EPTOn August 01 2012 01:48 xDaunt wrote:
It's a shame that he's backtracking, because he was correct.
It's a shame that he's backtracking, because he was correct.
He was off by nearly an order of magnitude in his numbers...that's hardly "correct".
President Obama Re-Elected - Page 225
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HunterX11
United States1048 Posts
He was off by nearly an order of magnitude in his numbers...that's hardly "correct". | ||
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kwizach
3658 Posts
On August 01 2012 01:48 xDaunt wrote: It's a shame that he's backtracking, because he was correct. He was anything but correct. | ||
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On August 01 2012 02:48 DoubleReed wrote: Huh? It's not like there's a homogenous middle eastern culture. If he did that it would simply be a separate statement. Most wealth in the middle east comes from oil and gas. Countries in the middle east that a rich are oil rich, those that are poor are oil poor... except for Israel. So the country is unique in the sense. Comparing Israel to Palestine doesn't work as well since the water is so muddied. | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On August 01 2012 03:19 JonnyBNoHo wrote: Most wealth in the middle east comes from oil and gas. Countries in the middle east that a rich are oil rich, those that are poor are oil poor... except for Israel. So the country is unique in the sense. Comparing Israel to Palestine doesn't work as well since the water is so muddied. Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the israelis in a similar situation when they first arrived, but they immediately began to irrigate and build infrastructure. So they prospered but Palestine didn't. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On August 01 2012 02:20 DoubleReed wrote: Well isn't he partly accurate? I mean when the Israelis came didn't they immediately begin irrigating building infrastructure for the future? Why didn't the palestinians do that similarly? You can definitely make arguments for culture. At least at first. Right, that's exactly the point. You can look at any two populations with significant economic differences, and you almost inevitably will see significant cultural differences that are largely, if not predominantly, responsible for those economic differences. It applies in Europe. It applies in the US. It also applies in Israel and Palestine. Granted, the circumstances surrounding Israel and Palestine obviously make for a special case, but there is still an argument to be made that the Palestinians bear significant responsibility for their current situation. | ||
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1Eris1
United States5797 Posts
On August 01 2012 04:33 DoubleReed wrote: Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the israelis in a similar situation when they first arrived, but they immediately began to irrigate and build infrastructure. So they prospered but Palestine didn't. Yes and without risking delving this debate into murkier waters, I think it's fair to say that the Israeli's have rejected a lot of the dominant modern Islamist culture (that's not to say it represents all of the Middle East, it's just the most prevalent) which is, from a purely economic standpoint, "hindering" to societal development. But comparing them solely to Palestine was a poor example, even if it is partially true. | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On August 01 2012 04:36 xDaunt wrote: Right, that's exactly the point. You can look at any two populations with significant economic differences, and you almost inevitably will see significant cultural differences that are largely, if not predominantly, responsible for those economic differences. It applies in Europe. It applies in the US. It also applies in Israel and Palestine. Granted, the circumstances surrounding Israel and Palestine obviously make for a special case, but there is still an argument to be made that the Palestinians bear significant responsibility for their current situation. Well, it's a bit strange to say they "bear responsibility." That's kind of like blaming the children for their parents' failure. There's no need to blame the victim here. I only see such an attitude exacerbating the problem. Identifying the issue as a cultural one as well as the oppression and such is helpful though. | ||
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HunterX11
United States1048 Posts
On August 01 2012 04:36 xDaunt wrote: Right, that's exactly the point. You can look at any two populations with significant economic differences, and you almost inevitably will see significant cultural differences that are largely, if not predominantly, responsible for those economic differences. It applies in Europe. It applies in the US. It also applies in Israel and Palestine. Granted, the circumstances surrounding Israel and Palestine obviously make for a special case, but there is still an argument to be made that the Palestinians bear significant responsibility for their current situation. Oh please, this is blatant racism and colonialist apologism. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On August 01 2012 05:13 HunterX11 wrote: Oh please, this is blatant racism and colonialist apologism. The truth's a bitch, ain't it? The apologists are the ones who won't hold people accountable for their failures. | ||
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On August 01 2012 04:33 DoubleReed wrote: Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the israelis in a similar situation when they first arrived, but they immediately began to irrigate and build infrastructure. So they prospered but Palestine didn't. As far as I know you are right. I guess I'm trying to say that it would have been smarter for Romney to compare Israel in a more politically neutral way. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
I posit to you that this disparity is strictly the result of cultural differences between the two populations, and I have yet to hear a satisfactory explanation to the contrary. However, I'm all ears. | ||
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Facultyadjutant
Sweden1876 Posts
On August 01 2012 05:21 JonnyBNoHo wrote: As far as I know you are right. I guess I'm trying to say that it would have been smarter for Romney to compare Israel in a more politically neutral way. Well it´s quite easy if you are having a massive backing from the world and of course: USA | ||
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Signet
United States1718 Posts
On August 01 2012 05:13 HunterX11 wrote: Oh please, this is blatant racism and colonialist apologism. Um what? How is it racist or colonialist to say that some European countries are richer than others because of, among other things, cultural differences? Within America, you do know that some of the groups in the worst poverty traps are the mostly white... um, "trailer trash" to be blunt. He's been quite clear that Palestine has a lot of other things against it. But it's ridiculous to think cultural differences between, say, New York and Alabama matter, but cultural differences between Palestine and its richer neighbors don't. Racism itself most likely is a hindrance to economic development. Think about it - if you're not willing to engage in economic activity with someone, or consider their ideas equally, because of the color of their skin, then that's going to lead to economic inefficiencies. Earlier this month, the urban economist Richard Florida wrote about how a tolerant culture contributes to economic success. http://www.theatlanticcities.com/neighborhoods/2012/07/geography-tolerance/2241/ | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On August 01 2012 05:26 xDaunt wrote: And just because I'm in the mood to start a shitstorm, let me expound upon this a little bit by providing a textbook example of why culture matters with regards to economic success. Let's compare the Asian and African-American communities in the US. Both populations had pretty shitty situations when they came to the US. Blacks were slaves or otherwise indentured servants (or barely better). Asians, though not technically slaves, were treated just as badly and sometimes worse. Hell, the Asians had to deal with laws that prohibited their ownership of real property. Now let's fast forward from the 19th century to now. I don't think anyone would dispute that Asians have been tremendously successful in this country whereas African-Americans, to put it charitably, are still a work in progress. Why is there still such a disparity after many generations? I posit to you that this disparity is strictly the result of cultural differences between the two populations, and I have yet to hear a satisfactory explanation to the contrary. However, I'm all ears. Wow, uh well the biggest reason is that blacks were much more harshly discriminated against. They were considered a different subspecies by many. Seriously, read what like Lincoln says about "negroids" and he looks like a rabid racist by today's standards. Hell, Gandhi was viciously racist towards blacks as well. Cultural value most likely also played a factor, but if you're going to act like Asians and Blacks were in the exact same situation then you're just mistaken. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On August 01 2012 05:37 DoubleReed wrote: Wow, uh well the biggest reason is that blacks were much more harshly discriminated against. They were considered a different subspecies by many. Seriously, read what like Lincoln says about "negroids" and he looks like a rabid racist by today's standards. Hell, Gandhi was viciously racist towards blacks as well. Cultural value most likely also played a factor, but if you're going to act like Asians and Blacks were in the exact same situation then you're just mistaken. I think you need to read up a bit more on Asian discrimination in the US. | ||
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Derez
Netherlands6068 Posts
On August 01 2012 05:18 xDaunt wrote: The truth's a bitch, ain't it? The apologists are the ones who won't hold people accountable for their failures. Cultural explanations are not taken very seriously in academic circles because there's no empirical evidence for them, even Weber's original formulation got disproven a few years back. In modern economic thinking, the much more relevant influence is the influence of economic circumstances on culture. To take use an obvious example: time is only relevant if you have somewhere to be at set hours, which is why watches are still uncommon in rural africa. Once a country starts developing economically, its culture automatically becomes more aligned with 'efficiency' or whatever term you want to use. The germans were once considered the laziest people in europe. The same went for americans, fins, irish, asians and pretty much every other nation that was once poor but is now rich. The reason the middle east is poorer than Israel is not because their culture impairs them, its because their own political structure and economic system do. Corruption, nepotism, state control over the most profitable sectors, you name it. Even in the 'tolerance' story, I'm not sure if tolerance creates economic succes or the economic succes creates tolerance. He makes that claim in the last sentence of his article, but offers no proof for the direction of the causal relation. I don't mean to say that there's no influence of culture on economics, but its minimal compared to the influence the other way around. Otherwise Germans, Americans, Japanese, Koreans, Taiwanese would still have to be lazy and be in dire economic situations. | ||
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Signet
United States1718 Posts
On August 01 2012 05:44 Derez wrote: I don't mean to say that there's no influence of culture on economics, but its minimal compared to the influence the other way around. I certainly agree that it's a positively reinforcing relationship. I think it has been documented that, when people become poorer than they were previously, they become more hostile towards differences. Whichever link is stronger, there is another question - what can people actually change? As difficult as it is to foster a culture more tuned to positive outcomes, it's also difficult to create a vibrant economy from nothing in a region where the culture is not already aligned with some degree of efficiency. Otherwise Germans, Americans, Japanese, Koreans, Taiwanese would still have to be lazy and be in dire economic situations. This goes in both directions though. These groups of people weren't always rich and didn't always have good institutions and infrastructure, so why didn't they remain stuck in a poverty trap indefinitely? Something changed in their thinking, which prompted them to adopt new political structures and economic systems. Political systems also reflect the local culture, and their legitimacy must be accepted by the population in order for them to be effective. http://www.american.com/archive/2012/april/the-challenge-of-achieving-a-liberal-order/ (on a related note, I feel that partisans' - the voters, not just the members doing legislative obstruction - absolute refusal to recognize the legitimacy of an administration governed by the other party is a serious obstacle blocking more effective governance in this country) | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On August 01 2012 05:42 xDaunt wrote: I think you need to read up a bit more on Asian discrimination in the US. Dude, you can't just be like "yea, these two groups were discriminated against really viciously so it's pretty much the same." That's idiotic. You think as a Jew I'm gonna go up to a black guy and start comparing the holocaust to slavery? That's offensive and abhorrent to both parties. Oh wait, you just want to start a shitstorm with your young adult white male mentality. Troll. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
WARSAW, Poland – A Mitt Romney spokesman reprimanded reporters traveling with the candidate on his six-day foreign trip this morning, telling them to “kiss my a**” after they shouted questions from behind a rope line. As Romney left the site of the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Warsaw and walked toward his motorcade parked in Pilsudski Square, reporters began shouting questions from the line where campaign staffers had told them to stay behind, prompting traveling press secretary Rick Gorka to tell a group of reporters to “kiss my a**” and “shove it.” He later apologized. Source | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22051 Posts
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