong place to be looking for answers.
I hope that you're able to find justice, and I'm very sorry for the loss of your mother and the added pain that these events are putting you through.
Please
there is a chance, that someone knows someone that knows if this has happened to them.
I am not asking for a fix, or money.
I am asking if anyone has information about this type of death
so i can present these possibilities to the crown.
I am not experienced enough or have enough time to find where this type of information is by myself.
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I feel sorry for your loss and send you my deepest condolences.
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Australia285 Posts
If you need to present a medical case that coroner's assessment is unprecedented would it not be best to talk to a physician?
A specialist in respiratory system perhaps
I think they would be able to help more than a lawyer in at least giving cause for further inquiry
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On February 23 2013 17:13 Taekwon wrote:
Foremost, I offer my deepest condolences.
Secondly, be more specific on to what extent of funding is available for the investigation - this is in fact of paramount importance. I will assume the absolute worst case scenario in that you will receive absolutely no more help. In this instance, it is more efficient and beneficial to look at this from a different perspective. If you truly believe that the man has murdered your mother, than there is little to no point in looking for counter-examples or previous cases of SAD involving an adult woman without an object causing suffocation.
Third, it would be helpful to learn of where the event took place - simply because assuming this happened in Australia, criminal procedures are different from what I can ween out. With that in mind, if the coroner is absolutely unwilling to allow the body to be reexamined, I'm afraid of the conclusions themselves - either yours or the coroner's.
I apologize for what I type but I am skeptical of how the coroner could come to conclusion of a SAD caused by heart failure assuming what you suspect is true. I quote "My Mother was found with prescription drugs that would cause you to become drowsy. (autopsy findings)" and "Bruising on the back of head and arm." What level of police force was in charge of the initial investigation? From what you've said, the man should have left an armada of fingerprints on both furniture in the room and your mother's body. I am also basing the logic that the man is careless and would not have considered gloves because 1. he has criminal history and 2. he was CAUGHT drinking and laughing as you've said - this is the best way to proceed given that you appear to not have the luxury of considering any other scenario. Furthermore, you need to exploit the fact that your mother's bank account was emptied. If the account is not shared with a family member then you are at a disadvantage however. You need to keep as close an eye on the suspected man as possible - whatever evidence you're citing when he was found drinking and laughing and emptying his bank account, follow that trail and have a constant tab on his location. If possible, confront him with other people while secretly recording. Anything at all will help.
Finally, do you have any access whatsoever to the room of the event? If so, I would recommend picking up some luminol available online and as much graphite dust and tape as possible. Again assuming that you will be receiving no more investigative help, procuring as much evidence as possible no matter how insignificant it may seem.
Due to the lack of info and short time I have, this is the best I could do but the biggest problem is that I'm not sure how Australia's criminal/investigative/prosecution procedures work. If worse comes to worse, you need to keep records of everything and seek a humble prosecutor's office - but hopefully it will not come to that.
Good luck.
It was SAD by suffocation.
there was no heart failure in the findings.
im trying to find out if a death occurred by self suffocation previously.
not a court case of self suffocation
but documentation of self suffocation by face down sleeping.
i hope that makes sense.
We are in Australia yes.
Funding is in reference to people being assigned to the case.
He was given a $400 fine and 2 year good behavior bond.
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I have not found any cases reported on Pubmed of asphyxiation of a healthy adult by simply sleeping on the stomach without any force applied (either by bed or otherwise). I have searched for 15 minutes with terms such as apshyxiation, adults, sleep - I have gotten hits about post-traumatic swelling causing asphyxiation, epilepsy causing asphyxiation, heck even a guy getting caught in a folding bed. It is of course impossible to rule out the occurrence and once again, forensic medicine is not my specialty, nor do I know any of the details
EDIT:
That includes intoxicated adults.
EDIT2: I should state that the above is assuming she really slept flat on her stomach - there are reports of intoxicated people suffocating after sleeping in other positions:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18761306 <- Best article (PM me if you do not have access)
Other cases:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20938323
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20851361
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On February 23 2013 17:33 Ghostcom wrote:
I would first of all like to offer my sincere condolences - I am sorry for your loss.
I will preface any further comments I make in this thread with saying that my knowledge of forensic medicine is limited to the course I had in medical school. I also do not have any actual insight in the case - I have not examined your mother, read her file or in fact know any of the actual specifics. This makes this impossible to say anything conclusive and the best I can offer is some advice/questions to think about.
I have never heard of any healthy adult suffocating from just sleeping on his/her stomach - I will search Pubmed to see if I can find anything regarding this. Is there any specific reason why you only have 2 days?
1) Get a lawyer, one with expertise in this field, to review the documents with you - they know your legal options a lot better than we do.
2) It should be possible to get a secondary opinion from another forensic expert - although I doubt this will actually do you much good.
3) What drug? Was it prescribed for her? Was it normal for her to take it? Was she in other way under influence of anything? - It is possible this drug caused a prolonging of the QTc (essentially disturbed the electrical circut of the heart) - which in turn can lead to sudden adult death - even without preexisting heart disease.
4) Was any imaging done? Specifically head/neck to look for any trauma
5) Any other signs of her having been in a fight? Any defensive wounds?
If you have any specific medical question I will try to answer them in the best way I can.
Thankyou this helped out a lot
I have never heard of any healthy adult suffocating from just sleeping on his/her stomach - I will search Pubmed to see if I can find anything regarding this. Is there any specific reason why you only have 2 days?
Sorry for not being more clear.
the inquest is in 2 days. it is when we can express our final concerns and submit questions to sway the possibility of evidence in favor of going to DPP for a trial.
Currently he cannot be charged as it needs to be first approved that there is sufficient case that a murder took place.
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On February 23 2013 18:23 Ghostcom wrote:I have not found any cases reported on Pubmed of asphyxiation of a healthy adult by simply sleeping on the stomach without any force applied (either by bed or otherwise). I have searched for 15 minutes with terms such as apshyxiation, adults, sleep - I have gotten hits about post-traumatic swelling causing asphyxiation, epilepsy causing asphyxiation, heck even a guy getting caught in a folding bed. It is of course impossible to rule out the occurrence and once again, forensic medicine is not my specialty, nor do I know any of the details EDIT: That includes intoxicated adults. EDIT2: I should state that the above is assuming she really slept flat on her stomach - there are reports of intoxicated people suffocating after sleeping in other positions: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18761306 <- Best article (PM me if you do not have access) Other cases: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20938323http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20851361
your post made me smile about the folding bed.
i'm glad there are no other incidents.
this may be enough for us to get a trial. i am just trying to confirm my findings on Monday.
The best proof i have about this is no proof.
but even if this event is also highly unlikely, and not common is also a good thing.
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Goddamn, you again. =/
Just to clarify, am I reading this correctly that the coroner stated that she lied on her stomach and suffocated because... she couldn't breathe through her mouth or nose?
Not even heroin addicts or people taking any kind of heavy medication sleep on their nose and mouth. I have seen people fall unconscious onto their stomach but the head always turned sideways. If I was in your position I would most likely try to find a doctor who can state that dieing because "you were sleeping on your nose".
Simply because I remember the other story, is there any relation between those cases? How was that man related to your mother? Was he stalking her, in love with her, anything that can be seen as a motive? Who did he talk to on the phone?
What was the coroners explanation for the blood and her wounds?
Edit: Was her nose broken?
Edit 2: Which prescription drugs exactly? Were they ones she took regularly and/or was it the normal dosage or not?
Edit 3: Proving that there was "no case like this" is almost impossible and even IF you find such a case it is irrelevant to this case. Try and find a forensic or another coroner that can argue that - especially under those drugs - she can't physically make the effort to turn her head into a position that makes her suffocate. Furthermore, even IF she can assume that position that she wasn't overweight enough to make this happen and/or argue the physical impossibility of keeping your head that way - unless force is applied.
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Did you hire private investigator? I know for once that in our country there are many very capable private investigators who have been on the force for over 30 years before going private and they are quite affordable and definitely possess a lot of knowledge and contacts with other experts in criminology.
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On February 23 2013 18:37 -CheekyDuck- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 18:23 Ghostcom wrote:I have not found any cases reported on Pubmed of asphyxiation of a healthy adult by simply sleeping on the stomach without any force applied (either by bed or otherwise). I have searched for 15 minutes with terms such as apshyxiation, adults, sleep - I have gotten hits about post-traumatic swelling causing asphyxiation, epilepsy causing asphyxiation, heck even a guy getting caught in a folding bed. It is of course impossible to rule out the occurrence and once again, forensic medicine is not my specialty, nor do I know any of the details EDIT: That includes intoxicated adults. EDIT2: I should state that the above is assuming she really slept flat on her stomach - there are reports of intoxicated people suffocating after sleeping in other positions: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18761306 <- Best article (PM me if you do not have access) Other cases: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20938323http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20851361 your post made me smile about the folding bed. i'm glad there are no other incidents. this may be enough for us to get a trial. i am just trying to confirm my findings on Monday. The best proof i have about this is no proof. but even if this event is also highly unlikely, and not common is also a good thing.
Even if you can contest the coroners finding I do not know how much you will gain. There is still the possibility of it being a sudden arrhythmic death caused by a QT-interval prolongation as a consequence of the drug (provided it is one of the drugs that can cause this) - even in therapeutic ranges and without pre-existing heart-condition this is a very real possibility.
But at least you will get them to take another look which could possibly provide you with a better explanation.
I wish you the very best of luck and hope you will be able to find some peace whatever the outcome may be.
EDIT: SAD by prolonged QT-interval can not be proven post-mortem conclusively - it is exclusion diagnosis as far as I recall.
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If i were you, i would have immediately linked the arsonist of your family owned tattoo parlor with this guy. There is no way for 2 tragedies to happen within a span of 3 months. Try to ask his friends of he suffered burn wounds at december. If he did, at least the case will be postponed, giving you more time to find more evidence.
If he was the one/hired people to arson your family business, it would make more sense for this to have happened, giving him a motive to kill. Probably tried to extort money from your mother, failed, arsoned your family business. Tried again, this time face to face in the crime scene, sedating her to stop her from struggling, got rejected again, but this time with the ultimate price paid. Stole her bank card and tried to make you give him her car.
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I'd like to know where the body was when it was found, and what position it was in. Other details are nice to know also.
Aside from that, I think one of the most important things is a motive for the accused; there's nothing mentioned. Being a dick is one thing, but that doesn't mean they're a murderer.
unless i can find that this type of suffocation is to date unfounded and present that information to the crown, to then ask this question to the coroner during the inquest, sadly we don't have much of a case.
Uhh.... shouldn't it be the crown's duty to first claim/prove that IS a reasonable/founded scenario?
Right now it sounds like you're looking for a lack of something, AKA negative evidence. That shouldn't be how things work legally, because it's invalid logic. If someone says "green crows exist", the valid logic isn't for a challenger to find every crow in the world and examine if it's green; the valid logic is for the person making the claim to justify the claim, such as by demonstrating a green crow.
after her death he stole her car and emptied her bank accounts How long after, and how is this known? What's his explanation of this? Did he report the death?
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My condolences.
In Norway, it's sometimes very effective to go to the tabloid media with cases such as these. The tabloids love any story that can be spun as a "personal tragedy" story and they often write about them. Many of those gain a considerable amount of attention and result in proceedings being reopened after they were originally shut. If you were in Norway, our tabloids would have a field day with "the girl whose family's business was burnt down, mother killed and case neglected".
However, Norway's a small country with only 5 million inhabitants and I, personally, hate the fact using the media as a tool in such a way can be so effective (although I am, of course, pleased that cases get resolved). I could easily imagine that "circumventing" the legal system by using the tabloids might be frowned upon by the public in any other country, or simply be utterly ineffective in a country larger than Norway. I would suggest that you consult with other Australians, as to how they view any such action before you might decide to do it. You seem somewhat desperate (although I certainly understand why!) to get the case underway, so you may have lost all objectivity as to which actions are productive or not. Just because there was an option (this one) in a thread, doesn't mean it's a good option, so listen to your fellow Aussies if they tell you that this is definitely not the way to do things in Australia.
Moreover, it may be a huge burden to be a "public figure" if you do decide to contact the media. People are usually very rude on the internet and you may see lots of comments that are unsympathetic to you or even hostile. You should consider if that is something you're able to handle.
I'm very sorry if this post comes across as blunt or cynical and I don't mean to be disrespectful in any way. I simply want to be clear on the pros and cons and that results in a somewhat blunt language. Also, this is not an encouragement to use the media, but I simply wanted you to have all the options available to you and this option was not mentioned yet. Of course, starting with all the options, means you need to weed out the bad ones and this may just be one of the bad ones. However, we don't know that for sure until some other Australians have weighed in.
I sincerely hope you get this sorted out!
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EPT
