Also you just picked up the tail end of the discussion. It was about whether pre-technological societies had it better and whether there is an ideological element to genocide (in the sense that liberal ideology of the individual being subservient to the greater good is necessary). I made the argument that genocide happens independently of modern philosophy and is primarily the result of a conflict over resources.
Humans are plague on Earth - Page 20
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KwarK
United States41973 Posts
Also you just picked up the tail end of the discussion. It was about whether pre-technological societies had it better and whether there is an ideological element to genocide (in the sense that liberal ideology of the individual being subservient to the greater good is necessary). I made the argument that genocide happens independently of modern philosophy and is primarily the result of a conflict over resources. | ||
JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On January 27 2013 04:52 KwarK wrote: How is a slave not an economic asset? It's not all they are, they're also people, but it is insanity to deny that a slave is an economic asset. It's a person whose labour is controlled by you. Labour is an economic asset. Also you just picked up the tail end of the discussion. It was about whether pre-technological societies had it better and whether there is an ideological element to genocide (in the sense that liberal ideology of the individual being subservient to the greater good is necessary). I made the argument that genocide happens independently of modern philosophy and is primarily the result of a conflict over resources. Perhaps this will help with that argument: Several archaeologists and anthropologists now argue that violence was much more pervasive in hunter-gatherer society than in more recent eras. From the !Kung in the Kalahari to the Inuit in the Arctic and the aborigines in Australia, two-thirds of modern hunter-gatherers are in a state of almost constant tribal warfare, and nearly 90% go to war at least once a year. War is a big word for dawn raids, skirmishes and lots of posturing, but death rates are high—usually around 25-30% of adult males die from homicide. The warfare death rate of 0.5% of the population per year that Lawrence Keeley of the University of Illinois calculates as typical of hunter-gatherer societies would equate to 2 billion people dying during the 20th century. ... Constant warfare was necessary to keep population density down to one person per square mile. Farmers can live at 100 times that density. Hunter-gatherers may have been so lithe and healthy because the weak were dead. The invention of agriculture and the advent of settled society merely swapped high mortality for high morbidity, allowing people some relief from chronic warfare so they could at least grind out an existence, rather than being ground out of existence altogether. Link to full article. | ||
BronzeKnee
United States5212 Posts
On January 27 2013 04:52 KwarK wrote: How is a slave not an economic asset? It's not all they are, they're also people, but it is insanity to deny that a slave is an economic asset. It's a person whose labour is controlled by you. Labour is an economic asset. I need to stay out of the general forum. I never go on political or philosophical forums because I get sucked in. Yes, you are correct in that human labor is a resource. However the American Civil War wasn't fought over human labor. That labor was going to happen either way and it did in fact happen both before and after the war. The North didn't want to deny the South human labor, which was the resource. The war was fought regarding human rights, whether or not it was legal for a certain group of people to work for nothing and have no legal rights. Human rights are not a physical resource. I hope that makes sense. EDIT: I just realized you may not have the historical knowledge if you grew up in the UK to know that slavery in America was far more about racism and racial superiority than getting free labor by 1861. Slavery in America was far different and darker than slavery in ancient Rome for example. And that is why it was about human rights, not resources. Southern plantation owners could easily afford to pay (and did after the war) people to pick crops without it adversely affecting profits. And the vast majority of people who willingly fought for the South in the war were not slave owners (only a very small percentage of Southerners could actually afford to own slaves). Yet Southerners they fought willingly and forcefully because they held (and even in many places in the South today still hold) racist beliefs about the inferiority of African Americans and the danger they present to society when free. Southern literature on African Americans from the era is absolutely revolting and disgusting, very similar to the way that Nazi Germany presented Jewish people. | ||
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KwarK
United States41973 Posts
On January 26 2013 16:15 Zahir wrote: He also gives specific mention to one of the world's more vulnerable countries, hinting at the typical euro-centric attitude of forcing others to conform to our ideals in a manner most beneficial to ourselves, not so much for them. It's the same strain running through colonialism, neoliberalism, etc. Let's just get together and use our traditional methods for controlling the world to force other nations (and we all know exactly which ones it'll be, not any western ones that's for sure) into not having many kids, not developing industries, not tampering with rainforests, etc. Nevermind that most industrialized nations have already burned through their natural resources and developed mammoth populations that consume and pollute like crazy. No one else should have the right to develop, only us. Ethiopia should remain a nice wildlife preserve for privileged explorers and conservationists from the civilized parts of the globe to visit, how dare they keep breeding, what a filthy plague, etc. And so many kids in this thread seem to be down with this, because they have a negative view on humanity, not realizing that their blithe agreement that humans are a plague plays right into the hands of people who want to make the problem worse. I'm pretty sure that he wants to concentrate on the areas in which shit hasn't already been wrecked irrevocably is because in the areas that shit has already been wrecked irrevocably shit has already been wrecked irrevocably. I don't doubt that he would happily see a return to the oak forests of England and the non eradication of wolves but we chopped down our forests and we killed our wolves. It seems a massive leap to your conclusion "fuck the blacks" when the areas the conservationists are interested in are the areas with things to conserve. Also the idea that we'd pressure them to act in ways that we want at their expense is nonsense. Nobody is invading these places and evicting local populations from wildlife preserves or anything. What we have is campaigns for western businesses to act ethically in our eyes and things such as the fairtrade and organic trends in which we reward shit we like. Your objection is nonsense. You damn him as a racist and a hypocrite for suggesting that population control to prevent the hypothetical lives of hypothetical people in foreign countries is good while not simultaneously advocating the slaughter of the living people in Western countries who exist because we didn't enact population control generations ago. The two are not comparable, there is no hypocrisy, you are talking complete and utter bollocks. | ||
AmericanNightmare
United States98 Posts
On January 27 2013 05:16 BronzeKnee wrote: Human rights are not a physical resource. I hope that makes sense. It doesn't make sense because much of what you say is incorrect. But this thread isn't about why the American Civil War was fought. EDIT: I just realized you may not have the historical knowledge if you grew up in the UK to know that slavery in America was far more about racism and racial superiority than getting free labor. Slavery in America was far different and darker than slavery in ancient Rome for example. And that is why it was about human rights, not resources. Southern plantation owners could easily afford to pay (and did after the war) people to pick crops without it adversely effecting profits. And the majority of people who willingly fought for the South in the war were not slave owners. Yet they still held (and even in many places in the South, hold today) racist beliefs. Humans who spread misinformation are the real plague to this planet. They spew they filth and those who aren't properly informed or the dumb easily fall for it. The cure to this plague are smart people or even people with the ability to read, who are willing to correct the filth spat out by the plague. Someone who believes that American slavery was "darker" then Roman Slavery is.... | ||
BronzeKnee
United States5212 Posts
On January 27 2013 05:40 AmericanNightmare wrote: It doesn't make sense because much of what you say is incorrect. But this thread isn't about why the American Civil War was fought. Humans who spread misinformation are the real plague to this planet. They spew they filth and those who aren't properly informed or the dumb easily fall for it. The cure to this plague are smart people or even people with the ability to read, who are willing to correct the filth spat out by the plague. Someone who believes that American slavery was "darker" then Roman Slavery is.... Did you grow up in the South? Roman slavery wasn't racist, anyone could be a slave. Slaves were generally people who were on the losing side of any given war. American slavery was blatantly racist, only African Americans were slaves. The ancients had no sense of racism. (They did have prejudices against foreigners, but this was based on nationality, not race.) In America, very few slaves went free in comparison to their numbers, while in Rome many slaves ended up freeing themselves. The freed slaves in Rome could climb the social ladder and often did, becoming businessmen, craftsmen, or government officials. In America it was much more difficult, as race and lack of education worked against the freed slave. How long did it take America to elect a black president after freeing the slaves? The ancient slaves always had the hope of freedom, either from their owners or by buying their freedom. Most American slaves did not have this advantage. It is well known and documented that African Americans were dehumanized and treated extremely cruel compared to Roman slaves. In Rome skilled or educated slaves were allowed to earn their own money, which they could eventually use to buy their freedom. The racist undertones that dominated American slavery and came to define it and Southern culture clearly are far darker than Roman slavery. Slaves were people in Rome that could redeem themselves. African American slaves could not change their skin color and had no way to redeem themselves. Read up on it for yourself, because you're simply denying history. Romans today don't look back with racist feelings when it comes to slavery in the past. Southerners do. I'm not going to get into this anymore than that, I feel like I am talking to a Holocaust denier... | ||
neggro
United States591 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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KwarK
United States41973 Posts
On January 27 2013 05:43 BronzeKnee wrote: Roman slavery wasn't racist, anyone could be a slave. American slavery was balantly racist, only African Americans were slaves. The ancients had no sense of racism. (They did have prejudices against foreigners, but this was based on nationality, not race.) In America, few slaves were freed in comparison to their numbers, while in Rome hundreds of slaves were freed annually. The freed slaves in Rome, although owing a limited service to their former masters, were free to climb the social ladder and many of them did, becoming businessmen, craftsmen, or government officials. In America it was much more difficult, as race and lack of education worked against the freed slave. How long did it take America to elect a black president after freeing the slaves? The ancient slaves always had the hope of freedom, either from their owners or by buying their freedom. An American slave did not have this advantage. I'm not going to get into this anymore than that. The racist undertones that dominated American slavery and came to define it and Southern culture clearly are far darker than Roman slavery. It is well known and documented that African Americans were dehumanized and treated extremely cruel compared to Roman slaves. Check it our for yourself. My guess is you grew up in the South. A freedman owed more than a limited service to his master. He was forever bonded to his master as a client in a master client relationship, manumission did not mean an end to his involvement in the master's economic sphere. Often it was a useful tool in the running of the household business. Furthermore a slave freed for the purpose of marriage could not refuse to marry her master and a man was absolute master of the household with the power to beat or kill his wife, those manumissions were not always an act of kindness. And then we get on to the bias in our sources in which the slaves referred to and freed were a tiny, tiny minority of the slaves used and not in any way representative of them. Your average slave was worked exceptionally hard in the fields if he was lucky, in a mine if he was unlucky, until he died, he had no hope of freedom which was granted, in an incomplete way, to a small minority of slaves. Of course, this is much like the treatment of slaves in the US before the end of the slave trade (where constant supply was needed to maintain stocks due to the rapid consumption). You have also completely mischaracterised the nature of slaves as government officials. You are talking, I believe, about the emperor Claudius who distrusted everyone but his own household and entrusted a lot of the business of government to his slaves and freedmen under his direction. It was by no means standard, it was an aberration and is noted in our sources as an aberration which leads me to believe you have not read them. You do not understand that of which you speak. | ||
BronzeKnee
United States5212 Posts
On January 27 2013 05:54 KwarK wrote: You have also completely mischaracterised the nature of slaves as government officials. You are talking, I believe, about the emperor Claudius who distrusted everyone but his own household and entrusted a lot of the business of government to his slaves and freedmen under his direction. It was by no means standard, it was an aberration and is noted in our sources as an aberration which leads me to believe you have not read them. You do not understand that of which you speak. Come on KwarK, I expect better. During the early Empire freed slaves held so many key positions in the government bureaucracy, that Hadrian restricted their participation by law. However, he deemed that any future children of a freedman would be born free, with full rights of citizenship. This is known, look it up. Now, Rome had a long history and sources are limited and unreliable so maybe this isn't the best discussion to have. Fact is, Roman slaves didn't face racism, because they came from all races. Americans slaves did. And because of this African Americans face racism today in America, yet there were no lingering bad sentiments after Roman slavery ended. We need moar sources! Here are sources: http://books.google.com/books?id=K-o8AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA396&lpg=PA396&dq=hadrian restricted freedmen&source=bl&ots=LOp0EOZeXw&sig=yNgKdfSLJQo-DAc_Ik2prWs3PnM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DEQEUZvcK4f-0gGu_oHQBQ&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=hadrian restricted freedmen&f=falsese http://books.google.com/books?id=iklePELtR6QC&pg=PA564&dq=hadrian restricted freedmen&hl=en&sa=X&ei=SEUEUairFoHo0gHZ5YHwDw&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=hadrian restricted freedmen&f=false And I really just need to stop. | ||
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KwarK
United States41973 Posts
Hadrian is the emperor who marked a decisive change in ideology from an aggressive expansionist empire to a primarily defensive one, hence the walls and the surrender of Trajan's gains back to the Parthians. What this means in practical terms, is that by the time Hadrian is around the supply of slaves has dried up. The Roman Empire reached its largest under Trajan and never again matched that expansion and, of course, without expansion you don't get slaves. It is entirely unsurprising that in the age of Hadrian the treatment of slaves, who were no longer expendable, improved. However Hadrian was in the middle Principate, you've skipped the 2/3 of Roman slave owning history and hoped I wouldn't notice. Referring to just the empire is also somewhat sneaky given slavery as an institution predates it by centuries. | ||
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KwarK
United States41973 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [Roman manumission] + Review of Henrik Mouritsen, The Freedman in the Roman World. Cambridge; New York: Cambridge University Press, 2011. Pp. vi, 344. ISBN 9780521856133. $99.00. Reviewed by Rose MacLean, Princeton University (rmaclean@princeton.edu) Preview At a time when the most important works on Roman freedmen still refer to “the decline of the Italian stock” and “the infiltration of the Roman population by foreigners,” Mouritsen’s comprehensive study of The Freedman in the Roman World represents an invaluable contribution.1 Given the importance of manumission to the way that Romans thought about their society, as well as ex-slaves’ unique position in economic and political life, Mouritsen has built a firm foundation not just for historians interested in ancient slavery but also for those with a wide array of concerns, from the discourses of power and honor to demography and legal practice. Taking a synchronic approach, Mouritsen divides his book into two sections – three chapters on the construction of the Roman libertus and three on the practice of manumission. Separating the ideological aspects from more technical questions creates a useful analytical boundary, but at critical points Mouritsen shows how these two sides of the problem influenced one another. In a final chapter, an attempt is made to ascertain the experiences and identities of former slaves from their own perspective. The categories of “slave” and “free” were fundamental and inalienable in Roman juridical thought – a construct that rendered manumission problematic because it implied movement from one status to the other. By adding “freed” as a third modal category, the jurists ensured that ingenui and liberti remained essentially different, since the latter carried the stain of their past, the macula servitutis. The roots of this bias lay not in the theory of natural slavery, which most Romans rejected, but rather in the idea that people fell into slavery as a result of bad fortune. Still, an appreciation of slaves’ basic humanity did not preclude the perception of their moral and physical character as weak, childlike, cowardly, and incapable of legitimate honor. Slavery left an indelible mark on a person’s ingenium, just as it could on his body. Such degradation was immediate and automatic but could be exacerbated or alleviated depending on how the slave was treated or on his natural aptitudes. A slave who had been beaten or tattooed had little chance of bettering his position, while an educated servant who won his master’s favor could improve in the eyes of slave-owners; he could, in essence, “grow up.” This developmental model reassured manumitters that they were releasing into the free population only those mature enough to participate in the civitas. The patron-freedman relationship ensured the continuity of this ideal after manumission by constructing ex-slaves as their patron’s children sine natura. This fiction helped perpetuate a dynamic of authority and dependence, while at the same time integrating freedmen into the familia in a way that legitimated their proximity to power as agents of the ruling orders. Although this paradigm was not always manifest in reality, legal and social norms helped impose a standard of behavior on freedmen based on deference, industry, and fides. The distance between these qualities and those most valued by male elites – in particular, honos and virtus – fed back into the definition of the ex-slave as free but still inferior. Although one wonders how this distinction may have changed as aristocrats adapted to monarchy, it is clear that the degradation of freedmen conditioned their place in society. Despite a long tradition of enfranchising freedmen, the Romans sought to limit this group’s political influence. The inscription of liberti in the four urban tribes and the practice of excluding ex-slaves from municipal councils may be viewed within this context. On the other hand, Mouritsen’s interpretation of the Augustan reforms aligns the laws about freedmen with other parts of the program by reading them as ideological statements. Augustus’ attempts to regulate manumission were strikingly inefficient and probably represent “official declarations which emphasized the need for proper selection and ‘quality control’ in the manumission process” (p. 84). Like the marriage laws, they articulate a self-styled return to traditional mores. Further, by limiting the number of freedmen who received the full franchise, Augustus portrayed the citizenship as a privileged status that could be coveted by provincials. The emperor’s slaves and freedmen emerged as a central administrative body that symbolized the autocratic nature of the principate. Republican elites had employed slaves and liberti to perform public duties, but the rise of individual magnates heightened the visibility of such staff. In turn, influential members of the imperial family came to exemplify the transition from a government based on intra-elite competition to one ruled by the auctoritas of one man. Likewise, the extent to which a princeps controlled or was controlled by his freedmen became instrumental in shaping his image. Although the reliance on such personnel developed for practical reasons, the familia Caesaris (and wealthy freedmen in general) became focal points for ideological conflict about status, wealth, and political authority. These discussions convey the full complexity of “the freedman” as a cultural construct linked to a range of other concerns. Importantly, Mouritsen maintains an awareness of the Romans’ capacity to hold contradictory views simultaneously, to see freedmen as human beings but also as inherently dishonored. As Fitzgerald did for slaves in Latin literature, Mouritsen shows how the Romans used liberti to interrogate basic boundaries and to channel anxieties about social and political change.2 Further, the Romans’ ideals about freedmen help explain why they kept manumitting slaves despite the unsettling paradoxes that arose from this change of status. We come to appreciate the intricacies of the Roman social imagination in its connection to social practice. Mouritsen’s treatment of more technical problems is executed as masterfully as his examination of ideology. He rightly accepts that we lack sufficient documentation to establish demographic measures with any precision. The strength of his discussion is not to solve insoluble problems but to compile the evidence – most of which indicates that manumission at Rome was more common than in other slave systems, but selective on the basis of the ideal that only deserving slaves should be freed. Thankfully, the reasons for why the Romans manumitted so many slaves are easier to ascertain. On the one hand, the promise of freedom was a powerful incentive by which to inspire diligence and good behavior. But the frequency of manumission cannot be explained by this single function; and the social and economic benefits of the patron-freedman relationship were the key to sustaining the Roman system. This emphasis on patronage leads Mouritsen to downplay the importance of self-purchase, which some others have placed in the foreground. Roman manumission did not necessitate a replacement of services lost, because freedmen remained tied to the familia. Nor can the peculium be linked unequivocally with self-purchase; it rather served as a general indicator of the slave’s status within the household. Similarly, testamentary manumission may not have been as appealing to slave-owners as is often assumed, because masters were more likely to see the benefits of capitalizing on freedmen’s continued service during their lifetime. Although it is impossible to pinpoint the frequency with which these types of manumission were used, Mouritsen makes a convincing case that the patron-freedman relationship was a determining factor. Understanding the practice of manumission requires asking who was freed and for what reasons. Epigraphic evidence suggests that children were manumitted in exceptional circumstances but that slaves in their late teens and twenties had a decent chance of receiving their freedom. Such a pattern implies a shortfall of home-born slaves, but Roman elites did not manage their households in strictly rational terms. In fact, the reasons for manumission were highly subjective, relying above all on familiarity and trust. As a result, we rarely hear of Roman masters freeing agricultural slaves, with whom they would have had little contact; and patterns within the familia Caesaris usually followed an impersonal standard. Again, the ideological foundations of Roman manumission – namely, that enslavement was caused by misfortune and that slaves of good character could earn their libertas – reinforced actual practice. A continued focus on the patron-freedman relationship guides Mouritsen’s discussion of ex-slaves in the Roman economy. While not a bourgeoisie, freedmen were uniquely positioned to succeed economically because of their integration into the familia. Unlike freeborn clients, liberti had a quasi-familial bond with their ex- master that made them prime candidates for posts in the family business and provided a source of start-up capital. This model casts doubt on the category of the “independent freedman,” the ex-slave whose patron had died and who therefore could become rich beyond normally acceptable levels. In fact, we know of many wealthy freedmen whose fortunes grew with the active support of their patrons, and ex-slaves emerge as a social group that was subject to stigmatization but also intimately involved with the freeborn ruling orders, so in some senses a group of insiders. Freedmen’s role in political life is interpreted along similar lines. The Augustales, for instance, represent a locally specific phenomenon whose unifying function was to allow ex-slaves to participate in civic society through acts of euergetism. Moreover, the sons of freedmen who entered politics – often held up as icons of economically driven upward mobility – were not seen as essentially different from other ingenui. They faced hurdles similar to those encountered by any “new man,” though more extreme because they started at a lower rung of the social ladder. Rather than cast first-generation ingenui as social upstarts who bought their way into the elite, Mouritsen invites us to contextualize their success in an environment where newcomers joined the public sphere with the support of powerful patrons. Given Mouritsen’s sensitivity to the patron-freedman relationship, which was by nature two-sided, it is surprising that he relegates his discussion of the freedman’s perspective to a brief final chapter. He correctly observes, as have others, that Petronius’ caricature of the wealthy freedman has exerted undue influence on historians.3 In particular, interpretations of ex-slaves’ funerary commemorations have overwhelmingly focused on the desire to advertise status. By contrast, Mouritsen stresses the importance of the nuclear family, to which manumission granted a newfound stability.4 Trimalchio’s grip on the historical imagination weakens as we come to appreciate the degrees to which freeborn society ostracized or integrated liberti; one could praise a freedman in one breath and deride the infimus ordo in the next, depending on social or rhetorical context. Nevertheless, the views of freeborn Romans are imperfect measures of how freedmen constructed their own communities. Mouritsen brings us closer to an authentically freed perspective when, in closing, he points out that the vast majority of former slaves married individuals of the same status. Again, the valuation of family emerges as a cultural product of freedmen’s common experience of having endured enslavement and achieved at least a limited freedom. Filling an obvious gap in the scholarship, Mouritsen offers historians the opportunity to comprehend manumission in its ideological and practical aspects, as well as in the correspondences between the two. In the process, he sheds light not just on how the Romans approached this institution, but also on how manumission interacted with other areas of discourse, with social structure more broadly, and with political and economic developments. Mouritsen’s depth of insight and breadth of knowledge have, at last, produced an overarching account of manumission in the Roman world that will be an essential point of departure for future work on this topic, as well as an invaluable resource for teaching. | ||
BronzeKnee
United States5212 Posts
On January 27 2013 06:06 KwarK wrote: Firstly, as I've already demonstrated, a freedman is not free. He is still bonded to his old master and is part of their household. Freedmen in the government were used by their old masters as tools. Hadrian is the emperor who marked a decisive change in ideology from an aggressive expansionist empire to a primarily defensive one, hence the walls and the surrender of Trajan's gains back to the Parthians. What this means in practical terms, is that by the time Hadrian is around the supply of slaves has dried up. The Roman Empire reached its largest under Trajan and never again matched that expansion and, of course, without expansion you don't get slaves. It is entirely unsurprising that in the age of Hadrian the treatment of slaves, who were no longer expendable, improved. However Hadrian was in the middle Principate, you've skipped the 2/3 of Roman slave owning history and hoped I wouldn't notice. Referring to just the empire is also somewhat sneaky given slavery as an institution predates it by centuries. That is why I said that this probably isn't the best discussion to have. Rome has an incredibly long history. Discussion about whether or not people are free is semantic and philosophical. "Freedmen, were former slaves who had gained their freedom." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_citizenship I've read a lot of books regarding Roman history, the purpose of the Google Search was to show how the fact that Freedmen had to be limited to holding offices was general historical knowledge. But it is besides the point. The point I am making is that American slavery was blatantly racist, and Roman slavery was not. Because of this Roman slaves had it relatively better. Just think about it, a hardworking slave can earn respect. But if your African American, no matter how hard you work your not going to get respect because the color of your skin. It is well known that American slaves were treated worse than Roman slaves due to racism. Are you actually arguing that? If so, I can do another Google Search was to show how that African American slaves are treated worse is general historical knowledge. Or, you can do it yourself. | ||
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KwarK
United States41973 Posts
A freedman holding an office does not hold an office in his own name. That is what you seem to not be getting. "it is well known" Seriously? That's your argument now. Did you know that in Republican Rome if a slave killed a master the entire household of slaves was put to death to incentivise slaves turning each other in? And that's household slaves who actually had contact with their owners. Your agricultural and industrial slaves were thought of as akin to a piece of machinery, to be used and discarded when broken. When a person has no rights the humaneness of their treatment is pretty much based upon the interests of their masters and I have no doubt that Roman's were just as capable of wanton cruelty as southern plantation owners. | ||
BronzeKnee
United States5212 Posts
On January 27 2013 06:18 KwarK wrote: Okay, now you're quoting wikipedia. Freedmen in Rome were not classed, nor treated, as equal to free men in a social, judicial, economic or political sense. They were men who were freed but they were not free men. You need to research it beyond looking at the construct word and guessing at the context. Okay, whatever you say about Freedmen is true. I am not an expert on Freedmen. Perhaps I will read up on the later because I'm very interested in Roman history. But it honestly means nothing to me now and isn't the point I am trying to make. It is well known that American slaves were treated worse than Roman slaves due to racism ( African Americans weren't just people who slaves, they were look at as only being slaves, not people). Are we arguing that? Apparently you are. Look, slaves are treated very poorly by the definition of the word. But when add racism into the mix it gets worse. Oh look, academic peer review journals, showing it is general common knowledge! But I know this because it was drilled into my head in grade school, while you might not have had as much US history if you grew up in England... http://www.jbu.edu/assets/academics/journal/resource/file/2011/ryan_stephens.pdf A quote: "Most scholars agree that early slavery in the Roman Republic lacked the intensity that existed later in the Empire. When compared with other forms of the institution, like the sugar slavery in the Caribbean hundreds of years later, punishments were light." This was likely due to the fact that many Romans believed slaves were to be treated as normal human beings. William Phillips Jr. quoted a Roman jurist named Florentius, “Slavery is an institution of the common law of people by which a person is put into the ownership of somebody else, contrary to the natural order…The word for property in slaves is derived from the fact that they are captured from the enemy by force of arms.” | ||
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KwarK
United States41973 Posts
Also check this out + Show Spoiler + Soon afterwards one of his own slaves murdered the city-prefect, Pedanius Secundus, either because he had been refused his freedom, for which he had made a bargain, or in the jealousy of a love in which he could not brook his master's rivalry. Ancient custom required that the whole slave-establishment which had dwelt under the same roof should be dragged to execution, when a sudden gathering of the populace, which was for saving so many innocent lives, brought matters to actual insurrection. Even in the Senate there was a strong feeling on the part of those who shrank from extreme rigour, though the majority were opposed to any innovation. Of these, Caius Cassius, in giving his vote, argued to the following effect:- "Often have I been present, Senators, in this assembly when new decrees were demanded from us contrary to the customs and laws of our ancestors, and I have refrained from opposition, not because I doubted but that in all matters the arrangements of the past were better and fairer and that all changes were for the worse, but that I might not seem to be exalting my own profession out of an excessive partiality for ancient precedent. At the same time I thought that any influence I possess ought not to be destroyed by incessant protests, wishing that it might remain unimpaired, should the State ever need my counsels. To-day this has come to pass, since an ex-consul has been murdered in his house by the treachery of slaves, which not one hindered or divulged, though the Senate's decree, which threatens the entire slave-establishment with execution, has been till now unshaken. Vote impunity, in heaven's name, and then who will be protected by his rank, when the prefecture of the capital has been of no avail to its holder? Who will be kept safe by the number of his slaves when four hundred have not protected Pedanius Secundus? Which of us will be rescued by his domestics, who, even with the dread of punishment before them, regard not our dangers? Was the murderer, as some do not blush to pretend, avenging his wrongs because he had bargained about money from his father or because a family-slave was taken from him? Let us actually decide that the master was justly slain. "Is it your pleasure to search for arguments in a matter already weighed in the deliberations of wiser men than ourselves? Even if we had now for the first time to come to a decision, do you believe that a slave took courage to murder his master without letting fall a threatening word or uttering a rash syllable? Granted that he concealed his purpose, that he procured his weapon without his fellows' knowledge. Could he pass the night-guard, could he open the doors of the chamber, carry in a light, and accomplish the murder, while all were in ignorance? There are many preliminaries to guilt; if these are divulged by slaves, we may live singly amid numbers, safe among a trembling throng; lastly, if we must perish, it will be with vengeance on the guilty. Our ancestors always suspected the temper of their slaves, even when they were born on the same estates, or in the same houses with themselves and thus inherited from their birth an affection for their masters. But now that we have in our households nations with different customs to our own, with a foreign worship or none at all, it is only by terror you can hold in such a motley rabble. But, it will be said, the innocent will perish. Well, even in a beaten army when every tenth man is felled by the club, the lot falls also on the brave. There is some injustice in every great precedent, which, though injurious to individuals, has its compensation in the public advantage." No one indeed dared singly to oppose the opinion of Cassius, but clamorous voices rose in reply from all who pitied the number, age, or sex, as well as the undoubted innocence of the great majority. Still, the party which voted for their execution prevailed. But the sentence could not be obeyed in the face of a dense and threatening mob, with stones and firebrands. Then the emperor reprimanded the people by edict, and lined with a force of soldiers the entire route by which the condemned had to be dragged to execution. Cingonius Varro had proposed that even all the freedmen under the same roof should be transported from Italy. This the emperor forbade, as he did not wish an ancient custom, which mercy had not relaxed, to be strained with cruel rigour. And because we're actually providing sources now, that's Tacitus, Annals, book 14. Which I've read. To sum it up. A guy was killed by his slave. Law therefore required that his entire household of slaves be put to death. Unfortunately he had 400 of them and obviously most, if not all of them, would have had no knowledge of the plan to murder him. There was a Senate debate but they concluded that the only just thing to do was to put every single one of them to death. A mob formed who were outraged by this decision so Nero deployed the legions to ensure it was carried through. There was also a second debate about whether or not all the freedmen (note, not legally free) should also be punished but Nero didn't wish to be cruel. | ||
BronzeKnee
United States5212 Posts
I am not disputing that Roman slaves were treated really badly. In the prologue to his book, Generations of Captivity, Ira Berlin makes it very clear that, “no history of slavery can avoid these themes: violence, power, and labor, hence the formation and reformation of classes and races. The study of slavery on mainland North America is first the study of enormous, hideous violence that a few powerful men wielded to extort the labor of others" | ||
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KwarK
United States41973 Posts
You are arguing that racism makes American slavery worse somehow. At least you've stopped arguing that Roman slaves were freed all the time (manumission was rare, pretty much unheard of outside of skilled household slaves, did not amount to free status) but you've skipped the bit where they weren't worked to death in deplorable conditions and not put to death. Also that quote just says that American slavery was bad (to sum it up), it's true, it was pretty bad, I certainly wouldn't want to be worked to death in a sugar press. If you wish to show that slavery in America was uniquely awful then you need to show how it was worse than Roman slavery and given that in both people are worked to death in deplorable conditions with no control over their own lives that'd be a pretty tough sell. I think both pretty much hit the maximum as far as shittiness goes. It is worth noting however that when Tarantino wanted to show how abhorrent slavery was in Django he invented gladiator slaves so we can see how their lives were not their own and how they died on the whims of their masters and be in no doubt how incredibly evil it was. Of course, that never happened in America, it did in Rome though. | ||
BronzeKnee
United States5212 Posts
I think instead we should look at the general treatment of slaves in both societies and the laws that existed and governed their existence. Here we find evidence of the slave codes that governed life for American slaves to be far harsher than the ones in Rome. Thus we get this: "Most scholars agree that early slavery in the Roman Republic lacked the intensity that existed later in the Empire. When compared with other forms of the institution, like the sugar slavery in the Caribbean hundreds of years later, punishments were light. This was likely due to the fact that many Romans believed slaves were to be treated as normal human beings." So you are arguing against what most scholars believe and what is believed to be common knowledge. Just read the peer reviewed article, it makes it very clear that the institution of slavery became much more oppressive and cruel in American than it was in Rome. The onus is on you to produce a mountain of evidence now... not just to overturn my opinion, but to overturn what is regarded by fact in the intellectual community... | ||
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KwarK
United States41973 Posts
What you can say is that slavery in the Republic (before most of the Empire was conquered) lacked the intensity that existed after the people who became the slaves were enslaved. On the other hand you can also say that the treatment of African slaves in America was pretty good before Columbus. It's a meaningless statement. Slavery as a system relied upon aggressive warfare in Gaul, Germania and across the Danube and these began with Caesar in the last days of the Republic. Your quote is a heap of nonsensical bullshit, meaningless to anyone with any knowledge of the subject. You are ignorant, your quote is ignorant, the claim that "most scholars" agree is unfounded and ignorant. If you ask a decent Roman historian what he can tell you about the lives of agricultural slaves in Rome the only correct answer is "not much" and then he'll bring up what little archeological evidence we have and tell you that they were housed separately from the main building and bring up the treatises of estate management. You need to be ignorant of the subject to speak on it with any certainty. Also throwing away 142 slaves to claim the insurance is a rational economic decision made by a man who didn't give a shit about their lives. It is in no way comparable to a discussion in the Senate house about whether the state should enforce the execution of 400 innocents which then deployed troops to ensure it was carried out. One is a man being greedy. The other is the ultimate imposition of the cultural practice by the state. | ||
BronzeKnee
United States5212 Posts
On January 27 2013 06:52 KwarK wrote: I counter that by saying that most scholars do not agree with that. See the problem here is that he said that in a peer reviewed article that was published. Thus, a group of professors who are experts in the field looked at his claims and fact checked them. It is a serious article. University's don't publish crap, if they do they lose legitimacy. The peer reviewed journal industry is serious business, you publish something false knowingly, and you'll be hit with academic dishonestly and be expelled if you are a student or fired if you're a professor. And that is why most University's only allow you to quote peer reviewed articles when writing papers. And the fact he didn't even have to provide a source for the claim that most scholars agrees shows even more than it is common knowledge. You don't need to quote a source if you say Magna Carta was signed in 1215, that is common knowledge. The same thing is happening here. However, your statement was not peer reviewed by a group of professors who are experts in the field and it was not published in a university journal. You need to provide some real evidence, preferably from peer reviewed journals. Do you see the problem here? Do you want more sources saying it is common knowledge? How many sources? In fact, I will ask Paul Burke PHD, he is a very good Roman historian and I studied under him years ago. Perhaps his answer will sway you (and if I remember correctly, he believe that chattel slavery in America was far harsher than Roman slavery)? There is nothing left for me to argue or learn from here... | ||
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