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On April 11 2013 00:05 anGe wrote:
How is it sad that they do nothing? You would prefer that they nuke the shit out of SK and Japan?
I don't want anyone to nuke anyone, obviously. I want the concentration camp known as North Korea to dissolve.
I'm not gonna pretend to be an expert on this subject, but from what I can gather I'm afraid it won't ever come to that unless NK provokes some kind of action against them. As long as they just keep dick-waving people suffer daily while the rest of the world watches idly. That, is sad for me.
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On April 11 2013 22:21 Infini wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 00:05 anGe wrote:
How is it sad that they do nothing? You would prefer that they nuke the shit out of SK and Japan? I don't want anyone to nuke anyone, obviously. I want the concentration camp known as North Korea to dissolve. I'm not gonna pretend to be an expert on this subject, but from what I can gather I'm afraid it won't ever come to that unless NK provokes some kind of action against them. As long as they just keep dick-waving people suffer daily while the rest of the world watches idly. That, is sad for me.
No one wants a war with NK because they would be crazy enough to go out in a crop of mushroom clouds, and even if they didn't their artillery would do big damage to Seoul and its suburbs, and finally, there would be a huge refugee crisis with hundreds of thousands or even millions of North Koreans trying to cross both into China and SK. No one wants any of those things to happen so the rest of the world kinda has to turn the other cheek whenever the North Koreans decide to sink a SK ship or shell an island or do some other act of war.
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I just feel bad for ordinary people in north korea. Imagine if they ever find out how the rest of the world lives and all the shit that their government tells them isnt true?
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It's decent agitprop but it's internal contradictions and omissions and well total lack of historical accuracy or context are a little too obvious, but that's just an inherent weakness in agitprop. Just for example, Kim il-Sung was not about to win an election for the presidency of a united Korea in 1948. For another, it says we've provoked NK and not negotiated with them, but North Korea was negotiated with all during the 1990s and at the same time was secretly building its nuclear program. But of course the article also says that their having nukes is justified.
It's also well-documented that the Korean War was planned, started, and directed straight from Moscow. But stopping Communist wars isn't the point of organizations like the Stop the War Coalition.
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On April 11 2013 23:19 DeepElemBlues wrote:It's decent agitprop but it's internal contradictions and omissions and well total lack of historical accuracy or context are a little too obvious, but that's just an inherent weakness in agitprop. Just for example, Kim il-Sung was not about to win an election for the presidency of a united Korea in 1948. For another, it says we've provoked NK and not negotiated with them, but North Korea was negotiated with all during the 1990s and at the same time was secretly building its nuclear program. But of course the article also says that their having nukes is justified. It's also well-documented that the Korean War was planned, started, and directed straight from Moscow. But stopping Communist wars isn't the point of organizations like the Stop the War Coalition.
Agreed, To me it just seems like there's a war about to happen, so they decided they had to say something, even if it doesn't really make any sense at all.
The problem with articles like this is that they completely destroy any credibility that anyone on the left has, because they garner the support of all the overly emotional types who don't have the patience to sit and research something, or fully think it through. Two of my friends just posted this article on facebook. They obviously have no clue about the crisis, and just agreed with it because of the website it came from. I am a lefty, so i feel my own credibility is damaged by this kind of BS.
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We've merely been speculating on Kim Jong Un's intent behind these actions. Credible ones seems to be that he's going after more appeasement deals, and getting dissidents in tow, shoring up his leadership, and establishing respect.
At least how some of the media has portrayed it, not everyone is happy with the current situation and there has been purported indication that a lot of old brass in the NK military question his resolve and leadership. The youngling is raw and untested, and thus we have a volatile situation, as he's almost a King Joffery type character that is even more hard to read (sorry for the GoT analogy).
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On April 11 2013 23:31 TerribleTrioJon wrote:
We've merely been speculating on Kim Jong Un's intent behind these actions. Credible ones seems to be that he's going after more appeasement deals, and getting dissidents in tow, shoring up his leadership, and establishing respect.
At least how some of the media has portrayed it, not everyone is happy with the current situation and there has been purported indication that a lot of old brass in the NK military question his resolve and leadership. The youngling is raw and untested, and thus we have a volatile situation, as he's almost a King Joffery type character that is even more hard to read (sorry for the GoT analogy).
May i speculate further that he is actually just doing whatever the hell he is told to do?
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On April 11 2013 23:27 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 23:19 DeepElemBlues wrote:It's decent agitprop but it's internal contradictions and omissions and well total lack of historical accuracy or context are a little too obvious, but that's just an inherent weakness in agitprop. Just for example, Kim il-Sung was not about to win an election for the presidency of a united Korea in 1948. For another, it says we've provoked NK and not negotiated with them, but North Korea was negotiated with all during the 1990s and at the same time was secretly building its nuclear program. But of course the article also says that their having nukes is justified. It's also well-documented that the Korean War was planned, started, and directed straight from Moscow. But stopping Communist wars isn't the point of organizations like the Stop the War Coalition. Agreed, To me it just seems like there's a war about to happen, so they decided they had to say something, even if it doesn't really make any sense at all. The problem with articles like this is that they completely destroy any credibility that anyone on the left has, because they garner the support of all the overly emotional types who don't have the patience to sit and research something, or fully think it through. Two of my friends just posted this article on facebook. They obviously have no clue about the crisis, and just agreed with it because of the website it came from. I am a lefty, so i feel my own credibility is damaged by this kind of BS.
There's a reason center-left parties mostly keep themselves at a distance from the more radical anti-war / pro-communist bitter clingers, the same reason center-right parties stay away from organizations like the KKK or the British National Party. They're crazies and they make you look crazy if you work with them.
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On April 11 2013 23:31 TerribleTrioJon wrote:
We've merely been speculating on Kim Jong Un's intent behind these actions.
He is a small dog standing with his back to the wall barking as loud as he can but no one wants to take him serious until he bites someone.
edit:
On April 11 2013 23:33 Jockmcplop wrote:
May i speculate further that he is actually just doing whatever the hell he is told to do?
ofc he is. But he's the face they gave to this mess. Read European newspapers - It's always Merkel but not "Merkel and her team of advisors".
That's how politics work - You do what your minions tell you and if it works, you earn the fame, if not, you are the one getting lynched.
edit #2:
I am afraid that the current situation results from most of the NK regime being old as sh*t. They know, they won't live long enough to make a stable government work, so why not even cut every contact to the outside world, declare war to everyone and trap the whole population inside your country, telling them you are in the middle of a holy war against the crazy capitalists.
They know their plans failed due to their power hungry actions to create a military driven state full of zombie soldiers.
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On April 11 2013 23:33 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 23:31 TerribleTrioJon wrote:
We've merely been speculating on Kim Jong Un's intent behind these actions. Credible ones seems to be that he's going after more appeasement deals, and getting dissidents in tow, shoring up his leadership, and establishing respect.
At least how some of the media has portrayed it, not everyone is happy with the current situation and there has been purported indication that a lot of old brass in the NK military question his resolve and leadership. The youngling is raw and untested, and thus we have a volatile situation, as he's almost a King Joffery type character that is even more hard to read (sorry for the GoT analogy). May i speculate further that he is actually just doing whatever the hell he is told to do?
Well of course, there are people behind the scenes influencing him. And that's why it's so hard to predict and speculate, he doesn't have an established persona or character. So we don't know if he's a hard-headed strong individual who set his own strategy, someone who listens and weighs ideas from advisers and carefully picks his own path, or someone who's being completely played by a few powerful influential individuals behind the scenes. Granted, the intelligence agencies know far more than we do about this, but still, there's not much knowledge that the general public can go on.
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Yep its true, there's not much to go on. But if i had to speculate,and i do because i'm like that, i would say that his father was the strong personality who actually was willing to compromise occasionally to get what his country needed, against the wishes of others in his government. This calming influence, i would suggest, is now gone.
Pure speculation of course, but i like a story, and that seems to fit for me.
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On April 11 2013 23:42 TerribleTrioJon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 23:33 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 11 2013 23:31 TerribleTrioJon wrote:
We've merely been speculating on Kim Jong Un's intent behind these actions. Credible ones seems to be that he's going after more appeasement deals, and getting dissidents in tow, shoring up his leadership, and establishing respect.
At least how some of the media has portrayed it, not everyone is happy with the current situation and there has been purported indication that a lot of old brass in the NK military question his resolve and leadership. The youngling is raw and untested, and thus we have a volatile situation, as he's almost a King Joffery type character that is even more hard to read (sorry for the GoT analogy). May i speculate further that he is actually just doing whatever the hell he is told to do? Well of course, there are people behind the scenes influencing him. And that's why it's so hard to predict and speculate, he doesn't have an established persona or character. So we don't know if he's a hard-headed strong individual who set his own strategy, someone who listens and weighs ideas from advisers and carefully picks his own path, or someone who's being completely played by a few powerful influential individuals behind the scenes. Granted, the intelligence agencies know far more than we do about this, but still, there's not much knowledge that the general public can go on.
From what I've read it's a power struggle between his aunt and uncle on one side and some of the older generals on the other, his aunt and uncle are the powers behind the throne and want to be more confrontational with the world at least in the short-term to keep their hold on power domestically.
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On April 11 2013 23:36 Prugelhugel wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 23:31 TerribleTrioJon wrote:
We've merely been speculating on Kim Jong Un's intent behind these actions. He is a small dog standing with his back to the wall barking as loud as he can but no one wants to take him serious until he bites someone.
Yup. The question is how long can we deal with that tactic of "crying wolf" until something actually happens.
I think Russia and China's concern as well as the western nations' alarm and precautions is justified. (of course the news will hype and over-dramatize the situation.)
Edit: DeepElemBlues, interesting. If you guys could link some quality reports or articles of his father's or relative's influence on him, I would appreciate it.
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On April 11 2013 23:17 Aveng3r wrote:
I just feel bad for ordinary people in north korea. Imagine if they ever find out how the rest of the world lives and all the shit that their government tells them isnt true?
Your own government lies to u also every day, so what? (the NK's probarly think the same).
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
I think it's becoming increasingly unlikely that NK will get what they want, and that this gambit isn't really worth it.
That artillery strike a few years ago was probably the last chance they had, given that US/SK military involvement went up significantly after that. Doing missile tests when just about every single country in the world tells you not to isn't likely to end well. Not even China really likes NK anymore.
The only bargaining chip they have left is the ability to shell SK, and the moment they play that chip, they lose. They don't have nuclear weapons, and they don't have any allies left. One misstep and it won't end well for them.
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/apr/09/world/la-fg-norkor-missile-20130410
Yet South Korean officials, many of whom have expressed regret that they didn't respond more forcefully to recent provocations from the North, have declared that the South might respond aggressively to any North Korean attack, including by striking North Korean command and control centers.
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Sounds credible but it's all very speculative. I mean there have been rulers who were very young and inexperienced and are some of the best rulers ever known. Or people who were appointed as a puppet but went their own way.
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On April 12 2013 00:34 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 23:17 Aveng3r wrote:
I just feel bad for ordinary people in north korea. Imagine if they ever find out how the rest of the world lives and all the shit that their government tells them isnt true? Your own government lies to u also every day, so what? (the NK's probarly think the same).
it's like pushing someone and stabbing with a knife, 36 times. All violence is wrong, right? No difference at all.
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EPT
