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zebaty
19 Posts
If i had to guess why everyone labels them right winged is because everything that`s "right" is bad nowadays... Also please read about their actual policies (nazis) and see if they are not implemented in milder forms almost everywhere in "civilised" world. nazis weren`t all about killing jews and setting up camps... Signed, Extreme right anti nazi | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
All I ever hear about with nazis is how terrible this and that are, I feel like I've only ever heard one side of the argument. It's not too dissimilar with things like the twin towers and the Iraq war. I really want to hear the perspective of the people being ostracised sometimes, especially with nazi's. -Out of the loop- | ||
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TheRealArtemis
687 Posts
On November 14 2012 13:23 zebaty wrote: I dunno if anyone has brought this up but saying nazis were "far right" is anything but true. please do some reading... If i had to guess why everyone labels them right winged is because everything that`s "right" is bad nowadays... Also please read about their actual policies (nazis) and see if they are not implemented in milder forms almost everywhere in "civilised" world. nazis weren`t all about killing jews and setting up camps... Signed, Extreme right anti nazi didnt you know? everybody who is right or far right is a conservative racist, that probably has relatives with nazis, is poor and uneducted. | ||
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shinosai
United States1577 Posts
On November 14 2012 13:26 Cyber_Cheese wrote: Well, I can't speak for everyone, but. All I ever hear about with nazis is how terrible this and that are, I feel like I've only ever heard one side of the argument. It's not too dissimilar with things like the twin towers and the Iraq war. I really want to hear the perspective of the people being ostracised sometimes, especially with nazi's. -Out of the loop- Unless you believe someone can actually justify genocide I'm not sure you're going to hear a meaningful other side. It's not just a matter of perspective (or perhaps it is, but the perspective is the one that most of us have now adopted for good reason)... they committed some of the most terrible crimes conceivable in the eyes of a mostly liberal population with a belief in equal rights and anti-discrimination. The perspective of the Nazi's is I guess that they were trying to further human evolution by breeding a superior race. They were doing humanity a "good" but this isn't supported by science. There's nothing genetically superior about Aryans. | ||
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Wegandi
United States2455 Posts
On November 14 2012 09:25 oneofthem wrote: i had thought you were some kind of harmless oddity before, but when you blame freed black slaves for the racial tensions of the south. seriously? damn those northerners for allowing niggers to vote. gotta take righteous vengeance! not reading the rest of that because you have no idea who i am or what i do. sorry. You have no idea about history, especially not Reconstruction. MotlKe is pretty on point, though a bit off still. Here is what Lee had to say on the matter: Governor, if I had foreseen the use those people designed to make of their victory, there would have been no surrender at Appomattox Courthouse; no sir, not by me. Had I foreseen these results of subjugation, I would have preferred to die at Appomattox with my brave men, my sword in my right hand. While there is speculation on the matter, the point of contention was not necessarily with blacks (as there were more abolitionist groups in the South than the North prior to the War), but with the subjugation of Reconstruction which was Northern Occupation - literally. Many, unfortunately scapegoated blacks and turned bitter. Sad bit of history, unfortunately. Without reconstruction racial tensions would have been dramatically reduced. | ||
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Drake
Germany6146 Posts
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Wegandi
United States2455 Posts
On November 14 2012 17:21 CoR wrote: compared with rest of world germany has nearly NO nazi no extremists ... so i still dont get the sense of this post ... only country in europe with below 5% right parties and still all this posts Germany has always had a minimal liberal segment. Oswald Spengler spoke for the nationalistic-authoritarian school of his time when he wrote: "There are principles in Germany that are detested and disreputable; but on German soil it is only liberalism that is contemptible." Paul Kennedy, of Yale University, writes of "the sheer venom and blind hatred behind so many of the assaults in Germany on Manchesterism." This term, "Manchesterism," was an abusive label — a Schmähwort. As Julius Faucher, a leader of the free trade party, noted in 1870, it was invented by Ferdinand Lassalle, the founder of German socialism. It then went the rounds of the conservative press, finally, as Faucher wrote, coming to "form the alpha and the omega of political wisdom," even for the Prussian government. For decades it was standard even in the supposedly value-neutral scholarly literature. Jakob Mauvillon is perhaps the most studious and influential of German liberalism (though to be fair Wilhelm von Humboldt is not far behind), and we have to go back to the late 18th Century. Honestly though, the term right and left is meaningless, especially when it is never defined and each individual has their own particular thought on the subject. It's better to speak in terms of ideology, policy, etc. At least Europeans still use liberal correctly (e.g. libertarianism). | ||
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pellejohnson
United States1931 Posts
TBH OP I don't give a shit about these neo naziz, I bet they are completely harmless however I do am afraid of all the love for left wing extremist group who take it on themselves to hurt everyone that is to the right side | ||
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CrimsonLotus
Colombia1123 Posts
On November 14 2012 21:30 pellejohnson wrote: Wow this again? I never understood why people always love left wing extremists with all their violence and destruction while hating on right wing extremists who pretty much never case any problem. TBH OP I don't give a shit about these neo naziz, I bet they are completely harmless however I do am afraid of all the love for left wing extremist group who take it on themselves to hurt everyone that is to the right side I think you may be slightly biased. Fox News watcher by any chance? | ||
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HadeCiao
Guatemala81 Posts
Germany is democratic, why not let people believe in what they want to believe. Why is it a problem to be right sided? Because of the past? Dont be ridicilous; this is more than two generations ago. You can be right sided and dont kill millions of innocent people. You can be left sided and kill millions. Whats bad is killing and nobody wants that, so doesnt the NPD. I personally believe people like u just want to act up themselves. Also the newspapers do this... Critising China for communism, critisting right-sided thinking people, criticising Iran: "oh thats so bad, but we are better people". Pretending consternation is selfish and disgusting! | ||
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zalz
Netherlands3704 Posts
On November 14 2012 21:45 HadeCiao wrote: i dont see a problem at all. Personally i am neither right nor left sided. Germany is democratic, why not let people believe in what they want to believe. Why is it a problem to be right sided? Because of the past? Dont be ridicilous; this is more than two generations ago. You can be right sided and dont kill millions of innocent people. You can be left sided and kill millions. Whats bad is killing and nobody wants that, so doesnt the NPD. I personally believe people like u just want to act up themselves. Also the newspapers do this... Critising China for communism, critisting right-sided thinking people, criticising Iran: "oh thats so bad, but we are better people". Pretending consternation is selfish and disgusting! Nothing wrong with bashing totalitarian regimes, be they fake-communists or real-theocracies. | ||
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NexCa
Germany954 Posts
On November 13 2012 01:29 freewareplayer wrote: OP is making me semi angry and to post the topic like he did, is nothing short than a sensationilistic (?) exagerration which everyone who was your mentioned "abitur" should be able to see. "9% embrace far right political views or with the NPD" If you read statistics like this, you need to ask yourself HOW this was determined. I can pick one or 2 random points of the NPD that arent completly outragous, and surely i will find 9 % who agree. Without seeing the actual set of questions which determined this statistics, it isnt worth jackshit ( in case they are somewhere here but i overlooked them i severly apologise ). I am not in any case doubting the Friedrich Ebert Stiftung, in fact i know they do good stuff, as i have been there myself, and even volunteered being a "coach" at school informing people about new right movements and parties, so i even worked in a project by them. However saying 9 % sympathise with the NPD is downright bullshit, seriously, how are you making us look here with your topic man? I dare you to go to the streets in west germany and show me that roughly every 10th person sympathises with the NPD, i dare you, how can you live in germany and believe that, i dont know, or im massively naive, but i dont think its the latter. As a german who despises NPD etc, cause its nothing less than braindeads, it offends me that other people might think 10 % of us thing this way, which we do not. Dont believe Statistics unless you know exactly how they were constructed, its one of the first things you learn at uni for examply in Psychology. I dont mean to offend the op, im sorry, just a bit mad at the title which suggests more than 10 % in germany vote npd, i lold at that. Far fetched from actual reality. good post I never really thought about that (i mean, yea, most statistics are crap), but I think some of those statistics are somewhat truthful. Don't really remember what the DVU was, but I'll get some informations later about them... Just the fact that the media in Germany is not precise in what they do, makes me feel really worried. And they push that one hard | ||
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NeMeSiS3
Canada2972 Posts
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MoltkeWarding
5195 Posts
On November 14 2012 17:42 Wegandi wrote: Germany has always had a minimal liberal segment. Oswald Spengler spoke for the nationalistic-authoritarian school of his time when he wrote: Paul Kennedy, of Yale University, writes of "the sheer venom and blind hatred behind so many of the assaults in Germany on Manchesterism." This term, "Manchesterism," was an abusive label — a Schmähwort. As Julius Faucher, a leader of the free trade party, noted in 1870, it was invented by Ferdinand Lassalle, the founder of German socialism. It then went the rounds of the conservative press, finally, as Faucher wrote, coming to "form the alpha and the omega of political wisdom," even for the Prussian government. For decades it was standard even in the supposedly value-neutral scholarly literature. Jakob Mauvillon is perhaps the most studious and influential of German liberalism (though to be fair Wilhelm von Humboldt is not far behind), and we have to go back to the late 18th Century. Honestly though, the term right and left is meaningless, especially when it is never defined and each individual has their own particular thought on the subject. It's better to speak in terms of ideology, policy, etc. At least Europeans still use liberal correctly (e.g. libertarianism). The terms left and right emerged after the French revolution, when the Ultras who favoured restoration of pre-1789 privileges were on the right, and a confused and disparate group of Bonapartists, Liberals and Jacobin Republicans held the left, while the moderate administration under Louis XVIII and Decazes had to hold the middle-ground, sometimes through the militant suppression of both sides. In the first National Assembly during the Revolution, the factions were seated vertically rather than horizontally, such that by the time of the Terror, the Jacobins were known as the Montagnards, due to their propensity to hold the highest seats in the Assembly. The question of German liberalism brings me back to my original point: that the moderate (or rather, the middle-ground) Revolutionaries of 1848 are still colloquially called liberals in historiography. The Liberals also for the first two decades of the German Empire held a co-dominant position within the Reichstag. Today when the Platz des 18. März celebrates that liberal-constitutionalist legacy, they are merely celebrating the shadows, rather than the character of what German liberalism traditionally was. Among other things, it was considerably more Volkish and anti-cosmopolitan than the aristocratic order with which it was engaged in constant political cleavage. By the time of the economic downturn in the Bismarck-era, protection had become a hot issue, and both the battle lines and the battle might have followed the historical precedent in England in 1830-31, when the agrarians lost their influence in the Tory party under Peel, but for one major disqualification. Apart from the left-liberal splinter group, the Liberals largely came around to making common cause with both the Prussian conservatives, and the Southern Catholics on free trade. On one level they wanted to protect the industries, but on a more fundamental level it was the overwhelming intellectual consensus in Bismarck's Germany against individualism and pluralism, in favour of the Volksgemeinschaft. In some ways, the Liberals whom the Germans celebrate as the proto-democrats of their national history held political values closer to the NPD than the mainstream parties. | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On November 14 2012 11:07 Mallard86 wrote: Tax rates, social policies, entitlement and nationalization would disagree. Tax rates in Europe are all over the place, some have flat tax that US right wingers sometime dream about. But tax rates are in itself not really a good indicators of how far left or right the country is. There are very few nationalized industries in Europe, so I have no idea what you are talking about. And left would be (near) complete nationalization not the few we have. So in that Europe is pretty much in the center with balanced proportion. Social policies. What do you mean by that ? As in social security, healthcare, or do you mean as in gay rights, abortion, religion ? If you mean the latter, yes most of Europe is pretty much left, but that is of course awesome. If the former, universal healthcare is not a sign of left wing policies, as doctors and hospitals can still be private, only insurance is public and even there are exceptions. Pretty much center. The same goes for unemployment benefits, pensions. Problem is that your viewpoint is so far to the right, but you think you are actually close to the center. You are not. Center is where there is balance between the left and right, Europe is pretty much in center as you can get. Some countries are more to the left, some more to the right of course. | ||
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esperanto
Germany357 Posts
On November 14 2012 21:30 pellejohnson wrote: Wow this again? I never understood why people always love left wing extremists with all their violence and destruction while hating on right wing extremists who pretty much never case any problem. TBH OP I don't give a shit about these neo naziz, I bet they are completely harmless however I do am afraid of all the love for left wing extremist group who take it on themselves to hurt everyone that is to the right side There are in fact violent left-wing extremists but the point is, their violence (at least thats the case in germany) is pointed against materialistic goods (luxury cars...) or the government (attacks on policemen during riots). Not a single person died because of this in the last 20 years in germany. (Not that I want to defend this, just to put it in perspective) On the other hand we have 149 cases of racist motivated murder in germany since 1990. 10 of wich were carefully planed and executed by a terrorist group who calls themselves NSU and even made a video about it. | ||
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Rassy
Netherlands2308 Posts
On November 14 2012 23:05 esperanto wrote: There are in fact violent left-wing extremists but the point is, their violence (at least thats the case in germany) is pointed against materialistic goods (luxury cars...) or the government (attacks on policemen during riots). Not a single person died because of this in the last 20 years in germany. (Not that I want to defend this, just to put it in perspective) On the other hand we have 149 cases of racist motivated murder in germany since 1990. 10 of wich were carefully planed and executed by a terrorist group who calls themselves NSU and even made a video about it. Are you sure this is true and not a single person died from left wing extremist violence? I do vaguely remember the bader meinhoff gruppe and the Raf (rotte armee fraction, the succesor of the Bader meinhoff gruppe) and i also vaguely remember that they killed at least one industrial leader in germany. | ||
zatic
Zurich15361 Posts
On November 14 2012 23:19 Rassy wrote: Are you sure this is true and not a single person died from left wing extremist violence? I do vaguely remember the bader meinhoff gruppe and the Raf (rotte armee fraction, the succesor of the Bader meinhoff gruppe) and i also vaguely remember that they killed at least one industrial leader in germany. They did yes, not in the past 20 years though. Which is in stark contrast to the ~ 150 deaths attributed to extreme right ideology over the same time. Which is what esperanto was saying. Even before the body count for the entire RAF is 34, many of which were RAF themselves. The now infamous NSU killed 10 people just over the past 10 years. | ||
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esperanto
Germany357 Posts
On November 14 2012 23:33 zatic wrote: They did yes, not in the past 20 years though. Which is in stark contrast to the ~ 150 deaths attributed to extreme right ideology over the same time. Which is what esperanto was saying. Even before the body count for the entire RAF is 34, many of which were RAF themselves. The now infamous NSU killed 10 people just over the past 10 years. I am sorry, I actually have to correct myself, there have been 2 cases of murder from the RAF since 1990, one in 1991 and one in 1993. | ||
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AngryMag
Germany1040 Posts
On November 14 2012 23:33 zatic wrote: They did yes, not in the past 20 years though. Which is in stark contrast to the ~ 150 deaths attributed to extreme right ideology over the same time. Which is what esperanto was saying. Even before the body count for the entire RAF is 34, many of which were RAF themselves. The now infamous NSU killed 10 people just over the past 10 years. Well the Federal Ministry of the Interior speaks of 58 since the reunion. That means according to said Federal Ministry around ~2.5 people get murdered by rightwing extremists in reunited Germany each year. Germany has 80 million inhabitants and 2.5 rightwing murders every year and yet you speak of rightwing extremism like it would be everywhere and omnipresent. Your argumentation is totally onesided, misinforming and build up on fearmongering on fox news level. EDIT: You (Zatic) is the wrong word. More like the people in this thread who speak of a fast rising rightwing extremist movement in Germany, while using onesided (or just flat out wrong) lines of argumentation. | ||
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