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On January 27 2013 05:43 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2013 05:40 AmericanNightmare wrote:On January 27 2013 05:16 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 04:52 KwarK wrote:
How is a slave not an economic asset? It's not all they are, they're also people, but it is insanity to deny that a slave is an economic asset. It's a person whose labour is controlled by you. Labour is an economic asset.
I need to stay out of the general forum. I never go on political or philosophical forums because I get sucked in.
Yes, you are correct in that human labor is a resource. However the American Civil War wasn't fought over human labor. That labor was going to happen either way and it did in fact happen both before and after the war. The North didn't want to deny the South human labor, which was the resource.
The war was fought regarding human rights, whether or not it was legal for a certain group of people to work for nothing and have no legal rights.
Human rights are not a physical resource. I hope that makes sense. It doesn't make sense because much of what you say is incorrect. But this thread isn't about why the American Civil War was fought. EDIT: I just realized you may not have the historical knowledge if you grew up in the UK to know that slavery in America was far more about racism and racial superiority than getting free labor. Slavery in America was far different and darker than slavery in ancient Rome for example.
And that is why it was about human rights, not resources. Southern plantation owners could easily afford to pay (and did after the war) people to pick crops without it adversely effecting profits. And the majority of people who willingly fought for the South in the war were not slave owners. Yet they still held (and even in many places in the South, hold today) racist beliefs.
Humans who spread misinformation are the real plague to this planet. They spew they filth and those who aren't properly informed or the dumb easily fall for it. The cure to this plague are smart people or even people with the ability to read, who are willing to correct the filth spat out by the plague. Someone who believes that American slavery was "darker" then Roman Slavery is.... Did you grow up in the South?
Yes I did, but what does that have to do with anything? Because I was raised in the place where the slavery had taken place means I support it? Or does it mean that because I'm from the South I have to be stupid about my history? I was raised in the South but that does not mean don't have more knowledge about the dark time in my nations history. I'm going to guess you're from the North because you give me that "I know everything so there is nothing you can teach me" feeling. Being from the South does allow me to know more about the subject more then you
Show nested quote +Roman slavery wasn't racist, anyone could be a slave. Slaves were generally people who were on the losing side of any given war. American slavery was blatantly racist, only African Americans were slaves. The ancients had no sense of racism. (They did have prejudices against foreigners, but this was based on nationality, not race.) In America, very few slaves went free in comparison to their numbers, while in Rome many slaves ended up freeing themselves. The freed slaves in Rome could climb the social ladder and often did, becoming businessmen, craftsmen, or government officials.
In America it was much more difficult, as race and lack of education worked against the freed slave. How long did it take America to elect a black president after freeing the slaves? The ancient slaves always had the hope of freedom, either from their owners or by buying their freedom. Most American slaves did not have this advantage. It is well known and documented that African Americans were dehumanized and treated extremely cruel compared to Roman slaves. In Rome skilled or educated slaves were allowed to earn their own money, which they could eventually use to buy their freedom.
The racist undertones that dominated American slavery and came to define it and Southern culture clearly are far darker than Roman slavery. Slaves were people in Rome that could redeem themselves. African American slaves could not change their skin color and had no way to redeem themselves. Read up on it for yourself, because you're simply denying history.
Romans today don't look back with racist feelings when it comes to slavery in the past. Southerners do. I'm not going to get into this anymore than that, I feel like I am talking to a Holocaust denier...
So.. It's cool for us as Americans to hate Canadians or British because they aren't Americans, but we just can't hate people because they are a different color.
On January 27 2013 06:57 BronzeKnee wrote:
There is nothing left for me to argue or learn from here...
It appears I was correct. All I ask is you learn the real reason behind the American Civil War... and stop lying to those from other parts of the world.
I'd like to change my original opinion about who are plagues...
People who spread misinformation or refuse to learn are the real plague to this planet.
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On January 27 2013 08:08 imallinson wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2013 08:05 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 08:03 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 08:00 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 07:59 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 07:55 KwarK wrote:On January 27 2013 07:54 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 07:39 BronzeKnee wrote:
To me, logically it makes complete sense and because most scholars agree I am.
That is terrible argument. Just because something logically makes sense doesn't make it true. I could give you a long list of things that don't logically make sense but is true or makes logical sense but isn't true. And you keep saying that most scholars agree with you doesn't make that more true. They also don't agree with him for what it's worth. He got that idea after googling what he believed to be true, finding Ryan Stevens and taking Ryan Steven's generic opening paragraph massively out of context and then presenting Ryan Stevens as somewhere in between Stephen Hawking and God. Yeah I saw that. I'm just laughing at the fact that he is still claiming it is based on a student and a law professor. That article is based on student. The book is from a law professor. No claiming, it is. Yes but he is a law professor not a history professor. It's like saying climate change isn't happening because one geology professor says so. My objective here is to give you enough sources so that you accept that American slavery was harsher than Roman slavery, and that it is common knowledge, which I know. The sources can come from anywhere as long as they are reliable. Perhaps the best evidence for what I am arguing is to compare Roman slave law to America slave law. Read the article, he shows the clear distinctions of why it is more harsh. Except sources can't just come from anywhere. If you source something from a student or from a professor in a different field it doesn't add much credibility to your argument.
Perhaps the best evidence for what I am arguing is to compare Roman slave law to America slave law. And who better to consult that a law professor?
On January 27 2013 08:09 AmericanNightmare wrote:
All I ask is you learn the real reason behind the American Civil War... and stop lying to those from other parts of the world.
I'd like to change my original opinion about who are plagues...
Last time I went down South, I flew into Norfolk Virginia... and what was in the airport, a case displaying Confederate uniforms, and bunch of Confederate Flags.
Talking to a Southerner who believes that the war wasn't about slavery is like talking to a Holocaust denier, it is useless. I've tried it. I already gave the history constitutionally in this thread and if you look at what happened in Congress you'll realize what it was about. There was no war of Northern Aggression. The South fired first, because they didn't want to lose their slaves, they didn't even care for the democratic process, Lincoln wasn't even on the ballot in Southern states. To argue it wasn't about slavery is beyond ridiculous.
End of story.
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United States42668 Posts
On January 27 2013 08:09 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2013 08:08 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 08:05 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 08:03 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 08:00 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 07:59 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 07:55 KwarK wrote:On January 27 2013 07:54 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 07:39 BronzeKnee wrote:
To me, logically it makes complete sense and because most scholars agree I am.
That is terrible argument. Just because something logically makes sense doesn't make it true. I could give you a long list of things that don't logically make sense but is true or makes logical sense but isn't true. And you keep saying that most scholars agree with you doesn't make that more true. They also don't agree with him for what it's worth. He got that idea after googling what he believed to be true, finding Ryan Stevens and taking Ryan Steven's generic opening paragraph massively out of context and then presenting Ryan Stevens as somewhere in between Stephen Hawking and God. Yeah I saw that. I'm just laughing at the fact that he is still claiming it is based on a student and a law professor. That article is based on student. The book is from a law professor. No claiming, it is. Yes but he is a law professor not a history professor. It's like saying climate change isn't happening because one geology professor says so. My objective here is to give you enough sources so that you accept that American slavery was harsher than Roman slavery, and that it is common knowledge, which I know. The sources can come from anywhere as long as they are reliable. Perhaps the best evidence for what I am arguing is to compare Roman slave law to America slave law. Read the article, he shows the clear distinctions of why it is more harsh. Except sources can't just come from anywhere. If you source something from a student or from a professor in a different field it doesn't add much credibility to your argument. Perhaps the best evidence for what I am arguing is to compare Roman slave law to America slave law. And who better to consult that a law professor?
Given the limitations of the evidence involved a historian might help. Then they could, you know, actually know stuff. Or at least tell you that, to be honest, we don't really know very much about the lives of slaves and that which we do know either comes from their masters and is theoretical in nature or comes from slaves who were in no way representative of the majority of slaves. Unfortunately your average slave was left pretty much no historical footprint which is what I keep telling you, despite Ryan fucking Stevens.
Also you're arguing about the overall cruelty of the system which is a matter for historical comparison and have only now, after googling and finding an article written by a legal expert, decided that it is a matter of law. While your taste in experts has improved (the previous guy was a random student) you've still not found an expert in history and your attempt to change the subject after you found an expert in a different subject has not gone unnoticed.
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with all first world countries having negative population growth due to basically people wanting / having less children
Combined with tight immigration first world countries are going to start having problems supporting their aging population when we simply don't have the number of younger people alive to provide services etc
So contrary to what Attenborough says we don't need to worry about sustainable population growth because apart from primarily India the rest of the world's population is shrinking
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On January 27 2013 08:12 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2013 08:09 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 08:08 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 08:05 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 08:03 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 08:00 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 07:59 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 07:55 KwarK wrote:On January 27 2013 07:54 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 07:39 BronzeKnee wrote:
To me, logically it makes complete sense and because most scholars agree I am.
That is terrible argument. Just because something logically makes sense doesn't make it true. I could give you a long list of things that don't logically make sense but is true or makes logical sense but isn't true. And you keep saying that most scholars agree with you doesn't make that more true. They also don't agree with him for what it's worth. He got that idea after googling what he believed to be true, finding Ryan Stevens and taking Ryan Steven's generic opening paragraph massively out of context and then presenting Ryan Stevens as somewhere in between Stephen Hawking and God. Yeah I saw that. I'm just laughing at the fact that he is still claiming it is based on a student and a law professor. That article is based on student. The book is from a law professor. No claiming, it is. Yes but he is a law professor not a history professor. It's like saying climate change isn't happening because one geology professor says so. My objective here is to give you enough sources so that you accept that American slavery was harsher than Roman slavery, and that it is common knowledge, which I know. The sources can come from anywhere as long as they are reliable. Perhaps the best evidence for what I am arguing is to compare Roman slave law to America slave law. Read the article, he shows the clear distinctions of why it is more harsh. Except sources can't just come from anywhere. If you source something from a student or from a professor in a different field it doesn't add much credibility to your argument. Perhaps the best evidence for what I am arguing is to compare Roman slave law to America slave law. And who better to consult that a law professor? Given the limitations of the evidence involved a historian might help. Then they could, you know, actually know stuff. Or at least tell you that, to be honest, we don't really know very much about the lives of slaves and that which we do know either comes from their masters and is theoretical in nature or comes from slaves who were in no way representative of the majority of slaves. Unfortunately your average slave was left pretty much no historical footprint which is what I keep telling you, despite Ryan fucking Stevens.
Read the source.
It is so evident why slavery was worse. And you meant is "despite most scholars." I emailed Paul Burke, awaiting his response...
I'm doubt that you'll listen to anyone. You quote Tacitus then turn around and say that slaves left no historical footprint and we can't gauge what was worse. Either we have the information or we don't which is it?
If you truly believe there is no way to know, then logic is all we can go on, and that is strongest argument.
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United Kingdom3482 Posts
On January 27 2013 08:09 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2013 08:08 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 08:05 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 08:03 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 08:00 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 07:59 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 07:55 KwarK wrote:On January 27 2013 07:54 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 07:39 BronzeKnee wrote:
To me, logically it makes complete sense and because most scholars agree I am.
That is terrible argument. Just because something logically makes sense doesn't make it true. I could give you a long list of things that don't logically make sense but is true or makes logical sense but isn't true. And you keep saying that most scholars agree with you doesn't make that more true. They also don't agree with him for what it's worth. He got that idea after googling what he believed to be true, finding Ryan Stevens and taking Ryan Steven's generic opening paragraph massively out of context and then presenting Ryan Stevens as somewhere in between Stephen Hawking and God. Yeah I saw that. I'm just laughing at the fact that he is still claiming it is based on a student and a law professor. That article is based on student. The book is from a law professor. No claiming, it is. Yes but he is a law professor not a history professor. It's like saying climate change isn't happening because one geology professor says so. My objective here is to give you enough sources so that you accept that American slavery was harsher than Roman slavery, and that it is common knowledge, which I know. The sources can come from anywhere as long as they are reliable. Perhaps the best evidence for what I am arguing is to compare Roman slave law to America slave law. Read the article, he shows the clear distinctions of why it is more harsh. Except sources can't just come from anywhere. If you source something from a student or from a professor in a different field it doesn't add much credibility to your argument. Perhaps the best evidence for what I am arguing is to compare Roman slave law to America slave law. And who better to consult that a law professor?
Except that the slave laws doesn't give you a full picture of slavery. Its a much more complex issue than saying which laws were worse.
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On January 27 2013 08:19 imallinson wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2013 08:09 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 08:08 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 08:05 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 08:03 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 08:00 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 07:59 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 07:55 KwarK wrote:On January 27 2013 07:54 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 07:39 BronzeKnee wrote:
To me, logically it makes complete sense and because most scholars agree I am.
That is terrible argument. Just because something logically makes sense doesn't make it true. I could give you a long list of things that don't logically make sense but is true or makes logical sense but isn't true. And you keep saying that most scholars agree with you doesn't make that more true. They also don't agree with him for what it's worth. He got that idea after googling what he believed to be true, finding Ryan Stevens and taking Ryan Steven's generic opening paragraph massively out of context and then presenting Ryan Stevens as somewhere in between Stephen Hawking and God. Yeah I saw that. I'm just laughing at the fact that he is still claiming it is based on a student and a law professor. That article is based on student. The book is from a law professor. No claiming, it is. Yes but he is a law professor not a history professor. It's like saying climate change isn't happening because one geology professor says so. My objective here is to give you enough sources so that you accept that American slavery was harsher than Roman slavery, and that it is common knowledge, which I know. The sources can come from anywhere as long as they are reliable. Perhaps the best evidence for what I am arguing is to compare Roman slave law to America slave law. Read the article, he shows the clear distinctions of why it is more harsh. Except sources can't just come from anywhere. If you source something from a student or from a professor in a different field it doesn't add much credibility to your argument. Perhaps the best evidence for what I am arguing is to compare Roman slave law to America slave law. And who better to consult that a law professor? Except that the slave laws doesn't give you a full picture of slavery. Its a much more complex issue than saying which laws were worse.
Of course. So now let's look at the fact that anyone could be a slave in Roman times, and that slaves were uniquely African American in America. And let's look at the revolting racism that came out of slavery in America and resides in America today...
Piece it together. Apparently the name calling is over and the real work has begun.
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United States42668 Posts
On January 27 2013 08:15 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2013 08:12 KwarK wrote:On January 27 2013 08:09 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 08:08 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 08:05 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 08:03 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 08:00 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 07:59 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 07:55 KwarK wrote:On January 27 2013 07:54 imallinson wrote:
[quote]
That is terrible argument. Just because something logically makes sense doesn't make it true. I could give you a long list of things that don't logically make sense but is true or makes logical sense but isn't true. And you keep saying that most scholars agree with you doesn't make that more true. They also don't agree with him for what it's worth. He got that idea after googling what he believed to be true, finding Ryan Stevens and taking Ryan Steven's generic opening paragraph massively out of context and then presenting Ryan Stevens as somewhere in between Stephen Hawking and God. Yeah I saw that. I'm just laughing at the fact that he is still claiming it is based on a student and a law professor. That article is based on student. The book is from a law professor. No claiming, it is. Yes but he is a law professor not a history professor. It's like saying climate change isn't happening because one geology professor says so. My objective here is to give you enough sources so that you accept that American slavery was harsher than Roman slavery, and that it is common knowledge, which I know. The sources can come from anywhere as long as they are reliable. Perhaps the best evidence for what I am arguing is to compare Roman slave law to America slave law. Read the article, he shows the clear distinctions of why it is more harsh. Except sources can't just come from anywhere. If you source something from a student or from a professor in a different field it doesn't add much credibility to your argument. Perhaps the best evidence for what I am arguing is to compare Roman slave law to America slave law. And who better to consult that a law professor? Given the limitations of the evidence involved a historian might help. Then they could, you know, actually know stuff. Or at least tell you that, to be honest, we don't really know very much about the lives of slaves and that which we do know either comes from their masters and is theoretical in nature or comes from slaves who were in no way representative of the majority of slaves. Unfortunately your average slave was left pretty much no historical footprint which is what I keep telling you, despite Ryan fucking Stevens. Read the source. It is so evident why slavery was worse. And you meant is "despite most scholars." I emailed Paul Burke, awaiting his response...
I contend that racism was probably not a significant factor in the short, brutal lives of someone being worked to death for economic benefit of another and that the Roman slave and American slaves would, when working in similar environments, have similar experiences. More pressing concerns would have been things like the machinery of the sugar press trapping a limb and tearing it off. I also contend that I cannot prove this, nor that it can be proved otherwise, as there is insufficient historical record for the Roman slaves. My argument is that there are no primary sources written by Roman agricultural or industrial slaves, that the primary sources we do have by slaves are by slaves whose experience is alien to that of the average slave and that the primary sources we have regarding slaves are do not reflect the average experience of a slave.
Just so you know what to tell him you're disagreeing with.
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United States42668 Posts
On January 27 2013 08:20 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2013 08:19 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 08:09 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 08:08 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 08:05 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 08:03 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 08:00 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 07:59 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 07:55 KwarK wrote:On January 27 2013 07:54 imallinson wrote:
[quote]
That is terrible argument. Just because something logically makes sense doesn't make it true. I could give you a long list of things that don't logically make sense but is true or makes logical sense but isn't true. And you keep saying that most scholars agree with you doesn't make that more true. They also don't agree with him for what it's worth. He got that idea after googling what he believed to be true, finding Ryan Stevens and taking Ryan Steven's generic opening paragraph massively out of context and then presenting Ryan Stevens as somewhere in between Stephen Hawking and God. Yeah I saw that. I'm just laughing at the fact that he is still claiming it is based on a student and a law professor. That article is based on student. The book is from a law professor. No claiming, it is. Yes but he is a law professor not a history professor. It's like saying climate change isn't happening because one geology professor says so. My objective here is to give you enough sources so that you accept that American slavery was harsher than Roman slavery, and that it is common knowledge, which I know. The sources can come from anywhere as long as they are reliable. Perhaps the best evidence for what I am arguing is to compare Roman slave law to America slave law. Read the article, he shows the clear distinctions of why it is more harsh. Except sources can't just come from anywhere. If you source something from a student or from a professor in a different field it doesn't add much credibility to your argument. Perhaps the best evidence for what I am arguing is to compare Roman slave law to America slave law. And who better to consult that a law professor? Except that the slave laws doesn't give you a full picture of slavery. Its a much more complex issue than saying which laws were worse. Of course. So now let's look at the fact that anyone could be a slave in Roman times, and that slaves were uniquely African American in America. And let's look at the revolting racism that came out of slavery in America and resides in America today... Piece it together. Apparently the name calling is over and the real work has begun.
Contrary to your strange American worldview racism is not the worst thing that can happen to anyone ever. I'd rather be called a nigger than forced to do backbreaking labour in malarial swamps for 14 hours a day until my early death. You really think that's what the slaves were upset about? Get some perspective. You wouldn't be pissed about being treated as subhuman on the basis of race and present a list of acceptable reasons for being treated as subhuman, for example being a civilian of a defeated barbarian tribe. You'd mainly just be pissed about being treated as subhuman.
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United Kingdom3482 Posts
On January 27 2013 08:20 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2013 08:19 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 08:09 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 08:08 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 08:05 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 08:03 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 08:00 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 07:59 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 07:55 KwarK wrote:On January 27 2013 07:54 imallinson wrote:
[quote]
That is terrible argument. Just because something logically makes sense doesn't make it true. I could give you a long list of things that don't logically make sense but is true or makes logical sense but isn't true. And you keep saying that most scholars agree with you doesn't make that more true. They also don't agree with him for what it's worth. He got that idea after googling what he believed to be true, finding Ryan Stevens and taking Ryan Steven's generic opening paragraph massively out of context and then presenting Ryan Stevens as somewhere in between Stephen Hawking and God. Yeah I saw that. I'm just laughing at the fact that he is still claiming it is based on a student and a law professor. That article is based on student. The book is from a law professor. No claiming, it is. Yes but he is a law professor not a history professor. It's like saying climate change isn't happening because one geology professor says so. My objective here is to give you enough sources so that you accept that American slavery was harsher than Roman slavery, and that it is common knowledge, which I know. The sources can come from anywhere as long as they are reliable. Perhaps the best evidence for what I am arguing is to compare Roman slave law to America slave law. Read the article, he shows the clear distinctions of why it is more harsh. Except sources can't just come from anywhere. If you source something from a student or from a professor in a different field it doesn't add much credibility to your argument. Perhaps the best evidence for what I am arguing is to compare Roman slave law to America slave law. And who better to consult that a law professor? Except that the slave laws doesn't give you a full picture of slavery. Its a much more complex issue than saying which laws were worse. Of course. So now let's look at the fact that anyone could be a slave in Roman times, and that slaves were uniquely African American in America. And let's look at the revolting racism that came out of slavery in America and resides in America today... Piece it together. Apparently the name calling is over and the real work has begun.
Except I don't buy your argument that the racist element of slavery makes it worse. The slaves don't give a shit why they are slaves. Racism was used as an excuse to avoid religious doctrine nothing more. You could argue that the racism makes the time after the abolition of slavery worse but not the actual slavery itself.
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On January 27 2013 08:23 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2013 08:15 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 08:12 KwarK wrote:On January 27 2013 08:09 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 08:08 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 08:05 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 08:03 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 08:00 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 07:59 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 07:55 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
They also don't agree with him for what it's worth. He got that idea after googling what he believed to be true, finding Ryan Stevens and taking Ryan Steven's generic opening paragraph massively out of context and then presenting Ryan Stevens as somewhere in between Stephen Hawking and God. Yeah I saw that. I'm just laughing at the fact that he is still claiming it is based on a student and a law professor. That article is based on student. The book is from a law professor. No claiming, it is. Yes but he is a law professor not a history professor. It's like saying climate change isn't happening because one geology professor says so. My objective here is to give you enough sources so that you accept that American slavery was harsher than Roman slavery, and that it is common knowledge, which I know. The sources can come from anywhere as long as they are reliable. Perhaps the best evidence for what I am arguing is to compare Roman slave law to America slave law. Read the article, he shows the clear distinctions of why it is more harsh. Except sources can't just come from anywhere. If you source something from a student or from a professor in a different field it doesn't add much credibility to your argument. Perhaps the best evidence for what I am arguing is to compare Roman slave law to America slave law. And who better to consult that a law professor? Given the limitations of the evidence involved a historian might help. Then they could, you know, actually know stuff. Or at least tell you that, to be honest, we don't really know very much about the lives of slaves and that which we do know either comes from their masters and is theoretical in nature or comes from slaves who were in no way representative of the majority of slaves. Unfortunately your average slave was left pretty much no historical footprint which is what I keep telling you, despite Ryan fucking Stevens. Read the source. It is so evident why slavery was worse. And you meant is "despite most scholars." I emailed Paul Burke, awaiting his response... I contend that racism was probably not a significant factor in the short, brutal lives of someone being worked to death.
Here is where growing up in the United States makes a big difference. You are drilled with history and learn of the suffering that African Americans went through, not just because they were slaves, but because they have a different color of skin. I'm sure the work conditions were similar. But the racism made it worse, and that racism it is still incredibly persistent in the South today.
Because all slaves were black, and just about all blacks were slave it deeply ingrained prejudices into American society about blacks, and people tried to justify why blacks were enslaved over time. In fact, freed slaves or blacks born free face racism all the time.
"...In the notes on the State of Virginia, (Thomas) Jefferson goes on and on for many pages about the inferiority of blacks. He suggests on one hand that they mate with orangutans in Africa but, he suggests that they are also always after white women. He says that blacks are not as smart as whites, that they have no skills in poetry, in music. He says that they can never accomplish what whites can accomplish. He compares Roman slaves to black slaves and says Roman slaves did all these wonderful things but that's 'cause they were white. He also says that blacks are brave, as brave as whites, maybe even braver, but he says that's because they lack forethought so they can't see the causes or the consequences of their actions. This is very damaging, horrible ideas and they are used over and over again in the 1840's and 50's by the defenders of slavery to argue in favor of continuing slavery. Jefferson justifies slavery, in fact, by arguing that blacks are inferior to whites on almost all levels. Furthermore, throughout his life he expresses fear of miscegenation, race-mixing. He is obsessed with the question. He is also obsessed with the problem of free blacks. He thinks if you ever end slavery, you must transport all blacks out of the United States. This is impossible to do. He knows it. And if it's impossible to do, then the logical conclusion is you can never end slavery. So, in fact, his own racism justifies the continuation of slavery because he can't conceive of free blacks in his own society."
http://www.pbs.org/jefferson/archives/interviews/Finkelman.htm
It is 6:25 pm on Saturday here in the EST, so he won't answer for a few days anyway.
On January 27 2013 08:25 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2013 08:20 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 08:19 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 08:09 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 08:08 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 08:05 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 08:03 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 08:00 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 07:59 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 07:55 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
They also don't agree with him for what it's worth. He got that idea after googling what he believed to be true, finding Ryan Stevens and taking Ryan Steven's generic opening paragraph massively out of context and then presenting Ryan Stevens as somewhere in between Stephen Hawking and God. Yeah I saw that. I'm just laughing at the fact that he is still claiming it is based on a student and a law professor. That article is based on student. The book is from a law professor. No claiming, it is. Yes but he is a law professor not a history professor. It's like saying climate change isn't happening because one geology professor says so. My objective here is to give you enough sources so that you accept that American slavery was harsher than Roman slavery, and that it is common knowledge, which I know. The sources can come from anywhere as long as they are reliable. Perhaps the best evidence for what I am arguing is to compare Roman slave law to America slave law. Read the article, he shows the clear distinctions of why it is more harsh. Except sources can't just come from anywhere. If you source something from a student or from a professor in a different field it doesn't add much credibility to your argument. Perhaps the best evidence for what I am arguing is to compare Roman slave law to America slave law. And who better to consult that a law professor? Except that the slave laws doesn't give you a full picture of slavery. Its a much more complex issue than saying which laws were worse. Of course. So now let's look at the fact that anyone could be a slave in Roman times, and that slaves were uniquely African American in America. And let's look at the revolting racism that came out of slavery in America and resides in America today... Piece it together. Apparently the name calling is over and the real work has begun. Contrary to your strange American worldview racism is not the worst thing that can happen to anyone ever. I'd rather be called a nigger than forced to do backbreaking labour in malarial swamps for 14 hours a day until my early death. You really think that's what the slaves were upset about? Get some perspective. You wouldn't be pissed about being treated as subhuman on the basis of race and present a list of acceptable reasons for being treated as subhuman, for example being a civilian of a defeated barbarian tribe. You'd mainly just be pissed about being treated as subhuman.
Of course it isn't the worst thing that can happen to anyone. But racism is bad, slavery is worse, and the two combined are even worse.
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United States42668 Posts
Also at no point did I present Tacitus as a primary source on the daily experience of an agricultural slave. There is next to no evidence on that, nor indeed for the experience of the vast majority of slaves. What Tacitus is a primary source on is the systematic and institutionalised cruelty of the Roman system with regard to slaves as, in the incident in 61 AD, the aristocrats debate whether or not they should put to death 400 slaves and actually quell a popular uprising against the atrocity in order to ensure it is carried out. That, he is a source for. Also nothing in American history compares. Maybe if Washington, Madison, Franklin and all the others got together to decide whether they should have a competition to see who could shoot black babies out of a cannon the furthest distance and then, upon deciding that they should, made it a law that all black babies had to be handed over to them and then sent the army out to enforce it then you'd have a case. But they didn't because the American institutions never rivaled the institutional cruelty of Rome, even though the barbarity of the individual slave owners was comparable.
In 61 AD there is a riot over 400 innocent slaves being executed (on the basis of a Senate debate deciding they should be) and Nero sends in the army to stop the riot and make sure the slaves get executed. Nothing the US government has done is in the same league.
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On January 27 2013 08:36 KwarK wrote:
In 61 AD there is a riot over 400 innocent slaves being executed (on the basis of a Senate debate deciding they should be) and Nero sends in the army to stop the riot and make sure the slaves get executed. Nothing the US government has done is in the same league.
... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears ...
... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_sterilization ...
And Nero was worse than any of our Presidents...
We're comparing apples to oranges here though. I think we need to focus on the treat of individual slaves in each society. The institutional system that the South setup was as bad as any Roman system I believe.
Slave Code:
Slaves were forbidden to leave the owner's property, unless accompanied by a white person, or obtaining permission. If a slave leaves the owner's property without permission, "every white person" is required to chastise such slaves
Any slave attempting to run away and leave the colony (later, state) receives the death penalty
Any slave who evades capture for 20 days or more is to be publicly whipped for the first offense; branded with the letter R on the right cheek for the second offense; and lose one ear if absent for thirty days for the third offense; and castrated for the fourth offense.
Owners refusing to abide by the slave code are fined and forfeit ownership of their slaves
Slave homes are to be searched every two weeks for weapons or stolen goods. Punishment for violations escalate to include loss of ear, branding, and nose-slitting, and for the fourth offense, death.
No slave shall be allowed to work for pay, or to plant corn, peas or rice; or to keep hogs, cattle, or horses; or to own or operate a boat; to buy or sell; or to wear clothes finer than 'Negro cloth'
The South Carolina slave code was revised in 1739 with the following amendments:[5]
No slave shall be taught to write, work on Sunday, or work more than 15 hours per day in Summer, and 14 hours in Winter.
Willful killing of a slave exacts a fine of 700 pounds, and "passion" killing 350 pounds
The fine for concealing runaway slaves is one thousand dollars and a prison sentence of up to one year
A fine of one hundred dollars and six months in prison are imposed for employing any Black or slave as a clerk
A fine of one hundred dollars and six months in prison are imposed on anyone selling or giving alcoholic beverages to slaves
A fine of one hundred dollars and six months in prison are imposed for teaching a slave to read and write, and death is the penalty for circulating incendiary literature
Freeing a slave is forbidden, except by deed, and after 1820, only by permission of the legislature [Georgia required legislative approval after 1801]
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United States42668 Posts
On January 27 2013 08:33 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2013 08:23 KwarK wrote:On January 27 2013 08:15 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 08:12 KwarK wrote:On January 27 2013 08:09 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 08:08 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 08:05 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 08:03 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 08:00 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 07:59 imallinson wrote:
[quote]
Yeah I saw that. I'm just laughing at the fact that he is still claiming it is based on a student and a law professor. That article is based on student. The book is from a law professor. No claiming, it is. Yes but he is a law professor not a history professor. It's like saying climate change isn't happening because one geology professor says so. My objective here is to give you enough sources so that you accept that American slavery was harsher than Roman slavery, and that it is common knowledge, which I know. The sources can come from anywhere as long as they are reliable. Perhaps the best evidence for what I am arguing is to compare Roman slave law to America slave law. Read the article, he shows the clear distinctions of why it is more harsh. Except sources can't just come from anywhere. If you source something from a student or from a professor in a different field it doesn't add much credibility to your argument. Perhaps the best evidence for what I am arguing is to compare Roman slave law to America slave law. And who better to consult that a law professor? Given the limitations of the evidence involved a historian might help. Then they could, you know, actually know stuff. Or at least tell you that, to be honest, we don't really know very much about the lives of slaves and that which we do know either comes from their masters and is theoretical in nature or comes from slaves who were in no way representative of the majority of slaves. Unfortunately your average slave was left pretty much no historical footprint which is what I keep telling you, despite Ryan fucking Stevens. Read the source. It is so evident why slavery was worse. And you meant is "despite most scholars." I emailed Paul Burke, awaiting his response... I contend that racism was probably not a significant factor in the short, brutal lives of someone being worked to death. Here is where growing up in the United States makes a big difference. You are drilled with history and learn of the suffering that African Americans went through, not just because they were slaves, but because they have a different color of skin.
I agree completely with this. I made this point about two pages ago about why it was you were so religiously obsessive with racism being the worst thing ever and yet failed and refused to justify it beyond just feeling it to be true. It's because you're American and have been indoctrinated with the idea that there can never be anything anywhere as bad as racism. But it's absurd. I can name 5 things worse than experiencing racism off the top of my head. Being on fire. The loss of a child. Being crushed like in Indiana Jones. Being crushed like in Star Wars. Having an Alien burst out of your chest like in Alien.
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United Kingdom3482 Posts
On January 27 2013 08:38 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2013 08:36 KwarK wrote:
In 61 AD there is a riot over 400 innocent slaves being executed (on the basis of a Senate debate deciding they should be) and Nero sends in the army to stop the riot and make sure the slaves get executed. Nothing the US government has done is in the same league. ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears ... And Nero was worse than our President... We're comparing apples to oranges here though. I think we need to focus on the treat of individual slaves in each society. The institutional system that the South setup was as bad as any Roman system I believe.
You the one comparing apples to oranges what does forced relocation have to do with slavery.
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On January 27 2013 08:40 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2013 08:33 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 08:23 KwarK wrote:On January 27 2013 08:15 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 08:12 KwarK wrote:On January 27 2013 08:09 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 08:08 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 08:05 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 08:03 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 08:00 BronzeKnee wrote:
[quote]
That article is based on student. The book is from a law professor. No claiming, it is.
Yes but he is a law professor not a history professor. It's like saying climate change isn't happening because one geology professor says so. My objective here is to give you enough sources so that you accept that American slavery was harsher than Roman slavery, and that it is common knowledge, which I know. The sources can come from anywhere as long as they are reliable. Perhaps the best evidence for what I am arguing is to compare Roman slave law to America slave law. Read the article, he shows the clear distinctions of why it is more harsh. Except sources can't just come from anywhere. If you source something from a student or from a professor in a different field it doesn't add much credibility to your argument. Perhaps the best evidence for what I am arguing is to compare Roman slave law to America slave law. And who better to consult that a law professor? Given the limitations of the evidence involved a historian might help. Then they could, you know, actually know stuff. Or at least tell you that, to be honest, we don't really know very much about the lives of slaves and that which we do know either comes from their masters and is theoretical in nature or comes from slaves who were in no way representative of the majority of slaves. Unfortunately your average slave was left pretty much no historical footprint which is what I keep telling you, despite Ryan fucking Stevens. Read the source. It is so evident why slavery was worse. And you meant is "despite most scholars." I emailed Paul Burke, awaiting his response... I contend that racism was probably not a significant factor in the short, brutal lives of someone being worked to death. Here is where growing up in the United States makes a big difference. You are drilled with history and learn of the suffering that African Americans went through, not just because they were slaves, but because they have a different color of skin. I agree completely with this. I made this point about two pages ago about why it was you were so religiously obsessive with racism being the worst thing ever and yet failed and refused to justify it beyond just feeling it to be true. It's because you're American and have been indoctrinated with the idea that there can never be anything anywhere as bad as racism. But it's absurd. I can name 5 things worse than experiencing racism off the top of my head. Being on fire. The loss of a child. Being crushed like in Indiana Jones. Being crushed like in Star Wars. Having an Alien burst out of your chest like in Alien.
Great, and being a slave is not as bad as being a slave and being subjected to racism too right?
On January 27 2013 08:43 imallinson wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2013 08:38 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 08:36 KwarK wrote:
In 61 AD there is a riot over 400 innocent slaves being executed (on the basis of a Senate debate deciding they should be) and Nero sends in the army to stop the riot and make sure the slaves get executed. Nothing the US government has done is in the same league. ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears ... And Nero was worse than our President... We're comparing apples to oranges here though. I think we need to focus on the treat of individual slaves in each society. The institutional system that the South setup was as bad as any Roman system I believe. You the one comparing apples to oranges what does forced relocation have to do with slavery.
He said nothing the US government has done is in the same league. I'm not so sure about that, but it is an apples or oranges comparison.
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United States42668 Posts
On January 27 2013 08:38 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2013 08:36 KwarK wrote:
In 61 AD there is a riot over 400 innocent slaves being executed (on the basis of a Senate debate deciding they should be) and Nero sends in the army to stop the riot and make sure the slaves get executed. Nothing the US government has done is in the same league. ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears ... And Nero was worse than our President... We're comparing apples to oranges here though. I think we need to focus on the treat of individual slaves in each society. The institutional system that the South setup was as bad as any Roman system I believe.
Okay, firstly, as bad was my point. I was the one arguing that basically being a slave is pretty shit wherever you are. You were the one arguing that it's worse to be worked to death by a man who thinks you're inferior based on your skin colour than worked to death by a man who thinks you're inferior because you were taken as a slave. You can't steal my argument like that. I'd notice. In fact, I did notice.
Secondly, as i keep saying, there is no real evidence for the experience of an agricultural slave in Rome, only that which can be assumed indirectly by things like the fact that the stock was not self perpetuating (they died a lot).
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United States42668 Posts
On January 27 2013 08:44 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2013 08:40 KwarK wrote:On January 27 2013 08:33 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 08:23 KwarK wrote:On January 27 2013 08:15 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 08:12 KwarK wrote:On January 27 2013 08:09 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 08:08 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 08:05 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 08:03 imallinson wrote:
[quote]
Yes but he is a law professor not a history professor. It's like saying climate change isn't happening because one geology professor says so. My objective here is to give you enough sources so that you accept that American slavery was harsher than Roman slavery, and that it is common knowledge, which I know. The sources can come from anywhere as long as they are reliable. Perhaps the best evidence for what I am arguing is to compare Roman slave law to America slave law. Read the article, he shows the clear distinctions of why it is more harsh. Except sources can't just come from anywhere. If you source something from a student or from a professor in a different field it doesn't add much credibility to your argument. Perhaps the best evidence for what I am arguing is to compare Roman slave law to America slave law. And who better to consult that a law professor? Given the limitations of the evidence involved a historian might help. Then they could, you know, actually know stuff. Or at least tell you that, to be honest, we don't really know very much about the lives of slaves and that which we do know either comes from their masters and is theoretical in nature or comes from slaves who were in no way representative of the majority of slaves. Unfortunately your average slave was left pretty much no historical footprint which is what I keep telling you, despite Ryan fucking Stevens. Read the source. It is so evident why slavery was worse. And you meant is "despite most scholars." I emailed Paul Burke, awaiting his response... I contend that racism was probably not a significant factor in the short, brutal lives of someone being worked to death. Here is where growing up in the United States makes a big difference. You are drilled with history and learn of the suffering that African Americans went through, not just because they were slaves, but because they have a different color of skin. I agree completely with this. I made this point about two pages ago about why it was you were so religiously obsessive with racism being the worst thing ever and yet failed and refused to justify it beyond just feeling it to be true. It's because you're American and have been indoctrinated with the idea that there can never be anything anywhere as bad as racism. But it's absurd. I can name 5 things worse than experiencing racism off the top of my head. Being on fire. The loss of a child. Being crushed like in Indiana Jones. Being crushed like in Star Wars. Having an Alien burst out of your chest like in Alien. Great, and being a slave is not as bad as being a slave and being subjected to racism too right? Show nested quote +On January 27 2013 08:43 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 08:38 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 08:36 KwarK wrote:
In 61 AD there is a riot over 400 innocent slaves being executed (on the basis of a Senate debate deciding they should be) and Nero sends in the army to stop the riot and make sure the slaves get executed. Nothing the US government has done is in the same league. ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears ... And Nero was worse than our President... We're comparing apples to oranges here though. I think we need to focus on the treat of individual slaves in each society. The institutional system that the South setup was as bad as any Roman system I believe. You the one comparing apples to oranges what does forced relocation have to do with slavery. He said nothing the US government has done is in the same league. I'm not so sure about that, but it is an apples or oranges comparison.
No, your lawyer guy was the one who claimed the US gov was uniquely historically guilty and then you claimed that Tacitus was somehow irrelevant. I was responding to that.
And I still fail to see how the racism is the bit you'd be upset about as the supervisor walked up to you with an axe to cut your arm off after it got stuck in the machinery of the sugar press. If that were me he could call me a nigger as much as he liked if he'd just not cut my arm off, the axe would be the main concern.
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United Kingdom3482 Posts
On January 27 2013 08:44 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2013 08:40 KwarK wrote:On January 27 2013 08:33 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 08:23 KwarK wrote:On January 27 2013 08:15 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 08:12 KwarK wrote:On January 27 2013 08:09 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 08:08 imallinson wrote:On January 27 2013 08:05 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 08:03 imallinson wrote:
[quote]
Yes but he is a law professor not a history professor. It's like saying climate change isn't happening because one geology professor says so. My objective here is to give you enough sources so that you accept that American slavery was harsher than Roman slavery, and that it is common knowledge, which I know. The sources can come from anywhere as long as they are reliable. Perhaps the best evidence for what I am arguing is to compare Roman slave law to America slave law. Read the article, he shows the clear distinctions of why it is more harsh. Except sources can't just come from anywhere. If you source something from a student or from a professor in a different field it doesn't add much credibility to your argument. Perhaps the best evidence for what I am arguing is to compare Roman slave law to America slave law. And who better to consult that a law professor? Given the limitations of the evidence involved a historian might help. Then they could, you know, actually know stuff. Or at least tell you that, to be honest, we don't really know very much about the lives of slaves and that which we do know either comes from their masters and is theoretical in nature or comes from slaves who were in no way representative of the majority of slaves. Unfortunately your average slave was left pretty much no historical footprint which is what I keep telling you, despite Ryan fucking Stevens. Read the source. It is so evident why slavery was worse. And you meant is "despite most scholars." I emailed Paul Burke, awaiting his response... I contend that racism was probably not a significant factor in the short, brutal lives of someone being worked to death. Here is where growing up in the United States makes a big difference. You are drilled with history and learn of the suffering that African Americans went through, not just because they were slaves, but because they have a different color of skin. I agree completely with this. I made this point about two pages ago about why it was you were so religiously obsessive with racism being the worst thing ever and yet failed and refused to justify it beyond just feeling it to be true. It's because you're American and have been indoctrinated with the idea that there can never be anything anywhere as bad as racism. But it's absurd. I can name 5 things worse than experiencing racism off the top of my head. Being on fire. The loss of a child. Being crushed like in Indiana Jones. Being crushed like in Star Wars. Having an Alien burst out of your chest like in Alien. Great, and being a slave is not as bad as being a slave and being subjected to racism too right?
Except it isn't to anywhere near a meaningful degree. Being a slave is so much worse than being subjected to racism. That if you add racism on to being a slave it has no meaningful impact.
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On January 27 2013 08:45 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2013 08:38 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 27 2013 08:36 KwarK wrote:
In 61 AD there is a riot over 400 innocent slaves being executed (on the basis of a Senate debate deciding they should be) and Nero sends in the army to stop the riot and make sure the slaves get executed. Nothing the US government has done is in the same league. ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears ... And Nero was worse than our President... We're comparing apples to oranges here though. I think we need to focus on the treat of individual slaves in each society. The institutional system that the South setup was as bad as any Roman system I believe. Okay, firstly, as bad was my point. I was the one arguing that basically being a slave is pretty shit wherever you are. You were the one arguing that it's worse to be worked to death by a man who thinks you're inferior based on your skin colour than worked to death by a man who thinks you're inferior because you were taken as a slave. You can't steal my argument like that. I'd notice. In fact, I did notice. Secondly, as i keep saying, there is no real evidence for the experience of an agricultural slave in Rome, only that which can be assumed indirectly by things like the fact that the stock was not self perpetuating (they died a lot).
What? I didn't steal your argument. I've been arguing the whole time that being a slave is bad everywhere. Let me quote myself from two hours ago...
On January 27 2013 06:31 BronzeKnee wrote:
Please check the source I presented. It is a great article.
I am not disputing that Roman slaves were treated really badly.
In the prologue to his book, Generations of
Captivity, Ira Berlin makes it very clear that, “no history of
slavery can avoid these themes: violence, power, and labor,
hence the formation and reformation of classes and races.
The study of slavery on mainland North America is first the
study of enormous, hideous violence that a few powerful men
wielded to extort the labor of others"
But the fact is, I have been the one arguing that it's worse to be worked to death by a man who thinks you're inferior based on your skin colour and the fact your a slave than worked to death by a man who thinks you're inferior because you were taken as a slave.
Look at this way. Let's say you have two slaves, one is Asian and one is Black. But your racist and you really hate Asians, even though you'll work them both like slaves, won't you treat the Asian worse, because you hate Asians? Give the Asian an extra smack or two... or make them clean up the worst messes... Does that not make sense?
By the way, I need to stop, can you selectively ban me from just the general section permanently so I don't get sucked up into this discussions? I'm being completely serious.
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EPT
