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This is a tragic event. Let's not derail the thread with a gun control debate. Posts from page 9 onward will be moderated for steering the discussion towards gun control. | ||
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helvete
Sweden276 Posts
On July 24 2012 05:03 Dzemoo wrote: Are Swedish people honestly this stupid? Right above the thread, in big ass letters it says no gun control talk, yet it is always SWEDISH liberals that have to mention gun talk lmfao. I don't know where you're from but obviously everyone from there is dumb. Jeez.. get a grip. | ||
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fishjie
United States1519 Posts
On July 24 2012 04:45 ticklishmusic wrote: The purpose of the criminal justice system, as far as I understand, is to rehabilitate the criminal, not for society to "get even". If we torture someone for committing a crime, we're no better than him/her. "But he/she did it first!" is a terrible argument and leads only to more escalation and so forth. Pretty sure that's taught in kindergarten. A guy meticulously planning a massacre is not the same as torturing that same guy. People keep trying to make this false equivalency. Why are they equally bad? Let's quantify. On the one hand, we have a guy who has caused irreparable damage to multiple families. Now let's look at the damage from torturing him. Nothing bad will result from it. Nobody cares about this worthless piece of crap, not even his family would dare defend him. So not the same. Eye for an eye does not leave the world blind, because very few people are sociopaths who go on killing sprees. | ||
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ishyishy
United States826 Posts
On July 24 2012 05:43 visual77 wrote: I'm so glad that news articles released in the first 72 hours of an event have absolutely zero bearing on the outcome of a trial. You are an idiot. The only purpose of the articles and the coverage of this by the news is to inform the public of what is happening. The scientists and investigators do the work, tell the press what they have done (or as much as they deem necessary to tell them), and the press relays that to the public. You are implying that what I said meant it happened the other way around. User was warned for this post | ||
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ishyishy
United States826 Posts
On July 24 2012 05:52 fishjie wrote: A guy meticulously planning a massacre is not the same as torturing that same guy. People keep trying to make this false equivalency. Why are they equally bad? Let's quantify. On the one hand, we have a guy who has caused irreparable damage to multiple families. Now let's look at the damage from torturing him. Nothing bad will result from it. Nobody cares about this worthless piece of crap, not even his family would dare defend him. So not the same. Eye for an eye does not leave the world blind, because very few people are sociopaths who go on killing sprees. Thank god there is at least 1 intelligent person in here lol. What you said here is identical to what I was thinking. | ||
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kingcoyote
United States546 Posts
On July 24 2012 05:52 ishyishy wrote: You are an idiot. The only purpose of the articles and the coverage of this by the news is to inform the public of what is happening. The scientists and investigators do the work, tell the press what they have done (or as much as they deem necessary to tell them), and the press relays that to the public. You are implying that what I said meant it happened the other way around. The scientists and investigators have hardly released anything. The past 72 hours has been mostly news speculation and overly dramatizing everything to gain more attention. You fell for it. Good job. Don't ever sit on a jury. | ||
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zalz
Netherlands3704 Posts
Sure, he was probably crazy, but even the crazy shooters generally tell some nonesense reason as to why they did it. All we got so far is the "I'm the joker" comment, which is about as poorly sourced as it gets. | ||
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NeMeSiS3
Canada2972 Posts
On July 24 2012 04:36 dotHead wrote: Murder is wrong, period. You are just as fucked up as him if you think for any reason, or under any circumstance it is "good". I'm for the death penalty, and if when he is found guilty, they decide to put him to death, then so be it. It will not be a good thing though, it will be his punishment. Depends on the term "murder" "Murder is the unlawful killing, with malice aforethought, of another human" Killing An act of causing death, esp. deliberately. You'll note they are slightly different. For instance, take the movie "The Punisher" you subjectively that he is a murderer but when you look at the whole picture he is far from a murdering vigilante. Same applies for everything, I love using movies, so in Rambo when the religious guy goes "I'll NEVER murder someone" and then at the end of the movie he is forced to kill another person to save someones life. It all depends on how you use the terminology and language, some places killing for vengeance is lawful, some it's not. | ||
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fishjie
United States1519 Posts
therefore all my posts are just wishful thinking that this guy will get his punishment. he is obviously a giant troll, calling himself the joker, so the media attention is probably delighting him. delight should be the last emotion this monster should be feeling. they should leave him in a room with the family's victims for a few minutes. if they choose to forgive him great, if they choose to kill him, well then justice served. | ||
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empty.bottle
685 Posts
Suspect profile and that kind of stuff? | ||
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kingcoyote
United States546 Posts
On July 24 2012 05:59 empty.bottle wrote: Is there any update on the case? Suspect profile and that kind of stuff? According to ishyishy, every single thing about him is known and studied and dissected. PM him for info. | ||
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Okiesmokie
Canada379 Posts
On July 24 2012 04:27 fishjie wrote: why am i bad? that's like saying the guy who carries out the death penalty is as bad as the person who committed the crime. um no.... murdering bad guys = good bad guys murdering innocent people = bad the guy is a worthless piece of trash who inflicted tons of suffering. he meticulously planned it. why does he deserve any rights at this point? he's not a human, he's a monster. anyone whose played diablo knows what you do to monsters, you beat them to a bloody pulp. Who are you to make the definition of who is a "bad guy" and who is "innocent"? You are following the same logic that a lot of murderers do. They think that someone wronged them, therefore they are "bad" and murder them. | ||
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ishyishy
United States826 Posts
On July 24 2012 05:54 visual77 wrote: The scientists and investigators have hardly released anything. The past 72 hours has been mostly news speculation and overly dramatizing everything to gain more attention. You fell for it. Good job. Don't ever sit on a jury. Yeah because they lied to everyone about what they found in his arpartment, they lied about what he used and what he was wearing, they lied about his past life, they lied about......Once again, you are an idiot lol. You think the media is going to lie about what they have disclosed thus far? What happens when trial day comes along, they repeat what was disclosed (and any further information they have found over 1 week) and it doesnt match what the news had previously said? They get a shit ton of flak from the public for lying, then they are discredited as a reliable source of news, which loses them money in the long run. I'd say lying would be the worst thing they could possibly do as a news business. User was warned for this post | ||
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kingcoyote
United States546 Posts
On July 24 2012 06:09 ishyishy wrote: Yeah because they lied to everyone about what they found in his arpartment, they lied about what he used and what he was wearing, they lied about his past life, they lied about......Once again, you are an idiot lol. You think the media is going to lie about what they have disclosed thus far? What happens when trial day comes along, they repeat what was disclosed (and any further information they have found over 1 week) and it doesnt match what the news had previously said? They get a shit ton of flak from the public for lying, then they are discredited as a reliable source of news, which loses them money in the long run. I'd say lying would be the worst thing they could possibly do as a news business. You really like calling people an idiot, it seems. So... I'm done here. | ||
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fishjie
United States1519 Posts
On July 24 2012 06:04 Okiesmokie wrote: Who are you to make the definition of who is a "bad guy" and who is "innocent"? You are following the same logic that a lot of murderers do. They think that someone wronged them, therefore they are "bad" and murder them. a fair question. here's my system of ethics in a nutshell. humans are social animals, therefore any system of ethics must take into consideration interhuman relationships and promote cooperation and teamwork. "bad" is simply that which causes suffering and pain in others. "good" is that which creates happiness and friendships. under such a system, there is a lot of gray area where its not entirely clear what's good or bad. in situations such as these, its important to debate and consider both sides of the argument. however in this case, its a pretty open and shut scenario. guy is "bad" because he killed lots of people who were not a threat to him, were doing no harm to him, and who were just trying to live their lives. that's a pretty slam dunk case for him being a "bad" guy. | ||
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Okiesmokie
Canada379 Posts
On July 24 2012 06:13 fishjie wrote: a fair question. here's my system of ethics in a nutshell. humans are social animals, therefore any system of ethics must take into consideration interhuman relationships and promote cooperation and teamwork. "bad" is simply that which causes suffering and pain in others. "good" is that which creates happiness and friendships. under such a system, there is a lot of gray area where its not entirely clear what's good or bad. in situations such as these, its important to debate and consider both sides of the argument. however in this case, its a pretty open and shut scenario. guy is "bad" because he killed lots of people who were not a threat to him, were doing no harm to him, and who were just trying to live their lives. that's a pretty slam dunk case for him being a "bad" guy. The thing about ethics is that they are all a matter of opinion. There is no scientific test to determine whether someone is "good" or "bad." | ||
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PanN
United States2828 Posts
On July 24 2012 05:58 fishjie wrote: oh let's be clear here, i'm 100% in support of due process, fair trails, and everything. this is because not having these things in place would result in giant government abuse, and infringement on the personal liberties of american citizens. as much as its awful that this guy is not going to get brutally tortured to death as punishment for his actions, it would be far worse to have a system where the government could willy nilly torture people, kinda like what the patriot act enabled. therefore all my posts are just wishful thinking that this guy will get his punishment. he is obviously a giant troll, calling himself the joker, so the media attention is probably delighting him. delight should be the last emotion this monster should be feeling. they should leave him in a room with the family's victims for a few minutes. if they choose to forgive him great, if they choose to kill him, well then justice served. It's a good thing hes not actually, it means as a society we are above such methods. If this entire nation thought with their heart and not their brain in regards to punishments we'd have a much more fucked up system. Again, you failed to explain why you want this guy tortured exactly? What benefits does it have other than to fulfill your disgusting thirst for vengeance? | ||
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cz
United States3249 Posts
1) It's revealed he's suffering from a mental illness, almost certainly schizophrenia. He was convinced he was the joker and was playing the role as a result of his mental illness. Or at least that's what medical professionals conclude. His withdrawal from school followed a trend of the disease manifesting itself for the first time or growing in strength. 2) He is revealed to be confused and horrified at his actions. 3) He is medicated for court hearings with anti-psychotics. 4) Court now has decision. This one I'm not absolutely sure about, but I'm going to say that they accept testimony of his psychiatric team and send him to some sort of psychiatric center for 5+ years until he is rehabilited. Option 2 is that his schizophrenic appeal is ignored and he goes to prison for rest of his life / death sentence, but I doubt it's going that route. 5) Him being sent to psychiatric center for rehabilitation causes widespread public anger and debate over mental illness and the judicial system. Public is assured he'll be confined but the eventual goal is to re-integrate him into society. 6) We all eventually forget about him until 3 years from now when he is beginning to be re-integrated into society. 7) 10 years from now he's living in the community again with partial supervision/check-ups from mental health people. Almost certain this will all happen. | ||
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ishyishy
United States826 Posts
On July 24 2012 06:22 Okiesmokie wrote: The thing about ethics is that they are all a matter of opinion. There is no scientific test to determine whether someone is "good" or "bad." Why is this even an arguement? It doesnt matter what people think of him. He violated laws, and those laws have set guidelines for a punishment or consequence. The punishment for murder, in a case where the one who commited the act was not diagnosed as mentally ill, will receive life in prison or death. It's that simple. "In most states, first-degree murder is defined as an unlawful killing that is both willful and premeditated, meaning that it was committed after planning or "lying in wait" for the victim." - What Holmes did. "As you probably already know, crimes are either charged as felonies or misdemeanors. What you may not realize is that both felonies and misdemeanors are divided into classes. For example, a class one felony is the most serious (example: first-degree murder)." Quoted from http://www.colorado-criminal-lawyer.com/sentencing/# Scroll further down that page and you will see a generalization of the classes in the form of a chart. 1st degree murder is a class 1 sentence. It says minimum of life in prison, maximum of death. I am no law student, but I think this is obvious: Holmes has at least 12 accounts (since he directly caused the death of 12 individuals) of first degree murder, on top of the multiple assault charges (attempted murder charges?) of the other 58 that he caused moderate to severe injury to, plus all of the minor charges (like destruction of property), and the bomb-rigged apartment. Is there any question of the resulting sentence? | ||
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fishjie
United States1519 Posts
On July 24 2012 06:22 Okiesmokie wrote: The thing about ethics is that they are all a matter of opinion. There is no scientific test to determine whether someone is "good" or "bad." exactly, its all a matter of subjectivity. so the best and only way to determine a good system of ethics is by rigorous debate and examination, because its not black and white. this is scary to a lot of people, which is why religions are quick to claim atheists are amoral. bottom line, in my system of ethics, what he did is "bad". if you have a convincing explanation for why what he did is not "bad", then please present it. Otherwise, you are just making statements without providing your reasoning behind them, which is fail. | ||
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Okiesmokie
Canada379 Posts
On July 24 2012 06:52 fishjie wrote: exactly, its all a matter of subjectivity. so the best and only way to determine a good system of ethics is by rigorous debate and examination, because its not black and white. this is scary to a lot of people, which is why religions are quick to claim atheists are amoral. bottom line, in my system of ethics, what he did is "bad". if you have a convincing explanation for why what he did is not "bad", then please present it. Otherwise, you are just making statements without providing your reasoning behind them, which is fail. I'm not arguing what he did was not bad. But I am arguing that torturing bad people is also bad. | ||
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