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On November 12 2012 12:57 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 12:35 Tarot wrote:On November 12 2012 12:00 sc2superfan101 wrote:
you guys do realize that the people getting the welfare in those red states are largely Democrats right? And yet those in democratic states are usually larger net contributors to federal tax. Funny how that works out  Doesn't that just reinforce the Republican's position that taxing and spending at the Federal level is less efficient? Ex: an appropriate tax bracket or benefit level in a high cost of living state may be inappropriate in a low cost of living state.
They'll quit feeling that way once their State stops receiving equalization payments that come from blue States.
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From PBS' website about exit polling data.
Income and Education Divide
Statistics can be tricky things. The Tuesday exit polls say President Obama won people making less than $100,000 and Mr. Romney won college graduates. But dig into those numbers a bit more and they look different.
For instance, look at the 10 wealthiest counties in America -- eight of them voted for Mr. Obama. And while Mr. Romney won college graduates (51 percent to 47 percent), Mr. Obama actually won those who had done post-graduate work (55 percent to 42 percent).
It will take some time to cross-analyze all those numbers, but they suggest a few possibilities.
They may mean Republicans are winning upper-middle class and wealthy voters, but could have longer-term problems with the very wealthy, who tend to have more advanced degrees. What seems clear in these numbers are some of the tensions within the Obama coalition. He won post-graduates, but he also captured 64 percent of the vote from those who did not graduate high school.
Those voters are bound to want different things out of government and seem set to be on different sides of the growing economic divide. It could become a tough balance for the Democrats to hold in the next few elections.
CNN's exit polling data
+ Show Spoiler +
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On November 12 2012 12:48 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 12:35 Tarot wrote:On November 12 2012 12:00 sc2superfan101 wrote:
you guys do realize that the people getting the welfare in those red states are largely Democrats right? And yet those in democratic states are usually larger net contributors to federal tax. Funny how that works out it's a case of not looking at the full picture. (disclaimer: I am not saying that all Democrats are on welfare, or that all Republicans are job creators/wealthy) Red states are generally poorer than blue states. there are multiple reasons for this, but it is generally true. and it is true that the poorer red states do receive more in benefits than they put out (I wonder if they add in the auto-bailout numbers, etc.) and the opposite is true in the richer blue states. however, states are not individuals, and just as I could say: "99% of all rapists eat tomatoes!!!" and it's true, it also is a very misleading statistic. especially when you try to imply something with it: (Republicans are the actual welfare queens / eating tomatoes makes you a rapist). the fact is that those people within the red states who are poorest, and thus receive the most benefits, tend to vote Democrat by a pretty wide margin. and those who are richer, and thus receive less benefits, tend to vote Republican. (note, again, that I said tend, not always) among the blue states, the ratio usually stays roughly the same. (also, state taxes be lower in them red states) poor people who get benefits generally vote Democrat, rich people who don't generally vote Republican (though in smaller numbers than in red states). everything gets skewed because those Democrats who are poor in the red states tend to be much poorer than their poor counterparts in the blue states. basically, it's a complete misunderstanding of statistics to think that because Red states receive more in federal benefits, that this holds true on an individual level.
No no. I didn't mean to imply that Republicans were welfare queens. I just found it funny that while Republicans, on average, have higher income and keep talking about spending responsibly and what not, they find themselves on the mooching side.
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On November 12 2012 12:59 sc2superfan101 wrote:
military pay accounts for only about 1/3 of the defense budget.
Hm, that's good. I had actually thought it was less than that.
And that still leaves for the money paid to weapons manufacturers, contractors, and (not sure if this is included in the 1/3 statistic?) the companies that provide services for the bases.
All of which is probably more than we spend on welfare. Then we still have the old age entitlement programs to add in as well. (places like FL and AZ tend to be retirement havens) And deductions/"tax expenditures" which are targeted towards married homeowners.
I'm just giving explanation for how the net flow of federal spending goes into the red states, since that has come up as a topic...
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On November 12 2012 13:09 XoXiDe wrote:From PBS' website about exit polling data. Income and Education Divide
Statistics can be tricky things. The Tuesday exit polls say President Obama won people making less than $100,000 and Mr. Romney won college graduates. But dig into those numbers a bit more and they look different.
For instance, look at the 10 wealthiest counties in America -- eight of them voted for Mr. Obama. And while Mr. Romney won college graduates (51 percent to 47 percent), Mr. Obama actually won those who had done post-graduate work (55 percent to 42 percent).
It will take some time to cross-analyze all those numbers, but they suggest a few possibilities.
They may mean Republicans are winning upper-middle class and wealthy voters, but could have longer-term problems with the very wealthy, who tend to have more advanced degrees. What seems clear in these numbers are some of the tensions within the Obama coalition. He won post-graduates, but he also captured 64 percent of the vote from those who did not graduate high school.Those voters are bound to want different things out of government and seem set to be on different sides of the growing economic divide. It could become a tough balance for the Democrats to hold in the next few elections.CNN's exit polling data + Show Spoiler +
I believe this data shows that Democrats are not all moochers (44%! of people with income over 100K voted for them) and that Republicans are not as anti-intellectual as their politicians make it seem they are. Can we call a truce now?
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On November 12 2012 13:02 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 12:57 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On November 12 2012 12:35 Tarot wrote:On November 12 2012 12:00 sc2superfan101 wrote:
you guys do realize that the people getting the welfare in those red states are largely Democrats right? And yet those in democratic states are usually larger net contributors to federal tax. Funny how that works out Doesn't that just reinforce the Republican's position that taxing and spending at the Federal level is less efficient? Ex: an appropriate tax bracket or benefit level in a high cost of living state may be inappropriate in a low cost of living state. They'll quit feeling that way once their State stops receiving equalization payments that come from blue States.
The US doesn't do equalization payments. Its just a matter of one state benefiting more than another program by program.
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On November 12 2012 13:09 XoXiDe wrote:From PBS' website about exit polling data. Income and Education Divide
Statistics can be tricky things. The Tuesday exit polls say President Obama won people making less than $100,000 and Mr. Romney won college graduates. But dig into those numbers a bit more and they look different.
For instance, look at the 10 wealthiest counties in America -- eight of them voted for Mr. Obama. And while Mr. Romney won college graduates (51 percent to 47 percent), Mr. Obama actually won those who had done post-graduate work (55 percent to 42 percent).
It will take some time to cross-analyze all those numbers, but they suggest a few possibilities.
They may mean Republicans are winning upper-middle class and wealthy voters, but could have longer-term problems with the very wealthy, who tend to have more advanced degrees. What seems clear in these numbers are some of the tensions within the Obama coalition. He won post-graduates, but he also captured 64 percent of the vote from those who did not graduate high school.Those voters are bound to want different things out of government and seem set to be on different sides of the growing economic divide. It could become a tough balance for the Democrats to hold in the next few elections.CNN's exit polling data + Show Spoiler +
Great points.
Time to plug this survey again -- I think the 8 political typologies Pew has identified to a good job of explaining the seeming contradictions between the two partisan coalitions.
http://www.people-press.org/typology/
I'd want something to confirm this... but it seems like the Libertarian, Post-Modern, and New Coalition Democrat groups are the ones that are growing the most. The net effect of this is movement towards the Democratic Party. The Republicans' options are to try to split those 3 groups more evenly, or win a larger share of Disaffecteds while simply not getting decimated in the Hispanic vote.
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On November 12 2012 12:12 Romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 12:06 aksfjh wrote:On November 12 2012 12:00 sc2superfan101 wrote:
you guys do realize that the people getting the welfare in those red states are largely Democrats right? That doesn't add up. Take Mississippi for example. Solid red state because whites are 60% of the population (ish?) and voted 90% Republican http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/11/10/1159759/-Percent-of-White-vote-won-by-Obama-2012-by-state. Blacks are 30-40% or whatever and vote 95% Democrat and don't have as high turnout. The state as a whole is solid Republican, but the voting patterns are very split basically along racial lines. Black people in Mississippi tend to be less educated and poorer Edit: and more children out of wedlock, early in life, more children etc and I would guarantee receive quite a bit more in per person welfare spending because of that. Pretty sure those numbers are roughly accurate Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 12:11 Funnytoss wrote:On November 12 2012 12:00 sc2superfan101 wrote:
you guys do realize that the people getting the welfare in those red states are largely Democrats right? Based on what? Your extensive research into the voting statistics and party identification of those receiving welfare in those particular states? yep
Whites in the South end up with a very large portion of welfare. Nationally, whites get about the same welfare spending as blacks, but less per capita.
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On November 12 2012 13:17 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 13:09 XoXiDe wrote:From PBS' website about exit polling data. Income and Education Divide
Statistics can be tricky things. The Tuesday exit polls say President Obama won people making less than $100,000 and Mr. Romney won college graduates. But dig into those numbers a bit more and they look different.
For instance, look at the 10 wealthiest counties in America -- eight of them voted for Mr. Obama. And while Mr. Romney won college graduates (51 percent to 47 percent), Mr. Obama actually won those who had done post-graduate work (55 percent to 42 percent).
It will take some time to cross-analyze all those numbers, but they suggest a few possibilities.
They may mean Republicans are winning upper-middle class and wealthy voters, but could have longer-term problems with the very wealthy, who tend to have more advanced degrees. What seems clear in these numbers are some of the tensions within the Obama coalition. He won post-graduates, but he also captured 64 percent of the vote from those who did not graduate high school.Those voters are bound to want different things out of government and seem set to be on different sides of the growing economic divide. It could become a tough balance for the Democrats to hold in the next few elections.CNN's exit polling data + Show Spoiler + I believe this data shows that Democrats are not all moochers (44%! of people with income over 100K voted for them) and that Republicans are not as anti-intellectual as their politicians make it seem they are. Can we call a truce now?
Sounds fair. I just wish that the Republican party didn't do such a good job with pushing loonies with a dearth of modern morality and common sense to the top. I'm technically a Democrat, but many Republican ideas hold water, and having to then look at their party platform and see "acting as backwards as fuck about human rights issues" is just disheartening.
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On November 12 2012 12:12 Romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 12:06 aksfjh wrote:On November 12 2012 12:00 sc2superfan101 wrote:
you guys do realize that the people getting the welfare in those red states are largely Democrats right? That doesn't add up. Take Mississippi for example. Solid red state because whites are 60% of the population (ish?) and voted 90% Republican http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/11/10/1159759/-Percent-of-White-vote-won-by-Obama-2012-by-state. Blacks are 30-40% or whatever and vote 95% Democrat and don't have as high turnout. The state as a whole is solid Republican, but the voting patterns are very split basically along racial lines. Black people in Mississippi tend to be less educated and poorer Edit: and more children out of wedlock, early in life, more children etc and I would guarantee receive quite a bit more in per person welfare spending because of that. Pretty sure those numbers are roughly accurate
This is a nice try, but it doesn't get the point across.
The original statement is "the people getting the welfare in those red states are largely Democrats". What you've demonstrated is that the voting patterns are split along racial lines. And you've suggested (notably without a link to any support or reference) that "I would guarantee receive quite a bit more in per person welfare spending because of that". That's wonderful, but that's not evidence. That's supposition.
In order for the majority of the poor people on welfare in Mississippi to be voting Democrat, you now have to demonstrate that there are more poor black people on welfare in Mississippi than poor white people on welfare. You have not. As you point out, 60% of the population is white, so that's a gap of at least 20%.
Or, to put it another way, if 50% of all black people in Mississippi receive welfare, all it would take to match that would be 33% of all white people receiving welfare. If 10% of blacks receive welfare, matching it only requires 6.67% of whites on welfare.
In short, you need to show that there are less than 7 white people receiving welfare for every 10 black people receiving it. Yet nowhere do you say that. You simply state that they are poorer, but you cite no actual welfare statistics.
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On November 12 2012 13:36 Signet wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 13:09 XoXiDe wrote:From PBS' website about exit polling data. Income and Education Divide
Statistics can be tricky things. The Tuesday exit polls say President Obama won people making less than $100,000 and Mr. Romney won college graduates. But dig into those numbers a bit more and they look different.
For instance, look at the 10 wealthiest counties in America -- eight of them voted for Mr. Obama. And while Mr. Romney won college graduates (51 percent to 47 percent), Mr. Obama actually won those who had done post-graduate work (55 percent to 42 percent).
It will take some time to cross-analyze all those numbers, but they suggest a few possibilities.
They may mean Republicans are winning upper-middle class and wealthy voters, but could have longer-term problems with the very wealthy, who tend to have more advanced degrees. What seems clear in these numbers are some of the tensions within the Obama coalition. He won post-graduates, but he also captured 64 percent of the vote from those who did not graduate high school.Those voters are bound to want different things out of government and seem set to be on different sides of the growing economic divide. It could become a tough balance for the Democrats to hold in the next few elections.CNN's exit polling data + Show Spoiler + Great points. Time to plug this survey again -- I think the 8 political typologies Pew has identified to a good job of explaining the seeming contradictions between the two partisan coalitions. http://www.people-press.org/typology/I'd want something to confirm this... but it seems like the Libertarian, Post-Modern, and New Coalition Democrat groups are the ones that are growing the most. The net effect of this is movement towards the Democratic Party. The Republicans' options are to try to split those 3 groups more evenly, or win a larger share of Disaffecteds while simply not getting decimated in the Hispanic vote.
Thanks for the link, was quite interesting. Everyone likes to talk about how different various Republican-supporting groups are, but this drives home the point that it's similar for both sides. I fell pretty neatly into the "Post-Modern" group, and I disagree pretty strongly with a lot of the other groups that voted for the same candidate
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On November 12 2012 13:36 Signet wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2012 13:09 XoXiDe wrote:From PBS' website about exit polling data. Income and Education Divide
Statistics can be tricky things. The Tuesday exit polls say President Obama won people making less than $100,000 and Mr. Romney won college graduates. But dig into those numbers a bit more and they look different.
For instance, look at the 10 wealthiest counties in America -- eight of them voted for Mr. Obama. And while Mr. Romney won college graduates (51 percent to 47 percent), Mr. Obama actually won those who had done post-graduate work (55 percent to 42 percent).
It will take some time to cross-analyze all those numbers, but they suggest a few possibilities.
They may mean Republicans are winning upper-middle class and wealthy voters, but could have longer-term problems with the very wealthy, who tend to have more advanced degrees. What seems clear in these numbers are some of the tensions within the Obama coalition. He won post-graduates, but he also captured 64 percent of the vote from those who did not graduate high school.Those voters are bound to want different things out of government and seem set to be on different sides of the growing economic divide. It could become a tough balance for the Democrats to hold in the next few elections.CNN's exit polling data + Show Spoiler + Great points. Time to plug this survey again -- I think the 8 political typologies Pew has identified to a good job of explaining the seeming contradictions between the two partisan coalitions. http://www.people-press.org/typology/I'd want something to confirm this... but it seems like the Libertarian, Post-Modern, and New Coalition Democrat groups are the ones that are growing the most. The net effect of this is movement towards the Democratic Party. The Republicans' options are to try to split those 3 groups more evenly, or win a larger share of Disaffecteds while simply not getting decimated in the Hispanic vote.
I got "Solid Liberal", so the test works in my case  , though I don't like some of the weird dualistic questions. I will proudly say that I am in the minority as a somewhat religious individual in a largely secular group.
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lol I got "Staunch Conservative"
pretty accurate, I must say.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
I'm Solidly Liberal. No surprises there, though a lot of the questions (like most other tests) were really quite deserving of a much more elaborate answer.
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Eh. I got post modern whereas I consider myself solidly liberal.
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On November 12 2012 14:18 Souma wrote:
I'm Solidly Liberal. No surprises there, though a lot of the questions (like most other tests) were really quite deserving of a much more elaborate answer.
Indeed. I'm generally in the strange non-existent category of being soft on environment regulations (we should expand exploration and harvesting of fossil fuels for now), but I don't think we should scale environment regulation back much further than it already is. I also see Wall Street as an essential tool in maximizing growth, but think it should be regulated more.
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Some christians believe forcing their religion and opinions on others through law is part of their freedom of religion.
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On November 12 2012 14:12 sc2superfan101 wrote:
lol I got "Staunch Conservative"
pretty accurate, I must say.
I got Libertarian...not at all surprised by this
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I hope the creators of the quiz knows that there are more ideologies than liberal, conservative, and libertarian.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/aiAQi.png)
