On September 06 2012 05:24 NonCorporeal wrote: Yes, they are American and they were created by conservatives (the Founding Fathers). Liberals want to destroy the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, they don't hold American views, they hold foreign EU socialist views. Obama has downsized the military and is purposely letting the economy to collapse in order to make America internationally weak. He also said that he wants to get rid of all of our troops from our allies, leaving both America and our allies weak. Also, Hillary Clinton (at least I think it was her) said she wants to get rid of our Navy.
Edit: No offense taken.
Honestly man I commend you for your civility in discussion, which seems to be a rarity here these days, but I can't agree with anything you're saying. They are merely your beliefs; your interpretations of American history and contemporary policy and as such I can't disprove them, but neither can I agree with them.
I can, however, disprove the statement you made that our Secretary of State is seeking to abolish our navy. That has not, nor will ever, happen.
Thank you, I'd like to think that most people here have been civil. I know they're my beliefs, I'm not denying that I have been posting my opinions here. However some things I'd argue are just plain facts, like the American Revolution being based on classical liberalism, which is really undeniable, the Founding Fathers themselves took many of their ideas from John Locke, the founder of classical liberalism.
We can argue all day whether the Founding Fathers believed X or Y, but I don't think that really matters.
The founders were imperfect men. They created a system, that while very good, was not handed down to Moses by God. It has weaknesses. Take Madison for example. He was the author of most of the Constitution. He viewed the people as a "great beast" which needed to be tamed. Also, he stated that the government should be ran by the "minority of the opulent" to protect property owners from the majority of people who may, "call for a more equal distribution of the blessings of life". His views on democracy are quite perverse, and sadly won out.
The Founders were men. Not angels. Not gods.I firmly believe we should over time become a more democratic society. That would mean giving equal men an equal say, so that the modern peasant has a voice just as strong as a wealthy businessman.
On September 06 2012 05:24 NonCorporeal wrote: Yes, they are American and they were created by conservatives (the Founding Fathers). Liberals want to destroy the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, they don't hold American views, they hold foreign EU socialist views. Obama has downsized the military and is purposely letting the economy to collapse in order to make America internationally weak. He also said that he wants to get rid of all of our troops from our allies, leaving both America and our allies weak. Also, Hillary Clinton (at least I think it was her) said she wants to get rid of our Navy.
Edit: No offense taken.
Honestly man I commend you for your civility in discussion, which seems to be a rarity here these days, but I can't agree with anything you're saying. They are merely your beliefs; your interpretations of American history and contemporary policy and as such I can't disprove them, but neither can I agree with them.
I can, however, disprove the statement you made that our Secretary of State is seeking to abolish our navy. That has not, nor will ever, happen.
Thank you, I'd like to think that most people here have been civil. I know they're my beliefs, I'm not denying that I have been posting my opinions here. However some things I'd argue are just plain facts, like the American Revolution being based on classical liberalism, which is really undeniable, the Founding Fathers themselves took many of their ideas from John Locke, the founder of classical liberalism.
I agree classical liberalism was one of the first schools of political thought in the United States. You seem to know a good deal about politics, but all of your opinions seem overwhelmingly biased and Republican-skewed. Obviously not faulting you for that; as I mentioned before I realize the polarizing affect politcal partisanship has had on our country. It's sad really.
Remember good ole' George Washington? He warned us not to create political parties, for that reason alone: it would divide us. As someone currently enrolled in his last year of undergrad (IR major, mainly foreign policy courses) I can tell you I was HEAVILY biased coming into school, and really inherited the majority of my political viewpoints from the Daily Show or Colbert Report, both of which maintain strong liberal biases.
I can tell you it is fucking enlightening to just have that epiphany one day; to just wake up and realize mass media in this country is a fucking disaster and guides public opinion whichever way it desires. I'm not sure where you are in your life, what you've studied or whether you think everything I'm saying is bullshit. I can't tell you what to think, right? Man, in a nation with over 310 million people and the way the 24-hour news cycle works, I'm afraid one voice is too easily drowned out by those with more influence and power. Anyway Ima ladder for a bit. Take it easy.
Thanks, you seem to know a good deal about ppolitics too. I'll admit I'm biased, I imagine everyone is biased, whether they realize it or not, we all have had influences on our lives that have led us to think the way we do now. I agree with you, I only recently discovered just how much power the media can have. Don't get me wrong, I always knew the media was biased, but what really made me realize that it has the ultimate power over the people is, strangely enough, an episode of Doctor Who (The Long Game, of the 2005 series, to be precise). If you think about it, almost everything that we learn about the news, especially political news, comes from the media.
Indeed, American politics are polarizing, but that's hardly an attribute that only we share. I would be perfectly fine with political parties if America had a multi-party system where several different political parties that represented different and distinct ideas. Needless to say, these parties would need to have a reasonable chance to win seats in Congress.
It's not just partisanship though, it's who people hang around; a common problem on both sides is that people tend to want to be around with people who agree with them. Due to them only being around people who agree with them, they have no real idea of what the other side stands for, except for what members of their own side tell them. That's why the liberals think that conservatives are all racist, homophobic, and sexist rich white people who would kill their own grandmother for a nickel.
Good, because that's not the reason I'm blaming them. It's ironic that you, on the other hand, are doing exactly that, namely blaming Obama for deficits that are both the result of an economic crisis he inherited and policies that were enacted under Bush (Medicare part D, the Bush tax cuts and the wars).
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/29/us-usa-war-idUSTRE75S25320110629 The White House says the total amount appropriated for war-related activities of the Department of Defense, intelligence and State Department since 2001 is about $1.3 trillion, and that would rise to nearly $1.4 trillion in 2012.
What is $1.4 trillion divided by 10? And if "two wars" are for Bush does that mean we are saying Democrats would leave the Taliban in power? Obama's (poorly done) surge in Afghanistan is all Bush?
In the same way, why are they called Bush tax cuts if Obama supported them and acknowledged the drag on the economy they would create?
On September 06 2012 06:05 NonCorporeal wrote: @dvorakftw
It's hilarious when Democrats say they are "pro-choice," yet they insist on banning guns, banning "unhealthy" food, forcing everyone to join trade unions, etc.
It's hilarious when Republicans say they are pro-life given their foreign policy. It is a two way street, and this is coming from a guy who is an avid gun shooter/trainer.
The older I get the more I see how the left (not necessarily Democrats) usually is correct.
On September 06 2012 05:24 NonCorporeal wrote: Yes, they are American and they were created by conservatives (the Founding Fathers). Liberals want to destroy the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, they don't hold American views, they hold foreign EU socialist views. Obama has downsized the military and is purposely letting the economy to collapse in order to make America internationally weak. He also said that he wants to get rid of all of our troops from our allies, leaving both America and our allies weak. Also, Hillary Clinton (at least I think it was her) said she wants to get rid of our Navy.
Edit: No offense taken.
Honestly man I commend you for your civility in discussion, which seems to be a rarity here these days, but I can't agree with anything you're saying. They are merely your beliefs; your interpretations of American history and contemporary policy and as such I can't disprove them, but neither can I agree with them.
I can, however, disprove the statement you made that our Secretary of State is seeking to abolish our navy. That has not, nor will ever, happen.
Thank you, I'd like to think that most people here have been civil. I know they're my beliefs, I'm not denying that I have been posting my opinions here. However some things I'd argue are just plain facts, like the American Revolution being based on classical liberalism, which is really undeniable, the Founding Fathers themselves took many of their ideas from John Locke, the founder of classical liberalism.
I agree classical liberalism was one of the first schools of political thought in the United States. You seem to know a good deal about politics, but all of your opinions seem overwhelmingly biased and Republican-skewed. Obviously not faulting you for that; as I mentioned before I realize the polarizing affect politcal partisanship has had on our country. It's sad really.
Remember good ole' George Washington? He warned us not to create political parties, for that reason alone: it would divide us. As someone currently enrolled in his last year of undergrad (IR major, mainly foreign policy courses) I can tell you I was HEAVILY biased coming into school, and really inherited the majority of my political viewpoints from the Daily Show or Colbert Report, both of which maintain strong liberal biases.
I can tell you it is fucking enlightening to just have that epiphany one day; to just wake up and realize mass media in this country is a fucking disaster and guides public opinion whichever way it desires. I'm not sure where you are in your life, what you've studied or whether you think everything I'm saying is bullshit. I can't tell you what to think, right? Man, in a nation with over 310 million people and the way the 24-hour news cycle works, I'm afraid one voice is too easily drowned out by those with more influence and power. Anyway Ima ladder for a bit. Take it easy.
Thanks, you seem to know a good deal about ppolitics too. I'll admit I'm biased, I imagine everyone is biased, whether they realize it or not, we all have had influences on our lives that have led us to think the way we do now. I agree with you, I only recently discovered just how much power the media can have. Don't get me wrong, I always knew the media was biased, but what really made me realize that it has the ultimate power over the people is, strangely enough, an episode of Doctor Who (The Long Game, of the 2005 series, to be precise). If you think about it, almost everything that we learn about the news, especially political news, comes from the media.
Indeed, American politics are polarizing, but that's hardly an attribute that only we share. I would be perfectly fine with political parties if America had a multi-party system where several different political parties that represented different and distinct ideas. Needless to say, these parties would need to have a reasonable chance to win seats in Congress.
It's not just partisanship though, it's who people hang around; a common problem on both sides is that people tend to want to be around with people who agree with them. Due to them only being around people who agree with them, they have no real idea of what the other side stands for, except for what members of their own side tell them. That's why the liberals think that conservatives are all racist, homophobic, and sexist rich white people who would kill their own grandmother for a nickel.
On September 06 2012 05:51 NonCorporeal wrote: Obama thinks America and Islam share the same values when it comes to human rights (among other things):
Obviously Obama actually addresses people like you in the opening of his speech.
I have to say Obama is doing great work saving Americas damaged international reputation. Only 5 minutes in to the speech but he's just so good.
On September 06 2012 05:59 dvorakftw wrote: Hey, who was the guy talking about how Democrats want to leave everyone alone?
This one's for you, whoever you are!
So some people at the Democratic convention are poor speakers and/or dumb? The views of these people don't necessarily reflect the view of the party. I could just as easily talk to my grandfather, a Republican, about his views on black people and it would be just as irrelevant.
On September 06 2012 05:51 NonCorporeal wrote: Obama thinks America and Islam share the same values when it comes to human rights (among other things): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANk9qydfGe4
Unless you give a timestamp, I'm not going to watch a 55 minute video. I think you might be tunnel-visioning way too hard on the Obama-Islam connection, though: just look at what Obama's done in office. Aside from his imaginary conspiracy to make America weak, few of his actions scream "Terrorist!" or "Muslim" (not that there is anything wrong with being a Muslim). Suggesting we watch Obama's America was particularly lol-worthy: it's basically a conservative infomercial.
Finally, does it matter who believes in what the founding fathers did? No party does completely, and we have to remember that there were lots of issues that the fathers were quite divided on themselves. This is a completely different age, with new technology and a different history, and just because some people decided that something would work hundreds of years ago doesn't mean that it was the best decision then or now.
K I watched the first five minutes like you said. To paraprhase, he said that there are a lot of tensions between the West and Islam because of Imperialism, Cold War, Holy Wars, and terrorism but that we should focus on what we have in common and work together. If you see something wrong with that, I don't know what to tell you.
On September 06 2012 06:16 NonCorporeal wrote: It's not just partisanship though, it's who people hang around; a common problem on both sides is that people tend to want to be around with people who agree with them. Due to them only being around people who agree with them, they have no real idea of what the other side stands for, except for what members of their own side tell them. That's why the liberals think that conservatives are all racist, homophobic, and sexist rich white people who would kill their own grandmother for a nickel.
The difference is that conservatives are surrounded by a media and culture that promote the leftist talking points and false assumptions so they see more of both sides.
On September 06 2012 06:22 Chocolate wrote: So some people at the Democratic convention are poor speakers and/or dumb? The views of these people don't necessarily reflect the view of the party. I could just as easily talk to my grandfather, a Republican, about his views on black people and it would be just as irrelevant.
And the laws being discussed? Banned foods, banned lightbulbs, no school choice, no right-to-work....
On September 06 2012 06:16 NonCorporeal wrote: It's not just partisanship though, it's who people hang around; a common problem on both sides is that people tend to want to be around with people who agree with them. Due to them only being around people who agree with them, they have no real idea of what the other side stands for, except for what members of their own side tell them. That's why the liberals think that conservatives are all racist, homophobic, and sexist rich white people who would kill their own grandmother for a nickel.
The difference is that conservatives are surrounded by a media and culture that promote the leftist talking points and false assumptions so they see more of both sides.
Yeah, being surrounded by reality must be really horrible for you.
On September 06 2012 06:16 NonCorporeal wrote: It's not just partisanship though, it's who people hang around; a common problem on both sides is that people tend to want to be around with people who agree with them. Due to them only being around people who agree with them, they have no real idea of what the other side stands for, except for what members of their own side tell them. That's why the liberals think that conservatives are all racist, homophobic, and sexist rich white people who would kill their own grandmother for a nickel.
The difference is that conservatives are surrounded by a media and culture that promote the leftist talking points and false assumptions so they see more of both sides.
Yeah, being surrounded by reality must be really horrible for you.
On September 06 2012 06:05 NonCorporeal wrote: @dvorakftw
It's hilarious when Democrats say they are "pro-choice," yet they insist on banning guns, banning "unhealthy" food, forcing everyone to join trade unions, etc.
It's hilarious when Republicans say they are pro-life given their foreign policy. It is a two way street, and this is coming from a guy who is an avid gun shooter/trainer.
The older I get the more I see how the left (not necessarily Democrats) usually is correct.
What's not pro-life about our foreign policy?
How is big government, taking away freedom, and the idea that people should be subservient to the state, "correct?"
So some people at the Democratic convention are poor speakers and/or dumb? The views of these people don't necessarily reflect the view of the party. I could just as easily talk to my grandfather, a Republican, about his views on black people and it would be just as irrelevant.
On September 06 2012 05:51 NonCorporeal wrote: Obama thinks America and Islam share the same values when it comes to human rights (among other things): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANk9qydfGe4
Unless you give a timestamp, I'm not going to watch a 55 minute video. I think you might be tunnel-visioning way too hard on the Obama-Islam connection, though: just look at what Obama's done in office. Aside from his imaginary conspiracy to make America weak, few of his actions scream "Terrorist!" or "Muslim" (not that there is anything wrong with being a Muslim). Suggesting we watch Obama's America was particularly lol-worthy: it's basically a conservative infomercial.
Finally, does it matter who believes in what the founding fathers did? No party does completely, and we have to remember that there were lots of issues that the fathers were quite divided on themselves. This is a completely different age, with new technology and a different history, and just because some people decided that something would work hundreds of years ago doesn't mean that it was the best decision then or now.
On September 06 2012 06:05 NonCorporeal wrote: @dvorakftw
It's hilarious when Democrats say they are "pro-choice," yet they insist on banning guns, banning "unhealthy" food, forcing everyone to join trade unions, etc.
It's hilarious when Republicans say they are "pro-life", yet they insist on relaxed gun laws and unregulated gun sales, repealing health care regulations so that insurers can deny or limit everyone's coverage, and force everyone to pay for a brutal 11-year war in Iraq without just cause.
On September 06 2012 06:05 NonCorporeal wrote: @dvorakftw
It's hilarious when Democrats say they are "pro-choice," yet they insist on banning guns, banning "unhealthy" food, forcing everyone to join trade unions, etc.
It's hilarious when Republicans say they are "pro-life", yet they insist on relaxed gun laws and unregulated gun sales, repealing health care regulations so that insurers can deny or limit everyone's coverage, and force everyone to pay for a brutal 11-year war in Iraq without just cause.
See what I did there? Eh? Eh?
All of the evidence shows that gun control increases crime, especially murder rates; both in the United States and Europe. Every time the socialists try to implement gun control, it results in higher murder rates, if anything, supporting gun control means you're pro-death.
As for healthcare, how does asking that people stand on their own two feet instead of begging for handouts make you pro-death? I could just as easily argue the same about socialist healthcare, since socialist healthcare is of such an attrocious quality that people die from lack of quality care. Also, socialist countries don't allow for people with "expensive" treatments to live, there's a reason America is the only country with "million dollar babies."
I'm against the Iraq War, but you can't compare a soldier killing the enemy in a war to being pro-death. By that logic, left-wing politicians are pro-death too; Obama supported Libya, LBJ supported Vietnam, FDR supported WW2, Woodrow Wilson supported WW1, Jefferson Davis supported the Civil War, etc.
As for healthcare, how does asking that people stand on their own two feet instead of begging for handouts make you pro-death? I could just as easily argue the same about socialist healthcare, since socialist healthcare is of such an attrocious quality that people die from lack of quality care. Also, socialist countries don't allow for people with "expensive" treatments to live, there's a reason America is the only country with "million dollar babies."
facts please or never, ever talk about other countries you obviously have absolutely no clue about ever again.
On September 06 2012 06:05 NonCorporeal wrote: @dvorakftw
It's hilarious when Democrats say they are "pro-choice," yet they insist on banning guns, banning "unhealthy" food, forcing everyone to join trade unions, etc.
It's hilarious when Republicans say they are pro-life given their foreign policy. It is a two way street, and this is coming from a guy who is an avid gun shooter/trainer.
The older I get the more I see how the left (not necessarily Democrats) usually is correct.
What's not pro-life about our foreign policy?
How is big government, taking away freedom, and the idea that people should be subservient to the state, "correct?"
Oh, I don't know. Maybe starting decade long wars which result in hundreds of thousands of deaths. But you are right. I can see how it may be tough to get your mind around.
I do not mind big government economically. Some of the top performing economies of the last 20 some odd years have had a strong central government. China, Japan (from ww2 to the 90's), Singapore, etc. You can add some Euro countries to that list. Take the German auto industry. They pay their workers twice as much, produce better quality vehicles, and are much more productive.
I do not get this whole notion that "government is the problem, evil, blah". I used to be in that camp too. I was a hardcore libertarian, had an anarcho-capitalist phase, etc. I eventually saw the light. A government that is really run by the people. The working class. The majority of a population. It is a beautiful thing. A government ran by big business and financial warlords, like we have now, always leads to despotism.
Japan, Singapore, and to a lesser extent, China, have all been adopting capitalism. I'm not saying there shouldn't be some government, but it has gotten far out of hand, surely even you can realize that?
On September 06 2012 06:05 NonCorporeal wrote: @dvorakftw
It's hilarious when Democrats say they are "pro-choice," yet they insist on banning guns, banning "unhealthy" food, forcing everyone to join trade unions, etc.
It's hilarious when Republicans say they are "pro-life", yet they insist on relaxed gun laws and unregulated gun sales, repealing health care regulations so that insurers can deny or limit everyone's coverage, and force everyone to pay for a brutal 11-year war in Iraq without just cause.
See what I did there? Eh? Eh?
All of the evidence shows that gun control increases crime, especially murder rates; both in the United States and Europe. Every time the socialists try to implement gun control, it results in higher murder rates, if anything, supporting gun control means you're pro-death.
As for healthcare, how does asking that people stand on their own two feet instead of begging for handouts make you pro-death? I could just as easily argue the same about socialist healthcare, since socialist healthcare is of such an attrocious quality that people die from lack of quality care. Also, socialist countries don't allow for people with "expensive" treatments to live, there's a reason America is the only country with "million dollar babies."
I'm against the Iraq War, but you can't compare a soldier killing the enemy in a war to being pro-death. By that logic, left-wing politicians are pro-death too; Obama supported Libya, LBJ supported Vietnam, FDR supported WW2, Woodrow Wilson supported WW1, Jefferson Davis supported the Civil War, etc.
Please do not use words that you do not know the meaning to. Specifically, socialism.
Countries with "socialist" healthcare blow our sorry excuse for one out of the water. We are the 37th "best" in the world. We pay twice as much as other countries for much less care. Who are at the top? France, Canada, England, and so on. We could do ourselves a favor and learn from these countries. Our infant mortality rate is worse than Cuba (last I checked) for crying out loud. They are a third world country and can provide healthcare for all their citizens.
EPT
