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On August 29 2012 02:15 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 01:47 KingAce wrote:
Both Islam and christianity have the doctrine. "Do not kill." No exceptions. No they don't... There are plenty of situations in which it is perfectly legal to kill. Thou shalt not kill is the first commandmend. That is on those two lovely tablets that Moses carries down the mountain. Could you tell me god commands the jews to do shortly after that? Something about genocide... Also, the penalty for apostasy is pretty clear in Islam. Christianity never really orders you to go out and kill anyone, but since their god is the same, you can't really argue that god seems to be firmly on the pro-murder side. You can't be jealous either, but if you read the books you will quickly learn that there isn't a fictional character more jealous than the Abrahamic god.
Lol, 'thou shalt not kill' is not the first commandment. I get what you're trying to say, but if you have no idea what you're talking about don't pretend you do.
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United States42594 Posts
On August 29 2012 03:43 SayGen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 03:40 KwarK wrote:On August 29 2012 03:37 SayGen wrote:On August 29 2012 03:29 Elsid wrote:On August 29 2012 03:25 SayGen wrote:On August 29 2012 03:08 Warlock40 wrote:On August 29 2012 02:52 SayGen wrote:On August 29 2012 01:44 MiQ wrote:On August 29 2012 01:37 SayGen wrote:On August 29 2012 01:07 ddrddrddrddr wrote:
[quote]
Women included? What do you mean by that? It's better to behead men than women? It was a sexist comment. Though I'm sure he'll claim chivalry, we both know it was discrimination. No sex is worth saving over the other. Woman and children 1st means little in a world of equality. So you label me as sexist yet go out of your way to say we shouldn't judge other countries and cultures that treat their own people like shit. Yeah okay, keep on spreading your wise words of wisdom. Stupid double standard bullshit. I don't label you anything. I call it like I see it. You made a sexist comment that put one sex over the other. That is not equal. No man is better than any woman and vice versa according to 'equality'. you do know what the "=" symbol means right? That country can treat it's people however it wants, and we can treat people in our country however we want. If that country doesn't like it, they can have a revolution/coup/etc and change the law- just like we here in America can. I'm against social imperialism. Just cause you don't like it, doens't make us right and them wrong. I think it's horrible that event happened. Am I going to do anything about it- nope. Why? CAUSE IT ISN'T MY COUNTRY AND I WILL NOT FORCE THEM TO DO WHAT I THINK IS RIGHT. Such a ridiculous belief. You act as if there is some grand dogma protecting the rights of nations and national governments to do as they please regardless of individual rights. You say that no one should have any say outside of his nation. Why should anyone have any say outside of his own province? Outside of his hometown? Outside of his own household? Why should anyone have any say on anything other than his personal actions? This is the problem with cultural relativism. There may sometimes be gray areas between right and wrong, but in this case, it is clear that the Taliban are firmly in the wrong. Does that justify use of force? Perhaps not. But the reasons against use of force definitely wouldn't rely on as silly or ignorant an argument as "CAUSE IT ISN'T MY COUNTRY". You couldn't be more wrong. The people choose their government. The government is the people. PEOPLE run and operate the government. If it was bad they would over throw it, or leave. There are no walls on their border they can walk out. They choose to live under those laws, and they have the right to do so. The fact that your trying to push your ideals of right and wrong on others countries is sickening. I mean that truly. It is beyond despicable. How dare you call yourself the moral right in the universe. Humans are FREE and independent. We are not limbs of one being. Your imperialistic values are the problem with the world today. People like you are why we will never have a lasting peace and prosperity. If I don't like how things are done in my country, USA- I can always leave. Your trying to push 1 WORLD law- which just so happens to be YOUR LAW. How would you like it if they were the ones who came to your country and talked about how vile you were, how wrong you were. How would you like it if they pushed their beliefs on you? I will continue to push for FREEDOM. You can continue to be an imperialist if you want, you have your right to an opinion and unlike you I respect your right to an opinion and ur right to leave under whatever laws you think are 'right'. I'm sure the 17 murdered in this case are plenty happy with their freedom. Do not on one hand speak about freedom and how you think these people should be free to do as they wish and then so quickly dismiss the freedoms of the murdered who simply danced. Where is their freedom? If they wanted to dance they shouldn't of done it where they did, again if they didn't like the law- get it changed, or leave the country. Freedom doens't work with stupid people. Either A) They knew the law and choose to break it. or B) They were ignorant of the law and they have my pity. I hold people accountable for their choices. They choose to live there. They choose to live under those laws. They choose to risk death. They died. I see no problem here. Had they been Americans, in America- I would have a polar opposite position on this issue. Most embyros don't yet possess the skills required to shift to the womb of a woman in another country. I feel their failure to choose the country of their birth shouldn't be held against them. Your remarks only hold value if they are being forced to reside in their country agaisnt their will and lack the means to escape. Even if the above sentence is true- they still have the option to change the law/ overthrow the government. Again (for I tihnk the 4th time) If you don't like it leave.
Which country which values people brought up in the Afghan tribal education system and has an open door immigration policy with open land to give to people who only know farming do you advocate they go to? And how do they get there?
You're living in a dream world of privilege.
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Let's take this piece by piece.
The people choose their government. The government is the people. PEOPLE run and operate the government.
If it was bad they would over throw it, or leave. There are no walls on their border they can walk out. They choose to live under those laws, and they have the right to do so.
It is not always true that a government rules through the popular support of its people. That its people do not rise up to overthrow this government or leave the area that this government has dominion over is not a sign in any way of legitimacy. A great example would be puppet governments. Clearly you can't disagree that puppet governments installed by foreign powers (such as the US) have no popular legitimacy. You can't disagree that some governments are so oppressive as to stop their people from enacting change or even leaving.
Another good example is the Taliban, which itself is a puppet government installed by Pakistan. It has never held any popular mandate, not before the international occupation, and certainly not now from its southeastern strongholds.
It is complete ignorance to believe that any and every person in Afghanistan or any nation with an oppressive government can simply rise up to change it. The idea that uprisings and rebellions will succeed or fail based on whether or not they hold popular support is a myth. Thirteen American colonies were able to secure independence from Britain despite the fact that less than half of their populations were in support of independence, one in five actually remaining loyal to Britain. Meanwhile, in more recent times, look at Hungary, Tibet, Czechoslovakia. The will of the majority had no say against the might of force. Look at Syria. Many commentators have been expecting President Bashar al-Assad's reign to end for months now, due to the minority nature of his government imposing its will on a hostile majority. However, his downfall is by no means inevitable, as his forces continue to make gains in taking back urban areas. Let's not forget that his father crushed a similar uprising as well, leaving twenty thousand dead.
Simply leaving the country is not really a strong option, either. First of all, Afghanistan is one of the poorest countries on the planet, with very little infrastructure or social capital. Second, much of it is rural and tribal in nature. The people have ties to the land; they cannot just up and leave because the government is hostile. In some cases, such as North Korea, the people cannot leave because the government is hostile.
The fact that your trying to push your ideals of right and wrong on others countries is sickening. I mean that truly. It is beyond despicable. How dare you call yourself the moral right in the universe.
I didn't once say that I was the moral right in the universe. But to extrapolate from certain cases of moral ambiguity (of which there are many) the idea that there is no moral right and wrong is absurd to the highest degree.
Humans are FREE and independent. We are not limbs of one being.
And yet you ignore individual human rights when you grant nations the rights to do as they please against their own populations. You contradict yourself with this statement because your absurd worship of the sovereignty of the state treats individual human beings as limbs of this one state, to be manipulated as the state desires.
How would you like it if they were the ones who came to your country and talked about how vile you were, how wrong you were. How would you like it if they pushed their beliefs on you?
If their beliefs were correct, I would very much like it.*
I will continue to push for FREEDOM. You can continue to be an imperialist if you want, you have your right to an opinion and unlike you I respect your right to an opinion and ur right to leave under whatever laws you think are 'right'.
You have a very twisted, or at best, naive, view of freedom. Freedom is a quality such that one person's freedom will always place limitations on another person's freedom, so we can only exact approximations of it. Allowing national governments to do as they please, even if it means slaughtering their people, is clearly not the best approximation of freedom possible.
A final point / recap: this is the basis of your argument.
1. People are free to do as they wish.
2. Government is only and always just an extension of the will of the people.
3. Therefore, governments are free to do as they wish.
I've debunked your argument by disproving the second point, but even if it holds true, the third point is not valid, either. I don't want to go in depth in this topic, but it should be obvious that the rights of the minority must be respected against the will of the majority.
*So as not to walk into a trap, I'll clarify on this point. If the government of nation A is unjust, and the population of nation A cannot change it by itself, the government of nation B is obligated to step in to change it only if the benefits will outweigh the costs. It its clear now that neither the international occupation of Afghanistan nor the mainly American occupation of Iraq yielded benefits worth the immense cost.
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On August 29 2012 04:09 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 03:43 SayGen wrote:On August 29 2012 03:40 KwarK wrote:On August 29 2012 03:37 SayGen wrote:On August 29 2012 03:29 Elsid wrote:On August 29 2012 03:25 SayGen wrote:On August 29 2012 03:08 Warlock40 wrote:On August 29 2012 02:52 SayGen wrote:On August 29 2012 01:44 MiQ wrote:On August 29 2012 01:37 SayGen wrote:
[quote]
It was a sexist comment.
Though I'm sure he'll claim chivalry, we both know it was discrimination.
No sex is worth saving over the other.
Woman and children 1st means little in a world of equality.
So you label me as sexist yet go out of your way to say we shouldn't judge other countries and cultures that treat their own people like shit. nah Yeah okay, keep on spreading your wise words of wisdom. Stupid double standard bullshit. I don't label you anything. I call it like I see it. You made a sexist comment that put one sex over the other. That is not equal. No man is better than any woman and vice versa according to 'equality'. you do know what the "=" symbol means right? That country can treat it's people however it wants, and we can treat people in our country however we want. If that country doesn't like it, they can have a revolution/coup/etc and change the law- just like we here in America can. I'm against social imperialism. Just cause you don't like it, doens't make us right and them wrong. I think it's horrible that event happened. Am I going to do anything about it- nope. Why? CAUSE IT ISN'T MY COUNTRY AND I WILL NOT FORCE THEM TO DO WHAT I THINK IS RIGHT. Such a ridiculous belief. You act as if there is some grand dogma protecting the rights of nations and national governments to do as they please regardless of individual rights. You say that no one should have any say outside of his nation. Why should anyone have any say outside of his own province? Outside of his hometown? Outside of his own household? Why should anyone have any say on anything other than his personal actions? This is the problem with cultural relativism. There may sometimes be gray areas between right and wrong, but in this case, it is clear that the Taliban are firmly in the wrong. Does that justify use of force? Perhaps not. But the reasons against use of force definitely wouldn't rely on as silly or ignorant an argument as "CAUSE IT ISN'T MY COUNTRY". You couldn't be more wrong. The people choose their government. The government is the people. PEOPLE run and operate the government. If it was bad they would over throw it, or leave. There are no walls on their border they can walk out. They choose to live under those laws, and they have the right to do so. The fact that your trying to push your ideals of right and wrong on others countries is sickening. I mean that truly. It is beyond despicable. How dare you call yourself the moral right in the universe. Humans are FREE and independent. We are not limbs of one being. Your imperialistic values are the problem with the world today. People like you are why we will never have a lasting peace and prosperity. If I don't like how things are done in my country, USA- I can always leave. Your trying to push 1 WORLD law- which just so happens to be YOUR LAW. How would you like it if they were the ones who came to your country and talked about how vile you were, how wrong you were. How would you like it if they pushed their beliefs on you? I will continue to push for FREEDOM. You can continue to be an imperialist if you want, you have your right to an opinion and unlike you I respect your right to an opinion and ur right to leave under whatever laws you think are 'right'. I'm sure the 17 murdered in this case are plenty happy with their freedom. Do not on one hand speak about freedom and how you think these people should be free to do as they wish and then so quickly dismiss the freedoms of the murdered who simply danced. Where is their freedom? If they wanted to dance they shouldn't of done it where they did, again if they didn't like the law- get it changed, or leave the country. Freedom doens't work with stupid people. Either A) They knew the law and choose to break it. or B) They were ignorant of the law and they have my pity. I hold people accountable for their choices. They choose to live there. They choose to live under those laws. They choose to risk death. They died. I see no problem here. Had they been Americans, in America- I would have a polar opposite position on this issue. Most embyros don't yet possess the skills required to shift to the womb of a woman in another country. I feel their failure to choose the country of their birth shouldn't be held against them. Your remarks only hold value if they are being forced to reside in their country agaisnt their will and lack the means to escape. Even if the above sentence is true- they still have the option to change the law/ overthrow the government. Again (for I tihnk the 4th time) If you don't like it leave. Which country which values people brought up in the Afghan tribal education system and has an open door immigration policy with open land to give to people who only know farming do you advocate they go to? And how do they get there? You're living in a dream world of privilege.
What Kwark said.. This poster's idea of individualism seems to be the notion of making the dumbest remarks around. Moral relativism born out of privilege and ignorance
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"how the beheadings are justified"
why would you even ask such a question?
of course you cant justify it
they do it to show their power over the people - its just terror
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So on one hand you keep talking about freedom and then on the other you say "freedom doesn't work with stupid people" and that they should have just obeyed the law which doesn't foster freedom.
Did it occur to you that Freedom is sometimes allowing people to be more restrictive?
IE: Am I being punished cause I have to stop my car at a red light? Are my rights being violated. No they arn't.
I am here in America and I follow American law whether I like each particular law or not.
Also it is not realistic to just say "Well move country" or "Then change government".
Why not? If they had the ability to dance, they had the ability to walk. Why couldn't they leave?
And to answer your question about if I'd like it if their cultural values were pushed on me, no I wouldn't do you know why? I wouldn't because their cultural values are threats to freedom, they limit and inhibit the freedom of individuals to do as they wish.
Did it occur to you that Freedom is sometimes allowing people to be more restrictive?
IE: Am I being punished cause I have to stop my car at a red light? Are my rights being violated. No they aren't.
I am here in America and I follow American law whether I like each particular law or not.
Freedom is like anything else in life. There are extremes to freedom. How much freedom? How little freedom.
It is all just perspective. I draw the line that we are free to live in whatever oppressed lifestyle we want, so long as that oppression is a matter of choice. IE: You choose to live in a Muslim controlled country, might want to start obey their laws.
What I do not support is people saying they are right (After all we all think we are right and everyone is wrong).
What I do not support is going around to other sovereign nations and telling them what to do cause YOU said so.
What I do not support is one WORLD law. We are Human, we are capable of creating law and should be able to choose how and what law we live under. If people want to be oppressed let them. It's not my place to tell them they can't be oppressed. I like America, I like more freedoms. They don't- I'm fine with that.
They leave me alone, I leave them alone.
Learn to COEXIST.
Learn to stop being the AGGRESSOR, the INVADER, the PROBLEM.
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On August 29 2012 04:08 kwantumszuperpozishn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 03:40 KwarK wrote:On August 29 2012 03:37 SayGen wrote:On August 29 2012 03:29 Elsid wrote:On August 29 2012 03:25 SayGen wrote:On August 29 2012 03:08 Warlock40 wrote:On August 29 2012 02:52 SayGen wrote:On August 29 2012 01:44 MiQ wrote:On August 29 2012 01:37 SayGen wrote:On August 29 2012 01:07 ddrddrddrddr wrote:
[quote]
Women included? What do you mean by that? It's better to behead men than women? It was a sexist comment. Though I'm sure he'll claim chivalry, we both know it was discrimination. No sex is worth saving over the other. Woman and children 1st means little in a world of equality. So you label me as sexist yet go out of your way to say we shouldn't judge other countries and cultures that treat their own people like shit. Yeah okay, keep on spreading your wise words of wisdom. Stupid double standard bullshit. I don't label you anything. I call it like I see it. You made a sexist comment that put one sex over the other. That is not equal. No man is better than any woman and vice versa according to 'equality'. you do know what the "=" symbol means right? That country can treat it's people however it wants, and we can treat people in our country however we want. If that country doesn't like it, they can have a revolution/coup/etc and change the law- just like we here in America can. I'm against social imperialism. Just cause you don't like it, doens't make us right and them wrong. I think it's horrible that event happened. Am I going to do anything about it- nope. Why? CAUSE IT ISN'T MY COUNTRY AND I WILL NOT FORCE THEM TO DO WHAT I THINK IS RIGHT. Such a ridiculous belief. You act as if there is some grand dogma protecting the rights of nations and national governments to do as they please regardless of individual rights. You say that no one should have any say outside of his nation. Why should anyone have any say outside of his own province? Outside of his hometown? Outside of his own household? Why should anyone have any say on anything other than his personal actions? This is the problem with cultural relativism. There may sometimes be gray areas between right and wrong, but in this case, it is clear that the Taliban are firmly in the wrong. Does that justify use of force? Perhaps not. But the reasons against use of force definitely wouldn't rely on as silly or ignorant an argument as "CAUSE IT ISN'T MY COUNTRY". You couldn't be more wrong. The people choose their government. The government is the people. PEOPLE run and operate the government. If it was bad they would over throw it, or leave. There are no walls on their border they can walk out. They choose to live under those laws, and they have the right to do so. The fact that your trying to push your ideals of right and wrong on others countries is sickening. I mean that truly. It is beyond despicable. How dare you call yourself the moral right in the universe. Humans are FREE and independent. We are not limbs of one being. Your imperialistic values are the problem with the world today. People like you are why we will never have a lasting peace and prosperity. If I don't like how things are done in my country, USA- I can always leave. Your trying to push 1 WORLD law- which just so happens to be YOUR LAW. How would you like it if they were the ones who came to your country and talked about how vile you were, how wrong you were. How would you like it if they pushed their beliefs on you? I will continue to push for FREEDOM. You can continue to be an imperialist if you want, you have your right to an opinion and unlike you I respect your right to an opinion and ur right to leave under whatever laws you think are 'right'. I'm sure the 17 murdered in this case are plenty happy with their freedom. Do not on one hand speak about freedom and how you think these people should be free to do as they wish and then so quickly dismiss the freedoms of the murdered who simply danced. Where is their freedom? If they wanted to dance they shouldn't of done it where they did, again if they didn't like the law- get it changed, or leave the country. Freedom doens't work with stupid people. Either A) They knew the law and choose to break it. or B) They were ignorant of the law and they have my pity. I hold people accountable for their choices. They choose to live there. They choose to live under those laws. They choose to risk death. They died. I see no problem here. Had they been Americans, in America- I would have a polar opposite position on this issue. Most embyros don't yet possess the skills required to shift to the womb of a woman in another country. I feel their failure to choose the country of their birth shouldn't be held against them. Correction, ALL embryo's. But this is an idiotic argument. They become conscious adults with free will and judgment. Staying there even if they have the choice and ability to leave is a choice to be bound by the laws and practices of the land.
Well said.
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On August 29 2012 04:08 nbaker wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 02:15 zalz wrote:On August 29 2012 01:47 KingAce wrote:
Both Islam and christianity have the doctrine. "Do not kill." No exceptions. No they don't... There are plenty of situations in which it is perfectly legal to kill. Thou shalt not kill is the first commandmend. That is on those two lovely tablets that Moses carries down the mountain. Could you tell me god commands the jews to do shortly after that? Something about genocide... Also, the penalty for apostasy is pretty clear in Islam. Christianity never really orders you to go out and kill anyone, but since their god is the same, you can't really argue that god seems to be firmly on the pro-murder side. You can't be jealous either, but if you read the books you will quickly learn that there isn't a fictional character more jealous than the Abrahamic god. Lol, 'thou shalt not kill' is not the first commandment. I get what you're trying to say, but if you have no idea what you're talking about don't pretend you do.
Most people don't know anything about the scriptures. Hell, most Christains dont know the scriptures only what they get preached by someone on a stage/pulpit.
Murder,killing is justified in all 3 of the major religions (Judaism, Muslims, Christains)
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On August 29 2012 04:17 SayGen wrote:
So on one hand you keep talking about freedom and then on the other you say "freedom doesn't work with stupid people" and that they should have just obeyed the law which doesn't foster freedom.
Did it occur to you that Freedom is sometimes allowing people to be more restrictive?
IE: Am I being punished cause I have to stop my car at a red light? Are my rights being violated. No they arn't.
I am here in America and I follow American law whether I like each particular law or not.
Also it is not realistic to just say "Well move country" or "Then change government".
Why not? If they had the ability to dance, they had the ability to walk. Why couldn't they leave?
And to answer your question about if I'd like it if their cultural values were pushed on me, no I wouldn't do you know why? I wouldn't because their cultural values are threats to freedom, they limit and inhibit the freedom of individuals to do as they wish.
Did it occur to you that Freedom is sometimes allowing people to be more restrictive?
IE: Am I being punished cause I have to stop my car at a red light? Are my rights being violated. No they aren't.
I am here in America and I follow American law whether I like each particular law or not.
Freedom is like anything else in life. There are extremes to freedom. How much freedom? How little freedom.
It is all just perspective. I draw the line that we are free to live in whatever oppressed lifestyle we want, so long as that oppression is a matter of choice. IE: You choose to live in a Muslim controlled country, might want to start obey their laws.
What I do not support is people saying they are right (After all we all think we are right and everyone is wrong).
What I do not support is going around to other sovereign nations and telling them what to do cause YOU said so.
What I do not support is one WORLD law. We are Human, we are capable of creating law and should be able to choose how and what law we live under. If people want to be oppressed let them. It's not my place to tell them they can't be oppressed. I like America, I like more freedoms. They don't- I'm fine with that.
They leave me alone, I leave them alone.
Learn to COEXIST.
Learn to stop being the AGGRESSOR, the INVADER, the PROBLEM.
You clearly don't understand the concept of freedom of ones ownself but not freedom to harm others. If you run red lights in your car that's you endangering the lives of others, this is not a freedom you have. Dancing has no victim.
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On August 29 2012 04:09 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 03:43 SayGen wrote:On August 29 2012 03:40 KwarK wrote:On August 29 2012 03:37 SayGen wrote:On August 29 2012 03:29 Elsid wrote:On August 29 2012 03:25 SayGen wrote:On August 29 2012 03:08 Warlock40 wrote:On August 29 2012 02:52 SayGen wrote:On August 29 2012 01:44 MiQ wrote:On August 29 2012 01:37 SayGen wrote:
[quote]
It was a sexist comment.
Though I'm sure he'll claim chivalry, we both know it was discrimination.
No sex is worth saving over the other.
Woman and children 1st means little in a world of equality.
So you label me as sexist yet go out of your way to say we shouldn't judge other countries and cultures that treat their own people like shit. Yeah okay, keep on spreading your wise words of wisdom. Stupid double standard bullshit. I don't label you anything. I call it like I see it. You made a sexist comment that put one sex over the other. That is not equal. No man is better than any woman and vice versa according to 'equality'. you do know what the "=" symbol means right? That country can treat it's people however it wants, and we can treat people in our country however we want. If that country doesn't like it, they can have a revolution/coup/etc and change the law- just like we here in America can. I'm against social imperialism. Just cause you don't like it, doens't make us right and them wrong. I think it's horrible that event happened. Am I going to do anything about it- nope. Why? CAUSE IT ISN'T MY COUNTRY AND I WILL NOT FORCE THEM TO DO WHAT I THINK IS RIGHT. Such a ridiculous belief. You act as if there is some grand dogma protecting the rights of nations and national governments to do as they please regardless of individual rights. You say that no one should have any say outside of his nation. Why should anyone have any say outside of his own province? Outside of his hometown? Outside of his own household? Why should anyone have any say on anything other than his personal actions? This is the problem with cultural relativism. There may sometimes be gray areas between right and wrong, but in this case, it is clear that the Taliban are firmly in the wrong. Does that justify use of force? Perhaps not. But the reasons against use of force definitely wouldn't rely on as silly or ignorant an argument as "CAUSE IT ISN'T MY COUNTRY". You couldn't be more wrong. The people choose their government. The government is the people. PEOPLE run and operate the government. If it was bad they would over throw it, or leave. There are no walls on their border they can walk out. They choose to live under those laws, and they have the right to do so. The fact that your trying to push your ideals of right and wrong on others countries is sickening. I mean that truly. It is beyond despicable. How dare you call yourself the moral right in the universe. Humans are FREE and independent. We are not limbs of one being. Your imperialistic values are the problem with the world today. People like you are why we will never have a lasting peace and prosperity. If I don't like how things are done in my country, USA- I can always leave. Your trying to push 1 WORLD law- which just so happens to be YOUR LAW. How would you like it if they were the ones who came to your country and talked about how vile you were, how wrong you were. How would you like it if they pushed their beliefs on you? I will continue to push for FREEDOM. You can continue to be an imperialist if you want, you have your right to an opinion and unlike you I respect your right to an opinion and ur right to leave under whatever laws you think are 'right'. I'm sure the 17 murdered in this case are plenty happy with their freedom. Do not on one hand speak about freedom and how you think these people should be free to do as they wish and then so quickly dismiss the freedoms of the murdered who simply danced. Where is their freedom? If they wanted to dance they shouldn't of done it where they did, again if they didn't like the law- get it changed, or leave the country. Freedom doens't work with stupid people. Either A) They knew the law and choose to break it. or B) They were ignorant of the law and they have my pity. I hold people accountable for their choices. They choose to live there. They choose to live under those laws. They choose to risk death. They died. I see no problem here. Had they been Americans, in America- I would have a polar opposite position on this issue. Most embyros don't yet possess the skills required to shift to the womb of a woman in another country. I feel their failure to choose the country of their birth shouldn't be held against them. Your remarks only hold value if they are being forced to reside in their country agaisnt their will and lack the means to escape. Even if the above sentence is true- they still have the option to change the law/ overthrow the government. Again (for I tihnk the 4th time) If you don't like it leave. Which country which values people brought up in the Afghan tribal education system and has an open door immigration policy with open land to give to people who only know farming do you advocate they go to? And how do they get there? You're living in a dream world of privilege.
You can come to American without a dollar in your pocket or one single set of skills.
If you can come into the highest GDP nation in the world with nothing, you can do anything with a little effort.
You continue to underestimate a motivated indivisual.
If you really want something, you will find a way.
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On August 29 2012 04:21 Elsid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 04:17 SayGen wrote:
So on one hand you keep talking about freedom and then on the other you say "freedom doesn't work with stupid people" and that they should have just obeyed the law which doesn't foster freedom.
Did it occur to you that Freedom is sometimes allowing people to be more restrictive?
IE: Am I being punished cause I have to stop my car at a red light? Are my rights being violated. No they arn't.
I am here in America and I follow American law whether I like each particular law or not.
Also it is not realistic to just say "Well move country" or "Then change government".
Why not? If they had the ability to dance, they had the ability to walk. Why couldn't they leave?
And to answer your question about if I'd like it if their cultural values were pushed on me, no I wouldn't do you know why? I wouldn't because their cultural values are threats to freedom, they limit and inhibit the freedom of individuals to do as they wish.
Did it occur to you that Freedom is sometimes allowing people to be more restrictive?
IE: Am I being punished cause I have to stop my car at a red light? Are my rights being violated. No they aren't.
I am here in America and I follow American law whether I like each particular law or not.
Freedom is like anything else in life. There are extremes to freedom. How much freedom? How little freedom.
It is all just perspective. I draw the line that we are free to live in whatever oppressed lifestyle we want, so long as that oppression is a matter of choice. IE: You choose to live in a Muslim controlled country, might want to start obey their laws.
What I do not support is people saying they are right (After all we all think we are right and everyone is wrong).
What I do not support is going around to other sovereign nations and telling them what to do cause YOU said so.
What I do not support is one WORLD law. We are Human, we are capable of creating law and should be able to choose how and what law we live under. If people want to be oppressed let them. It's not my place to tell them they can't be oppressed. I like America, I like more freedoms. They don't- I'm fine with that.
They leave me alone, I leave them alone.
Learn to COEXIST.
Learn to stop being the AGGRESSOR, the INVADER, the PROBLEM.
You clearly don't understand the concept of freedom of ones ownself but not freedom to harm others. If you run red lights in your car that's you endangering the lives of others, this is not a freedom you have. Dancing has no victim.
Smoking weed doens't hurt anyone either and that is illegal.
Prositution doesn't hurt anyone, and that is illegal.
I could go on...
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On August 29 2012 04:23 SayGen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 04:21 Elsid wrote:On August 29 2012 04:17 SayGen wrote:
So on one hand you keep talking about freedom and then on the other you say "freedom doesn't work with stupid people" and that they should have just obeyed the law which doesn't foster freedom.
Did it occur to you that Freedom is sometimes allowing people to be more restrictive?
IE: Am I being punished cause I have to stop my car at a red light? Are my rights being violated. No they arn't.
I am here in America and I follow American law whether I like each particular law or not.
Also it is not realistic to just say "Well move country" or "Then change government".
Why not? If they had the ability to dance, they had the ability to walk. Why couldn't they leave?
And to answer your question about if I'd like it if their cultural values were pushed on me, no I wouldn't do you know why? I wouldn't because their cultural values are threats to freedom, they limit and inhibit the freedom of individuals to do as they wish.
Did it occur to you that Freedom is sometimes allowing people to be more restrictive?
IE: Am I being punished cause I have to stop my car at a red light? Are my rights being violated. No they aren't.
I am here in America and I follow American law whether I like each particular law or not.
Freedom is like anything else in life. There are extremes to freedom. How much freedom? How little freedom.
It is all just perspective. I draw the line that we are free to live in whatever oppressed lifestyle we want, so long as that oppression is a matter of choice. IE: You choose to live in a Muslim controlled country, might want to start obey their laws.
What I do not support is people saying they are right (After all we all think we are right and everyone is wrong).
What I do not support is going around to other sovereign nations and telling them what to do cause YOU said so.
What I do not support is one WORLD law. We are Human, we are capable of creating law and should be able to choose how and what law we live under. If people want to be oppressed let them. It's not my place to tell them they can't be oppressed. I like America, I like more freedoms. They don't- I'm fine with that.
They leave me alone, I leave them alone.
Learn to COEXIST.
Learn to stop being the AGGRESSOR, the INVADER, the PROBLEM.
You clearly don't understand the concept of freedom of ones ownself but not freedom to harm others. If you run red lights in your car that's you endangering the lives of others, this is not a freedom you have. Dancing has no victim. Smoking weed doens't hurt anyone either and that is illegal. Prositution doesn't hurt anyone, and that is illegal. I could go on...
Yep and I would support legislation making those legal 
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On August 29 2012 04:17 SayGen wrote:
Also it is not realistic to just say "Well move country" or "Then change government".
Why not? If they had the ability to dance, they had the ability to walk. Why couldn't they leave?
Do you realise how retarded that sounds? I can't believe you actually mean this shit your spewing.
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On August 29 2012 04:23 Elsid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 04:23 SayGen wrote:On August 29 2012 04:21 Elsid wrote:On August 29 2012 04:17 SayGen wrote:
So on one hand you keep talking about freedom and then on the other you say "freedom doesn't work with stupid people" and that they should have just obeyed the law which doesn't foster freedom.
Did it occur to you that Freedom is sometimes allowing people to be more restrictive?
IE: Am I being punished cause I have to stop my car at a red light? Are my rights being violated. No they arn't.
I am here in America and I follow American law whether I like each particular law or not.
Also it is not realistic to just say "Well move country" or "Then change government".
Why not? If they had the ability to dance, they had the ability to walk. Why couldn't they leave?
And to answer your question about if I'd like it if their cultural values were pushed on me, no I wouldn't do you know why? I wouldn't because their cultural values are threats to freedom, they limit and inhibit the freedom of individuals to do as they wish.
Did it occur to you that Freedom is sometimes allowing people to be more restrictive?
IE: Am I being punished cause I have to stop my car at a red light? Are my rights being violated. No they aren't.
I am here in America and I follow American law whether I like each particular law or not.
Freedom is like anything else in life. There are extremes to freedom. How much freedom? How little freedom.
It is all just perspective. I draw the line that we are free to live in whatever oppressed lifestyle we want, so long as that oppression is a matter of choice. IE: You choose to live in a Muslim controlled country, might want to start obey their laws.
What I do not support is people saying they are right (After all we all think we are right and everyone is wrong).
What I do not support is going around to other sovereign nations and telling them what to do cause YOU said so.
What I do not support is one WORLD law. We are Human, we are capable of creating law and should be able to choose how and what law we live under. If people want to be oppressed let them. It's not my place to tell them they can't be oppressed. I like America, I like more freedoms. They don't- I'm fine with that.
They leave me alone, I leave them alone.
Learn to COEXIST.
Learn to stop being the AGGRESSOR, the INVADER, the PROBLEM.
You clearly don't understand the concept of freedom of ones ownself but not freedom to harm others. If you run red lights in your car that's you endangering the lives of others, this is not a freedom you have. Dancing has no victim. Smoking weed doens't hurt anyone either and that is illegal. Prositution doesn't hurt anyone, and that is illegal. I could go on... Yep and I would support legislation making those legal
I didn't ask whether or not you would support those actions. I'm making the point that whether it directly hurts/helps someone is irrelevent. You can create and enforce laws of any nature if the people submit.
If dancing was a crime, then it was punishable, they could get away with it cause the people choose to make that acceptable behavior and they have the right/freedom to do so.
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On August 29 2012 04:26 MiQ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 04:17 SayGen wrote:
Also it is not realistic to just say "Well move country" or "Then change government".
Why not? If they had the ability to dance, they had the ability to walk. Why couldn't they leave?
Do you realise how retarded that sound? I can't believe you actually mean this shit your spewing.
Your about to get reported... 15 posts to your name.
You've PM'd me with insults.
Your not adding to the conversation, your only attacking me.
TL may not be for you.
WTB a mod.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On August 29 2012 04:26 SayGen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 04:23 Elsid wrote:On August 29 2012 04:23 SayGen wrote:On August 29 2012 04:21 Elsid wrote:On August 29 2012 04:17 SayGen wrote:
So on one hand you keep talking about freedom and then on the other you say "freedom doesn't work with stupid people" and that they should have just obeyed the law which doesn't foster freedom.
Did it occur to you that Freedom is sometimes allowing people to be more restrictive?
IE: Am I being punished cause I have to stop my car at a red light? Are my rights being violated. No they arn't.
I am here in America and I follow American law whether I like each particular law or not.
Also it is not realistic to just say "Well move country" or "Then change government".
Why not? If they had the ability to dance, they had the ability to walk. Why couldn't they leave?
And to answer your question about if I'd like it if their cultural values were pushed on me, no I wouldn't do you know why? I wouldn't because their cultural values are threats to freedom, they limit and inhibit the freedom of individuals to do as they wish.
Did it occur to you that Freedom is sometimes allowing people to be more restrictive?
IE: Am I being punished cause I have to stop my car at a red light? Are my rights being violated. No they aren't.
I am here in America and I follow American law whether I like each particular law or not.
Freedom is like anything else in life. There are extremes to freedom. How much freedom? How little freedom.
It is all just perspective. I draw the line that we are free to live in whatever oppressed lifestyle we want, so long as that oppression is a matter of choice. IE: You choose to live in a Muslim controlled country, might want to start obey their laws.
What I do not support is people saying they are right (After all we all think we are right and everyone is wrong).
What I do not support is going around to other sovereign nations and telling them what to do cause YOU said so.
What I do not support is one WORLD law. We are Human, we are capable of creating law and should be able to choose how and what law we live under. If people want to be oppressed let them. It's not my place to tell them they can't be oppressed. I like America, I like more freedoms. They don't- I'm fine with that.
They leave me alone, I leave them alone.
Learn to COEXIST.
Learn to stop being the AGGRESSOR, the INVADER, the PROBLEM.
You clearly don't understand the concept of freedom of ones ownself but not freedom to harm others. If you run red lights in your car that's you endangering the lives of others, this is not a freedom you have. Dancing has no victim. Smoking weed doens't hurt anyone either and that is illegal. Prositution doesn't hurt anyone, and that is illegal. I could go on... Yep and I would support legislation making those legal I didn't ask whether or not you would support those actions. I'm making the point that whether it directly hurts/helps someone is irrelevent. You can create and enforce laws of any nature if the people submit. If dancing was a crime, then it was punishable, they could get away with it cause the people choose to make that acceptable behavior and they have the right/freedom to do so.
Yes and those laws are stupid? I don't see the angle of your argument, when people get sent to prison for prostitution or smoking weed I think it's retarded and ass backwards too.
So just because something can be punished it should be punished? What ridiculousness is this?
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On August 29 2012 04:27 SayGen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 04:26 MiQ wrote:On August 29 2012 04:17 SayGen wrote:
Also it is not realistic to just say "Well move country" or "Then change government".
Why not? If they had the ability to dance, they had the ability to walk. Why couldn't they leave?
Do you realise how retarded that sound? I can't believe you actually mean this shit your spewing. Your about to get reported... 15 posts to your name. You've PM'd me with insults. Your not adding to the conversation, your only attacking me. TL may not be for you. WTB a mod.
Haha okay, so much for freedom eh? If you don't like it, you can always move forums?
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What I do not support is people saying they are right (After all we all think we are right and everyone is wrong).
But there are clear cut cases of right and wrong. Would you disagree with Galileo Galilei's defence of heliocentrism? What about the abolitionists' stand against slavery?
What I do not support is going around to other sovereign nations and telling them what to do cause YOU said so.
But nobody does this at all. When sovereign nations go around to other sovereign nations and try to tell them what to do, they use a variety of diplomatic tools, which may or may not be ethical (such as military invasion). But wait, since you claim that sovereign nations have the right to do as they wish, then you cannot have a problem with this.
What I do not support is one WORLD law. We are Human, we are capable of creating law and should be able to choose how and what law we live under.
How is one WORLD law being the ultimate authority any different from national law being the ultimate authority of a nation? You might say that the difference is that one can leave to another nation, but one cannot leave to another planet. I would argue that for a great many people, emigration is about as much of a possibility as a trip to the moon.
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On August 29 2012 04:29 MiQ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 04:27 SayGen wrote:On August 29 2012 04:26 MiQ wrote:On August 29 2012 04:17 SayGen wrote:
Also it is not realistic to just say "Well move country" or "Then change government".
Why not? If they had the ability to dance, they had the ability to walk. Why couldn't they leave?
Do you realise how retarded that sound? I can't believe you actually mean this shit your spewing. Your about to get reported... 15 posts to your name. You've PM'd me with insults. Your not adding to the conversation, your only attacking me. TL may not be for you. WTB a mod. Haha okay, so much for freedom eh? If you don't like it, you can always move forums?
Best part: I agreeed the the TOS just like you did. You are in violation i'm not.
Enjoy ur ban.
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On August 29 2012 04:23 SayGen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 04:21 Elsid wrote:On August 29 2012 04:17 SayGen wrote:
So on one hand you keep talking about freedom and then on the other you say "freedom doesn't work with stupid people" and that they should have just obeyed the law which doesn't foster freedom.
Did it occur to you that Freedom is sometimes allowing people to be more restrictive?
IE: Am I being punished cause I have to stop my car at a red light? Are my rights being violated. No they arn't.
I am here in America and I follow American law whether I like each particular law or not.
Also it is not realistic to just say "Well move country" or "Then change government".
Why not? If they had the ability to dance, they had the ability to walk. Why couldn't they leave?
And to answer your question about if I'd like it if their cultural values were pushed on me, no I wouldn't do you know why? I wouldn't because their cultural values are threats to freedom, they limit and inhibit the freedom of individuals to do as they wish.
Did it occur to you that Freedom is sometimes allowing people to be more restrictive?
IE: Am I being punished cause I have to stop my car at a red light? Are my rights being violated. No they aren't.
I am here in America and I follow American law whether I like each particular law or not.
Freedom is like anything else in life. There are extremes to freedom. How much freedom? How little freedom.
It is all just perspective. I draw the line that we are free to live in whatever oppressed lifestyle we want, so long as that oppression is a matter of choice. IE: You choose to live in a Muslim controlled country, might want to start obey their laws.
What I do not support is people saying they are right (After all we all think we are right and everyone is wrong).
What I do not support is going around to other sovereign nations and telling them what to do cause YOU said so.
What I do not support is one WORLD law. We are Human, we are capable of creating law and should be able to choose how and what law we live under. If people want to be oppressed let them. It's not my place to tell them they can't be oppressed. I like America, I like more freedoms. They don't- I'm fine with that.
They leave me alone, I leave them alone.
Learn to COEXIST.
Learn to stop being the AGGRESSOR, the INVADER, the PROBLEM.
You clearly don't understand the concept of freedom of ones ownself but not freedom to harm others. If you run red lights in your car that's you endangering the lives of others, this is not a freedom you have. Dancing has no victim. Smoking weed doens't hurt anyone either and that is illegal. Prositution doesn't hurt anyone, and that is illegal. I could go on...
You may want to re-think your claim on prostitution.
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EPT
