On October 31 2012 07:08 sam!zdat wrote: when you have a crisis of overaccumulation the last thing you need is more investment
What is the thing you need, then?
Edit: And why is investment the last thing needed when sitting on vast stockpiles?
I'll give you my point of view (probably not his):
What you need is to move funds from financial investments into actual investments. The problem with huge amounts of overall investments means you incentivize investment infrastructure (investment lawyers, hedge fund managers, stock brokers) that is serving only one purpose-the accumulation of more money. The more investment infrastructure there is, the higher the overhead, so even if the country's return on investment increases the money gets sucked into these markets.
The fact that the stock market is primarily used as a means of income (both for the people working it and for the people investing in it) rather than a way to actually invest in products is the prime sign that we've reached a problem. Unfortunately, the infrastructure won't just come tumbling down, and there's very little at the policy level you can do to expedite this without getting reaaaaly invasive and having people scream JOBS JOBS JOBS.
On October 31 2012 06:31 sam!zdat wrote: can somebody give me argument for flat tax besides something that sounds like a five year old's conception of "fairness."
I've suggested that a flat tax with a Negative Income Tax could be viable.
Sorry, I don't get it. Could you explain?
Right now we need to ramp up the progressiveness of our tax code. The middle class is painfully stagnant and has been for the last 30 years. Not to mention the massive deficit we have and the wealth disparity that's increasing. We need to ramp up the highest tax rate to like 50%+ and try to lower it on the middle class imo.
High income tax would also help job growth because it incentivizes the rich to invest more rather than take home income.
Why would a higher top tax rate create an incentive to invest more? Seems to me the opposite would be true. A higher tax rate would make fewer investments worth it and so the money would be spent on consumption instead.
50% seems pretty extreme too. We already have a very progressive tax system.
If you're investing the money it isn't income, so you have more incentive to invest and "hide" it. It's pretty basic logic, don't know how you're missing it.
((Not saying I agree, just pointing out the obvious))
We don't tax wealth anyways... so there's no incentive to "hide" anything via investment.
I didn't know we didn't tax income. Those taxes I pay must be magical fairy taxes.
We tax income, not wealth.
Edit: for the most part.
So... by investing part of that income, you effectively "hide" it from taxation. Which is what I said. So I'm not sure where you got taxing wealth from.
On October 31 2012 06:31 sam!zdat wrote: can somebody give me argument for flat tax besides something that sounds like a five year old's conception of "fairness."
I've suggested that a flat tax with a Negative Income Tax could be viable.
Sorry, I don't get it. Could you explain?
Right now we need to ramp up the progressiveness of our tax code. The middle class is painfully stagnant and has been for the last 30 years. Not to mention the massive deficit we have and the wealth disparity that's increasing. We need to ramp up the highest tax rate to like 50%+ and try to lower it on the middle class imo.
High income tax would also help job growth because it incentivizes the rich to invest more rather than take home income.
Why would a higher top tax rate create an incentive to invest more? Seems to me the opposite would be true. A higher tax rate would make fewer investments worth it and so the money would be spent on consumption instead.
50% seems pretty extreme too. We already have a very progressive tax system.
If you're investing the money it isn't income, so you have more incentive to invest and "hide" it. It's pretty basic logic, don't know how you're missing it.
((Not saying I agree, just pointing out the obvious))
We don't tax wealth anyways... so there's no incentive to "hide" anything via investment.
I didn't know we didn't tax income. Those taxes I pay must be magical fairy taxes.
We tax income, not wealth.
Edit: for the most part.
So... by investing part of that income, you effectively "hide" it from taxation. Which is what I said. So I'm not sure where you got taxing wealth from.
No, you invest after tax.
I was totally under the impression that the original argument was that we wouldn't tax investments but tax income highly. Going back to the start I don't know where I gathered this impression, my fault.
On October 31 2012 02:36 Defacer wrote: Christie going rogue this morning across all the major news shows.
That is actually somewhat to be expected. Chris Christie sees himself as a favourite in 2016 for presidential election. If Romney wins the upcoming election, he will not have that possibility. For his own political carrier, it would be far better if Obama is elected. 2020 is far too far away for him to keep the momentum up. 8 years of politilcs is a very long time and a lot of newcomers can threaten his favourability ratings in that time. Especially after he has started to move his opinions to better align with the socially conservative.
I know we're all jaded and assume that Gov. Christie has ulterior motives, but isn't the most direct answer to all of this speculation about why he said what he said (on multiple networks) is that he's being honest? He hasn't "gone rogue" and isn't throwing Romney under the bus but he's doing his fucking job. Something that frankly I wish all of our politicians spent more time doing instead of posturing, looking for ways to "get" the other side, and all using the same talking points.
By the way, love the selective edit on the Governor's comment on Romney going to New Jersey to tour the damage. The video has it as:
I have no idea, nor am I the least bit concerned or interested.
Full quote:
I have no idea, nor am I the least bit concerned or interested. I’ve got a job to do here in New Jersey that’s much bigger than presidential politics and I could care less about any of that stuff. I have a job to do. I’ve got 2.4 million people out of power. I’ve got devastation on the shore. I’ve got floods in the northern part of my state. If you think right now I give a damn about presidential politics then you don’t know me.
I like how your full quote is missing the statements prior to the sentence. Nice try.
What are you talking about? That's the full quote from the Governor. If you're referring to the reporter's question, then it's on the video why does it need to be quoted again?
You make it seem in your post like the quote is out of context. Don't try and be a weasel next time?
It isn't out of context in the slightest. Christie was clearly saying Romney is irrelevant to his problems at the moment. He continues that presidential politics are irrelevant to his problems right now.
Really? Ask yourself why the person posting that video on YouTube specifically cut the second part out. He/she is trying to make a point and feels it's helped by losing the second part of the statement. An intellectually honest posting of the Governor's interview would have included his entire statement.
Thus, it's a selective edit.
I really don't care, the Governor was spot on in his interviews this morning in both praising the President and in making sure to not play politics when he's got much more important things to do. I was just amused by the edit of the Governor's statement to try to make a point. It doesn't really matter that it fails to do so.
On October 31 2012 07:08 sam!zdat wrote: when you have a crisis of overaccumulation the last thing you need is more investment
I know you read Marx, but I am losing the plot here. What exactly is your vision of an ideal society even? Everyone just sitting around reading?
no, that's the first step. you read books so that you can have a vision of what you want society to be. We just chase wealth for wealth's sake and we have a vulgar, debased culture because of it
Explain?
Look around you. Everybody is trying to sell things, all the time. you can't have art, or anything else, without somebody slapping corporate logos on it. you can't learn anything interesting or noble or excellent without somebody asking you "what product are you going to market." Everything is advertising, you absorb it into your ideology, you think that buying all this stupid shit from these stupid corporations will make you happy, really it just breaks and you throw it away and buy something else useless and shiny and plastic next year to keep the whole cycle going. Walk down the street and ask yourself, how much of the stuff that's going on here is actually useful? How much of it is just people convincing each other that what they are doing is useful? How much of it is consumption just to show off how much you can consume?
Why do people work so much? Technology advances, and we work MORE, and HARDER! What the fuck? It's only because we've convinced ourselves that we have to have all this trash. According to American standards, I'm pretty much straddling the poverty line - but I live like a fucking Merovingian king of something. We have no perspective.
What's wrong with the situation you have come up with? Is there some sort of purpose you have in mind for the human race? As far as I can tell we don't really have any purpose besides the ones we create for ourselves.
yes, but which one do we want to create? Is it this fucking corporate theme park? I hope not, because that's damn pathetic. I'd like to make a civilization worth being proud of, and I'll tell you right now it doesn't involve any marketing consultants.
edit:
On October 31 2012 07:25 mynameisgreat11 wrote: samzdat, you've seen "They Live", right?
no what is that
Why aren't you proud of the current civilization we have? It seems you feel we should all be grateful for what we have since we're better off than we once were. But what's wrong with not being satisfied with the present and wanting more? What's wrong with the "corporate theme park" as you put it?
What? you *like* the theme park? Get what you deserve, I guess. I think it's fucking banal, and it makes me embarrassed to think of what the future will think of our "culture."
Why aren't you proud of what we've created? The only reason I have to be unhappy with the United States as it stands is our current social problems. We have a country in which I'm able to take advantage of my hard work in school and prosper. Why aren't you proud of the marketing consultants? They've mastered the art of manipulating fools. Doesn't seem so bad to me.
I am proud, actually. I just think it's time for the next step.
As far as the marketing consultants... let's not go there.
What do you mean by get what you deserve? Not really as important by why you think it's banal, though. (Why do you think it's banal)
It's not that I like the theme park, it's that I don't think it's there at all.
On October 31 2012 07:29 jdseemoreglass wrote: So that's what's wrong with Sam!zdat... he's reading Confucius instead of Lao Tzu's Tao Te Ching, which represents a rebellion against the authoritarianism implicit in Confucian philosophy with it's overemphasis on duty and hierarchy.
See, I can turn even Eastern Religion into politics.
You realize I consider myself a daoist...
Laozi and Zhuangzi are two of my major touchstone texts. Confucianism and Daoism were synthesized in the Song dynasty, along with Buddhist - they're not considered to be mutually exclusive traditions
Every day we talk I find we have more in common. I must have read Tao Te Ching about 8 times by now. One of the most interesting books I've ever read for sure, and very compatible with my philosophy, even with regard to politics.
But I read an essay which argued very well that Confucianism and Daoism represented contrasting and even contradictory philosophies, even literally described as idealizing both Yin and Yang, which is why the Tao text uses exclusively female pronouns to contrast the masculine Confucianism. Confucianism also attached a moral perspective to Yin and Yang, while Daoism is largely amoral and makes no such distinction.
That is actually somewhat to be expected. Chris Christie sees himself as a favourite in 2016 for presidential election. If Romney wins the upcoming election, he will not have that possibility. For his own political carrier, it would be far better if Obama is elected. 2020 is far too far away for him to keep the momentum up. 8 years of politilcs is a very long time and a lot of newcomers can threaten his favourability ratings in that time. Especially after he has started to move his opinions to better align with the socially conservative.
I know we're all jaded and assume that Gov. Christie has ulterior motives, but isn't the most direct answer to all of this speculation about why he said what he said (on multiple networks) is that he's being honest? He hasn't "gone rogue" and isn't throwing Romney under the bus but he's doing his fucking job. Something that frankly I wish all of our politicians spent more time doing instead of posturing, looking for ways to "get" the other side, and all using the same talking points.
By the way, love the selective edit on the Governor's comment on Romney going to New Jersey to tour the damage. The video has it as:
I have no idea, nor am I the least bit concerned or interested.
Full quote:
I have no idea, nor am I the least bit concerned or interested. I’ve got a job to do here in New Jersey that’s much bigger than presidential politics and I could care less about any of that stuff. I have a job to do. I’ve got 2.4 million people out of power. I’ve got devastation on the shore. I’ve got floods in the northern part of my state. If you think right now I give a damn about presidential politics then you don’t know me.
I like how your full quote is missing the statements prior to the sentence. Nice try.
What are you talking about? That's the full quote from the Governor. If you're referring to the reporter's question, then it's on the video why does it need to be quoted again?
You make it seem in your post like the quote is out of context. Don't try and be a weasel next time?
It isn't out of context in the slightest. Christie was clearly saying Romney is irrelevant to his problems at the moment. He continues that presidential politics are irrelevant to his problems right now.
Really? Ask yourself why the person posting that video on YouTube specifically cut the second part out. He/she is trying to make a point and feels it's helped by losing the second part of the statement. An intellectually honest posting of the Governor's interview would have included his entire statement.
Thus, it's a selective edit.
I really don't care, the Governor was spot on in his interviews this morning in both praising the President and in making sure to not play politics when he's got much more important things to do. I was just amused by the edit of the Governor's statement to try to make a point. It doesn't really matter that it fails to do so.
Probably. I assumed you were trying to imply something that didn't occur (and rereading the initial post it still seems that way), but if you weren't I'm sorry.
On October 31 2012 07:08 sam!zdat wrote: when you have a crisis of overaccumulation the last thing you need is more investment
I know you read Marx, but I am losing the plot here. What exactly is your vision of an ideal society even? Everyone just sitting around reading?
no, that's the first step. you read books so that you can have a vision of what you want society to be. We just chase wealth for wealth's sake and we have a vulgar, debased culture because of it
Explain?
Look around you. Everybody is trying to sell things, all the time. you can't have art, or anything else, without somebody slapping corporate logos on it. you can't learn anything interesting or noble or excellent without somebody asking you "what product are you going to market." Everything is advertising, you absorb it into your ideology, you think that buying all this stupid shit from these stupid corporations will make you happy, really it just breaks and you throw it away and buy something else useless and shiny and plastic next year to keep the whole cycle going. Walk down the street and ask yourself, how much of the stuff that's going on here is actually useful? How much of it is just people convincing each other that what they are doing is useful? How much of it is consumption just to show off how much you can consume?
Why do people work so much? Technology advances, and we work MORE, and HARDER! What the fuck? It's only because we've convinced ourselves that we have to have all this trash. According to American standards, I'm pretty much straddling the poverty line - but I live like a fucking Merovingian king of something. We have no perspective.
What's wrong with the situation you have come up with? Is there some sort of purpose you have in mind for the human race? As far as I can tell we don't really have any purpose besides the ones we create for ourselves.
yes, but which one do we want to create? Is it this fucking corporate theme park? I hope not, because that's damn pathetic. I'd like to make a civilization worth being proud of, and I'll tell you right now it doesn't involve any marketing consultants.
edit:
On October 31 2012 07:25 mynameisgreat11 wrote: samzdat, you've seen "They Live", right?
no what is that
Why aren't you proud of the current civilization we have? It seems you feel we should all be grateful for what we have since we're better off than we once were. But what's wrong with not being satisfied with the present and wanting more? What's wrong with the "corporate theme park" as you put it?
What? you *like* the theme park? Get what you deserve, I guess. I think it's fucking banal, and it makes me embarrassed to think of what the future will think of our "culture."
Why aren't you proud of what we've created? The only reason I have to be unhappy with the United States as it stands is our current social problems. We have a country in which I'm able to take advantage of my hard work in school and prosper. Why aren't you proud of the marketing consultants? They've mastered the art of manipulating fools. Doesn't seem so bad to me.
I am proud, actually. I just think it's time for the next step.
As far as the marketing consultants... let's not go there.
What do you mean by get what you deserve? Not really as important by why you think it's banal, though. (Why do you think it's banal)
Because everything is designed to make you want to buy things... if that's not banal I don't know what is.
It's not that I like the theme park, it's that I don't think it's there at all.
On October 31 2012 07:15 TotalBalanceSC2 wrote: [quote]
I know you read Marx, but I am losing the plot here. What exactly is your vision of an ideal society even? Everyone just sitting around reading?
no, that's the first step. you read books so that you can have a vision of what you want society to be. We just chase wealth for wealth's sake and we have a vulgar, debased culture because of it
Explain?
Look around you. Everybody is trying to sell things, all the time. you can't have art, or anything else, without somebody slapping corporate logos on it. you can't learn anything interesting or noble or excellent without somebody asking you "what product are you going to market." Everything is advertising, you absorb it into your ideology, you think that buying all this stupid shit from these stupid corporations will make you happy, really it just breaks and you throw it away and buy something else useless and shiny and plastic next year to keep the whole cycle going. Walk down the street and ask yourself, how much of the stuff that's going on here is actually useful? How much of it is just people convincing each other that what they are doing is useful? How much of it is consumption just to show off how much you can consume?
Why do people work so much? Technology advances, and we work MORE, and HARDER! What the fuck? It's only because we've convinced ourselves that we have to have all this trash. According to American standards, I'm pretty much straddling the poverty line - but I live like a fucking Merovingian king of something. We have no perspective.
What's wrong with the situation you have come up with? Is there some sort of purpose you have in mind for the human race? As far as I can tell we don't really have any purpose besides the ones we create for ourselves.
yes, but which one do we want to create? Is it this fucking corporate theme park? I hope not, because that's damn pathetic. I'd like to make a civilization worth being proud of, and I'll tell you right now it doesn't involve any marketing consultants.
edit:
On October 31 2012 07:25 mynameisgreat11 wrote: samzdat, you've seen "They Live", right?
no what is that
Why aren't you proud of the current civilization we have? It seems you feel we should all be grateful for what we have since we're better off than we once were. But what's wrong with not being satisfied with the present and wanting more? What's wrong with the "corporate theme park" as you put it?
What? you *like* the theme park? Get what you deserve, I guess. I think it's fucking banal, and it makes me embarrassed to think of what the future will think of our "culture."
Why aren't you proud of what we've created? The only reason I have to be unhappy with the United States as it stands is our current social problems. We have a country in which I'm able to take advantage of my hard work in school and prosper. Why aren't you proud of the marketing consultants? They've mastered the art of manipulating fools. Doesn't seem so bad to me.
I am proud, actually. I just think it's time for the next step.
As far as the marketing consultants... let's not go there.
What do you mean by get what you deserve? Not really as important by why you think it's banal, though. (Why do you think it's banal)
Because everything is designed to make you want to buy things... if that's not banal I don't know what is.
It's not that I like the theme park, it's that I don't think it's there at all.
That's because you've mistaken it for reality
Perhaps we have different definitions of banal in mind. Also, from my point of view here in the mountains I don't see a corporate theme park, but maybe you're right.
There's nothing inherently wrong with buying things, though. I think the anti-consumerist sentiment many people hold is misguided. I live in an extremely consumerist society, and yet I don't go waste a bunch of money on crap I don't need, I don't have a bunch of apple products or crap like that. I can live on peanuts.
And yet, if someone has a real passion which cannot be described as banal, such as painting for instance, it is necessary to "consume" and purchase brushes, paint, canvas, etc. So I would say that consumption is merely a representation of an individuals values. Some people have banal values, as you put it, but it is not the consumption itself which is to blame. We are all after all merely trying to fill the holes in our self in the best way we know how.
Yes, well put jd. But we don't educate people so they can fill the holes in better ways. Also we took away people's religion and now all they have is steven jobs.
no, that's the first step. you read books so that you can have a vision of what you want society to be. We just chase wealth for wealth's sake and we have a vulgar, debased culture because of it
Explain?
Look around you. Everybody is trying to sell things, all the time. you can't have art, or anything else, without somebody slapping corporate logos on it. you can't learn anything interesting or noble or excellent without somebody asking you "what product are you going to market." Everything is advertising, you absorb it into your ideology, you think that buying all this stupid shit from these stupid corporations will make you happy, really it just breaks and you throw it away and buy something else useless and shiny and plastic next year to keep the whole cycle going. Walk down the street and ask yourself, how much of the stuff that's going on here is actually useful? How much of it is just people convincing each other that what they are doing is useful? How much of it is consumption just to show off how much you can consume?
Why do people work so much? Technology advances, and we work MORE, and HARDER! What the fuck? It's only because we've convinced ourselves that we have to have all this trash. According to American standards, I'm pretty much straddling the poverty line - but I live like a fucking Merovingian king of something. We have no perspective.
What's wrong with the situation you have come up with? Is there some sort of purpose you have in mind for the human race? As far as I can tell we don't really have any purpose besides the ones we create for ourselves.
yes, but which one do we want to create? Is it this fucking corporate theme park? I hope not, because that's damn pathetic. I'd like to make a civilization worth being proud of, and I'll tell you right now it doesn't involve any marketing consultants.
edit:
On October 31 2012 07:25 mynameisgreat11 wrote: samzdat, you've seen "They Live", right?
no what is that
Why aren't you proud of the current civilization we have? It seems you feel we should all be grateful for what we have since we're better off than we once were. But what's wrong with not being satisfied with the present and wanting more? What's wrong with the "corporate theme park" as you put it?
What? you *like* the theme park? Get what you deserve, I guess. I think it's fucking banal, and it makes me embarrassed to think of what the future will think of our "culture."
Why aren't you proud of what we've created? The only reason I have to be unhappy with the United States as it stands is our current social problems. We have a country in which I'm able to take advantage of my hard work in school and prosper. Why aren't you proud of the marketing consultants? They've mastered the art of manipulating fools. Doesn't seem so bad to me.
I am proud, actually. I just think it's time for the next step.
As far as the marketing consultants... let's not go there.
What do you mean by get what you deserve? Not really as important by why you think it's banal, though. (Why do you think it's banal)
Because everything is designed to make you want to buy things... if that's not banal I don't know what is.
It's not that I like the theme park, it's that I don't think it's there at all.
That's because you've mistaken it for reality
Also, from my point of view here in the mountains I don't see a corporate theme park, but maybe you're right.
On October 31 2012 07:54 jdseemoreglass wrote: There's nothing inherently wrong with buying things, though. I think the anti-consumerist sentiment many people hold is misguided. I live in an extremely consumerist society, and yet I don't go waste a bunch of money on crap I don't need, I don't have a bunch of apple products or crap like that. I can live on peanuts.
And yet, if someone has a real passion which cannot be described as banal, such as painting for instance, it is necessary to "consume" and purchase brushes, paint, canvas, etc. So I would say that consumption is merely a representation of an individuals values. Some people have banal values, as you put it, but it is not the consumption itself which is to blame. We are all after all merely trying to fill the holes in our self in the best way we know how.
I mean this in earnest and am not trying to be a dick; try and rephrase the above without any self reference.
On October 31 2012 07:56 sam!zdat wrote: Yes, well put jd. But we don't educate people so they can fill the holes in better ways. Also we took away people's religion and now all they have is steven jobs.
Look around you. Everybody is trying to sell things, all the time. you can't have art, or anything else, without somebody slapping corporate logos on it. you can't learn anything interesting or noble or excellent without somebody asking you "what product are you going to market." Everything is advertising, you absorb it into your ideology, you think that buying all this stupid shit from these stupid corporations will make you happy, really it just breaks and you throw it away and buy something else useless and shiny and plastic next year to keep the whole cycle going. Walk down the street and ask yourself, how much of the stuff that's going on here is actually useful? How much of it is just people convincing each other that what they are doing is useful? How much of it is consumption just to show off how much you can consume?
Why do people work so much? Technology advances, and we work MORE, and HARDER! What the fuck? It's only because we've convinced ourselves that we have to have all this trash. According to American standards, I'm pretty much straddling the poverty line - but I live like a fucking Merovingian king of something. We have no perspective.
What's wrong with the situation you have come up with? Is there some sort of purpose you have in mind for the human race? As far as I can tell we don't really have any purpose besides the ones we create for ourselves.
yes, but which one do we want to create? Is it this fucking corporate theme park? I hope not, because that's damn pathetic. I'd like to make a civilization worth being proud of, and I'll tell you right now it doesn't involve any marketing consultants.
edit:
On October 31 2012 07:25 mynameisgreat11 wrote: samzdat, you've seen "They Live", right?
no what is that
Why aren't you proud of the current civilization we have? It seems you feel we should all be grateful for what we have since we're better off than we once were. But what's wrong with not being satisfied with the present and wanting more? What's wrong with the "corporate theme park" as you put it?
What? you *like* the theme park? Get what you deserve, I guess. I think it's fucking banal, and it makes me embarrassed to think of what the future will think of our "culture."
Why aren't you proud of what we've created? The only reason I have to be unhappy with the United States as it stands is our current social problems. We have a country in which I'm able to take advantage of my hard work in school and prosper. Why aren't you proud of the marketing consultants? They've mastered the art of manipulating fools. Doesn't seem so bad to me.
I am proud, actually. I just think it's time for the next step.
As far as the marketing consultants... let's not go there.
What do you mean by get what you deserve? Not really as important by why you think it's banal, though. (Why do you think it's banal)
Because everything is designed to make you want to buy things... if that's not banal I don't know what is.
It's not that I like the theme park, it's that I don't think it's there at all.
That's because you've mistaken it for reality
Also, from my point of view here in the mountains I don't see a corporate theme park, but maybe you're right.
Oh, just wait, they're coming for you.
Have you read much Nietzsche? That's basically the "death of God" in a nutshell. We've killed God, and yet have created nothing that can replace him, that can fill the void. I don't think this is a problem that education can solve. What would you teach people to value exactly?
On October 31 2012 07:54 jdseemoreglass wrote: There's nothing inherently wrong with buying things, though. I think the anti-consumerist sentiment many people hold is misguided. I live in an extremely consumerist society, and yet I don't go waste a bunch of money on crap I don't need, I don't have a bunch of apple products or crap like that. I can live on peanuts.
And yet, if someone has a real passion which cannot be described as banal, such as painting for instance, it is necessary to "consume" and purchase brushes, paint, canvas, etc. So I would say that consumption is merely a representation of an individuals values. Some people have banal values, as you put it, but it is not the consumption itself which is to blame. We are all after all merely trying to fill the holes in our self in the best way we know how.
I mean this in earnest and am not trying to be a dick; try and rephrase the above without any self reference.
You want me to describe my lifestyle without self reference, or exclude it entirely? I don't see the point in doing either.
On October 31 2012 07:56 sam!zdat wrote: Yes, well put jd. But we don't educate people so they can fill the holes in better ways. Also we took away people's religion and now all they have is steven jobs.
On October 31 2012 07:51 Risen wrote:
On October 31 2012 07:45 sam!zdat wrote:
On October 31 2012 07:38 Risen wrote:
On October 31 2012 07:34 sam!zdat wrote:
On October 31 2012 07:29 Risen wrote:
On October 31 2012 07:25 sam!zdat wrote:
On October 31 2012 07:24 Risen wrote:
On October 31 2012 07:22 sam!zdat wrote: [quote]
Look around you. Everybody is trying to sell things, all the time. you can't have art, or anything else, without somebody slapping corporate logos on it. you can't learn anything interesting or noble or excellent without somebody asking you "what product are you going to market." Everything is advertising, you absorb it into your ideology, you think that buying all this stupid shit from these stupid corporations will make you happy, really it just breaks and you throw it away and buy something else useless and shiny and plastic next year to keep the whole cycle going. Walk down the street and ask yourself, how much of the stuff that's going on here is actually useful? How much of it is just people convincing each other that what they are doing is useful? How much of it is consumption just to show off how much you can consume?
Why do people work so much? Technology advances, and we work MORE, and HARDER! What the fuck? It's only because we've convinced ourselves that we have to have all this trash. According to American standards, I'm pretty much straddling the poverty line - but I live like a fucking Merovingian king of something. We have no perspective.
What's wrong with the situation you have come up with? Is there some sort of purpose you have in mind for the human race? As far as I can tell we don't really have any purpose besides the ones we create for ourselves.
yes, but which one do we want to create? Is it this fucking corporate theme park? I hope not, because that's damn pathetic. I'd like to make a civilization worth being proud of, and I'll tell you right now it doesn't involve any marketing consultants.
edit:
On October 31 2012 07:25 mynameisgreat11 wrote: samzdat, you've seen "They Live", right?
no what is that
Why aren't you proud of the current civilization we have? It seems you feel we should all be grateful for what we have since we're better off than we once were. But what's wrong with not being satisfied with the present and wanting more? What's wrong with the "corporate theme park" as you put it?
What? you *like* the theme park? Get what you deserve, I guess. I think it's fucking banal, and it makes me embarrassed to think of what the future will think of our "culture."
Why aren't you proud of what we've created? The only reason I have to be unhappy with the United States as it stands is our current social problems. We have a country in which I'm able to take advantage of my hard work in school and prosper. Why aren't you proud of the marketing consultants? They've mastered the art of manipulating fools. Doesn't seem so bad to me.
I am proud, actually. I just think it's time for the next step.
As far as the marketing consultants... let's not go there.
What do you mean by get what you deserve? Not really as important by why you think it's banal, though. (Why do you think it's banal)
Because everything is designed to make you want to buy things... if that's not banal I don't know what is.
It's not that I like the theme park, it's that I don't think it's there at all.
That's because you've mistaken it for reality
Also, from my point of view here in the mountains I don't see a corporate theme park, but maybe you're right.
Oh, just wait, they're coming for you.
Have you read much Nietzsche? That's basically the "death of God" in a nutshell. We've killed God, and yet have created nothing that can replace him, that can fill the void. I don't think this is a problem that education can solve. What would you teach people to value exactly?
I despise Nietzsche but I'm familiar with his place in intellectual history.
You don't teach people what to value, you teach them how to think about the question of what to value. That is precisely the question that education can solve, and that is the question which postmodernism, in its role as the handmaiden of capital, forbids to be asked.
On October 31 2012 07:56 sam!zdat wrote: Yes, well put jd. But we don't educate people so they can fill the holes in better ways. Also we took away people's religion and now all they have is steven jobs.
Look around you. Everybody is trying to sell things, all the time. you can't have art, or anything else, without somebody slapping corporate logos on it. you can't learn anything interesting or noble or excellent without somebody asking you "what product are you going to market." Everything is advertising, you absorb it into your ideology, you think that buying all this stupid shit from these stupid corporations will make you happy, really it just breaks and you throw it away and buy something else useless and shiny and plastic next year to keep the whole cycle going. Walk down the street and ask yourself, how much of the stuff that's going on here is actually useful? How much of it is just people convincing each other that what they are doing is useful? How much of it is consumption just to show off how much you can consume?
Why do people work so much? Technology advances, and we work MORE, and HARDER! What the fuck? It's only because we've convinced ourselves that we have to have all this trash. According to American standards, I'm pretty much straddling the poverty line - but I live like a fucking Merovingian king of something. We have no perspective.
What's wrong with the situation you have come up with? Is there some sort of purpose you have in mind for the human race? As far as I can tell we don't really have any purpose besides the ones we create for ourselves.
yes, but which one do we want to create? Is it this fucking corporate theme park? I hope not, because that's damn pathetic. I'd like to make a civilization worth being proud of, and I'll tell you right now it doesn't involve any marketing consultants.
edit:
On October 31 2012 07:25 mynameisgreat11 wrote: samzdat, you've seen "They Live", right?
no what is that
Why aren't you proud of the current civilization we have? It seems you feel we should all be grateful for what we have since we're better off than we once were. But what's wrong with not being satisfied with the present and wanting more? What's wrong with the "corporate theme park" as you put it?
What? you *like* the theme park? Get what you deserve, I guess. I think it's fucking banal, and it makes me embarrassed to think of what the future will think of our "culture."
Why aren't you proud of what we've created? The only reason I have to be unhappy with the United States as it stands is our current social problems. We have a country in which I'm able to take advantage of my hard work in school and prosper. Why aren't you proud of the marketing consultants? They've mastered the art of manipulating fools. Doesn't seem so bad to me.
I am proud, actually. I just think it's time for the next step.
As far as the marketing consultants... let's not go there.
What do you mean by get what you deserve? Not really as important by why you think it's banal, though. (Why do you think it's banal)
Because everything is designed to make you want to buy things... if that's not banal I don't know what is.
It's not that I like the theme park, it's that I don't think it's there at all.
That's because you've mistaken it for reality
Also, from my point of view here in the mountains I don't see a corporate theme park, but maybe you're right.
Oh, just wait, they're coming for you.
Nobody took away anyone's religion. It died because it was shit. It was shit because it was run primarily by human beings as cynical and amoral as the rest of society. I find it odd that you look to Catholicism, the religion that invented the idea that you get tortured after death unless you give them money and that mistreating your fellow man can be negated for a fee, as the highpoint of culture and some opposite of consumerism. Back then morality was for sale, heaven could be bought with a chantry, sins were proportionate to your income and challenging the system, the way you condemn consumerism, was heresy punished by death.
Humans are as greedy now as they were then, no better, no worse. They're just slightly better educated so you can't sell them the idea of paradise anymore, now you have to patent rounded corners and sell them some sweat shop labour.
On October 31 2012 07:56 sam!zdat wrote: Yes, well put jd. But we don't educate people so they can fill the holes in better ways. Also we took away people's religion and now all they have is steven jobs.
Look around you. Everybody is trying to sell things, all the time. you can't have art, or anything else, without somebody slapping corporate logos on it. you can't learn anything interesting or noble or excellent without somebody asking you "what product are you going to market." Everything is advertising, you absorb it into your ideology, you think that buying all this stupid shit from these stupid corporations will make you happy, really it just breaks and you throw it away and buy something else useless and shiny and plastic next year to keep the whole cycle going. Walk down the street and ask yourself, how much of the stuff that's going on here is actually useful? How much of it is just people convincing each other that what they are doing is useful? How much of it is consumption just to show off how much you can consume?
Why do people work so much? Technology advances, and we work MORE, and HARDER! What the fuck? It's only because we've convinced ourselves that we have to have all this trash. According to American standards, I'm pretty much straddling the poverty line - but I live like a fucking Merovingian king of something. We have no perspective.
What's wrong with the situation you have come up with? Is there some sort of purpose you have in mind for the human race? As far as I can tell we don't really have any purpose besides the ones we create for ourselves.
yes, but which one do we want to create? Is it this fucking corporate theme park? I hope not, because that's damn pathetic. I'd like to make a civilization worth being proud of, and I'll tell you right now it doesn't involve any marketing consultants.
edit:
On October 31 2012 07:25 mynameisgreat11 wrote: samzdat, you've seen "They Live", right?
no what is that
Why aren't you proud of the current civilization we have? It seems you feel we should all be grateful for what we have since we're better off than we once were. But what's wrong with not being satisfied with the present and wanting more? What's wrong with the "corporate theme park" as you put it?
What? you *like* the theme park? Get what you deserve, I guess. I think it's fucking banal, and it makes me embarrassed to think of what the future will think of our "culture."
Why aren't you proud of what we've created? The only reason I have to be unhappy with the United States as it stands is our current social problems. We have a country in which I'm able to take advantage of my hard work in school and prosper. Why aren't you proud of the marketing consultants? They've mastered the art of manipulating fools. Doesn't seem so bad to me.
I am proud, actually. I just think it's time for the next step.
As far as the marketing consultants... let's not go there.
What do you mean by get what you deserve? Not really as important by why you think it's banal, though. (Why do you think it's banal)
Because everything is designed to make you want to buy things... if that's not banal I don't know what is.
It's not that I like the theme park, it's that I don't think it's there at all.
That's because you've mistaken it for reality
Also, from my point of view here in the mountains I don't see a corporate theme park, but maybe you're right.
Oh, just wait, they're coming for you.
Wat... ಠ_ಠ
That seems umm... a bit paranoid?
Edit: Sometimes I wish I was as cool as Kwark :/ he has an accent and everything.
On October 31 2012 07:56 sam!zdat wrote: Yes, well put jd. But we don't educate people so they can fill the holes in better ways. Also we took away people's religion and now all they have is steven jobs.
On October 31 2012 07:51 Risen wrote:
On October 31 2012 07:45 sam!zdat wrote:
On October 31 2012 07:38 Risen wrote:
On October 31 2012 07:34 sam!zdat wrote:
On October 31 2012 07:29 Risen wrote:
On October 31 2012 07:25 sam!zdat wrote:
On October 31 2012 07:24 Risen wrote:
On October 31 2012 07:22 sam!zdat wrote: [quote]
Look around you. Everybody is trying to sell things, all the time. you can't have art, or anything else, without somebody slapping corporate logos on it. you can't learn anything interesting or noble or excellent without somebody asking you "what product are you going to market." Everything is advertising, you absorb it into your ideology, you think that buying all this stupid shit from these stupid corporations will make you happy, really it just breaks and you throw it away and buy something else useless and shiny and plastic next year to keep the whole cycle going. Walk down the street and ask yourself, how much of the stuff that's going on here is actually useful? How much of it is just people convincing each other that what they are doing is useful? How much of it is consumption just to show off how much you can consume?
Why do people work so much? Technology advances, and we work MORE, and HARDER! What the fuck? It's only because we've convinced ourselves that we have to have all this trash. According to American standards, I'm pretty much straddling the poverty line - but I live like a fucking Merovingian king of something. We have no perspective.
What's wrong with the situation you have come up with? Is there some sort of purpose you have in mind for the human race? As far as I can tell we don't really have any purpose besides the ones we create for ourselves.
yes, but which one do we want to create? Is it this fucking corporate theme park? I hope not, because that's damn pathetic. I'd like to make a civilization worth being proud of, and I'll tell you right now it doesn't involve any marketing consultants.
edit:
On October 31 2012 07:25 mynameisgreat11 wrote: samzdat, you've seen "They Live", right?
no what is that
Why aren't you proud of the current civilization we have? It seems you feel we should all be grateful for what we have since we're better off than we once were. But what's wrong with not being satisfied with the present and wanting more? What's wrong with the "corporate theme park" as you put it?
What? you *like* the theme park? Get what you deserve, I guess. I think it's fucking banal, and it makes me embarrassed to think of what the future will think of our "culture."
Why aren't you proud of what we've created? The only reason I have to be unhappy with the United States as it stands is our current social problems. We have a country in which I'm able to take advantage of my hard work in school and prosper. Why aren't you proud of the marketing consultants? They've mastered the art of manipulating fools. Doesn't seem so bad to me.
I am proud, actually. I just think it's time for the next step.
As far as the marketing consultants... let's not go there.
What do you mean by get what you deserve? Not really as important by why you think it's banal, though. (Why do you think it's banal)
Because everything is designed to make you want to buy things... if that's not banal I don't know what is.
It's not that I like the theme park, it's that I don't think it's there at all.
That's because you've mistaken it for reality
Also, from my point of view here in the mountains I don't see a corporate theme park, but maybe you're right.
Oh, just wait, they're coming for you.
Have you read much Nietzsche? That's basically the "death of God" in a nutshell. We've killed God, and yet have created nothing that can replace him, that can fill the void. I don't think this is a problem that education can solve. What would you teach people to value exactly?
On October 31 2012 07:54 jdseemoreglass wrote: There's nothing inherently wrong with buying things, though. I think the anti-consumerist sentiment many people hold is misguided. I live in an extremely consumerist society, and yet I don't go waste a bunch of money on crap I don't need, I don't have a bunch of apple products or crap like that. I can live on peanuts.
And yet, if someone has a real passion which cannot be described as banal, such as painting for instance, it is necessary to "consume" and purchase brushes, paint, canvas, etc. So I would say that consumption is merely a representation of an individuals values. Some people have banal values, as you put it, but it is not the consumption itself which is to blame. We are all after all merely trying to fill the holes in our self in the best way we know how.
I mean this in earnest and am not trying to be a dick; try and rephrase the above without any self reference.
You want me to describe my lifestyle without self reference, or exclude it entirely? I don't see the point in doing either.
Nono, you can make the same point without making it about your own personal lifestyle, and I think this might help to communicate with those inclined to be suspicious anything written with an excess of "I"'s
On October 31 2012 07:56 sam!zdat wrote: Yes, well put jd. But we don't educate people so they can fill the holes in better ways. Also we took away people's religion and now all they have is steven jobs.
On October 31 2012 07:51 Risen wrote:
On October 31 2012 07:45 sam!zdat wrote:
On October 31 2012 07:38 Risen wrote:
On October 31 2012 07:34 sam!zdat wrote:
On October 31 2012 07:29 Risen wrote:
On October 31 2012 07:25 sam!zdat wrote:
On October 31 2012 07:24 Risen wrote: [quote]
What's wrong with the situation you have come up with? Is there some sort of purpose you have in mind for the human race? As far as I can tell we don't really have any purpose besides the ones we create for ourselves.
yes, but which one do we want to create? Is it this fucking corporate theme park? I hope not, because that's damn pathetic. I'd like to make a civilization worth being proud of, and I'll tell you right now it doesn't involve any marketing consultants.
edit:
On October 31 2012 07:25 mynameisgreat11 wrote: samzdat, you've seen "They Live", right?
no what is that
Why aren't you proud of the current civilization we have? It seems you feel we should all be grateful for what we have since we're better off than we once were. But what's wrong with not being satisfied with the present and wanting more? What's wrong with the "corporate theme park" as you put it?
What? you *like* the theme park? Get what you deserve, I guess. I think it's fucking banal, and it makes me embarrassed to think of what the future will think of our "culture."
Why aren't you proud of what we've created? The only reason I have to be unhappy with the United States as it stands is our current social problems. We have a country in which I'm able to take advantage of my hard work in school and prosper. Why aren't you proud of the marketing consultants? They've mastered the art of manipulating fools. Doesn't seem so bad to me.
I am proud, actually. I just think it's time for the next step.
As far as the marketing consultants... let's not go there.
What do you mean by get what you deserve? Not really as important by why you think it's banal, though. (Why do you think it's banal)
Because everything is designed to make you want to buy things... if that's not banal I don't know what is.
It's not that I like the theme park, it's that I don't think it's there at all.
That's because you've mistaken it for reality
Also, from my point of view here in the mountains I don't see a corporate theme park, but maybe you're right.
Oh, just wait, they're coming for you.
Have you read much Nietzsche? That's basically the "death of God" in a nutshell. We've killed God, and yet have created nothing that can replace him, that can fill the void. I don't think this is a problem that education can solve. What would you teach people to value exactly?
On October 31 2012 07:57 farvacola wrote:
On October 31 2012 07:54 jdseemoreglass wrote: There's nothing inherently wrong with buying things, though. I think the anti-consumerist sentiment many people hold is misguided. I live in an extremely consumerist society, and yet I don't go waste a bunch of money on crap I don't need, I don't have a bunch of apple products or crap like that. I can live on peanuts.
And yet, if someone has a real passion which cannot be described as banal, such as painting for instance, it is necessary to "consume" and purchase brushes, paint, canvas, etc. So I would say that consumption is merely a representation of an individuals values. Some people have banal values, as you put it, but it is not the consumption itself which is to blame. We are all after all merely trying to fill the holes in our self in the best way we know how.
I mean this in earnest and am not trying to be a dick; try and rephrase the above without any self reference.
You want me to describe my lifestyle without self reference, or exclude it entirely? I don't see the point in doing either.
Nono, you can make the same point without making it about your own personal lifestyle, and I think this might help to communicate with those inclined to be suspicious anything written with an excess of "I"'s
If there are people out there suspicious of a pronoun then I probably don't care much for their opinion anyway.
On October 31 2012 07:56 sam!zdat wrote: Yes, well put jd. But we don't educate people so they can fill the holes in better ways. Also we took away people's religion and now all they have is steven jobs.
On October 31 2012 07:51 Risen wrote:
On October 31 2012 07:45 sam!zdat wrote:
On October 31 2012 07:38 Risen wrote:
On October 31 2012 07:34 sam!zdat wrote:
On October 31 2012 07:29 Risen wrote:
On October 31 2012 07:25 sam!zdat wrote:
On October 31 2012 07:24 Risen wrote:
On October 31 2012 07:22 sam!zdat wrote: [quote]
Look around you. Everybody is trying to sell things, all the time. you can't have art, or anything else, without somebody slapping corporate logos on it. you can't learn anything interesting or noble or excellent without somebody asking you "what product are you going to market." Everything is advertising, you absorb it into your ideology, you think that buying all this stupid shit from these stupid corporations will make you happy, really it just breaks and you throw it away and buy something else useless and shiny and plastic next year to keep the whole cycle going. Walk down the street and ask yourself, how much of the stuff that's going on here is actually useful? How much of it is just people convincing each other that what they are doing is useful? How much of it is consumption just to show off how much you can consume?
Why do people work so much? Technology advances, and we work MORE, and HARDER! What the fuck? It's only because we've convinced ourselves that we have to have all this trash. According to American standards, I'm pretty much straddling the poverty line - but I live like a fucking Merovingian king of something. We have no perspective.
What's wrong with the situation you have come up with? Is there some sort of purpose you have in mind for the human race? As far as I can tell we don't really have any purpose besides the ones we create for ourselves.
yes, but which one do we want to create? Is it this fucking corporate theme park? I hope not, because that's damn pathetic. I'd like to make a civilization worth being proud of, and I'll tell you right now it doesn't involve any marketing consultants.
edit:
On October 31 2012 07:25 mynameisgreat11 wrote: samzdat, you've seen "They Live", right?
no what is that
Why aren't you proud of the current civilization we have? It seems you feel we should all be grateful for what we have since we're better off than we once were. But what's wrong with not being satisfied with the present and wanting more? What's wrong with the "corporate theme park" as you put it?
What? you *like* the theme park? Get what you deserve, I guess. I think it's fucking banal, and it makes me embarrassed to think of what the future will think of our "culture."
Why aren't you proud of what we've created? The only reason I have to be unhappy with the United States as it stands is our current social problems. We have a country in which I'm able to take advantage of my hard work in school and prosper. Why aren't you proud of the marketing consultants? They've mastered the art of manipulating fools. Doesn't seem so bad to me.
I am proud, actually. I just think it's time for the next step.
As far as the marketing consultants... let's not go there.
What do you mean by get what you deserve? Not really as important by why you think it's banal, though. (Why do you think it's banal)
Because everything is designed to make you want to buy things... if that's not banal I don't know what is.
It's not that I like the theme park, it's that I don't think it's there at all.
That's because you've mistaken it for reality
Also, from my point of view here in the mountains I don't see a corporate theme park, but maybe you're right.
You've lost me now. Can't interpret the meaning of this statement, or it's implications.
Sorry. you don't tell them WHAT to value, you teach them how to do philosophy. How to ask questions about what things should be valued and to think about them in a rigorous way. You teach them the history of the various things that people have thought about values, and you have them read the texts in which these various positions and arguments were set forth. If you teach them WHAT to value, that is just indoctrination. But if you teach them how to think about what to value, that is education.
@Kwark: If you get me started about religion that will derail the thread even more than I normally do. But a) your little story about religion is typical smug pomo dismissal of thousands of years of human thought and b) I fail to see how "catholicism has its moments" can be understood as a ringing endorsement of same
EPT
