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On October 31 2012 07:18 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 07:17 Risen wrote:On October 31 2012 07:15 sam!zdat wrote:On October 31 2012 07:14 Risen wrote:On October 31 2012 07:13 sam!zdat wrote:
When Confucius went to the state of Wei, he said to a disciple, "How the population has grown!"
The disciple asked, "Since they have a large population, what is there to add?"
Confucius said, "Enrich them."
The disciple asked, "Once they are rich, what else is there to add?"
Confucius said, "Educate them." That is obtuse and irrelevant. Good to know you ground your opinions in this thread with reason. um. what's your beef with confucius? I have no problem with Confucius. I have a problem with jackasses coming in this thread and trying to be indirect so they don't have to actually give their opinions. You don't want to look like an idiot, I get that. Next time just don't say anything. Jesus. What do you want, a political philosophical treatise? I'll write you one as soon as I finish this grad school application. Don't be a douche.
You come in and instead of actually answering the question you give some quote from Confucius? Yeah, I'm the douche here. Stop shitting up the thread with your inanities, please.
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On October 31 2012 07:19 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 07:18 sam!zdat wrote:On October 31 2012 07:17 Risen wrote:On October 31 2012 07:15 sam!zdat wrote:On October 31 2012 07:14 Risen wrote:On October 31 2012 07:13 sam!zdat wrote:
When Confucius went to the state of Wei, he said to a disciple, "How the population has grown!"
The disciple asked, "Since they have a large population, what is there to add?"
Confucius said, "Enrich them."
The disciple asked, "Once they are rich, what else is there to add?"
Confucius said, "Educate them." That is obtuse and irrelevant. Good to know you ground your opinions in this thread with reason. um. what's your beef with confucius? I have no problem with Confucius. I have a problem with jackasses coming in this thread and trying to be indirect so they don't have to actually give their opinions. You don't want to look like an idiot, I get that. Next time just don't say anything. Jesus. What do you want, a political philosophical treatise? I'll write you one as soon as I finish this grad school application. Don't be a douche. You come in and instead of actually answering the question you give some quote from Confucius? Yeah, I'm the douche here. Stop shitting up the thread with your inanities, please.
Even if you're right you certainly seem like a douche right now.
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On October 31 2012 07:21 armada[sb] wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 07:19 Risen wrote:On October 31 2012 07:18 sam!zdat wrote:On October 31 2012 07:17 Risen wrote:On October 31 2012 07:15 sam!zdat wrote:On October 31 2012 07:14 Risen wrote:On October 31 2012 07:13 sam!zdat wrote:
When Confucius went to the state of Wei, he said to a disciple, "How the population has grown!"
The disciple asked, "Since they have a large population, what is there to add?"
Confucius said, "Enrich them."
The disciple asked, "Once they are rich, what else is there to add?"
Confucius said, "Educate them." That is obtuse and irrelevant. Good to know you ground your opinions in this thread with reason. um. what's your beef with confucius? I have no problem with Confucius. I have a problem with jackasses coming in this thread and trying to be indirect so they don't have to actually give their opinions. You don't want to look like an idiot, I get that. Next time just don't say anything. Jesus. What do you want, a political philosophical treatise? I'll write you one as soon as I finish this grad school application. Don't be a douche. You come in and instead of actually answering the question you give some quote from Confucius? Yeah, I'm the douche here. Stop shitting up the thread with your inanities, please. Even if you're right you certainly seem like a douche right now.
Then I apologize.
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On October 31 2012 07:17 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 07:16 sam!zdat wrote:On October 31 2012 07:15 TotalBalanceSC2 wrote:On October 31 2012 07:08 sam!zdat wrote:
when you have a crisis of overaccumulation the last thing you need is more investment I know you read Marx, but I am losing the plot here. What exactly is your vision of an ideal society even? Everyone just sitting around reading? no, that's the first step. you read books so that you can have a vision of what you want society to be. We just chase wealth for wealth's sake and we have a vulgar, debased culture because of it Explain?
Look around you. Everybody is trying to sell things, all the time. you can't have art (edit: or starcraft), or anything else, without somebody slapping corporate logos on it. you can't learn anything interesting or noble or excellent without somebody asking you "what product are you going to market." Everything is advertising, you absorb it into your ideology, you think that buying all this stupid shit from these stupid corporations will make you happy, really it just breaks and you throw it away and buy something else useless and shiny and plastic next year to keep the whole cycle going. Walk down the street and ask yourself, how much of the stuff that's going on here is actually useful? How much of it is just people convincing each other that what they are doing is useful? How much of it is consumption just to show off how much you can consume?
Why do people work so much? Technology advances, and we work MORE, and HARDER! What the fuck? It's only because we've convinced ourselves that we have to have all this trash. According to American standards, I'm pretty much straddling the poverty line - but I live like a fucking Merovingian king of something. We have no perspective.
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On October 31 2012 07:22 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 07:17 Risen wrote:On October 31 2012 07:16 sam!zdat wrote:On October 31 2012 07:15 TotalBalanceSC2 wrote:On October 31 2012 07:08 sam!zdat wrote:
when you have a crisis of overaccumulation the last thing you need is more investment I know you read Marx, but I am losing the plot here. What exactly is your vision of an ideal society even? Everyone just sitting around reading? no, that's the first step. you read books so that you can have a vision of what you want society to be. We just chase wealth for wealth's sake and we have a vulgar, debased culture because of it Explain? Look around you. Everybody is trying to sell things, all the time. you can't have art, or anything else, without somebody slapping corporate logos on it. you can't learn anything interesting or noble or excellent without somebody asking you "what product are you going to market." Everything is advertising, you absorb it into your ideology, you think that buying all this stupid shit from these stupid corporations will make you happy, really it just breaks and you throw it away and buy something else useless and shiny and plastic next year to keep the whole cycle going. Walk down the street and ask yourself, how much of the stuff that's going on here is actually useful? How much of it is just people convincing each other that what they are doing is useful? How much of it is consumption just to show off how much you can consume? Why do people work so much? Technology advances, and we work MORE, and HARDER! What the fuck? It's only because we've convinced ourselves that we have to have all this trash. According to American standards, I'm pretty much straddling the poverty line - but I live like a fucking Merovingian king of something. We have no perspective.
What's wrong with the situation you have come up with? Is there some sort of purpose you have in mind for the human race? As far as I can tell we don't really have any purpose besides the ones we create for ourselves.
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On October 31 2012 07:03 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 06:55 DoubleReed wrote:On October 31 2012 06:34 BluePanther wrote:On October 31 2012 06:31 sam!zdat wrote:
can somebody give me argument for flat tax besides something that sounds like a five year old's conception of "fairness." I've suggested that a flat tax with a Negative Income Tax could be viable. Sorry, I don't get it. Could you explain? Right now we need to ramp up the progressiveness of our tax code. The middle class is painfully stagnant and has been for the last 30 years. Not to mention the massive deficit we have and the wealth disparity that's increasing. We need to ramp up the highest tax rate to like 50%+ and try to lower it on the middle class imo. High income tax would also help job growth because it incentivizes the rich to invest more rather than take home income. Why would a higher top tax rate create an incentive to invest more? Seems to me the opposite would be true. A higher tax rate would make fewer investments worth it and so the money would be spent on consumption instead. 50% seems pretty extreme too. We already have a very progressive tax system.
I'm starting to think that good investments will be made as long as the capital is there to make them. What happens when you increase investment capital when there isn't enough investment to grow the economy is that the investment flows into competitive markets, meant to take more of the pie instead of growing it.
This seems like it could go further as well. As investment falls in education and public resources, the amount of good investments that can be made falls.
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samzdat, you've seen "They Live", right?
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On October 31 2012 07:24 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 07:22 sam!zdat wrote:On October 31 2012 07:17 Risen wrote:On October 31 2012 07:16 sam!zdat wrote:On October 31 2012 07:15 TotalBalanceSC2 wrote:On October 31 2012 07:08 sam!zdat wrote:
when you have a crisis of overaccumulation the last thing you need is more investment I know you read Marx, but I am losing the plot here. What exactly is your vision of an ideal society even? Everyone just sitting around reading? no, that's the first step. you read books so that you can have a vision of what you want society to be. We just chase wealth for wealth's sake and we have a vulgar, debased culture because of it Explain? Look around you. Everybody is trying to sell things, all the time. you can't have art, or anything else, without somebody slapping corporate logos on it. you can't learn anything interesting or noble or excellent without somebody asking you "what product are you going to market." Everything is advertising, you absorb it into your ideology, you think that buying all this stupid shit from these stupid corporations will make you happy, really it just breaks and you throw it away and buy something else useless and shiny and plastic next year to keep the whole cycle going. Walk down the street and ask yourself, how much of the stuff that's going on here is actually useful? How much of it is just people convincing each other that what they are doing is useful? How much of it is consumption just to show off how much you can consume? Why do people work so much? Technology advances, and we work MORE, and HARDER! What the fuck? It's only because we've convinced ourselves that we have to have all this trash. According to American standards, I'm pretty much straddling the poverty line - but I live like a fucking Merovingian king of something. We have no perspective. What's wrong with the situation you have come up with? Is there some sort of purpose you have in mind for the human race? As far as I can tell we don't really have any purpose besides the ones we create for ourselves.
yes, but which one do we want to create? Is it this fucking corporate theme park? I hope not, because that's damn pathetic. I'd like to make a civilization worth being proud of, and I'll tell you right now it doesn't involve any marketing consultants.
edit:
On October 31 2012 07:25 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
samzdat, you've seen "They Live", right?
no what is that
edit:
See, what you guys don't realize is that I consider myself a cultural conservative. By which I mean, the whole thing has been going downhill since we stopped teaching everybody Greek and Latin and reading Plato. Catholicism has its moments but protestantism is just banal, and atheism is the worst
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On October 31 2012 07:17 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 07:15 sam!zdat wrote:On October 31 2012 07:14 Risen wrote:On October 31 2012 07:13 sam!zdat wrote:
When Confucius went to the state of Wei, he said to a disciple, "How the population has grown!"
The disciple asked, "Since they have a large population, what is there to add?"
Confucius said, "Enrich them."
The disciple asked, "Once they are rich, what else is there to add?"
Confucius said, "Educate them." That is obtuse and irrelevant. Good to know you ground your opinions in this thread with reason. um. what's your beef with confucius? I have no problem with Confucius. I have a problem with jackasses coming in this thread and trying to be indirect so they don't have to actually give their opinions. You don't want to look like an idiot, I get that. Next time just don't say anything.
Samz may digress from time to time; in this case almost certainly. Such is a likely side effect of a Marxist literary critic getting involved with mainstream US politics. That does not excuse your simian backseat moderating. Go ahead though; tell us how you really feel.
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On October 31 2012 07:06 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 07:03 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On October 31 2012 06:55 DoubleReed wrote:On October 31 2012 06:34 BluePanther wrote:On October 31 2012 06:31 sam!zdat wrote:
can somebody give me argument for flat tax besides something that sounds like a five year old's conception of "fairness." I've suggested that a flat tax with a Negative Income Tax could be viable. Sorry, I don't get it. Could you explain? Right now we need to ramp up the progressiveness of our tax code. The middle class is painfully stagnant and has been for the last 30 years. Not to mention the massive deficit we have and the wealth disparity that's increasing. We need to ramp up the highest tax rate to like 50%+ and try to lower it on the middle class imo. High income tax would also help job growth because it incentivizes the rich to invest more rather than take home income. Why would a higher top tax rate create an incentive to invest more? Seems to me the opposite would be true. A higher tax rate would make fewer investments worth it and so the money would be spent on consumption instead. 50% seems pretty extreme too. We already have a very progressive tax system. If you're investing the money it isn't income, so you have more incentive to invest and "hide" it. It's pretty basic logic, don't know how you're missing it. ((Not saying I agree, just pointing out the obvious))
We don't tax wealth anyways... so there's no incentive to "hide" anything via investment.
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On October 31 2012 07:25 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 07:24 Risen wrote:On October 31 2012 07:22 sam!zdat wrote:On October 31 2012 07:17 Risen wrote:On October 31 2012 07:16 sam!zdat wrote:On October 31 2012 07:15 TotalBalanceSC2 wrote:On October 31 2012 07:08 sam!zdat wrote:
when you have a crisis of overaccumulation the last thing you need is more investment I know you read Marx, but I am losing the plot here. What exactly is your vision of an ideal society even? Everyone just sitting around reading? no, that's the first step. you read books so that you can have a vision of what you want society to be. We just chase wealth for wealth's sake and we have a vulgar, debased culture because of it Explain? Look around you. Everybody is trying to sell things, all the time. you can't have art, or anything else, without somebody slapping corporate logos on it. you can't learn anything interesting or noble or excellent without somebody asking you "what product are you going to market." Everything is advertising, you absorb it into your ideology, you think that buying all this stupid shit from these stupid corporations will make you happy, really it just breaks and you throw it away and buy something else useless and shiny and plastic next year to keep the whole cycle going. Walk down the street and ask yourself, how much of the stuff that's going on here is actually useful? How much of it is just people convincing each other that what they are doing is useful? How much of it is consumption just to show off how much you can consume? Why do people work so much? Technology advances, and we work MORE, and HARDER! What the fuck? It's only because we've convinced ourselves that we have to have all this trash. According to American standards, I'm pretty much straddling the poverty line - but I live like a fucking Merovingian king of something. We have no perspective. What's wrong with the situation you have come up with? Is there some sort of purpose you have in mind for the human race? As far as I can tell we don't really have any purpose besides the ones we create for ourselves. yes, but which one do we want to create? Is it this fucking corporate theme park? I hope not, because that's damn pathetic. I'd like to make a civilization worth being proud of, and I'll tell you right now it doesn't involve any marketing consultants. edit: Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 07:25 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
samzdat, you've seen "They Live", right? no what is that
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096256/
Do yourself a favor and watch that shit tonight. I can guarantee you'll enjoy it.
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So that's what's wrong with Sam!zdat... he's reading Confucius instead of Lao Tzu's Tao Te Ching, which represents a rebellion against the authoritarianism implicit in Confucian philosophy with it's overemphasis on duty and hierarchy.
See, I can turn even Eastern Religion into politics. 
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On October 31 2012 07:25 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 07:24 Risen wrote:On October 31 2012 07:22 sam!zdat wrote:On October 31 2012 07:17 Risen wrote:On October 31 2012 07:16 sam!zdat wrote:On October 31 2012 07:15 TotalBalanceSC2 wrote:On October 31 2012 07:08 sam!zdat wrote:
when you have a crisis of overaccumulation the last thing you need is more investment I know you read Marx, but I am losing the plot here. What exactly is your vision of an ideal society even? Everyone just sitting around reading? no, that's the first step. you read books so that you can have a vision of what you want society to be. We just chase wealth for wealth's sake and we have a vulgar, debased culture because of it Explain? Look around you. Everybody is trying to sell things, all the time. you can't have art, or anything else, without somebody slapping corporate logos on it. you can't learn anything interesting or noble or excellent without somebody asking you "what product are you going to market." Everything is advertising, you absorb it into your ideology, you think that buying all this stupid shit from these stupid corporations will make you happy, really it just breaks and you throw it away and buy something else useless and shiny and plastic next year to keep the whole cycle going. Walk down the street and ask yourself, how much of the stuff that's going on here is actually useful? How much of it is just people convincing each other that what they are doing is useful? How much of it is consumption just to show off how much you can consume? Why do people work so much? Technology advances, and we work MORE, and HARDER! What the fuck? It's only because we've convinced ourselves that we have to have all this trash. According to American standards, I'm pretty much straddling the poverty line - but I live like a fucking Merovingian king of something. We have no perspective. What's wrong with the situation you have come up with? Is there some sort of purpose you have in mind for the human race? As far as I can tell we don't really have any purpose besides the ones we create for ourselves. yes, but which one do we want to create? Is it this fucking corporate theme park? I hope not, because that's damn pathetic. I'd like to make a civilization worth being proud of, and I'll tell you right now it doesn't involve any marketing consultants. edit: Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 07:25 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
samzdat, you've seen "They Live", right? no what is that
Why aren't you proud of the current civilization we have? It seems you feel we should all be grateful for what we have since we're better off than we once were. But what's wrong with not being satisfied with the present and wanting more? What's wrong with the "corporate theme park" as you put it? Why aren't you proud of what we've created? The only reason I have to be unhappy with the United States as it stands is our current social problems. We have a country in which I'm able to take advantage of my hard work in school and prosper. Why aren't you proud of the marketing consultants? They've mastered the art of manipulating fools. Doesn't seem so bad to me.
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On October 31 2012 07:27 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 07:06 Risen wrote:On October 31 2012 07:03 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On October 31 2012 06:55 DoubleReed wrote:On October 31 2012 06:34 BluePanther wrote:On October 31 2012 06:31 sam!zdat wrote:
can somebody give me argument for flat tax besides something that sounds like a five year old's conception of "fairness." I've suggested that a flat tax with a Negative Income Tax could be viable. Sorry, I don't get it. Could you explain? Right now we need to ramp up the progressiveness of our tax code. The middle class is painfully stagnant and has been for the last 30 years. Not to mention the massive deficit we have and the wealth disparity that's increasing. We need to ramp up the highest tax rate to like 50%+ and try to lower it on the middle class imo. High income tax would also help job growth because it incentivizes the rich to invest more rather than take home income. Why would a higher top tax rate create an incentive to invest more? Seems to me the opposite would be true. A higher tax rate would make fewer investments worth it and so the money would be spent on consumption instead. 50% seems pretty extreme too. We already have a very progressive tax system. If you're investing the money it isn't income, so you have more incentive to invest and "hide" it. It's pretty basic logic, don't know how you're missing it. ((Not saying I agree, just pointing out the obvious)) We don't tax wealth anyways... so there's no incentive to "hide" anything via investment.
I didn't know we didn't tax income. Those taxes I pay must be magical fairy taxes.
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On October 31 2012 07:29 jdseemoreglass wrote:So that's what's wrong with Sam!zdat... he's reading Confucius instead of Lao Tzu's Tao Te Ching, which represents a rebellion against the authoritarianism implicit in Confucian philosophy with it's overemphasis on duty and hierarchy. See, I can turn even Eastern Religion into politics.
You realize I consider myself a daoist...
Laozi and Zhuangzi are two of my major touchstone texts. Confucianism and Daoism were synthesized in the Song dynasty, along with Buddhist - they're not considered to be mutually exclusive traditions
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On October 31 2012 07:06 TotalBalanceSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 07:03 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On October 31 2012 06:55 DoubleReed wrote:On October 31 2012 06:34 BluePanther wrote:On October 31 2012 06:31 sam!zdat wrote:
can somebody give me argument for flat tax besides something that sounds like a five year old's conception of "fairness." I've suggested that a flat tax with a Negative Income Tax could be viable. Sorry, I don't get it. Could you explain? Right now we need to ramp up the progressiveness of our tax code. The middle class is painfully stagnant and has been for the last 30 years. Not to mention the massive deficit we have and the wealth disparity that's increasing. We need to ramp up the highest tax rate to like 50%+ and try to lower it on the middle class imo. High income tax would also help job growth because it incentivizes the rich to invest more rather than take home income. Why would a higher top tax rate create an incentive to invest more? Seems to me the opposite would be true. A higher tax rate would make fewer investments worth it and so the money would be spent on consumption instead. 50% seems pretty extreme too. We already have a very progressive tax system. Funny, this economy could use a little more consumption to get it back on track at the moment haha... And then wouldn't that increased consumption lead to more growth which then gives incentive to invest again? Not to mention I think Buffett has said numerous times that the tax rate is one of the most minor things most investors take into consideration.
Both investment and consumption are spending... so either would boost the economy in the short run.
Buffett says a lot of things  Taxes can be a major or a minor factor - it depends on the circumstances.
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On October 31 2012 07:30 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 07:27 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On October 31 2012 07:06 Risen wrote:On October 31 2012 07:03 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On October 31 2012 06:55 DoubleReed wrote:On October 31 2012 06:34 BluePanther wrote:On October 31 2012 06:31 sam!zdat wrote:
can somebody give me argument for flat tax besides something that sounds like a five year old's conception of "fairness." I've suggested that a flat tax with a Negative Income Tax could be viable. Sorry, I don't get it. Could you explain? Right now we need to ramp up the progressiveness of our tax code. The middle class is painfully stagnant and has been for the last 30 years. Not to mention the massive deficit we have and the wealth disparity that's increasing. We need to ramp up the highest tax rate to like 50%+ and try to lower it on the middle class imo. High income tax would also help job growth because it incentivizes the rich to invest more rather than take home income. Why would a higher top tax rate create an incentive to invest more? Seems to me the opposite would be true. A higher tax rate would make fewer investments worth it and so the money would be spent on consumption instead. 50% seems pretty extreme too. We already have a very progressive tax system. If you're investing the money it isn't income, so you have more incentive to invest and "hide" it. It's pretty basic logic, don't know how you're missing it. ((Not saying I agree, just pointing out the obvious)) We don't tax wealth anyways... so there's no incentive to "hide" anything via investment. I didn't know we didn't tax income. Those taxes I pay must be magical fairy taxes.
We tax income, not wealth.
Edit: for the most part.
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On October 31 2012 07:32 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 07:30 Risen wrote:On October 31 2012 07:27 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On October 31 2012 07:06 Risen wrote:On October 31 2012 07:03 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On October 31 2012 06:55 DoubleReed wrote:On October 31 2012 06:34 BluePanther wrote:On October 31 2012 06:31 sam!zdat wrote:
can somebody give me argument for flat tax besides something that sounds like a five year old's conception of "fairness." I've suggested that a flat tax with a Negative Income Tax could be viable. Sorry, I don't get it. Could you explain? Right now we need to ramp up the progressiveness of our tax code. The middle class is painfully stagnant and has been for the last 30 years. Not to mention the massive deficit we have and the wealth disparity that's increasing. We need to ramp up the highest tax rate to like 50%+ and try to lower it on the middle class imo. High income tax would also help job growth because it incentivizes the rich to invest more rather than take home income. Why would a higher top tax rate create an incentive to invest more? Seems to me the opposite would be true. A higher tax rate would make fewer investments worth it and so the money would be spent on consumption instead. 50% seems pretty extreme too. We already have a very progressive tax system. If you're investing the money it isn't income, so you have more incentive to invest and "hide" it. It's pretty basic logic, don't know how you're missing it. ((Not saying I agree, just pointing out the obvious)) We don't tax wealth anyways... so there's no incentive to "hide" anything via investment. I didn't know we didn't tax income. Those taxes I pay must be magical fairy taxes. We tax income, not wealth. Edit: for the most part.
So... by investing part of that income, you effectively "hide" it from taxation. Which is what I said. So I'm not sure where you got taxing wealth from.
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On October 31 2012 07:29 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 07:25 sam!zdat wrote:On October 31 2012 07:24 Risen wrote:On October 31 2012 07:22 sam!zdat wrote:On October 31 2012 07:17 Risen wrote:On October 31 2012 07:16 sam!zdat wrote:On October 31 2012 07:15 TotalBalanceSC2 wrote:On October 31 2012 07:08 sam!zdat wrote:
when you have a crisis of overaccumulation the last thing you need is more investment I know you read Marx, but I am losing the plot here. What exactly is your vision of an ideal society even? Everyone just sitting around reading? no, that's the first step. you read books so that you can have a vision of what you want society to be. We just chase wealth for wealth's sake and we have a vulgar, debased culture because of it Explain? Look around you. Everybody is trying to sell things, all the time. you can't have art, or anything else, without somebody slapping corporate logos on it. you can't learn anything interesting or noble or excellent without somebody asking you "what product are you going to market." Everything is advertising, you absorb it into your ideology, you think that buying all this stupid shit from these stupid corporations will make you happy, really it just breaks and you throw it away and buy something else useless and shiny and plastic next year to keep the whole cycle going. Walk down the street and ask yourself, how much of the stuff that's going on here is actually useful? How much of it is just people convincing each other that what they are doing is useful? How much of it is consumption just to show off how much you can consume? Why do people work so much? Technology advances, and we work MORE, and HARDER! What the fuck? It's only because we've convinced ourselves that we have to have all this trash. According to American standards, I'm pretty much straddling the poverty line - but I live like a fucking Merovingian king of something. We have no perspective. What's wrong with the situation you have come up with? Is there some sort of purpose you have in mind for the human race? As far as I can tell we don't really have any purpose besides the ones we create for ourselves. yes, but which one do we want to create? Is it this fucking corporate theme park? I hope not, because that's damn pathetic. I'd like to make a civilization worth being proud of, and I'll tell you right now it doesn't involve any marketing consultants. edit: On October 31 2012 07:25 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
samzdat, you've seen "They Live", right? no what is that Why aren't you proud of the current civilization we have? It seems you feel we should all be grateful for what we have since we're better off than we once were. But what's wrong with not being satisfied with the present and wanting more? What's wrong with the "corporate theme park" as you put it? Why aren't you proud of what we've created? The only reason I have to be unhappy with the United States as it stands is our current social problems. We have a country in which I'm able to take advantage of my hard work in school and prosper. Why aren't you proud of the marketing consultants? They've mastered the art of manipulating fools. Doesn't seem so bad to me.
Speaking for myself. We live in a society that places wealth and consumerism as the highest value. Most people have very few aspirations or interest outside of that value. While I don't advocate reverting to living in caves, I think we have surrounded ourselves with distractions that keep us occupied and prevent us from living as we should.
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On October 31 2012 07:29 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 07:25 sam!zdat wrote:On October 31 2012 07:24 Risen wrote:On October 31 2012 07:22 sam!zdat wrote:On October 31 2012 07:17 Risen wrote:On October 31 2012 07:16 sam!zdat wrote:On October 31 2012 07:15 TotalBalanceSC2 wrote:On October 31 2012 07:08 sam!zdat wrote:
when you have a crisis of overaccumulation the last thing you need is more investment I know you read Marx, but I am losing the plot here. What exactly is your vision of an ideal society even? Everyone just sitting around reading? no, that's the first step. you read books so that you can have a vision of what you want society to be. We just chase wealth for wealth's sake and we have a vulgar, debased culture because of it Explain? Look around you. Everybody is trying to sell things, all the time. you can't have art, or anything else, without somebody slapping corporate logos on it. you can't learn anything interesting or noble or excellent without somebody asking you "what product are you going to market." Everything is advertising, you absorb it into your ideology, you think that buying all this stupid shit from these stupid corporations will make you happy, really it just breaks and you throw it away and buy something else useless and shiny and plastic next year to keep the whole cycle going. Walk down the street and ask yourself, how much of the stuff that's going on here is actually useful? How much of it is just people convincing each other that what they are doing is useful? How much of it is consumption just to show off how much you can consume? Why do people work so much? Technology advances, and we work MORE, and HARDER! What the fuck? It's only because we've convinced ourselves that we have to have all this trash. According to American standards, I'm pretty much straddling the poverty line - but I live like a fucking Merovingian king of something. We have no perspective. What's wrong with the situation you have come up with? Is there some sort of purpose you have in mind for the human race? As far as I can tell we don't really have any purpose besides the ones we create for ourselves. yes, but which one do we want to create? Is it this fucking corporate theme park? I hope not, because that's damn pathetic. I'd like to make a civilization worth being proud of, and I'll tell you right now it doesn't involve any marketing consultants. edit: On October 31 2012 07:25 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
samzdat, you've seen "They Live", right? no what is that Why aren't you proud of the current civilization we have? It seems you feel we should all be grateful for what we have since we're better off than we once were. But what's wrong with not being satisfied with the present and wanting more? What's wrong with the "corporate theme park" as you put it?
What? you *like* the theme park? Get what you deserve, I guess. I think it's fucking banal, and it makes me embarrassed to think of what the future will think of our "culture."
Why aren't you proud of what we've created? The only reason I have to be unhappy with the United States as it stands is our current social problems. We have a country in which I'm able to take advantage of my hard work in school and prosper. Why aren't you proud of the marketing consultants? They've mastered the art of manipulating fools. Doesn't seem so bad to me.
I am proud, actually. I just think it's time for the next step.
As far as the marketing consultants... let's not go there.
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