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On August 17 2012 04:36 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 04:32 kwizach wrote:On August 17 2012 04:28 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:20 KwarK wrote:On August 17 2012 04:12 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:04 KwarK wrote:On August 17 2012 03:58 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 03:43 KwarK wrote:On August 17 2012 03:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 03:28 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
You completely missed the point. I said it was sexist. You said it wasn't sexist, it was rational based upon the following sexist assumptions. I said that the assumptions were sexist and therefore the conclusion was sexist and explained it using a parallel with racism. Please read what I wrote again. Nowhere did I say that because blacks aren't inferior abortion is okay, that's the kind of random conclusion I keep asking you not to make.
I'll run it by you again.
Saying "I don't think blacks are inferior for racist reasons, it's my logical conclusion that they're inferior because they're all worse because *bunch of racist cliches*" is the same as saying "I don't oppose abortion because I am sexist, it's my logical conclusion based upon my opinion that a women's wishes are less valuable than a bunch of inanimate parasitic cells".
The assumption itself is sexist so the conclusion is sexist. No, your logic sucks. The value of a woman's wishes is not being brought down, the value of the "inanimate parasitic cells" is being brought up to the level of both men and women. Therefore, it is not sexist. Let me say it again. There is nothing sexist with treating an unborn child the same as both men and women. And this is where it becomes the privileged group demanding that the other group martyr themselves for a cause that they will never have to suffer for. Mighty convenient that we drew the line at conception, right where the male obligation ends. We get to orgasm all we want and they get obligations but it's not sexist at all because it's just where the line happens to be, it's not our fault that we're all equal but only women actually have to suffer for it. You can't draw a line that says woman have to martyr themselves and men don't and then go "that's just where the line is, sorry, it's just one of those things, I'm not sexist though". Since when are men off the hook at conception? Are you telling me that I can knock up as many chicks as I want and walk away from all responsibility? Well, since you brought it up, please, go on. Tell me all about how the sacrifices you make for the unborn rival those that conservative America wishes to legally require women to make. You are going down a ridiculous line of thought. Just because one group of people suffers more from a given (or proposed) law has NEVER meant that only that group can have an opinion about it. Does this evasion mean you no longer wish to argue that the line being drawn at conception doesn't in any way place a greater obligation on one gender than the other? If I may recap to remind you how we got here so you might properly phrase your response rather than a weak attempt to dismiss the entire line. I said that uneven obligations were placed on women. You then claimed that men have obligations too (this didn't actually refute my argument that the obligations were uneven but you implied that it somehow would). I then asked you to clarify what the male obligations that made abortion law not place an uneven burden on women were. Am I correct in understanding that you no longer wish to argue that the male obligations to an unborn rival those that pro-lifers wish women to be legally obliged to do? If so, what is the relevance of "Since when are men off the hook at conception? Are you telling me that I can knock up as many chicks as I want and walk away from all responsibility?" in the face of my argument regarding uneven responsibility? If you no longer wish to argue the obligations are equal then please elaborate on why you decided to mention that men have some obligation in an isolated statement without any broader point. Which point were you trying to make? You said "right where the male obligation ends" implying that male obligation, well, ended. You did NOT state that obligations were unequal. You are now misrepresenting your original argument. It is off-topic anyways. You were trying to explain why being pro-life is anit-women. Just because it impacts women more doesn't make it anti-women any more than advocating military action is anti-men. It is a completely wrong headed line of argument. Whose Supreme Court-sanctioned rights are pro-life people trying to impact? Women's. Men have a constitutional right to an opinion that you are trying to squelch. So you are anti-men. You sexist bastard.
Where have I tried to deny you of having an opinion? That's right, nowhere.
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On August 17 2012 04:41 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 04:36 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:32 kwizach wrote:On August 17 2012 04:28 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:20 KwarK wrote:On August 17 2012 04:12 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:04 KwarK wrote:On August 17 2012 03:58 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 03:43 KwarK wrote:On August 17 2012 03:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
[quote]
No, your logic sucks. The value of a woman's wishes is not being brought down, the value of the "inanimate parasitic cells" is being brought up to the level of both men and women. Therefore, it is not sexist.
Let me say it again. There is nothing sexist with treating an unborn child the same as both men and women. And this is where it becomes the privileged group demanding that the other group martyr themselves for a cause that they will never have to suffer for. Mighty convenient that we drew the line at conception, right where the male obligation ends. We get to orgasm all we want and they get obligations but it's not sexist at all because it's just where the line happens to be, it's not our fault that we're all equal but only women actually have to suffer for it. You can't draw a line that says woman have to martyr themselves and men don't and then go "that's just where the line is, sorry, it's just one of those things, I'm not sexist though". Since when are men off the hook at conception? Are you telling me that I can knock up as many chicks as I want and walk away from all responsibility? Well, since you brought it up, please, go on. Tell me all about how the sacrifices you make for the unborn rival those that conservative America wishes to legally require women to make. You are going down a ridiculous line of thought. Just because one group of people suffers more from a given (or proposed) law has NEVER meant that only that group can have an opinion about it. Does this evasion mean you no longer wish to argue that the line being drawn at conception doesn't in any way place a greater obligation on one gender than the other? If I may recap to remind you how we got here so you might properly phrase your response rather than a weak attempt to dismiss the entire line. I said that uneven obligations were placed on women. You then claimed that men have obligations too (this didn't actually refute my argument that the obligations were uneven but you implied that it somehow would). I then asked you to clarify what the male obligations that made abortion law not place an uneven burden on women were. Am I correct in understanding that you no longer wish to argue that the male obligations to an unborn rival those that pro-lifers wish women to be legally obliged to do? If so, what is the relevance of "Since when are men off the hook at conception? Are you telling me that I can knock up as many chicks as I want and walk away from all responsibility?" in the face of my argument regarding uneven responsibility? If you no longer wish to argue the obligations are equal then please elaborate on why you decided to mention that men have some obligation in an isolated statement without any broader point. Which point were you trying to make? You said "right where the male obligation ends" implying that male obligation, well, ended. You did NOT state that obligations were unequal. You are now misrepresenting your original argument. It is off-topic anyways. You were trying to explain why being pro-life is anit-women. Just because it impacts women more doesn't make it anti-women any more than advocating military action is anti-men. It is a completely wrong headed line of argument. Whose Supreme Court-sanctioned rights are pro-life people trying to impact? Women's. Men have a constitutional right to an opinion that you are trying to squelch. So you are anti-men. You sexist bastard. An opinion does not mean you get the legal right to tell someone what they can do with their body...
The government has that right. And people have the right to tell the government what to do.
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On August 17 2012 04:41 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 04:36 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:32 kwizach wrote:On August 17 2012 04:28 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:20 KwarK wrote:On August 17 2012 04:12 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:04 KwarK wrote:On August 17 2012 03:58 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 03:43 KwarK wrote:On August 17 2012 03:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
[quote]
No, your logic sucks. The value of a woman's wishes is not being brought down, the value of the "inanimate parasitic cells" is being brought up to the level of both men and women. Therefore, it is not sexist.
Let me say it again. There is nothing sexist with treating an unborn child the same as both men and women. And this is where it becomes the privileged group demanding that the other group martyr themselves for a cause that they will never have to suffer for. Mighty convenient that we drew the line at conception, right where the male obligation ends. We get to orgasm all we want and they get obligations but it's not sexist at all because it's just where the line happens to be, it's not our fault that we're all equal but only women actually have to suffer for it. You can't draw a line that says woman have to martyr themselves and men don't and then go "that's just where the line is, sorry, it's just one of those things, I'm not sexist though". Since when are men off the hook at conception? Are you telling me that I can knock up as many chicks as I want and walk away from all responsibility? Well, since you brought it up, please, go on. Tell me all about how the sacrifices you make for the unborn rival those that conservative America wishes to legally require women to make. You are going down a ridiculous line of thought. Just because one group of people suffers more from a given (or proposed) law has NEVER meant that only that group can have an opinion about it. Does this evasion mean you no longer wish to argue that the line being drawn at conception doesn't in any way place a greater obligation on one gender than the other? If I may recap to remind you how we got here so you might properly phrase your response rather than a weak attempt to dismiss the entire line. I said that uneven obligations were placed on women. You then claimed that men have obligations too (this didn't actually refute my argument that the obligations were uneven but you implied that it somehow would). I then asked you to clarify what the male obligations that made abortion law not place an uneven burden on women were. Am I correct in understanding that you no longer wish to argue that the male obligations to an unborn rival those that pro-lifers wish women to be legally obliged to do? If so, what is the relevance of "Since when are men off the hook at conception? Are you telling me that I can knock up as many chicks as I want and walk away from all responsibility?" in the face of my argument regarding uneven responsibility? If you no longer wish to argue the obligations are equal then please elaborate on why you decided to mention that men have some obligation in an isolated statement without any broader point. Which point were you trying to make? You said "right where the male obligation ends" implying that male obligation, well, ended. You did NOT state that obligations were unequal. You are now misrepresenting your original argument. It is off-topic anyways. You were trying to explain why being pro-life is anit-women. Just because it impacts women more doesn't make it anti-women any more than advocating military action is anti-men. It is a completely wrong headed line of argument. Whose Supreme Court-sanctioned rights are pro-life people trying to impact? Women's. Men have a constitutional right to an opinion that you are trying to squelch. So you are anti-men. You sexist bastard. An opinion does not mean you get the legal right to tell someone what they can do with their body...
No, but he does get to point out that this isn't solely a woman's choice about something to do with her own body. We have to balance principles because there is another life at stake. It creates a clear distinction from other choices women have, such as the right to excise a cancer or get breast implants or get fat sucked out.
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But that depends on your definition of human life.
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United States41970 Posts
On August 17 2012 04:39 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 04:34 KwarK wrote:On August 17 2012 04:28 jdseemoreglass wrote:
It is nature which places a greater obligation on the mother than the father, first of all, but that's not too important either way.
xDaunt is right in the sense that "emotion" does have a lot to do with policy and law. Most of our laws are based on some loose conception of morality, which in turn is based almost entirely on the evolved empathetic emotions. Most of the arguments against things like murder, violence, eventually boil down to some kind of emotional appeal, empathetic appeal. The reason abortion is such a contentious issue is because the degree of felt empathy for an unborn fetus differs from person to person. Just like some people love to eat beef every day and some people feel too much guilt to have a little cow in their diet. I thought murder was wrong because an individual does not have the right to kill another. That my rights ended where the rights of others started. My ethical system is pretty entrenched in personal liberty in that regard, murder doesn't get more wrong the more squeamish people get. You are making arbitrary statements... "Does not have the right" is completely arbitrary. You could have some complex philosophical system to try and justify it, but those systems eventually end up appealing to evolved empathetic emotions. In fact, you cannot have ANY system that places value, that calls one thing "good" and another "bad" without ultimately relying on subjective emotions and inclinations. Obviously killing DOES get less wrong the less squeamish people get... It isn't illegal to kill a mosquito, because people don't care. It is legal to put down a dog in some cases and illegal to harm a dog in others... it all comes down to squeamishness, abortion is a perfect example of that.
Now we're massively off topic but I'm enjoying it so I'm going to continue. You're arguing that my ethical system can't be right because the real world doesn't reflect it. I don't think it should be illegal to harm a dog, provided that the dog is your dog and you do it in private so that the rights of nobody else are impacted in any way. You've grouped abortion law (which I disagree with as an imposition upon human freedom) with animal cruelty law (which I also disagree with). My ethical stance is consistent in placing only value upon individuals.
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On August 17 2012 04:47 Recognizable wrote:
But that depends on your definition of human life.
And we're back to square one. Which is why all abortion debates are pretty stupid... But people seem to enjoy the merry-go-round 
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On August 17 2012 04:44 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 04:41 DoubleReed wrote:On August 17 2012 04:36 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:32 kwizach wrote:On August 17 2012 04:28 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:20 KwarK wrote:On August 17 2012 04:12 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:04 KwarK wrote:On August 17 2012 03:58 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 03:43 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
And this is where it becomes the privileged group demanding that the other group martyr themselves for a cause that they will never have to suffer for. Mighty convenient that we drew the line at conception, right where the male obligation ends. We get to orgasm all we want and they get obligations but it's not sexist at all because it's just where the line happens to be, it's not our fault that we're all equal but only women actually have to suffer for it.
You can't draw a line that says woman have to martyr themselves and men don't and then go "that's just where the line is, sorry, it's just one of those things, I'm not sexist though". Since when are men off the hook at conception? Are you telling me that I can knock up as many chicks as I want and walk away from all responsibility? Well, since you brought it up, please, go on. Tell me all about how the sacrifices you make for the unborn rival those that conservative America wishes to legally require women to make. You are going down a ridiculous line of thought. Just because one group of people suffers more from a given (or proposed) law has NEVER meant that only that group can have an opinion about it. Does this evasion mean you no longer wish to argue that the line being drawn at conception doesn't in any way place a greater obligation on one gender than the other? If I may recap to remind you how we got here so you might properly phrase your response rather than a weak attempt to dismiss the entire line. I said that uneven obligations were placed on women. You then claimed that men have obligations too (this didn't actually refute my argument that the obligations were uneven but you implied that it somehow would). I then asked you to clarify what the male obligations that made abortion law not place an uneven burden on women were. Am I correct in understanding that you no longer wish to argue that the male obligations to an unborn rival those that pro-lifers wish women to be legally obliged to do? If so, what is the relevance of "Since when are men off the hook at conception? Are you telling me that I can knock up as many chicks as I want and walk away from all responsibility?" in the face of my argument regarding uneven responsibility? If you no longer wish to argue the obligations are equal then please elaborate on why you decided to mention that men have some obligation in an isolated statement without any broader point. Which point were you trying to make? You said "right where the male obligation ends" implying that male obligation, well, ended. You did NOT state that obligations were unequal. You are now misrepresenting your original argument. It is off-topic anyways. You were trying to explain why being pro-life is anit-women. Just because it impacts women more doesn't make it anti-women any more than advocating military action is anti-men. It is a completely wrong headed line of argument. Whose Supreme Court-sanctioned rights are pro-life people trying to impact? Women's. Men have a constitutional right to an opinion that you are trying to squelch. So you are anti-men. You sexist bastard. An opinion does not mean you get the legal right to tell someone what they can do with their body... The government has that right. And people have the right to tell the government what to do.
What the fuck government are you talking about? Since when does the government have that right? If anything it specifically does not have that right. In all other circumstances it is a decision between a woman and her doctor, not woman, doctor, and politician.
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United States41970 Posts
On August 17 2012 04:46 coverpunch wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 04:41 DoubleReed wrote:On August 17 2012 04:36 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:32 kwizach wrote:On August 17 2012 04:28 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:20 KwarK wrote:On August 17 2012 04:12 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:04 KwarK wrote:On August 17 2012 03:58 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 03:43 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
And this is where it becomes the privileged group demanding that the other group martyr themselves for a cause that they will never have to suffer for. Mighty convenient that we drew the line at conception, right where the male obligation ends. We get to orgasm all we want and they get obligations but it's not sexist at all because it's just where the line happens to be, it's not our fault that we're all equal but only women actually have to suffer for it.
You can't draw a line that says woman have to martyr themselves and men don't and then go "that's just where the line is, sorry, it's just one of those things, I'm not sexist though". Since when are men off the hook at conception? Are you telling me that I can knock up as many chicks as I want and walk away from all responsibility? Well, since you brought it up, please, go on. Tell me all about how the sacrifices you make for the unborn rival those that conservative America wishes to legally require women to make. You are going down a ridiculous line of thought. Just because one group of people suffers more from a given (or proposed) law has NEVER meant that only that group can have an opinion about it. Does this evasion mean you no longer wish to argue that the line being drawn at conception doesn't in any way place a greater obligation on one gender than the other? If I may recap to remind you how we got here so you might properly phrase your response rather than a weak attempt to dismiss the entire line. I said that uneven obligations were placed on women. You then claimed that men have obligations too (this didn't actually refute my argument that the obligations were uneven but you implied that it somehow would). I then asked you to clarify what the male obligations that made abortion law not place an uneven burden on women were. Am I correct in understanding that you no longer wish to argue that the male obligations to an unborn rival those that pro-lifers wish women to be legally obliged to do? If so, what is the relevance of "Since when are men off the hook at conception? Are you telling me that I can knock up as many chicks as I want and walk away from all responsibility?" in the face of my argument regarding uneven responsibility? If you no longer wish to argue the obligations are equal then please elaborate on why you decided to mention that men have some obligation in an isolated statement without any broader point. Which point were you trying to make? You said "right where the male obligation ends" implying that male obligation, well, ended. You did NOT state that obligations were unequal. You are now misrepresenting your original argument. It is off-topic anyways. You were trying to explain why being pro-life is anit-women. Just because it impacts women more doesn't make it anti-women any more than advocating military action is anti-men. It is a completely wrong headed line of argument. Whose Supreme Court-sanctioned rights are pro-life people trying to impact? Women's. Men have a constitutional right to an opinion that you are trying to squelch. So you are anti-men. You sexist bastard. An opinion does not mean you get the legal right to tell someone what they can do with their body... No, but he does get to point out that this isn't solely a woman's choice about something to do with her own body. We have to balance principles because there is another life at stake. It creates a clear distinction from other choices women have, such as the right to excise a cancer or get breast implants or get fat sucked out.
There are thousands of potential lives at stake with pretty much any decision you make. You could fuck a girl in the next minute and a potential human life could happen. You could fuck her at a different angle and maybe a different sperm would make it there and a different human would happen. Abortion deals with just one potential life, the decisions you make on a date impact literally millions.
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On August 17 2012 04:43 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 04:36 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:32 kwizach wrote:On August 17 2012 04:28 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:20 KwarK wrote:On August 17 2012 04:12 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:04 KwarK wrote:On August 17 2012 03:58 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 03:43 KwarK wrote:On August 17 2012 03:40 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
[quote]
No, your logic sucks. The value of a woman's wishes is not being brought down, the value of the "inanimate parasitic cells" is being brought up to the level of both men and women. Therefore, it is not sexist.
Let me say it again. There is nothing sexist with treating an unborn child the same as both men and women. And this is where it becomes the privileged group demanding that the other group martyr themselves for a cause that they will never have to suffer for. Mighty convenient that we drew the line at conception, right where the male obligation ends. We get to orgasm all we want and they get obligations but it's not sexist at all because it's just where the line happens to be, it's not our fault that we're all equal but only women actually have to suffer for it. You can't draw a line that says woman have to martyr themselves and men don't and then go "that's just where the line is, sorry, it's just one of those things, I'm not sexist though". Since when are men off the hook at conception? Are you telling me that I can knock up as many chicks as I want and walk away from all responsibility? Well, since you brought it up, please, go on. Tell me all about how the sacrifices you make for the unborn rival those that conservative America wishes to legally require women to make. You are going down a ridiculous line of thought. Just because one group of people suffers more from a given (or proposed) law has NEVER meant that only that group can have an opinion about it. Does this evasion mean you no longer wish to argue that the line being drawn at conception doesn't in any way place a greater obligation on one gender than the other? If I may recap to remind you how we got here so you might properly phrase your response rather than a weak attempt to dismiss the entire line. I said that uneven obligations were placed on women. You then claimed that men have obligations too (this didn't actually refute my argument that the obligations were uneven but you implied that it somehow would). I then asked you to clarify what the male obligations that made abortion law not place an uneven burden on women were. Am I correct in understanding that you no longer wish to argue that the male obligations to an unborn rival those that pro-lifers wish women to be legally obliged to do? If so, what is the relevance of "Since when are men off the hook at conception? Are you telling me that I can knock up as many chicks as I want and walk away from all responsibility?" in the face of my argument regarding uneven responsibility? If you no longer wish to argue the obligations are equal then please elaborate on why you decided to mention that men have some obligation in an isolated statement without any broader point. Which point were you trying to make? You said "right where the male obligation ends" implying that male obligation, well, ended. You did NOT state that obligations were unequal. You are now misrepresenting your original argument. It is off-topic anyways. You were trying to explain why being pro-life is anit-women. Just because it impacts women more doesn't make it anti-women any more than advocating military action is anti-men. It is a completely wrong headed line of argument. Whose Supreme Court-sanctioned rights are pro-life people trying to impact? Women's. Men have a constitutional right to an opinion that you are trying to squelch. So you are anti-men. You sexist bastard. Where have I tried to deny you of having an opinion?
Sorry, that was KwarK's line of thought that men can't have an opinion about abortion.
A better response to you would be "so what?' Just because you are advocating a policy that would impact women more than men doesn't make you anti-women.
Coal miners are mostly men. Being anit-coal mine does not make you anti-men. It is an absurd line of thought.
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On August 17 2012 04:50 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 04:46 coverpunch wrote:On August 17 2012 04:41 DoubleReed wrote:On August 17 2012 04:36 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:32 kwizach wrote:On August 17 2012 04:28 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:20 KwarK wrote:On August 17 2012 04:12 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:04 KwarK wrote:On August 17 2012 03:58 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
[quote]
Since when are men off the hook at conception? Are you telling me that I can knock up as many chicks as I want and walk away from all responsibility? Well, since you brought it up, please, go on. Tell me all about how the sacrifices you make for the unborn rival those that conservative America wishes to legally require women to make. You are going down a ridiculous line of thought. Just because one group of people suffers more from a given (or proposed) law has NEVER meant that only that group can have an opinion about it. Does this evasion mean you no longer wish to argue that the line being drawn at conception doesn't in any way place a greater obligation on one gender than the other? If I may recap to remind you how we got here so you might properly phrase your response rather than a weak attempt to dismiss the entire line. I said that uneven obligations were placed on women. You then claimed that men have obligations too (this didn't actually refute my argument that the obligations were uneven but you implied that it somehow would). I then asked you to clarify what the male obligations that made abortion law not place an uneven burden on women were. Am I correct in understanding that you no longer wish to argue that the male obligations to an unborn rival those that pro-lifers wish women to be legally obliged to do? If so, what is the relevance of "Since when are men off the hook at conception? Are you telling me that I can knock up as many chicks as I want and walk away from all responsibility?" in the face of my argument regarding uneven responsibility? If you no longer wish to argue the obligations are equal then please elaborate on why you decided to mention that men have some obligation in an isolated statement without any broader point. Which point were you trying to make? You said "right where the male obligation ends" implying that male obligation, well, ended. You did NOT state that obligations were unequal. You are now misrepresenting your original argument. It is off-topic anyways. You were trying to explain why being pro-life is anit-women. Just because it impacts women more doesn't make it anti-women any more than advocating military action is anti-men. It is a completely wrong headed line of argument. Whose Supreme Court-sanctioned rights are pro-life people trying to impact? Women's. Men have a constitutional right to an opinion that you are trying to squelch. So you are anti-men. You sexist bastard. An opinion does not mean you get the legal right to tell someone what they can do with their body... No, but he does get to point out that this isn't solely a woman's choice about something to do with her own body. We have to balance principles because there is another life at stake. It creates a clear distinction from other choices women have, such as the right to excise a cancer or get breast implants or get fat sucked out. There are thousands of potential lives at stake with pretty much any decision you make. You could fuck a girl in the next minute and a potential human life could happen. You could fuck her at a different angle and maybe a different sperm would make it there and a different human would happen. Abortion deals with just one potential life, the decisions you make on a date impact literally millions.
You are missing the point. Pro-lifers think that the unborn child IS a life and not just a potential life.
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On August 17 2012 04:50 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 04:44 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:41 DoubleReed wrote:On August 17 2012 04:36 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:32 kwizach wrote:On August 17 2012 04:28 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:20 KwarK wrote:On August 17 2012 04:12 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:04 KwarK wrote:On August 17 2012 03:58 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
[quote]
Since when are men off the hook at conception? Are you telling me that I can knock up as many chicks as I want and walk away from all responsibility? Well, since you brought it up, please, go on. Tell me all about how the sacrifices you make for the unborn rival those that conservative America wishes to legally require women to make. You are going down a ridiculous line of thought. Just because one group of people suffers more from a given (or proposed) law has NEVER meant that only that group can have an opinion about it. Does this evasion mean you no longer wish to argue that the line being drawn at conception doesn't in any way place a greater obligation on one gender than the other? If I may recap to remind you how we got here so you might properly phrase your response rather than a weak attempt to dismiss the entire line. I said that uneven obligations were placed on women. You then claimed that men have obligations too (this didn't actually refute my argument that the obligations were uneven but you implied that it somehow would). I then asked you to clarify what the male obligations that made abortion law not place an uneven burden on women were. Am I correct in understanding that you no longer wish to argue that the male obligations to an unborn rival those that pro-lifers wish women to be legally obliged to do? If so, what is the relevance of "Since when are men off the hook at conception? Are you telling me that I can knock up as many chicks as I want and walk away from all responsibility?" in the face of my argument regarding uneven responsibility? If you no longer wish to argue the obligations are equal then please elaborate on why you decided to mention that men have some obligation in an isolated statement without any broader point. Which point were you trying to make? You said "right where the male obligation ends" implying that male obligation, well, ended. You did NOT state that obligations were unequal. You are now misrepresenting your original argument. It is off-topic anyways. You were trying to explain why being pro-life is anit-women. Just because it impacts women more doesn't make it anti-women any more than advocating military action is anti-men. It is a completely wrong headed line of argument. Whose Supreme Court-sanctioned rights are pro-life people trying to impact? Women's. Men have a constitutional right to an opinion that you are trying to squelch. So you are anti-men. You sexist bastard. An opinion does not mean you get the legal right to tell someone what they can do with their body... The government has that right. And people have the right to tell the government what to do. What the fuck government are you talking about? Since when does the government have that right? If anything it specifically does not have that right. In all other circumstances it is a decision between a woman and her doctor, not woman, doctor, and politician.
Well you are obviously operating on the premise that the fetus is not an interested party in this matter, and some people disagree with that premise.
It would be like me saying "Whether I decide to kill this unconscious victim I have is a personal choice and politicians have no right getting involved." Obviously they do, because there is another party which must be protected.
The entire debate is about definition.
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United States41970 Posts
On August 17 2012 04:53 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 04:43 kwizach wrote:On August 17 2012 04:36 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:32 kwizach wrote:On August 17 2012 04:28 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:20 KwarK wrote:On August 17 2012 04:12 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:04 KwarK wrote:On August 17 2012 03:58 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 03:43 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
And this is where it becomes the privileged group demanding that the other group martyr themselves for a cause that they will never have to suffer for. Mighty convenient that we drew the line at conception, right where the male obligation ends. We get to orgasm all we want and they get obligations but it's not sexist at all because it's just where the line happens to be, it's not our fault that we're all equal but only women actually have to suffer for it.
You can't draw a line that says woman have to martyr themselves and men don't and then go "that's just where the line is, sorry, it's just one of those things, I'm not sexist though". Since when are men off the hook at conception? Are you telling me that I can knock up as many chicks as I want and walk away from all responsibility? Well, since you brought it up, please, go on. Tell me all about how the sacrifices you make for the unborn rival those that conservative America wishes to legally require women to make. You are going down a ridiculous line of thought. Just because one group of people suffers more from a given (or proposed) law has NEVER meant that only that group can have an opinion about it. Does this evasion mean you no longer wish to argue that the line being drawn at conception doesn't in any way place a greater obligation on one gender than the other? If I may recap to remind you how we got here so you might properly phrase your response rather than a weak attempt to dismiss the entire line. I said that uneven obligations were placed on women. You then claimed that men have obligations too (this didn't actually refute my argument that the obligations were uneven but you implied that it somehow would). I then asked you to clarify what the male obligations that made abortion law not place an uneven burden on women were. Am I correct in understanding that you no longer wish to argue that the male obligations to an unborn rival those that pro-lifers wish women to be legally obliged to do? If so, what is the relevance of "Since when are men off the hook at conception? Are you telling me that I can knock up as many chicks as I want and walk away from all responsibility?" in the face of my argument regarding uneven responsibility? If you no longer wish to argue the obligations are equal then please elaborate on why you decided to mention that men have some obligation in an isolated statement without any broader point. Which point were you trying to make? You said "right where the male obligation ends" implying that male obligation, well, ended. You did NOT state that obligations were unequal. You are now misrepresenting your original argument. It is off-topic anyways. You were trying to explain why being pro-life is anit-women. Just because it impacts women more doesn't make it anti-women any more than advocating military action is anti-men. It is a completely wrong headed line of argument. Whose Supreme Court-sanctioned rights are pro-life people trying to impact? Women's. Men have a constitutional right to an opinion that you are trying to squelch. So you are anti-men. You sexist bastard. Where have I tried to deny you of having an opinion? Sorry, that was KwarK's line of thought that men can't have an opinion about abortion. A better response to you would be "so what?' Just because you are advocating a policy that would impact women more than men doesn't make you anti-women. Coal miners are mostly men. Being anit-coal mine does not make you anti-men. It is an absurd line of thought.
A bunch of men came up with a policy that exclusively places a legal obligation upon women based upon an idea that was first proposed by a bunch of men a thousand years ago, all of whom would be judged as massively sexist by pretty much anyone on any part of the political spectrum in today's society. It is sexist.
If a comparable example was done by a matriarchal society to men that'd be sexist too. Coal miners are irrelevant.
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On August 17 2012 04:53 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 04:43 kwizach wrote:On August 17 2012 04:36 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:32 kwizach wrote:On August 17 2012 04:28 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:20 KwarK wrote:On August 17 2012 04:12 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:04 KwarK wrote:On August 17 2012 03:58 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 03:43 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
And this is where it becomes the privileged group demanding that the other group martyr themselves for a cause that they will never have to suffer for. Mighty convenient that we drew the line at conception, right where the male obligation ends. We get to orgasm all we want and they get obligations but it's not sexist at all because it's just where the line happens to be, it's not our fault that we're all equal but only women actually have to suffer for it.
You can't draw a line that says woman have to martyr themselves and men don't and then go "that's just where the line is, sorry, it's just one of those things, I'm not sexist though". Since when are men off the hook at conception? Are you telling me that I can knock up as many chicks as I want and walk away from all responsibility? Well, since you brought it up, please, go on. Tell me all about how the sacrifices you make for the unborn rival those that conservative America wishes to legally require women to make. You are going down a ridiculous line of thought. Just because one group of people suffers more from a given (or proposed) law has NEVER meant that only that group can have an opinion about it. Does this evasion mean you no longer wish to argue that the line being drawn at conception doesn't in any way place a greater obligation on one gender than the other? If I may recap to remind you how we got here so you might properly phrase your response rather than a weak attempt to dismiss the entire line. I said that uneven obligations were placed on women. You then claimed that men have obligations too (this didn't actually refute my argument that the obligations were uneven but you implied that it somehow would). I then asked you to clarify what the male obligations that made abortion law not place an uneven burden on women were. Am I correct in understanding that you no longer wish to argue that the male obligations to an unborn rival those that pro-lifers wish women to be legally obliged to do? If so, what is the relevance of "Since when are men off the hook at conception? Are you telling me that I can knock up as many chicks as I want and walk away from all responsibility?" in the face of my argument regarding uneven responsibility? If you no longer wish to argue the obligations are equal then please elaborate on why you decided to mention that men have some obligation in an isolated statement without any broader point. Which point were you trying to make? You said "right where the male obligation ends" implying that male obligation, well, ended. You did NOT state that obligations were unequal. You are now misrepresenting your original argument. It is off-topic anyways. You were trying to explain why being pro-life is anit-women. Just because it impacts women more doesn't make it anti-women any more than advocating military action is anti-men. It is a completely wrong headed line of argument. Whose Supreme Court-sanctioned rights are pro-life people trying to impact? Women's. Men have a constitutional right to an opinion that you are trying to squelch. So you are anti-men. You sexist bastard. Where have I tried to deny you of having an opinion? Sorry, that was KwarK's line of thought that men can't have an opinion about abortion. A better response to you would be "so what?' Just because you are advocating a policy that would impact women more than men doesn't make you anti-women. Coal miners are mostly men. Being anit-coal mine does not make you anti-men. It is an absurd line of thought.
You are using straw man after straw man. KwarK is not arguing that you're not entitled to your opinion. He is describing one stance on abortion, namely the pro-life stance, as anti-women. What's the reasoning behind this? That the only people whose rights pro-lifers are trying to impact are women.
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United States41970 Posts
On August 17 2012 04:54 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 04:50 KwarK wrote:On August 17 2012 04:46 coverpunch wrote:On August 17 2012 04:41 DoubleReed wrote:On August 17 2012 04:36 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:32 kwizach wrote:On August 17 2012 04:28 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:20 KwarK wrote:On August 17 2012 04:12 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:04 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Well, since you brought it up, please, go on. Tell me all about how the sacrifices you make for the unborn rival those that conservative America wishes to legally require women to make.
You are going down a ridiculous line of thought. Just because one group of people suffers more from a given (or proposed) law has NEVER meant that only that group can have an opinion about it. Does this evasion mean you no longer wish to argue that the line being drawn at conception doesn't in any way place a greater obligation on one gender than the other? If I may recap to remind you how we got here so you might properly phrase your response rather than a weak attempt to dismiss the entire line. I said that uneven obligations were placed on women. You then claimed that men have obligations too (this didn't actually refute my argument that the obligations were uneven but you implied that it somehow would). I then asked you to clarify what the male obligations that made abortion law not place an uneven burden on women were. Am I correct in understanding that you no longer wish to argue that the male obligations to an unborn rival those that pro-lifers wish women to be legally obliged to do? If so, what is the relevance of "Since when are men off the hook at conception? Are you telling me that I can knock up as many chicks as I want and walk away from all responsibility?" in the face of my argument regarding uneven responsibility? If you no longer wish to argue the obligations are equal then please elaborate on why you decided to mention that men have some obligation in an isolated statement without any broader point. Which point were you trying to make? You said "right where the male obligation ends" implying that male obligation, well, ended. You did NOT state that obligations were unequal. You are now misrepresenting your original argument. It is off-topic anyways. You were trying to explain why being pro-life is anit-women. Just because it impacts women more doesn't make it anti-women any more than advocating military action is anti-men. It is a completely wrong headed line of argument. Whose Supreme Court-sanctioned rights are pro-life people trying to impact? Women's. Men have a constitutional right to an opinion that you are trying to squelch. So you are anti-men. You sexist bastard. An opinion does not mean you get the legal right to tell someone what they can do with their body... No, but he does get to point out that this isn't solely a woman's choice about something to do with her own body. We have to balance principles because there is another life at stake. It creates a clear distinction from other choices women have, such as the right to excise a cancer or get breast implants or get fat sucked out. There are thousands of potential lives at stake with pretty much any decision you make. You could fuck a girl in the next minute and a potential human life could happen. You could fuck her at a different angle and maybe a different sperm would make it there and a different human would happen. Abortion deals with just one potential life, the decisions you make on a date impact literally millions. You are missing the point. Pro-lifers think that the unborn child IS a life and not just a potential life.
Then they can go ahead and not get an abortion. If they feel that way then they can go ahead and freely choose not to get an abortion and nobody is legally obliged to do anything against their will.
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On August 17 2012 04:50 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 04:44 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:41 DoubleReed wrote:On August 17 2012 04:36 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:32 kwizach wrote:On August 17 2012 04:28 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:20 KwarK wrote:On August 17 2012 04:12 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:04 KwarK wrote:On August 17 2012 03:58 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
[quote]
Since when are men off the hook at conception? Are you telling me that I can knock up as many chicks as I want and walk away from all responsibility? Well, since you brought it up, please, go on. Tell me all about how the sacrifices you make for the unborn rival those that conservative America wishes to legally require women to make. You are going down a ridiculous line of thought. Just because one group of people suffers more from a given (or proposed) law has NEVER meant that only that group can have an opinion about it. Does this evasion mean you no longer wish to argue that the line being drawn at conception doesn't in any way place a greater obligation on one gender than the other? If I may recap to remind you how we got here so you might properly phrase your response rather than a weak attempt to dismiss the entire line. I said that uneven obligations were placed on women. You then claimed that men have obligations too (this didn't actually refute my argument that the obligations were uneven but you implied that it somehow would). I then asked you to clarify what the male obligations that made abortion law not place an uneven burden on women were. Am I correct in understanding that you no longer wish to argue that the male obligations to an unborn rival those that pro-lifers wish women to be legally obliged to do? If so, what is the relevance of "Since when are men off the hook at conception? Are you telling me that I can knock up as many chicks as I want and walk away from all responsibility?" in the face of my argument regarding uneven responsibility? If you no longer wish to argue the obligations are equal then please elaborate on why you decided to mention that men have some obligation in an isolated statement without any broader point. Which point were you trying to make? You said "right where the male obligation ends" implying that male obligation, well, ended. You did NOT state that obligations were unequal. You are now misrepresenting your original argument. It is off-topic anyways. You were trying to explain why being pro-life is anit-women. Just because it impacts women more doesn't make it anti-women any more than advocating military action is anti-men. It is a completely wrong headed line of argument. Whose Supreme Court-sanctioned rights are pro-life people trying to impact? Women's. Men have a constitutional right to an opinion that you are trying to squelch. So you are anti-men. You sexist bastard. An opinion does not mean you get the legal right to tell someone what they can do with their body... The government has that right. And people have the right to tell the government what to do. What the fuck government are you talking about? Since when does the government have that right? If anything it specifically does not have that right. In all other circumstances it is a decision between a woman and her doctor, not woman, doctor, and politician.
What the fuck planet do you live on? The government can tell you that you can and cannot do all kinds of stuff with your body.
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On August 17 2012 04:57 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 04:53 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:43 kwizach wrote:On August 17 2012 04:36 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:32 kwizach wrote:On August 17 2012 04:28 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:20 KwarK wrote:On August 17 2012 04:12 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:04 KwarK wrote:On August 17 2012 03:58 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
[quote]
Since when are men off the hook at conception? Are you telling me that I can knock up as many chicks as I want and walk away from all responsibility? Well, since you brought it up, please, go on. Tell me all about how the sacrifices you make for the unborn rival those that conservative America wishes to legally require women to make. You are going down a ridiculous line of thought. Just because one group of people suffers more from a given (or proposed) law has NEVER meant that only that group can have an opinion about it. Does this evasion mean you no longer wish to argue that the line being drawn at conception doesn't in any way place a greater obligation on one gender than the other? If I may recap to remind you how we got here so you might properly phrase your response rather than a weak attempt to dismiss the entire line. I said that uneven obligations were placed on women. You then claimed that men have obligations too (this didn't actually refute my argument that the obligations were uneven but you implied that it somehow would). I then asked you to clarify what the male obligations that made abortion law not place an uneven burden on women were. Am I correct in understanding that you no longer wish to argue that the male obligations to an unborn rival those that pro-lifers wish women to be legally obliged to do? If so, what is the relevance of "Since when are men off the hook at conception? Are you telling me that I can knock up as many chicks as I want and walk away from all responsibility?" in the face of my argument regarding uneven responsibility? If you no longer wish to argue the obligations are equal then please elaborate on why you decided to mention that men have some obligation in an isolated statement without any broader point. Which point were you trying to make? You said "right where the male obligation ends" implying that male obligation, well, ended. You did NOT state that obligations were unequal. You are now misrepresenting your original argument. It is off-topic anyways. You were trying to explain why being pro-life is anit-women. Just because it impacts women more doesn't make it anti-women any more than advocating military action is anti-men. It is a completely wrong headed line of argument. Whose Supreme Court-sanctioned rights are pro-life people trying to impact? Women's. Men have a constitutional right to an opinion that you are trying to squelch. So you are anti-men. You sexist bastard. Where have I tried to deny you of having an opinion? Sorry, that was KwarK's line of thought that men can't have an opinion about abortion. A better response to you would be "so what?' Just because you are advocating a policy that would impact women more than men doesn't make you anti-women. Coal miners are mostly men. Being anit-coal mine does not make you anti-men. It is an absurd line of thought. A bunch of men came up with a policy that exclusively places a legal obligation upon women based upon an idea that was first proposed by a bunch of men a thousand years ago, all of whom would be judged as massively sexist by pretty much anyone on any part of the political spectrum in today's society. It is sexist. If a comparable example was done by a matriarchal society to men that'd be sexist too. Coal miners are irrelevant.
So whether or not a proposed law is sexist depends upon the sex of the people advocating it? That really doesn't make sense to me, it sounds like a sexist notion in itself.
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On August 17 2012 04:58 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 04:53 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:43 kwizach wrote:On August 17 2012 04:36 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:32 kwizach wrote:On August 17 2012 04:28 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:20 KwarK wrote:On August 17 2012 04:12 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:04 KwarK wrote:On August 17 2012 03:58 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
[quote]
Since when are men off the hook at conception? Are you telling me that I can knock up as many chicks as I want and walk away from all responsibility? Well, since you brought it up, please, go on. Tell me all about how the sacrifices you make for the unborn rival those that conservative America wishes to legally require women to make. You are going down a ridiculous line of thought. Just because one group of people suffers more from a given (or proposed) law has NEVER meant that only that group can have an opinion about it. Does this evasion mean you no longer wish to argue that the line being drawn at conception doesn't in any way place a greater obligation on one gender than the other? If I may recap to remind you how we got here so you might properly phrase your response rather than a weak attempt to dismiss the entire line. I said that uneven obligations were placed on women. You then claimed that men have obligations too (this didn't actually refute my argument that the obligations were uneven but you implied that it somehow would). I then asked you to clarify what the male obligations that made abortion law not place an uneven burden on women were. Am I correct in understanding that you no longer wish to argue that the male obligations to an unborn rival those that pro-lifers wish women to be legally obliged to do? If so, what is the relevance of "Since when are men off the hook at conception? Are you telling me that I can knock up as many chicks as I want and walk away from all responsibility?" in the face of my argument regarding uneven responsibility? If you no longer wish to argue the obligations are equal then please elaborate on why you decided to mention that men have some obligation in an isolated statement without any broader point. Which point were you trying to make? You said "right where the male obligation ends" implying that male obligation, well, ended. You did NOT state that obligations were unequal. You are now misrepresenting your original argument. It is off-topic anyways. You were trying to explain why being pro-life is anit-women. Just because it impacts women more doesn't make it anti-women any more than advocating military action is anti-men. It is a completely wrong headed line of argument. Whose Supreme Court-sanctioned rights are pro-life people trying to impact? Women's. Men have a constitutional right to an opinion that you are trying to squelch. So you are anti-men. You sexist bastard. Where have I tried to deny you of having an opinion? Sorry, that was KwarK's line of thought that men can't have an opinion about abortion. A better response to you would be "so what?' Just because you are advocating a policy that would impact women more than men doesn't make you anti-women. Coal miners are mostly men. Being anit-coal mine does not make you anti-men. It is an absurd line of thought. You are using straw man after straw man. KwarK is not arguing that you're not entitled to your opinion. He is describing one stance on abortion, namely the pro-life stance, as anti-women. What's the reasoning behind this? That the only people whose rights pro-lifers are trying to impact are women.
If you are pro-life you have the opinion that you are impacting both the life of the mother and the life of the unborn child.
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On August 17 2012 04:58 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 04:54 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:50 KwarK wrote:On August 17 2012 04:46 coverpunch wrote:On August 17 2012 04:41 DoubleReed wrote:On August 17 2012 04:36 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:32 kwizach wrote:On August 17 2012 04:28 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:20 KwarK wrote:On August 17 2012 04:12 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
[quote]
You are going down a ridiculous line of thought. Just because one group of people suffers more from a given (or proposed) law has NEVER meant that only that group can have an opinion about it. Does this evasion mean you no longer wish to argue that the line being drawn at conception doesn't in any way place a greater obligation on one gender than the other? If I may recap to remind you how we got here so you might properly phrase your response rather than a weak attempt to dismiss the entire line. I said that uneven obligations were placed on women. You then claimed that men have obligations too (this didn't actually refute my argument that the obligations were uneven but you implied that it somehow would). I then asked you to clarify what the male obligations that made abortion law not place an uneven burden on women were. Am I correct in understanding that you no longer wish to argue that the male obligations to an unborn rival those that pro-lifers wish women to be legally obliged to do? If so, what is the relevance of "Since when are men off the hook at conception? Are you telling me that I can knock up as many chicks as I want and walk away from all responsibility?" in the face of my argument regarding uneven responsibility? If you no longer wish to argue the obligations are equal then please elaborate on why you decided to mention that men have some obligation in an isolated statement without any broader point. Which point were you trying to make? You said "right where the male obligation ends" implying that male obligation, well, ended. You did NOT state that obligations were unequal. You are now misrepresenting your original argument. It is off-topic anyways. You were trying to explain why being pro-life is anit-women. Just because it impacts women more doesn't make it anti-women any more than advocating military action is anti-men. It is a completely wrong headed line of argument. Whose Supreme Court-sanctioned rights are pro-life people trying to impact? Women's. Men have a constitutional right to an opinion that you are trying to squelch. So you are anti-men. You sexist bastard. An opinion does not mean you get the legal right to tell someone what they can do with their body... No, but he does get to point out that this isn't solely a woman's choice about something to do with her own body. We have to balance principles because there is another life at stake. It creates a clear distinction from other choices women have, such as the right to excise a cancer or get breast implants or get fat sucked out. There are thousands of potential lives at stake with pretty much any decision you make. You could fuck a girl in the next minute and a potential human life could happen. You could fuck her at a different angle and maybe a different sperm would make it there and a different human would happen. Abortion deals with just one potential life, the decisions you make on a date impact literally millions. You are missing the point. Pro-lifers think that the unborn child IS a life and not just a potential life. Then they can go ahead and not get an abortion. If they feel that way then they can go ahead and freely choose not to get an abortion and nobody is legally obliged to do anything against their will.
"If you are against murder, then make the choice to not commit murder, and let the rest of us choose for ourselves." That's not how it's supposed to work...
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United States41970 Posts
On August 17 2012 05:00 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 04:57 KwarK wrote:On August 17 2012 04:53 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:43 kwizach wrote:On August 17 2012 04:36 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:32 kwizach wrote:On August 17 2012 04:28 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:20 KwarK wrote:On August 17 2012 04:12 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:04 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
Well, since you brought it up, please, go on. Tell me all about how the sacrifices you make for the unborn rival those that conservative America wishes to legally require women to make.
You are going down a ridiculous line of thought. Just because one group of people suffers more from a given (or proposed) law has NEVER meant that only that group can have an opinion about it. Does this evasion mean you no longer wish to argue that the line being drawn at conception doesn't in any way place a greater obligation on one gender than the other? If I may recap to remind you how we got here so you might properly phrase your response rather than a weak attempt to dismiss the entire line. I said that uneven obligations were placed on women. You then claimed that men have obligations too (this didn't actually refute my argument that the obligations were uneven but you implied that it somehow would). I then asked you to clarify what the male obligations that made abortion law not place an uneven burden on women were. Am I correct in understanding that you no longer wish to argue that the male obligations to an unborn rival those that pro-lifers wish women to be legally obliged to do? If so, what is the relevance of "Since when are men off the hook at conception? Are you telling me that I can knock up as many chicks as I want and walk away from all responsibility?" in the face of my argument regarding uneven responsibility? If you no longer wish to argue the obligations are equal then please elaborate on why you decided to mention that men have some obligation in an isolated statement without any broader point. Which point were you trying to make? You said "right where the male obligation ends" implying that male obligation, well, ended. You did NOT state that obligations were unequal. You are now misrepresenting your original argument. It is off-topic anyways. You were trying to explain why being pro-life is anit-women. Just because it impacts women more doesn't make it anti-women any more than advocating military action is anti-men. It is a completely wrong headed line of argument. Whose Supreme Court-sanctioned rights are pro-life people trying to impact? Women's. Men have a constitutional right to an opinion that you are trying to squelch. So you are anti-men. You sexist bastard. Where have I tried to deny you of having an opinion? Sorry, that was KwarK's line of thought that men can't have an opinion about abortion. A better response to you would be "so what?' Just because you are advocating a policy that would impact women more than men doesn't make you anti-women. Coal miners are mostly men. Being anit-coal mine does not make you anti-men. It is an absurd line of thought. A bunch of men came up with a policy that exclusively places a legal obligation upon women based upon an idea that was first proposed by a bunch of men a thousand years ago, all of whom would be judged as massively sexist by pretty much anyone on any part of the political spectrum in today's society. It is sexist. If a comparable example was done by a matriarchal society to men that'd be sexist too. Coal miners are irrelevant. So whether or not a proposed law is sexist depends upon the sex of the people advocating it? That really doesn't make sense to me, it sounds like a sexist notion in itself.
You seem to have ignored the whole "exclusive legal obligation upon the other gender" part.
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On August 17 2012 04:58 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2012 04:54 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:50 KwarK wrote:On August 17 2012 04:46 coverpunch wrote:On August 17 2012 04:41 DoubleReed wrote:On August 17 2012 04:36 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:32 kwizach wrote:On August 17 2012 04:28 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 17 2012 04:20 KwarK wrote:On August 17 2012 04:12 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
[quote]
You are going down a ridiculous line of thought. Just because one group of people suffers more from a given (or proposed) law has NEVER meant that only that group can have an opinion about it. Does this evasion mean you no longer wish to argue that the line being drawn at conception doesn't in any way place a greater obligation on one gender than the other? If I may recap to remind you how we got here so you might properly phrase your response rather than a weak attempt to dismiss the entire line. I said that uneven obligations were placed on women. You then claimed that men have obligations too (this didn't actually refute my argument that the obligations were uneven but you implied that it somehow would). I then asked you to clarify what the male obligations that made abortion law not place an uneven burden on women were. Am I correct in understanding that you no longer wish to argue that the male obligations to an unborn rival those that pro-lifers wish women to be legally obliged to do? If so, what is the relevance of "Since when are men off the hook at conception? Are you telling me that I can knock up as many chicks as I want and walk away from all responsibility?" in the face of my argument regarding uneven responsibility? If you no longer wish to argue the obligations are equal then please elaborate on why you decided to mention that men have some obligation in an isolated statement without any broader point. Which point were you trying to make? You said "right where the male obligation ends" implying that male obligation, well, ended. You did NOT state that obligations were unequal. You are now misrepresenting your original argument. It is off-topic anyways. You were trying to explain why being pro-life is anit-women. Just because it impacts women more doesn't make it anti-women any more than advocating military action is anti-men. It is a completely wrong headed line of argument. Whose Supreme Court-sanctioned rights are pro-life people trying to impact? Women's. Men have a constitutional right to an opinion that you are trying to squelch. So you are anti-men. You sexist bastard. An opinion does not mean you get the legal right to tell someone what they can do with their body... No, but he does get to point out that this isn't solely a woman's choice about something to do with her own body. We have to balance principles because there is another life at stake. It creates a clear distinction from other choices women have, such as the right to excise a cancer or get breast implants or get fat sucked out. There are thousands of potential lives at stake with pretty much any decision you make. You could fuck a girl in the next minute and a potential human life could happen. You could fuck her at a different angle and maybe a different sperm would make it there and a different human would happen. Abortion deals with just one potential life, the decisions you make on a date impact literally millions. You are missing the point. Pro-lifers think that the unborn child IS a life and not just a potential life. Then they can go ahead and not get an abortion. If they feel that way then they can go ahead and freely choose not to get an abortion and nobody is legally obliged to do anything against their will.
If I have the opinion that an unborn child is a fully human life than I should be allowed to argue that it should be illegal to kill it.
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EPT
