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Latest GMO study : what should we make of it?

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Kukaracha
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
France1954 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-26 15:55:13
September 26 2012 03:07 GMT
#1
The health effects of a Roundup-tolerant genetically modified maize (from 11% in the diet), cultivated with or without Roundup, and Roundup alone (from 0.1 ppb in water), were studied 2 years in rats. In females, all treated groups died 2–3 times more than controls, and more rapidly. This difference was visible in 3 male groups fed GMOs. All results were hormone and sex dependent, and the pathological profiles were comparable. Females developed large mammary tumors almost always more often than and before controls, the pituitary was the second most disabled organ; the sex hormonal balance was modified by GMO and Roundup treatments.

Taken from the original paper (PDF).

This study has made a lot of noise lately, both because of the unusual way it appeared (journalists who had seen it had to sign a non-disclosure agreement that prevented them from writing anything before the "official" day of release) and the extreme conclusions it contained. The aim of Seralini's team was to prove that GMOs are toxic on their own, without the impact of the infamous Roundup pesticid. Here is how it goes : 200 rats are divided in main 4 groups, wich are in turn divided in 2 (male and female).
  • The first is the control group (no NK603, no Roundup)
  • The second is only fed NK603 maize
  • The third is fed NK603 maize and Roundup
  • The fourth is only fed Roundup

The NK 603 maize is homegrown, to ensure that it is not already contaminated with Roundup. Note that of these 200 rats, only 40 are used in the final conclusion (the raw data hasn't been yet published as far as I know).

A controversy sprung over the quality of the paper, as many voices suggested it provided unsufficient data analyzed through a questionable methodology. Is the study really that dubvious?
  1. The albino rat used fo the experiment, called "Sprague Dawley is allegedly extremely prone to cancers. Nearly 80% are struck with cancer after two years of life. They are also very sensitive to stress and changes in their diet.
    -->These concerns are indubitably legitimate. However, it is not limited to this study : Sprague Dawley rats are among the most commonly used animals in lab testing! Not only that, they are the race used in the validation process of the NK603 maize(PDF).
  2. GMOs are already tested and no problem has been found yet.
    -->The studies are limited to 90 days, which represents less than 10% of the tested rats' life span.
  3. The number of tested rats (200) is too low to draw any sort of conclusions
    -->True, and yet it is much more than the number usually seen.
  4. The CRIIGEN and DR. Seralini are openly anti-GMO.
    -->They are indeed. Both their data and the data provided by Monsanto is to observed precaciously.

Here is an article that sums the situation pretty well :
NK603 is a type of corn, or maize, that has been engineered to make it resistant to Roundup and is used by farmers to maximise yields.
The authors of the study said it was the first experiment in GM food that followed rats throughout their lifespan, as opposed to just 90 days.
Premature death and tumours were far higher among rats, especially females, that had been fed the GM corn or given ordinary corn supplemented by water to which low concentrations of Roundup had been added, they said.
At the 14-month stage of experiment, no animals in the control groups showed any signs of cancer, but among females in the "treated" groups, tumours affected between 10 and 30 percent of the rodents, the study said.
"By the beginning of the 24th month, 50-80 percent of female animals had developed tumours in all treated groups, with up to three tumours per animal, whereas only 30 percent of controls were affected," it said.
Males which fell sick suffered liver damage, developed kidney and skin tumours and digestive problems.

But other scientists said the study was too underpowered, had questionable gaps in the data and raised doubts more about Roundup than the NK603 corn itself.
It entailed 200 rats divided into 10 experimental groups, of which only 20 were "controls" fed ordinary corn and plain water.
This sample size is too small to rule out statistical quirks, especially as the rats were of the "Sprague-Dawley" laboratory strain, which is notoriously susceptible to mammary tumours, said Maurice Moloney, research director at Britain's Rothamsted agricultural research station.

Source (AFP)

What can we conclude from this? Not much, it seems. The study provides insufficient data, although the innovative approach calls for more investigation : can GMOs really affect the human body on the long term? The reproduction of a long-term analysis would give us a good answer about the legitimacy of our fears in regards to genetically modified food. However, the results from one type of GMO don't tell much about GMOs as a whole.
The most interesting aspect revealed by this affair is the problematic state of scientific control and review over the biotech industry, a problem that we can probably extend to other fields (think pharmaceuticals). Validation tests are severely lacking, while most extensive studies come either from Monsanto themselves or direct opponents. Monsanto has also quite a history, as the maker of the Agent Orange and the center of many controversies (PCB pollution, Indian green revolution, etc).
More about Monsanto :
+ Show Spoiler +
"Marie-Monique Robin travelled the world to meet scientists and political figures in order to investigate Monsanto's actions, controversy over GM crops, and the effects of the globalization of industrial agriculture on farmers in the developing world. Those interviewed include Shiv Chopra, a Canadian researcher who was fired by Health Canada for revealing an attempted bribe by Monsanto regarding the attempted introduction of bovine growth hormone into Canada. The author of the research met several independent scientists around the world who tried to warn the political authorities about the use of genetically modified seeds. According to Robin, most of these scientists actually lost their jobs as a consequence of their speaking out. The "revolving door syndrome" is also pointed out in the research as a threat to the quality and independence of the scientific conclusions about the effects of Monsanto products, especially those reached by the Food and Drug Administration.

Robin travels to India, Mexico, Argentina, and Paraguay to see how Monsanto's genetically modified organisms (GMOs) have affected local farmers using it for their crops. The claim is that suicide rates of farmers in India have increased as farmers are finding it harder to earn a living using more expensive Monsanto seeds that, despite claims, still require specific pesticide and fertilizer (see above). Mexico, having banned GMOs, is trying to limit contamination and crossbreeding from subsidized U.S. GMO corn imported through the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) for eating. Argentinian farmers are giving up farming and moving to urban slums because they cannot compete with GM crops and are finding their farms, livestock, and children being negatively affected by pesticide runoff. Paraguay was forced to accept GMO crops as it was being imported anonymously and grown en masse, so prohibiting its export would have damaged the economy. In all cases genetic variation is reduced as a result of monocropping and ownership is increasingly concentrated."


Closing words by Pr. Eisen, from the University of California, Berkeley :
It’s a really messed up field. The vast majority of research on GMO safety – on both sides – is done by people out to prove something rather than investigate something. This affects every aspect of the work, from study design, to execution, interpretation and publicity.

This particular study was so poorly designed – the highly sensitized line, the inexcusably small number of animals – that you didn’t even have to look at the ridiculous statements from the lead author (like “GMOs are a pesticide sponge”) to see that it was biased.

The result of all of this severely tainted work (and there’s plenty from the pro-GMO side too) is that the really good science in the field gets drowned out, and isn’t taken seriously because people just assume that it, too, must be biased. Total mess.



PS : further explanation from TL posters :
+ Show Spoiler +
AUGcodon
This is probably the most relevant graph for discussion


Mortality graph

Fig. 1. Mortality of rats fed GMO treated or not with Roundup, and effects of Roundup alone. Rats were fed with NK603 GM maize (with or without application of Roundup) at three different doses (11, 22, 33% in their diet: thin, medium and bold lines, respectively) compared to the substantially equivalent closest isogenic non-GM maize (control,
dotted line). Roundup was administrated in drinking water at 3 increasing doses, same symbols (environmental (A), MRL in agricultural GMOs (B) and half of minimal agricultural levels (C), see Section 2). Lifespan during the experiment for the control group is represented by the vertical bar ± SEM (grey area). In bar histograms, the causes of
mortality before the grey area are detailed in comparison to the controls (0). In black are represented the necessary euthanasia because of suffering in accordance with ethical
rules (tumors over 25% body weight, more than 25% weight loss, hemorrhagic bleeding, etc.); and in hatched areas, spontaneous mortality.
[image loading]

Cancer graph

Legend:Fig. 2. Largest non-regressive tumors in rats fed GMO treated or not by Roundup, and effects of Roundup alone. The symbols of curves and treatments are explained in the caption of Fig. 1. The largest tumors were palpable during the experiment and numbered from 20 mm in diameter for males and 17.5 mm for females. Above this size, 95% of
growths were non-regressive tumors. Summary of all tumors are shown in the bar histograms: black, non regressive largest tumors; white, small internal tumors; grey,metastases.

Direct link to the graph

GMO represent just the the crop, GMO + R is the crop and pesticide, and R is just the pesticide. This graph basically tells you how fast rats develop the tumor. The dotted line represent the rats who do not eat GMO. The continuous line represent the rats that are fed by the GMO. the thinnest line is when their diet consist 11% of the GMO, the medium bolded line is 22%, and really bolded line is 33%.

So, when you look at females, you see those fed in GMO develop tumors much faster than themselves. the effect is less dramatic in males.

+ Show Spoiler +
On September 19 2012 22:41 Heh_ wrote:
Okay, so I read the whole paper, courtesy of AUGcodon (start, if you know what I mean). I'll present my interpretation of the paper as unbiased as I can possibly get:

Figures:
Figure 1:
They looked at the lifespan of the mice and the causes of death. It’s pretty similar across the board. The authors nitpicked at a few cases where the Roundup-treated mice developed some problems relative to control, but it’s not noteworthy at all. When you’re looking at populations, 1 or 2 outliers hardly matter; the overall trend matters more. Problem is that their population size is hilariously small (10). Females got more mammary tumors… no shit Sherlock.

Figure 2:
They looked at tumor sizes. The females had tumors that were big.. really big that it caused obvious problems. Untreated controls appear to have smaller tumors, but by a small margin except for 1 group. No statistics done though.. no way to get anything with such a small sample size so we don’t even know if that difference is statistically significant.

Figure 3:
Gross pictures of tumors, tumors everywhere. While they claim that this is the trend observed, it could also have been a deliberate selection of pictures in order to justify the trend they want to observe. They did do some quantification in Table 2 and it does indeed seem like the Roundup-treated rats have more tumors though. More elaboration below.

Figure 4:
A pretty useless picture, trying to show how bad the cancer can get. It really contributes nothing to the rest of the article, no point commenting more.

Figure 5:
They claim to show that the physiological parameters are similar between groups. Why do I use the phrase “claim to”? Because their graphs make totally no sense. They don’t show which groups are getting compared, nor any biologically relevant numbers, just some really weird coefficients. Figure 5B is a bigger offender; this time they look at individual parameters and can’t even label the Y axis in an easily-understood manner. All I can decipher is that controls are different from treated rats. The authors claimed that they were statistically significant, but I shall not go into a long tangent about statistical manipulation, because this figure reeks of that. Also, the first time I’m seeing error bars in this paper. Too bad it has no meaning at all..

Others:
Problems with methods:
The strain of rat used is particularly susceptible to mammary tumors, which is what the researchers found. One source is found here (http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/content/27/5/1037.abstract). They did find many other tumors, but again no statistics. I have a concern that they could have been biased when examining the rats (more observant for tumors in the strains that they want them to appear in), but let’s hope that they were unbiased, or at least took some steps to make the examination unbiased.

Problems with statistics:
Each group has only 10 animals (100 of each gender, divided into 10 groups). That’s way too little for statistical analysis. You need a lot more to establish any statistical significance from the results. Anyway, from the graphs, there’s no significance at all.

In conclusion:
Basically, the paper states that the survival of the treated and control rats are similar, although the treated rats have a non-statistically significant increased tumor incidence. The biggest flaw of this paper is really the number of rats per group; 10 is wayyy to little. 50 would be good, 100 would make for convincing statistics. The last figure was really digging deep for something to comment on, but it’s really a waste of space. All in all, they made a point, but they did not prove it beyond reasonable doubt.

Unrelated:
You’re not supposed to house rats in cages alone. They’re supposed to be socially housed, according to IACUC (Institutional Animal Care and Use Committee) guidelines.
Le long pour l'un pour l'autre est court (le mot-à-mot du mot "amour").
Jumbled
Profile Joined September 2010
1543 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-26 06:46:42
September 26 2012 06:46 GMT
#2
There was a thread on this previously that got closed, mostly because the paper has almost no scientific merit. I don't know whether you've had a look through the actual paper, but I took a quick read when this first came up, and the thing was a horrible shambles that should never have passed peer review.

There's a decent summary of what went wrong on Ars Technica if you're interested:
http://arstechnica.com/science/2012/09/anti-gmo-researchers-used-science-publication-to-manipulate-the-press/
iPlaY.NettleS
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Australia4377 Posts
September 26 2012 09:21 GMT
#3
If GMO is harmless why does Monsantos canteen ban GMO foods?
http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/gm-food-banned-in-monsanto-canteen-737948.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7PvoI6gvQs
Jumbled
Profile Joined September 2010
1543 Posts
September 26 2012 12:27 GMT
#4
On September 26 2012 18:21 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
If GMO is harmless why does Monsantos canteen ban GMO foods?
http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/gm-food-banned-in-monsanto-canteen-737948.html

Most likely because there's a huge amount of hysteria in the UK over GM foods. Many businesses make a point of avoiding GM products there simply because it's easier than dealing with the public paranoia.
ArcticRaven
Profile Joined August 2011
France1406 Posts
September 26 2012 12:37 GMT
#5
Great writeup ! Thanks for this.
[Govie] Wierd shit, on a 6 game AP winning streak with KOTL in the trench. I searched gandalf quotes and spammed them all game long, trenchwarfare247, whateva it takes!
iPlaY.NettleS
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Australia4377 Posts
September 26 2012 12:38 GMT
#6
On September 26 2012 21:27 Jumbled wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 26 2012 18:21 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
If GMO is harmless why does Monsantos canteen ban GMO foods?
http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/gm-food-banned-in-monsanto-canteen-737948.html

Most likely because there's a huge amount of hysteria in the UK over GM foods. Many businesses make a point of avoiding GM products there simply because it's easier than dealing with the public paranoia.

Even if you dismiss the valid health concerns over GM you still have the issue of herbicide resistant 'superweeds'.
And have the scientists in the US figured out why all the bees are dying over there yet or is it all still a big 'mystery'?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7PvoI6gvQs
Probe1
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States17920 Posts
September 26 2012 12:44 GMT
#7
On September 26 2012 15:46 Jumbled wrote:
There was a thread on this previously that got closed, mostly because the paper has almost no scientific merit. I don't know whether you've had a look through the actual paper, but I took a quick read when this first came up, and the thing was a horrible shambles that should never have passed peer review.

There's a decent summary of what went wrong on Ars Technica if you're interested:
http://arstechnica.com/science/2012/09/anti-gmo-researchers-used-science-publication-to-manipulate-the-press/

He was the one that opened the previous thread as well. To his credit this thread is much less openly bias'd against genetically modified crops than the first thread. Kukaracha has improved a bad thread but unfortunately cannot fix a broken study.

The points from the previous thread (which I am tempted to repost) still hold up. It was a flawed study and although I do not hold GMO infallible- there is no legitimate evidence in this study.
우정호 KT_VIOLET 1988 - 2012 While we are postponing, life speeds by
Probe1
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States17920 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-26 12:51:35
September 26 2012 12:49 GMT
#8
From the previous thread:
On September 19 2012 22:41 Heh_ wrote:
Okay, so I read the whole paper, courtesy of AUGcodon (start, if you know what I mean). I'll present my interpretation of the paper as unbiased as I can possibly get:

Figures:
Figure 1:
They looked at the lifespan of the mice and the causes of death. It’s pretty similar across the board. The authors nitpicked at a few cases where the Roundup-treated mice developed some problems relative to control, but it’s not noteworthy at all. When you’re looking at populations, 1 or 2 outliers hardly matter; the overall trend matters more. Problem is that their population size is hilariously small (10). Females got more mammary tumors… no shit Sherlock.

Figure 2:
They looked at tumor sizes. The females had tumors that were big.. really big that it caused obvious problems. Untreated controls appear to have smaller tumors, but by a small margin except for 1 group. No statistics done though.. no way to get anything with such a small sample size so we don’t even know if that difference is statistically significant.

Figure 3:
Gross pictures of tumors, tumors everywhere. While they claim that this is the trend observed, it could also have been a deliberate selection of pictures in order to justify the trend they want to observe. They did do some quantification in Table 2 and it does indeed seem like the Roundup-treated rats have more tumors though. More elaboration below.

Figure 4:
A pretty useless picture, trying to show how bad the cancer can get. It really contributes nothing to the rest of the article, no point commenting more.

Figure 5:
They claim to show that the physiological parameters are similar between groups. Why do I use the phrase “claim to”? Because their graphs make totally no sense. They don’t show which groups are getting compared, nor any biologically relevant numbers, just some really weird coefficients. Figure 5B is a bigger offender; this time they look at individual parameters and can’t even label the Y axis in an easily-understood manner. All I can decipher is that controls are different from treated rats. The authors claimed that they were statistically significant, but I shall not go into a long tangent about statistical manipulation, because this figure reeks of that. Also, the first time I’m seeing error bars in this paper. Too bad it has no meaning at all..

Others:
Problems with methods:

The strain of rat used is particularly susceptible to mammary tumors, which is what the researchers found. One source is found here (http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/content/27/5/1037.abstract). They did find many other tumors, but again no statistics. I have a concern that they could have been biased when examining the rats (more observant for tumors in the strains that they want them to appear in), but let’s hope that they were unbiased, or at least took some steps to make the examination unbiased.

Problems with statistics:
Each group has only 10 animals (100 of each gender, divided into 10 groups). That’s way too little for statistical analysis. You need a lot more to establish any statistical significance from the results. Anyway, from the graphs, there’s no significance at all.

In conclusion:
Basically, the paper states that the survival of the treated and control rats are similar, although the treated rats have a non-statistically significant increased tumor incidence. The biggest flaw of this paper is really the number of rats per group; 10 is wayyy to little. 50 would be good, 100 would make for convincing statistics. The last figure was really digging deep for something to comment on, but it’s really a waste of space. All in all, they made a point, but they did not prove it beyond reasonable doubt.

Unrelated:
You’re not supposed to house rats in cages alone. They’re supposed to be socially housed, according to IACUC (Institutional Animal Care and Use Committee) guidelines.



On Sep 19 2012 22:35 GreenManalishi wrote:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/19/us-gmcrops-safety-idUSBRE88I0L020120919

The study had too small a sample size and Seralini has made his career off of writing anti-GM literature. Profoundly flawed study on a subject where there have already been 100s of studies performed. No blind testing, no description of the methodology in the controls, and non conclusive results.

Sounds like a nice piece of anti-GM propaganda with no real scientific merit.
우정호 KT_VIOLET 1988 - 2012 While we are postponing, life speeds by
NeonFox
Profile Joined January 2011
2373 Posts
September 26 2012 12:52 GMT
#9
This was already brought up and the study was defined as non conclusive and biased. I don't trust Monsanto and don't like their business practice but this study is bullshit.
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
September 26 2012 13:02 GMT
#10
On September 26 2012 21:38 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 26 2012 21:27 Jumbled wrote:
On September 26 2012 18:21 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
If GMO is harmless why does Monsantos canteen ban GMO foods?
http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/gm-food-banned-in-monsanto-canteen-737948.html

Most likely because there's a huge amount of hysteria in the UK over GM foods. Many businesses make a point of avoiding GM products there simply because it's easier than dealing with the public paranoia.

Even if you dismiss the valid health concerns over GM you still have the issue of herbicide resistant 'superweeds'.
And have the scientists in the US figured out why all the bees are dying over there yet or is it all still a big 'mystery'?

We dismiss invalid health concerns, not the valid ones. Herbicide resistant weeds as a result of using GMO is issue that should be solved by cost-benefit analysis as I see no problem with them per se. Also there are no ,even slightly well evidenced, links between GM and dying bees. The only proposed ones are based on artificial feeding of bees with high-fructose corn syrup. Even if that was the cause it would just mean that beekeepers should just not do that.
iPlaY.NettleS
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Australia4377 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-26 13:17:34
September 26 2012 13:17 GMT
#11
On September 26 2012 22:02 mcc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 26 2012 21:38 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
On September 26 2012 21:27 Jumbled wrote:
On September 26 2012 18:21 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
If GMO is harmless why does Monsantos canteen ban GMO foods?
http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/gm-food-banned-in-monsanto-canteen-737948.html

Most likely because there's a huge amount of hysteria in the UK over GM foods. Many businesses make a point of avoiding GM products there simply because it's easier than dealing with the public paranoia.

Even if you dismiss the valid health concerns over GM you still have the issue of herbicide resistant 'superweeds'.
And have the scientists in the US figured out why all the bees are dying over there yet or is it all still a big 'mystery'?

We dismiss invalid health concerns, not the valid ones. Herbicide resistant weeds as a result of using GMO is issue that should be solved by cost-benefit analysis as I see no problem with them per se. Also there are no ,even slightly well evidenced, links between GM and dying bees. The only proposed ones are based on artificial feeding of bees with high-fructose corn syrup. Even if that was the cause it would just mean that beekeepers should just not do that.

Obviously the more herbicide resistant superweeds in a crop the less the farmer will get for that crop.
Then you've got the fact that farmers are now using freaking KEVLAR tyres because the GMO crops are so tough they are ripping through tyres that would normally last 5 seasons within one or two seasons! link : http://www.autoblog.com/2012/08/02/gmo-crops-so-tough-that-farmers-are-turning-to-kevlar-tractor-ti/

So like you said about cost-benefit analysis-I think farmers will start moving away from GM crops because of the decreased yields, increased inputs like the new kevlar tyres and finally the fact that Europe pays less for GM crops than non-GM.I believe around $7 per tonne less for GM canola than GM free, thats if they even buy it as the people in Europe just don't want it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7PvoI6gvQs
INeedSpoons
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
Colombia41 Posts
September 26 2012 13:23 GMT
#12
It is truly a sad thing for almost all of the information about biotechnology and pharmaceutical industries are so biased. Since much of the industry is just mega-corporations butting heads and trying to dominate everything, and the FDA is dominated with ex-Monsanto employees.

Personal health aside though, there are still several negative environmental impacts to growing GM crops, the most prominent of which is of coarse the infamous "superweeds." With more pesticide being needed, this destroys the soil, leaving them the only thing that can grow in it are the GM crops, leaving Monsanto with many needy farmers. However, if GM crops do indeed have more crop yield, then where can we draw the line which is more environmentally friendly, as hypothetically it would require less land for farming that would be forest or another habitat for animals.

All things aside, the one who suffers the most is the consumer in these cases, which is why I think is still important to avoid GM foods whenever possible, until someone that has the resources to do such a study should use them to make a valid study and not just try to make more profit one way or the other.

Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-26 13:35:25
September 26 2012 13:35 GMT
#13
Well GMO is basicly the same as the one obtained by selection. If some GMO is faulty and causes health issues just remove it and get some other one?
Derrida
Profile Joined March 2011
2885 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-26 13:47:23
September 26 2012 13:39 GMT
#14
Isn't the 'golden rule' for statistical significance at least 30 observations? Why would anyone conduct an experiment with 10?

And if you are going to make a weak scientific study with manipulated facts, why not make it a strong study with better manipulated facts? I don't see the logic.
#1 Grubby Fan.
Redox
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany24794 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-26 14:06:47
September 26 2012 13:56 GMT
#15
As a biologist its beyond me how an informed person could even get the idea that modifying the genetic code of an organism somehow makes it harmful to eat it.

When natural mutations occur, or when we randomly mutate a genome using mutagens like EMS or radiation people think that is fine, but if we do a specific mutation by inserting one gene its somehow a problem.
So basically, if we dont know what we do and mutate a whole genome randomly everyone is cool with it, while when we know what we mutate they object to it. Its just retarded.

I guess overall its just a lack of knowledge that fuels the GMO scare. You fear what you dont understand.
Off-season = best season
Integra
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Sweden5626 Posts
September 26 2012 14:34 GMT
#16
Since it's not actually been put through a scientific peer-review process it cannot really be viewed as legit.
"Dark Pleasure" | | I survived the Locust war of May 3, 2014
elt
Profile Joined July 2010
Thailand1092 Posts
September 26 2012 15:04 GMT
#17
Don't know why OP describes it as 'innovative'. Though I'm mostly only familiar with econometric studies the method pursued seems to be fairly standard. Everything else about the study was wrong though, and I cringe at the liberties they take with statistical inference because it would be the kind of stuff that would get me failed my some of my courses.

The problem is that the scientists who did this can get away with it because the general public which applies pressure on governments and whatnot are not familiar with proper statistical methods and as long as announcements like these come with "published" and "peer reviewed" people are willing to accept it. That said, it's a wide-spread problem and at risk of sounding elitist the only way around it would be to take lightly papers not published in leading journals for their field (not 100% problem free admittedly).

On a lighter note I am always amused by term 'power' in the statistical sense.
(Under Construction)
KelvaroN
Profile Joined May 2003
Finland33 Posts
September 26 2012 15:24 GMT
#18
On September 26 2012 22:56 Redox wrote:
As a biologist its beyond me how an informed person could even get the idea that modifying the genetic code of an organism somehow makes it harmful to eat it.

When natural mutations occur, or when we randomly mutate a genome using mutagens like EMS or radiation people think that is fine, but if we do a specific mutation by inserting one gene its somehow a problem.
So basically, if we dont know what we do and mutate a whole genome randomly everyone is cool with it, while when we know what we mutate they object to it. Its just retarded.

I guess overall its just a lack of knowledge that fuels the GMO scare. You fear what you dont understand.


As a medical student I have to agree. I fail to see the whole point of the study. Obviously the Roundup ingested together with the food by the rodents can cause all kinds of illnesses. The genetic mutations themselves should be completely innocuous unless the mutated (or inserted) gene product is somehow toxic for the human (e.g. highly potent human hormone), which would be pretty dumb, while the normal or lacking product isn't.
Boblion
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
France8043 Posts
September 26 2012 15:40 GMT
#19
On September 26 2012 22:39 Derrida wrote:
Isn't the 'golden rule' for statistical significance at least 30 observations? Why would anyone conduct an experiment with 10?

And if you are going to make a weak scientific study with manipulated facts, why not make it a strong study with better manipulated facts? I don't see the logic.

I have read an interview of the guy who made the study and he says that Monsanto didn't make a stat test with 30 observations for this maize either. So basicly he is arguing that his work might be incomplete but that there are no better studies available for this variety.


fuck all those elitists brb watching streams of elite players.
ZeaL.
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States5955 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-26 15:56:20
September 26 2012 15:54 GMT
#20
On September 26 2012 22:56 Redox wrote:
As a biologist its beyond me how an informed person could even get the idea that modifying the genetic code of an organism somehow makes it harmful to eat it.

When natural mutations occur, or when we randomly mutate a genome using mutagens like EMS or radiation people think that is fine, but if we do a specific mutation by inserting one gene its somehow a problem.
So basically, if we dont know what we do and mutate a whole genome randomly everyone is cool with it, while when we know what we mutate they object to it. Its just retarded.

I guess overall its just a lack of knowledge that fuels the GMO scare. You fear what you dont understand.


Well you could insert genes that encode, say, neurotoxins into corn too. Or you could just tweak the corn so it grows faster with more nutrition. The point is genetic modification isn't intrinsically bad or good, it can be used to do both and people are right to be wary of GMOs that come out of corporations like Monsanto which seem to be more profit motivated than anything else. On the other hand, anti-GM people are frequently luddites who don't understand biology and seem to think that genetic modification makes organisms suddenly super evil and dangerous.

Edit: Not sure why this thread is open again, this paper has been shown to be almost completely useless. It would be better to start a thread on GM/non-GM foods without this ridiculously biased paper in the OP. This is like starting a climate change thread with a paper from Exxon showing how climate change isn't real.
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