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MadProbe
United States269 Posts
could you link me to a webpage that explains exactly how this system would work? because that website sounds like it was written by hippies tripping acid... "think about it man..... if there was no money.... everything would be FREE!!!" if you presented a model for the political/economic system (besides "robots man, FUCKEN ROBOTS!"), maybe less people would be laughing at you. srsly that website explains this idea with a super vague 6 min video and a short vague FAQ. wtf? | ||
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Sickkiee
Japan607 Posts
On May 05 2012 03:36 cydial wrote: So, basically I can just walk down to Chipotle and order their tastey burritos for free? I can go on amazon and order the computer parts I want (The ones I really want total $2000)? What's to stop me from ordering lots of expensive products? Nothing? What would I be doing? Why should I really even do anything when everything is already provided? Granted there will be people that work and pursue their interests and dreams, but what's to say that their work and interests even benefit the rest of society? That's what I think when I read about the 'no money scheme'. What's stopping me from ordering the most expensive computer; let alone owning a McDonalds. | ||
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Focuspants
Canada780 Posts
On May 07 2012 12:46 DeliCiousVP wrote: When he is 24 he will be the greatest advocate of Free world charter you will see  I am 24, have studied philosophy, history and political science, and I think this idea is a waste of time. It will never work. I dont even have to look beyond myself, because I would hate this system, and abuse it to the best of my abilities. I would do no work whatsoever, and take whatever I possibly could to benefit myself. If I feel this way, many others will also. You dont need any further proof that this system fails. If I do not need to do work to acquire goods, I wont do work. Other than the 0.1% or less of people that work purely for the love of what they do, there is no way anyone else would work without compensation. Your argument about robots doing everything is comical. Not only do we not have robots capable of doing everything for us, you cant have robots supervise robots, robots cant advance technology and our pursuit of knowledge, and there are many jobs robots simply cannot do, you need people to do them. Like dividing up the resources. That person has power. People will complain whenever something goes wrong. I am guessing there wont be robot customer service representatives. Human nature will take over from here, and society will collapse, and there will be war, schisms, the same old shit. This is purely in the realm of fantasy, and if you believe otherwise, you are delusional. | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
On May 07 2012 12:50 1Eris1 wrote: Hmm, fair enough. Ideally then we would want to intertwine the two, no? Generally that's how it's been done. You design something that increases SOL/saves lives/whatever, you get a lot of money. You work hard and contribute to society, you get money. (Usually not as much.) I assume here your referencing the manipulation of money? I certainly agree it's a bit ridiculous, but the only real solutions I see is either 1. greatly increasing awareness of the average consumer (which I can't see happening) 2. government takeover of banks Nationalization of financial institutions is part of the platform in the Manifesto; there seems to be something to this but I haven't thought through all the consequences yet. Finance as we know it now is an abomination. (my republican friend agrees with me on this one) Degrading/dehumanizing? Probably. I think we also have really high standards. We should. It's the twenty first fucking century. Time to make a world we WANT to live in. Several people of an obviously elder age reacted in very similar fashions, so I'm not sure I'm the problem here. You seem like a pretty well-informed youngster  . But at this point I think you are the victim of some ideology - then again who isn't. Keep asking questions about everything and you will figure stuff out on your own. | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
On May 07 2012 12:56 Focuspants wrote: I am guessing there wont be robot customer service representatives. . These at least already exist. | ||
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DeliCiousVP
Sweden343 Posts
On May 07 2012 12:53 Sickkiee wrote: That's what I think when I read about the 'no money scheme'. What's stopping me from ordering the most expensive computer; let alone owning a McDonalds. If you want the best parts you just order it like that and the factories will crank it all out. 3D modeling works for electronics aswel. Today you would not go into a car lot and try to drive away 10 cars at once, in the future with your values shifted and improved you wont have an urge to start stockpilling stuff because there is no need you already have access ownership is just a burdon Its actually quite easy to understand if you think outside of the box. Its adopting how the internet works to modern society baiscly. | ||
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1Eris1
United States5797 Posts
On May 07 2012 12:57 sam!zdat wrote: Nationalization of financial institutions is part of the platform in the Manifesto; there seems to be something to this but I haven't thought through all the consequences yet. Finance as we know it now is an abomination. (my republican friend agrees with me on this one) We should. It's the twenty first fucking century. Time to make a world we WANT to live in. You seem like a pretty well-informed youngster . But at this point I think you are the victim of some ideology - then again who isn't. Keep asking questions about everything and you will figure stuff out on your own.I'm too lazy at this point to do multi-quotes. >.< You see, when I look at myself and a few others I completely agree...but then I look at the vast majority of people I interact with and I completely disagree. Most people (many of them very "smart" and capable) are firmly entrenched in certain beliefs/processes and they cannot even bear looking at a rational arguement from the other/opposing side. I mean personally, I was raised 1000000% democrat, gradually switched half my viewpoints to that of a republican, jumped left, slowly shifted right, etc etc until I've become firmly (on average) plopped in the middle. And I did not just one day decide "oh shit conservatism>liberalism", it was mostly through reading/discussion (with the opposite side. everyone I know just discusses among themselves and thus further entrenches themselves in their beliefs) and I'm still not sure where I stand on a lot of things. And then when I go to tell my democrat friend (who is very intelligent, mannered, and supposedely open minded) to you know read X theory/book by Y republican, he's like "That was written by a republican? What a load of bullshit, blah blah blah". It's increidbly infuriating, but I've come to accept that this is how the vast majority of people are, be it in politics, religion or whatever. I mean shit, just look at our presedential elections. And nah. I know Capitalism has a lot of flaws. I just think it can be improved upon and is still vastly superior to dream concepts with little logical or empirical evidence/backup. | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
And nah. I know Capitalism has a lot of flaws. I just think it can be improved upon and is still vastly superior to dream concepts with little logical or empirical evidence/backup. Kid, I like you. You keep truckin. It's increidbly infuriating, but I've come to accept that this is how the vast majority of people are, be it in politics, religion or whatever. I mean shit, just look at our presedential elections. What you are describing is precisely the degeneracy of our culture. edit: you should not accept that it must be this way. | ||
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
http://www.gapminder.org/ Where you can look at Hans Rosling's awesome data. Gapminder world is an awesome tool for visualizing data from all over the world and his videos, many featured on TED.com, are really awesome. I found these two to be particularly good. http://www.gapminder.org/videos/hans-rosling-and-the-magic-washing-machine/ http://www.gapminder.org/videos/200-years-that-changed-the-world-bbc/ Both combined are like 15mins so they aren't much of a commitment to watch. | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
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v3chr0
United States856 Posts
How do we get the World; crime lords, rich people, powerful people, the people who own the resources, EVERYONE in on it? How do we prevent EVERY SINGLE person from deviating from this plan? How are we not forcing people to live, be and act a certain way? The tribes who lead a very simple existence, and the people who chose to; are they forced to join this system? (A lot about this does not seem like a better world at all, or freedom at all, it's like one of those weird Utopian societies where every one is wearing, doing and talking the same way, everything is organized and sterilized, the people are all the same, the food is tasteless but provides every nutrient you need, everything is 'ideal', we are lead and owe our survival to Robots) How is this ever going to be practical? You need the cooperation of everyone, especially the ones with power, you're gonna have to get these people to concede everything they have, that they mostly likely worked very hard for. How would it even be possible to start this? You're gonna have to buy resources, to then hand them out freely... I never see this working, and by the time it does, it won't be a problem because Human behavior will have changed. One great thing about our World is that every place you go is different. It may be America, but there are 50 states, all of which are Governed differently, and to varying degrees of success or failure, they are each a testing ground, and something to learn and improve from. It's our differences that make us great, and unique. It's those same differences that make us so powerful when we work together, different ideas, different everything coming together to create an idea. Jacque Fresco's belief that we must remove individuality is flawed, it's our nature and it's what makes us so damn interesting, and powerful as a species. You're not going to get anywhere by forcing people to behave a certain way, we have to get there on our own. We all know the right thing to do, but we obviously don't always act upon it. You can talk about how bad homelessness all you like, but that same person probably hasn't done shit to help. We're a race of hypocrits, we're always telling others what they SHOULD do, meanwhile that person isn't doing shit but making the next guys Life harder. Once we can appreciate our differences, the World will be more like this, and without all the extra B.S, it's just our nature that needs to change, and not forcefully - this has been happening slowly, with the World becoming more united, and educated. | ||
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Sickkiee
Japan607 Posts
On May 07 2012 13:03 DeliCiousVP wrote: If you want the best parts you just order it like that and the factories will crank it all out. 3D modeling works for electronics aswel. Today you would not go into a car lot and try to drive away 10 cars at once, in the future with your values shifted and improved you wont have an urge to start stockpilling stuff because there is no need you already have access ownership is just a burdon Its actually quite easy to understand if you think outside of the box. Its adopting how the internet works to modern society baiscly. But if you look at todays society, everyone wants the best of what they want. Money is not a hindrance to most peoples materialism. Meaning, if there was a no money scheme, people would want the best - what would we define the best? What value is there is making anything other than the best? Wouldn't that strain our already strained resources further? Sure, you can make assumptions that we all will magically respect our planet, respect what we have and to value what another person has, and values in general. But I highly, highly doubt that that is a plausible scheme. What gives another the incentive to make the very best? Because of good will? Because they are forced to? | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
On May 07 2012 13:33 Sickkiee wrote: What gives another the incentive to make the very best? Because of good will? Because they are forced to? My friends who are coders make things compulsively and live on ramen. | ||
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BluePanther
United States2776 Posts
On May 07 2012 11:39 sam!zdat wrote: let's make a list of things missing from your example: global finance capital Does that help? I'm confused as to your point... You hate money? It's merely a device to facilitate exchange of services in an efficient manner. Also, it has nothing to do with my point. My point is that any system should be judged by its ability to reduce waste and encourage efficiency. Capitalism is the best way of dealing with this, because of its transparency. There isn't some magical answer that fixes the problem while hiding all the blemishes. | ||
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xeo1
United States429 Posts
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
On May 07 2012 14:22 BluePanther wrote: should be judged by its ability to reduce waste and encourage efficiency. Capitalism is the best way of dealing with this, because of its transparency. I think the problem is just that you and I are living in very different capitalisms. Everywhere around me I see nothing but waste and inefficiency. Pardon me if I don't think capitalism is a magic answer that fixes all of our problems. My point earlier was that your example had nothing to do with global finance capital, and so is totally irrelevant. edit: what is this about hating money? Have you read anything I've posted? | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
Don't really want to argue all this stuff about SOL, as it's hard to quantify. I do think that thinking purely materially (i.e. SOL = the bundle of commodities) is a big mistake. Those are the only things that can be objectively measured, which is why that is what is used to measure standard of living. If you don't want to argue about it then don't bring it up. We have a really degraded and stagnant culture, and this has a lot to do with consumer capitalism. Your iphone does not make you as happy as you think it does. Unfortunately "your iPhone does not make you as happy as you think it does" has no basis in reality. You are, in fact, as happy as you think you are. Happiness is totally subjective and individualistic. If your iPhone makes you X happy, then your iPhone makes you X happy, and anyone telling you otherwise is being presumptuous and dismissive of your individuality and right to make choices that you believe will bring you more happiness. You just don't know better; they do. edit: I'm personally most interested in culture. Capitalism leads to some really terrible culture. Capitalism leads to more culture. That's it. It doesn't lead to good or bad culture in and of itself. It just allows for more to be created thanks both to its individualistic nature and its capacity to produce enough wealth to support more people creating culture rather than having to work directly for the necessities of life. There has never been the amount of culture created than there has been during the period of capitalism. Both good and bad. If you want less bad and think a different system will lead to that, you also have to accept that less good will be created as well. Everywhere around me I see nothing but waste and inefficiency. Pardon me if I don't think capitalism is a magic answer that fixes all of our problems. Your definition of waste and inefficiency seems to be a matter of taste as to the popular choices of the masses more than anything else. My point earlier was that your example had nothing to do with global finance capital, and so is totally irrelevant. It has everything to do with global finance capital. They're the same thing, just on a different scale. The most efficient user of resources survives and prospers and the inefficient fall out of the competition. | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
On May 07 2012 14:42 DeepElemBlues wrote: Capitalism leads to more culture. Ah, so the gross national culture index went up this year, did it? Are you from Dallas by any chance? | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
On May 07 2012 14:42 DeepElemBlues wrote: It has everything to do with global finance capital. They're the same thing, just on a different scale. The most efficient user of resources survives and prospers and the inefficient fall out of the competition. Are you listening to yourself? There's only one scale at which global finance capital occurs. Lol. | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
Ah, so the gross national culture index went up this year, did it? Are you from Dallas by any chance? You either don't understand or you deliberately misunderstand, but let's try this again: The more wealth that is created, and I mean material as well as financial wealth, the more capable people are of obtaining the necessities of life without having to actually create those necessities themselves. The more abundance there is, the cheaper the abundant products are. This leads to both more disposable income and more leisure time. More people can enjoy culture, and more people can make a living by creating culture. Thus, more culture is created. You can make a living as a writer of books or songs or radio or television programs or movies instead of being forced to be a farmer. People have the money and the time to buy and read books or listen to music or other programs on the radio or watch television or movies. No I'm not from anywhere within 1500 miles of Dallas, are you from a geographic location that I associate prejudiced stereotypes with? Oh, you poor rube, you're from that place where I think everyone is a moron, how sad and funny to be you. From that place. With all the morons. Because they're from that place. Where you're from. How clever! Are you listening to yourself? There's only one scale at which global finance capital occurs. Lol. Yes. But the underlying principle is the same whether it is using pigs or using finance to make a living. You laugh and are derisive at that towards which you don't have even the most basic understanding. | ||
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