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On February 23 2013 04:00 Dawski wrote:
I guess all it comes down to is that it's yet to be seen if there can be a system in place that is both sustainable and fair. For now I feel like the centre-right pro-business system is still the best of a bad situation. It promotes hard work and success but it doesn't completely leave out welfare/EI for those who were dealt a bad deal. People like me just get in a huff when we're seen as overly traditional when the system they support isn't sustainable
We won't "solve" the right vs left debate here in a PQ thread will we =P. But I think that one of the things to take into account is that center-left societies tend to attenuate social inequalities. Even though some people dislike that because it's sort of an artificial adjustment, it has many tangible positive effects. Obviously it works on poverty, but social equality by itself comes with a LOT of negative effects, which range from criminality to infantile mortality and lower life expectancy, etc.
I always suggest that video, it uses data from the OECD which is reliable: http://www.ted.com/talks/richard_wilkinson.html
There in lies my problem with this whole PQ situation and alot of the arguments in this thread. I won't agree because I don't see culture as important towards self-growth.
Why does it have to be important toward self-growth in order to be important. It's a very personal thing. Our culture is important to us much in the same way that I love my pet even though she doesn't ever do anything to improve my self-growth. It's an emotional tie. Does it trump free speech though? I don't think so, but it deserves some amount of respect regardless.
I believe that if you are receiving equalization payments your goal should be to use them to get to a point where you arn't dependant on them anymore.
Properly targeted social services can have a positive effect on a province or a country's overall productivity though, through maintaining equality rather than directly stimulating the economy. A good example is Quebec's support to families which attempts to yank them out of poverty, thus giving the kids better odds in life of getting specialized jobs that'll make them competitive in a post-globalization world. It's a big deal because kids who come from poor families don't usually pursue higher education, or their dreams.
Hike up the social standing of all the families, increase the odds that they'll have the tools and the drive to accomplish bigger and better things, all while promoting equality.
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On February 22 2013 08:35 Dawski wrote:
I'm going to come at this thread from another angle which I've sort-of pointed myself towards in my previous posts. I want you guys to explain to me why Nationalism and pride in your culture instead of your personal merrits is... well.. a good thing to have.
"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind"
-Albert Einstein
I'm a right-wing person who believes individual freedoms come way before collectivist freedoms. Convince me
edit: (man I edit my posts right after I post them way too often lol)
I'm going to try scope in a topic that's relevant to this thread so that I don't go off topic. Why should the individual freedoms of speach in any language they choose to communicate in be tarnished by the collectivist apparent freedom to preserve their culture?
How many people do you know who live in complete isolation? What I'm trying to ask, is how individual merit can be worth anything at all when there is no one else around to recognize it as merit. Humans are social creatures by nature.
I work for French CBC (Radio-Canada) out in Sudbury Ontario (yes, Radio-Canada exists outside of Québec). Let's put all my cards out on the table : I'm a 22 year old male doing a master's thesis on Franco-ontarian identity in Sudbury (arguably a bastion franco-ontarian culture) between 1968 and 1985. I've lived here all my life. French is my first language. I learned to speak English around age 6-7. I'm a French-Canadian, a Franco-ontarian, a student, a musician a blogger and an archivist. Most of my colleagues are from Québec (all over the province). They have varying thoughts about the PQ, Québec, and the Canadian federation.
Is the PQ right for Québec right now? I don't think so. I don't think the Liberals were either though. Do I think bill 101 has its merits? Yes. The point was to get French back into public space. In a place where the majority are francophone, it makes sense. Have they taken things too far? I think so as well. It would be nice for allophones to post signs in the language of their choice, but I think French needs to retain it's public face in Québec, and in the rest of Canada as well. I say let them post their signs, but just put these other languages at the same level as French.
You see, in Sudbury, French-Canadians make up the biggest ethnic group of the entire city. (Scottsmen, Englishmen and Irishmen are not the same thing). Not all of them still speak French. Still, the signage is probably 99% English (I'm pulling that stat out of my perspective, not actual facts). 29% of Sudburians have French as their FIRST language (latest census). That is nearly one third of the city. The city has a bilingual name, and gets most information out in both languages. When I go to the post office, I know most of the time, I'll get a « sorry I don't speak French ». When I order at a restaurant, I'll probably get an often rude « I DON'T SPEAK FRENCH ». Yet, I live in a bilingual country. This place was once called Sainte-Anne-des-Pins (Ste Anne of the pines).
French has to be normal. For it to be normal, it has to have some place in Canadian society as a whole. This is a choice we made collectively some time ago. This is a choice that is entrenched in our Charter.
Somehow, we still have cases of French-bashing (outside of Québec as well) : http://tagueule.ca/2012/03/07/sorry-i-dont-speak-french-anti-bilingualism-protest-in-cornwall-demands-equality-for-all/ (I wrote the article).
Or even this week when Manitoba unveiled optional bilingual (not unilingual French) licence plates. Just read the comments.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/story/2013/02/19/mb-bilingual-plates-manitoba.html
The saddest thing, is that on the French side of CBC, the news item was centered around « people are bitching about the optional bilingual plates in Manitoba! » not « Manitoba will have optional bilingual plates ».
This whole bilingualism thing has to happen in two directions. Otherwise we're just going to keep making it worse.
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You're right we won't solve a left vs right debate here so i'll try leave it out except for the fact that money spending is a large cause of Canadian tensions. Didn't mean to derail it to that point i'll save my points for a different thread.
Why does it have to be important toward self-growth in order to be important. It's a very personal thing. Our culture is important to us much in the same way that I love my pet even though she doesn't ever do anything to improve my self-growth. It's an emotional tie. Does it trump free speech though? I don't think so, but it deserves some amount of respect regardless.
In my opinion it's only a personal thing because the people of Quebec have had it drilled into them that it's something to be proud of. Legislation shouldn't be based solely on an emotional connection like one you have with your dog. We don't pay towards the legislature to stop peoples feelings from being hurt.
French has to be normal
but I think French needs to retain it's public face in Québec, and in the rest of Canada as well
why does it HAVE to be normal? what is the NEED of any language in a society which has no positive benefits? Like you said the french pretty much must learn english if they want to be recognized by North American businesses. The keeping of the french language and culture is a purely emotional thing based on what, in my opinion, is nationalism. If it's out of respect towards your past ancestors then how about being the most considerate person this world has ever seen? They would be damn proud of that.
My opinion is one that can be portrayed as ignorant and rude. I accept that people will take me that way but that doesn't mean I don't have a point.
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On February 23 2013 04:59 Dawski wrote:
In my opinion it's only a personal thing because the people of Quebec have had it drilled into them that it's something to be proud of. Legislation shouldn't be based solely on an emotional connection like one you have with your dog. We don't pay towards the legislature to stop peoples feelings from being hurt.
Not much more than any other nation in the world. Most if not all cultures are resistant to change or things that threaten the stability of their way of life. I'm not saying that it's good, but it's understandable at the very least. I'd even go so far as to say that any people put in a similar situation would be resistant to a certain extent.
why does it HAVE to be normal? what is the NEED of any language in a society which has no positive benefits? Like you said the french pretty much must learn english if they want to be recognized by North American businesses.
It sounds cheesy to someone like you who has a very practical view of life but we're humans first, not pieces of a system. It's very reductionist of our nature to portray us as gears in a machine. If you told me that you'd ditch English and your ties with your language if Mandarin became the best way to do business, I'd look down at you as a willful slave of capitalism.
If a society's choices should all be toward productivity and efficiency then we might as well all kill ourselves. Not all wealth can be estimated with dollars.
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On February 23 2013 04:59 Dawski wrote:
In my opinion it's only a personal thing because the people of Quebec have had it drilled into them that it's something to be proud of. Legislation shouldn't be based solely on an emotional connection like one you have with your dog. We don't pay towards the legislature to stop peoples feelings from being hurt.
If that's the case, why not have Esperanto be the only language on any sign anywhere. Give me a good reason why that wouldn't work and you'll understand how weak your argument really is.
Show nested quote +but I think French needs to retain it's public face in Québec, and in the rest of Canada as well why does it HAVE to be normal? what is the NEED of any language in a society which has no positive benefits? Like you said the french pretty much must learn english if they want to be recognized by North American businesses. The keeping of the french language and culture is a purely emotional thing based on what, in my opinion, is nationalism. If it's out of respect towards your past ancestors then how about being the most considerate person this world has ever seen? They would be damn proud of that. My opinion is one that can be portrayed as ignorant and rude. I accept that people will take me that way but that doesn't mean I don't have a point.
Why? Because I'm living in this country right now. My parents are living in this country right now. My ancestors did as well, but right now, we do. Right now, I feel like an alien in my country. Every fucking day. That's why. Don't I pay taxes just like everybody else?
How does having French in signage hurt anyone?
Who said there were no positive benefits? How about a bilingual population? Two languages are better than one (be it French, Spanish, German, Swahili, Japanese, whatever). There are just additional precedents towards French in this country that could help justify it's presence.
You're talking about me and most of the people I know like if we don't matter and we never will.
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On February 23 2013 05:04 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 04:59 Dawski wrote:
In my opinion it's only a personal thing because the people of Quebec have had it drilled into them that it's something to be proud of. Legislation shouldn't be based solely on an emotional connection like one you have with your dog. We don't pay towards the legislature to stop peoples feelings from being hurt. Not much more than any other nation in the world. Most if not all cultures are resistant to change or things that threaten the stability of their way of life. I'm not saying that it's good, but it's understandable at the very least. I'd even go so far as to say that any people put in a similar situation would be resistant to a certain extent. Show nested quote +why does it HAVE to be normal? what is the NEED of any language in a society which has no positive benefits? Like you said the french pretty much must learn english if they want to be recognized by North American businesses. It sounds cheesy to someone like you who has a very practical view of life but we're humans first, not pieces of a system. It's very reductionist of our nature to portray us as gears in a machine. If you told me that you'd ditch English and your ties with your language if Mandarin became the best way to do business, I'd look down at you as a willful slave of capitalism. If a society's choices should all be toward productivity and efficiency then we might as well all kill ourselves. Not all wealth can be estimated with dollars.
You sort of seem to make my point. I didn't mean it purely for the business side of life sorry if it sounded like it. I see myself as human first, my beliefs second, and my cultural background doesn't even make the list. I'd learn mandarin in that situation because it would be best way to communicate with my neighbour as well. If my pride and reluctance to change gets in the way of my relationship with my neighbour than it's up to me to deny myself for sake of community.
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I dont understand how you can dismiss 25%-33% of the countrys population as a cultural failure.
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On February 23 2013 05:24 Dawski wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 05:04 Djzapz wrote:On February 23 2013 04:59 Dawski wrote:
In my opinion it's only a personal thing because the people of Quebec have had it drilled into them that it's something to be proud of. Legislation shouldn't be based solely on an emotional connection like one you have with your dog. We don't pay towards the legislature to stop peoples feelings from being hurt. Not much more than any other nation in the world. Most if not all cultures are resistant to change or things that threaten the stability of their way of life. I'm not saying that it's good, but it's understandable at the very least. I'd even go so far as to say that any people put in a similar situation would be resistant to a certain extent. why does it HAVE to be normal? what is the NEED of any language in a society which has no positive benefits? Like you said the french pretty much must learn english if they want to be recognized by North American businesses. It sounds cheesy to someone like you who has a very practical view of life but we're humans first, not pieces of a system. It's very reductionist of our nature to portray us as gears in a machine. If you told me that you'd ditch English and your ties with your language if Mandarin became the best way to do business, I'd look down at you as a willful slave of capitalism. If a society's choices should all be toward productivity and efficiency then we might as well all kill ourselves. Not all wealth can be estimated with dollars. You sort of seem to make my point. I didn't mean it purely for the business side of life sorry if it sounded like it. I see myself as human first, my beliefs second, and my cultural background doesn't even make the list. I'd learn mandarin in that situation because it would be best way to communicate with my neighbour as well. If my pride and reluctance to change gets in the way of my relationship with my neighbour than it's up to me to deny myself for sake of community.
Well that's a particularity of yours. I don't think you can fault people for giving more value to their culture than you do.
Go tell your grandparents that you'd fold to a majority of Chinese people in the sake of productivity and "community" and you'll understand that QC's not particular in its nature. You're special in your willingness to make those sacrifices for the big picture.
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On February 23 2013 05:19 Dugrok wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 04:59 Dawski wrote:
In my opinion it's only a personal thing because the people of Quebec have had it drilled into them that it's something to be proud of. Legislation shouldn't be based solely on an emotional connection like one you have with your dog. We don't pay towards the legislature to stop peoples feelings from being hurt.
If that's the case, why not have Esperanto be the only language on any sign anywhere. Give me a good reason why that wouldn't work and you'll understand how weak your argument really is. Show nested quote +French has to be normal but I think French needs to retain it's public face in Québec, and in the rest of Canada as well why does it HAVE to be normal? what is the NEED of any language in a society which has no positive benefits? Like you said the french pretty much must learn english if they want to be recognized by North American businesses. The keeping of the french language and culture is a purely emotional thing based on what, in my opinion, is nationalism. If it's out of respect towards your past ancestors then how about being the most considerate person this world has ever seen? They would be damn proud of that. My opinion is one that can be portrayed as ignorant and rude. I accept that people will take me that way but that doesn't mean I don't have a point. Why? Because I'm living in this country right now. My parents are living in this country right now. My ancestors did as well, but right now, we do. Right now, I feel like an alien in my country. Every fucking day. That's why. Don't I pay taxes just like everybody else? How does having French in signage hurt anyone? Who said there were no positive benefits? How about a bilingual population? Two languages are better than one (be it French, Spanish, German, Swahili, Japanese, whatever). There are just additional precedents towards French in this country that could help justify it's presence. You're talking about me and most of the people I know like if we don't matter and we never will.
you. are. not. your. culture
you are a human being just like the rest of us and should be seen as such as simple as that.
You and the people I know matter to me as human beings just like me, not as my french-canadian neighbours. Why are two languages better than one? you say it is but I see no proof towards it. In fact from what I've seen in Canada it creates tension.
If that's the case, why not have Esperanto be the only language on any sign anywhere. Give me a good reason why that wouldn't work and you'll understand how weak your argument really is.
Because I'm not arguing for a language that is forced on everyone. I'm asking for everyone to look past culture and emotional ties that seem to intersect with individual rights like the right to freedom of speech. I think it would be great if everyone just accepted themselves a unified language but I wouldn't legislate it.
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On February 23 2013 05:24 Dawski wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 05:04 Djzapz wrote:On February 23 2013 04:59 Dawski wrote:
In my opinion it's only a personal thing because the people of Quebec have had it drilled into them that it's something to be proud of. Legislation shouldn't be based solely on an emotional connection like one you have with your dog. We don't pay towards the legislature to stop peoples feelings from being hurt. Not much more than any other nation in the world. Most if not all cultures are resistant to change or things that threaten the stability of their way of life. I'm not saying that it's good, but it's understandable at the very least. I'd even go so far as to say that any people put in a similar situation would be resistant to a certain extent. why does it HAVE to be normal? what is the NEED of any language in a society which has no positive benefits? Like you said the french pretty much must learn english if they want to be recognized by North American businesses. It sounds cheesy to someone like you who has a very practical view of life but we're humans first, not pieces of a system. It's very reductionist of our nature to portray us as gears in a machine. If you told me that you'd ditch English and your ties with your language if Mandarin became the best way to do business, I'd look down at you as a willful slave of capitalism. If a society's choices should all be toward productivity and efficiency then we might as well all kill ourselves. Not all wealth can be estimated with dollars. You sort of seem to make my point. I didn't mean it purely for the business side of life sorry if it sounded like it. I see myself as human first, my beliefs second, and my cultural background doesn't even make the list. I'd learn mandarin in that situation because it would be best way to communicate with my neighbour as well. If my pride and reluctance to change gets in the way of my relationship with my neighbour than it's up to me to deny myself for sake of community.
And that's probably a good point to bring up. Why AREN'T there more bilingual French/English people in Canada? I would love to share the richness of my culture with more people, but I can't.
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On February 23 2013 05:28 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:
I dont understand how you can dismiss 25%-33% of the countrys population as a cultural failure.
really?... I'm now dismissing the french as a cultural failure?..
Stop taking things so personally! The french culture is dying itself because of outside english influences, you said it yourself. The whole point i've been trying to make for the past couple pages is why is an emotional tie being enforced by legislature
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On February 23 2013 05:30 Dugrok wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 05:24 Dawski wrote:On February 23 2013 05:04 Djzapz wrote:On February 23 2013 04:59 Dawski wrote:
In my opinion it's only a personal thing because the people of Quebec have had it drilled into them that it's something to be proud of. Legislation shouldn't be based solely on an emotional connection like one you have with your dog. We don't pay towards the legislature to stop peoples feelings from being hurt. Not much more than any other nation in the world. Most if not all cultures are resistant to change or things that threaten the stability of their way of life. I'm not saying that it's good, but it's understandable at the very least. I'd even go so far as to say that any people put in a similar situation would be resistant to a certain extent. why does it HAVE to be normal? what is the NEED of any language in a society which has no positive benefits? Like you said the french pretty much must learn english if they want to be recognized by North American businesses. It sounds cheesy to someone like you who has a very practical view of life but we're humans first, not pieces of a system. It's very reductionist of our nature to portray us as gears in a machine. If you told me that you'd ditch English and your ties with your language if Mandarin became the best way to do business, I'd look down at you as a willful slave of capitalism. If a society's choices should all be toward productivity and efficiency then we might as well all kill ourselves. Not all wealth can be estimated with dollars. You sort of seem to make my point. I didn't mean it purely for the business side of life sorry if it sounded like it. I see myself as human first, my beliefs second, and my cultural background doesn't even make the list. I'd learn mandarin in that situation because it would be best way to communicate with my neighbour as well. If my pride and reluctance to change gets in the way of my relationship with my neighbour than it's up to me to deny myself for sake of community. And that's probably a good point to bring up. Why AREN'T there more bilingual French/English people in Canada? I would love to share the richness of my culture with more people, but I can't.
Because there is no need for someone like me in BC to learn French except to share in the richness of an emotional tie which I feel is pure nationalism
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you. are. not. your. culture
you are a human being just like the rest of us and should be seen as such as simple as that.
I never said I was, but I am a part of my culture(s), and more importantly it (they) is (are) a part of me. I grew up playing video games just like you probably did (seeing as we're both on the TL forums). I didn't play Starcraft in French, let me tell you. I found it cool anyway and I never even questioned the fact that it was in English. I just played the game. Culture doesn't limit itself to fine arts. It's not just about musicians and poets. Culture is much broader than that. It's traditions, it's how you treat people. Everything you do is part of YOUR culture. It's not static, it can change.
You and the people I know matter to me as human beings just like me, not as my french-canadian neighbours. Why are two languages better than one? you say it is but I see no proof towards it. In fact from what I've seen in Canada it creates tension.
Here's a good reason why 2 languages are better than one : https://www.google.ca/search?q=learning multiple languages makes you smarter&oq=learning multiple languages makes you smarter&aqs=chrome.0.57.11786&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Hypothetically, not allowing French to be on signage with the same importance as English is forcing a language on everyone as well, isn't it?
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Because there is no need for someone like me in BC to learn French except to share in the richness of an emotional tie which I feel is pure nationalism
Who's nationalism is it? Canada's a bilingual country, right?
and who is forcing you as an individual to learn French?
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On February 23 2013 05:33 Dawski wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 05:28 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:
I dont understand how you can dismiss 25%-33% of the countrys population as a cultural failure.
really?... I'm now dismissing the french as a cultural failure?.. Stop taking things so personally! The french culture is dying itself because of outside english influences, you said it yourself. The whole point i've been trying to make for the past couple pages is why is an emotional tie being enforced by legislature
loll never said it was dying. I said some english lord said it would die within 2-4 generations 250 years ago...
my culture is pretty much alive thank you
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On February 23 2013 05:44 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 05:33 Dawski wrote:On February 23 2013 05:28 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:
I dont understand how you can dismiss 25%-33% of the countrys population as a cultural failure.
really?... I'm now dismissing the french as a cultural failure?.. Stop taking things so personally! The french culture is dying itself because of outside english influences, you said it yourself. The whole point i've been trying to make for the past couple pages is why is an emotional tie being enforced by legislature loll never said it was dying. I said some english lord said it would die within 2-4 generations 250 years ago... my culture is pretty much alive thank you
French isn't, and never was dying. English culture was growing much faster, that's all.
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I just wish people would be more laissez-faire (tee hee!) about the whole thing. Like Dawski, I don't give a shite about English OR French cultural histories or values...
>>Go tell your grandparents that you'd fold to a majority of Chinese people in the sake of productivity and "community" and you'll understand that QC's not particular in its nature. You're special in your willingness to make those sacrifices for the big picture.<<
My grandparents are drunk & inbred. I'm ready for the future, baby.
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On February 23 2013 05:39 Dugrok wrote:Show nested quote + you. are. not. your. culture
you are a human being just like the rest of us and should be seen as such as simple as that. I never said I was, but I am a part of my culture(s), and more importantly it (they) is (are) a part of me. I grew up playing video games just like you probably did (seeing as we're both on the TL forums). I didn't play Starcraft in French, let me tell you. I found it cool anyway and I never even questioned the fact that it was in English. I just played the game. Culture doesn't limit itself to fine arts. It's not just about musicians and poets. Culture is much broader than that. It's traditions, it's how you treat people. Everything you do is part of YOUR culture. It's not static, it can change. Show nested quote +
You and the people I know matter to me as human beings just like me, not as my french-canadian neighbours. Why are two languages better than one? you say it is but I see no proof towards it. In fact from what I've seen in Canada it creates tension.
Here's a good reason why 2 languages are better than one : https://www.google.ca/search?q=learning multiple languages makes you smarter&oq=learning multiple languages makes you smarter&aqs=chrome.0.57.11786&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8Hypothetically, not allowing French to be on signage with the same importance as English is forcing a language on everyone as well, isn't it?
You again are making my point. Culture isn't static and can change. It has for thousands of years and has anything been lost because of it? if the french culture does in fact assimilate like a lot think it will, then in 500 years people will look in a history book about the cool culture that was. Why should we then create such unconstitutional laws to try hold onto this emotional tie? It is in fact unconstitutional, when faced with this I've heard a lot of PQ supporters say that Quebec never actually signed the original constitution as if that was something to be proud of.
The factor that learning a second language may make you smarter is probably the only positive side I'd accept. It's healthy for your brain to switch focus and operations like switching from one language to another. But I don't think that the benefit is so extreme to be worth legislating to keep a dying culture. I'm not bilingual but I believe I have sufficient brain power to make it in my life.
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People in Quebec feel like they share a unique culture. Like any human being, they feel like it is worth preserving. People saying that they don't feel any attachment to their country and culture and don't feel like it should be preserved, even in the face of potential extinction, maybe you should do some introspection to understand the feeling.
Now, is that good or bad? In the grand scheme of things, is cultural diversity a good thing, or a bad thing? Yes, maybe we would be better off with a monoculture, a single language, because there would be more understanding, less wars, etc. Differences can create incomprehension and hate and all that stuff. But the things is, differences are going to appear anyway, regardless of culture, between individuals. So the answer is not to try and diminish the importance of other languages and cultures in our life for the sake of communication, but rather we should celebrate them, because by learning to open ourselves to other cultures and languages, we learn to open ourselves to outcasts in our own culture, our own family, and within us.
Quebec is a good thing for Canada, because it forces english and french Canadians to think about this difficult issue (and thus learning something), and even if most of them are unfortunately kind of stupid in their response. See this thread for examples... If you live in an environment where you only ever read one language, and always see the same artists, I can guarantee you are going to grow on average more stupid than otherwise.
So why protect french, protect the natives, protect small cultures that would die without help of the government or other external means? Because we get more intelligent and mature as a whole by being in contact with them, and a country made of more tolerant, mature and intelligent people will have a brighter future.
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EPT
