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On April 18 2012 09:51 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 09:48 Whitewing wrote:On April 18 2012 09:45 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 18 2012 09:42 Classysaurus wrote:On April 18 2012 09:35 dAPhREAk wrote:
no, it only rewards financially irresponsible people. I'm hurt to see this level of ignorance. want to explain how that is ignorant? i only took out student loans that i knew i could pay back. this bill doesn't help me or other people who are able to pay back their debt. it helps people who can't pay back their debt. that is, in my mind, financially irresponsible. Your assumptions are bad. First, you assume that bad luck cannot occur and that things are static. Secondly, you're ignoring the existence of unemployment. Thirdly, when those students default everyone suffers from it. i recognize that people (especially in this economy) will lose their job, may go on disability, etc. however, we have welfare, we have disability insurance, etc. to cover those kinds of things. this adds another level of government dole that we can neither afford, nor should we increase taxes to provide.
When it comes down to it, we still have McDonalds too
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On April 18 2012 09:52 Noro wrote:
Student loans are amazing. I wouldn't be in school without them. And I'm happy to pay them back when i'm done. How about stop asking for hand outs and do some work in your life.
You live in Canada.
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As someone $130,000 in debt with a degree I can't do anything with, I'm all about getting some sort of assistance.
You can think whatever you want about the state of the world, but things have changed drastically in even the past 10 years. It used to be "Hey, go to college, get a job! Hurray!" now it's "Hey, go to college! You might get a job, but shit, if you don't go to college you almost certainly wont! Oh, you just want to be a secretary? Fuck you, go to college anyway or we wont look at you!"
We're forcing people like me who should have never gone to college (I'm not very smart) into these situations that they have no business being in. I understand a lot of you are intelligent people so you should be able to see a society where you're required to pay large amounts of money for the chance of getting a job that may or may not be able to pay that loan back is simply not good.
I'm paying off my shit, extremely slowly and I'll be paying for 50 years, but I'm paying it, and if nothing changes nothing changes. I'll survive, sucky as it is. However, I don't want this shit to happen to the kids I can't afford to have, and feel that something should be changed somehow.
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On April 18 2012 09:52 Noro wrote:
Student loans are amazing. I wouldn't be in school without them. And I'm happy to pay them back when i'm done. How about stop asking for hand outs and do some work in your life.
I don't think most of us are asking for hand outs. If I were to ask for anything, it'd be more options to refinance.
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On April 18 2012 09:45 Haiq343 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 09:32 Kimaker wrote:
Eh. Colleges are filled with people who shouldn't be there. That's their problem. I hope they don't forgive the loans, so the next generation won't get flooded with degrees who's value just keeps going lower and lower because everyone and their cat has a bachelors.
For everyone saying "we need education to be every more accessible" it's called the internet, books and personal ambition. You can learn SO much now even if you don't go to college as long as you're willing to take the time. You never stop learning if it's what you love.
Going to college doesn't make you smarter, it just means you can jump through hoops. You're missing the key point. Having massive debt crushes the strength of the economy for all but the very very top (and sometimes there too), it's basically a huge part of why the US is falling apart at the seams. People are generally aware these days that the national debt is much too large, and that this is to their individual detriment. What's less obvious is that programs like Federal loansharking that prey on large swathes of society may not directly victimize you personally, but you do suffer indirectly all the time (for example how nearly every state's government is also bankrupt). Higher education has lots of problems, including admitting unprepared students (often the graduates of spectacularly underfunded public schools), but piling massive debts onto students is not an effective limiter. Not only does it not work, but it actually punishes everyone, except the tiny few who get to swim Scrooge McDuck style as a result.
Great. Don't care. They shouldn't go to school in the first place. And what's more, that line of thinking is FAR too broad and completely disregards personal responsibility.
Forgiving the debt hurts everyone equal to NOT forgiving debt anyway. Banks are run by people too. Banks are part of the economy too. Where do you think the US government would get the money to forgive those debts? And if they just wash them clean and tell the banks to fuck off (never gonna happen) then we still take a hit as a society as a whole. Those same rich Scrooge McDuck guys you were talking about? They wouldn't feel it at all either way. Talking about them doesn't do anything.
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How much is the interest rate on government student loans in USA and what sort of conditions do you need to fulfill before you can qualify?
In Ontario, the government only provides loans to students with a family income of 160k or less and the higher your income, the less loans you get. They assume your family will be willing to pay for your education (fucking stupid assumption imo). The rate is completely reasonable though as it's prime + 1.25 (last time I checked) and you don't pay back (don't need to pay interest during study) until 6 months after graduation.
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On April 18 2012 09:52 kammeyer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 09:52 Noro wrote:
Student loans are amazing. I wouldn't be in school without them. And I'm happy to pay them back when i'm done. How about stop asking for hand outs and do some work in your life. You live in Canada.
As a dual citizen about to transfer to school in the states. I stand by what I said. Since when did our generation get so freaking lazy? Yeah I'll be quite a bit in debt at the end of school. But they're giving me the ability to make money for the rest of my life. How can someone complain about paying for that?
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On April 18 2012 09:53 Noobity wrote:
As someone $130,000 in debt with a degree I can't do anything with, I'm all about getting some sort of assistance.
You can think whatever you want about the state of the world, but things have changed drastically in even the past 10 years. It used to be "Hey, go to college, get a job! Hurray!" now it's "Hey, go to college! You might get a job, but shit, if you don't go to college you almost certainly wont! Oh, you just want to be a secretary? Fuck you, go to college anyway or we wont look at you!"
We're forcing people like me who should have never gone to college (I'm not very smart) into these situations that they have no business being in. I understand a lot of you are intelligent people so you should be able to see a society where you're required to pay large amounts of money for the chance of getting a job that may or may not be able to pay that loan back is simply not good.
I'm paying off my shit, extremely slowly and I'll be paying for 50 years, but I'm paying it, and if nothing changes nothing changes. I'll survive, sucky as it is. However, I don't want this shit to happen to the kids I can't afford to have, and feel that something should be changed somehow.
The fact that you realize all that speaks volumes about how smart you actually are. Most people don't seem to get the fact that college is NOT good for some people.
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On April 18 2012 09:55 The_LiNk wrote:
How much is the interest rate on government student loans in USA and what sort of conditions do you need to fulfill before you can qualify?
In Ontario, the government only provides loans to students with a family income of 160k or less and the higher your income, the less loans you get. They assume your family will be willing to pay for your education (fucking stupid assumption imo). The rate is completely reasonable though as it's prime + 1.25 (last time I checked) and you don't pay back (don't need to pay interest during study) until 6 months after graduation.
You basically just described the US system.
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On April 18 2012 09:55 The_LiNk wrote:
How much is the interest rate on government student loans in USA and what sort of conditions do you need to fulfill before you can qualify?
In Ontario, the government only provides loans to students with a family income of 160k or less and the higher your income, the less loans you get. They assume your family will be willing to pay for your education (fucking stupid assumption imo). The rate is completely reasonable though as it's prime + 1.25 (last time I checked) and you don't pay back (don't need to pay interest during study) until 6 months after graduation.
Additionally, the loan payment comes off your income so you can lower your income tax. Pretty nifty stuff
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On April 18 2012 09:55 Noro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 09:52 kammeyer wrote:On April 18 2012 09:52 Noro wrote:
Student loans are amazing. I wouldn't be in school without them. And I'm happy to pay them back when i'm done. How about stop asking for hand outs and do some work in your life. You live in Canada. As a dual citizen about to transfer to school in the states. I stand by what I said. Since when did our generation get so freaking lazy? Yeah I'll be quite a bit in debt at the end of school. But they're giving me the ability to make money for the rest of my life. How can someone complain about paying for that?
Uh, because from what I understand of how Canada's student debt works, it's pretty much identical to what that bill stated except forgiveness.
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On April 18 2012 09:51 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 09:40 Kazeyonoma wrote:On April 18 2012 09:38 Count9 wrote:
To be fair, most students here (decent uni) are complete idiots and spend most days partying and doing other stupid things instead of studying and have no shot of getting a job. They are not getting crushed under student debts, they're getting crushed under their own studpidity. Again, part of the problem of the education system. Everyone thinks you HAVE to have a degree to get a job, when right now it does nothing, except bloat the system, and end up devaluing the degree itself. If everyone has a degree, everyone might as well not have it as well. So instead you get people who just party it up, because they shouldn't be there anyways, bloat the wallets of the universities themselves to pad the salaries of presidents/chancellors, and sports teams, etc, while simultaneously putting the entire american demographic of young adults into monstrous debt that they have NO WAY of paying themselves out of because there simply aren't enough jobs out there for these people who were sold a LIE from the day they got into high school. Nationally we're basically at full employment for people with a Bachelor's and up (unemployment = 4.4%). Unemployment is really only a problem with people that haven't finished college. So, no you weren't sold a lie. http://bls.gov/news.release/pdf/empsit.pdf
Nearly all unemployment statistics are heavily flawed, the U.S. labor dept's particularly so given how they collect their data. Which isn't to say that no one gets a job, but given that you need to collect unemployment (of some kind or another) from the gov to be considered unemployed has a pretty glaring loophole. And we could easily talk about underemployment as well, just because 'you' have a part-time minimum wage job with no benefits doesn't mean we should consider 'your' employment problems resolved.
This is all fairly tangential to the bill, which hasn't really been discussed at all. I know I honestly have no idea what it contains and if it really addresses the issues it claims to correct. I am however baffled at the number of people who are arguing there's no problem at all.
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Instead of loan forgiveness, the cost of higher education should be reduced.
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The solution to the debt problem is to transfer the debt to the government! Fix the distortion by more distortion!
So next time, the crash can be even worse!
Ideally, the best thing to do would be to let things work themselves out, too bad so sad that you bought the BS colleges feed you to get you to come so they can maintain their bloated staffs and compensation for those staffs, but that would entail a lot of suffering before the poison injected into the system could be flushed out. So instead we'll muddle our way to some half-assed solution that will paper the problem over for a few years or decades until it helps contribute to yet another shitty situation that will again be papered over. Until one day there isn't enough paper left, but we'll probably all be dead by then.
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Education should be at minimal cost as it provides a service to society by expanding our knowledge. From an outsiders point of view, you tertiary education system is corrupt. Here in Australia we get HECS, which basically means the government pays for our tertiary education, then once we have the means to pay it back (ie. a full-time job), we pay it back with basically 0 interest (they do charge interest, but it's in-line with inflation so basically 0). Our courses only cost around $20,000 for the entire duration. I can't see any reason why it should be any other way.
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How about you don't take loans if you can't pay them off? Ppl use student loans for tons of shit besides school... I tooksome extra out to party ... why the fuck should it be forgiven
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Horrible idea. People shouldn't be taking out loans if they aren't going to be able to pay them back. People take out tons of loans to go and get a shitty degree that they will have a hard time being able to get a job with and then expect others to pay it off for them...
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On April 18 2012 10:04 FabledIntegral wrote:
How about you don't take loans if you can't pay them off? Ppl use student loans for tons of shit besides school... I tooksome extra out to party ... why the fuck should it be forgiven
i know so many people who did this...
"Dude my plan worked out perfectly! I got my student loan just in time for Bonnarroo like I planned! We are gonna get soooo fucked up bro! I'm not worried about paying for school or paying the loan back, I got a job and I'll have a better one when I gotta pay the school and pay the loan back it'll be fine..."
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On April 18 2012 10:00 Haiq343 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 09:51 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On April 18 2012 09:40 Kazeyonoma wrote:On April 18 2012 09:38 Count9 wrote:
To be fair, most students here (decent uni) are complete idiots and spend most days partying and doing other stupid things instead of studying and have no shot of getting a job. They are not getting crushed under student debts, they're getting crushed under their own studpidity. Again, part of the problem of the education system. Everyone thinks you HAVE to have a degree to get a job, when right now it does nothing, except bloat the system, and end up devaluing the degree itself. If everyone has a degree, everyone might as well not have it as well. So instead you get people who just party it up, because they shouldn't be there anyways, bloat the wallets of the universities themselves to pad the salaries of presidents/chancellors, and sports teams, etc, while simultaneously putting the entire american demographic of young adults into monstrous debt that they have NO WAY of paying themselves out of because there simply aren't enough jobs out there for these people who were sold a LIE from the day they got into high school. Nationally we're basically at full employment for people with a Bachelor's and up (unemployment = 4.4%). Unemployment is really only a problem with people that haven't finished college. So, no you weren't sold a lie. http://bls.gov/news.release/pdf/empsit.pdf Nearly all unemployment statistics are heavily flawed, the U.S. labor dept's particularly so given how they collect their data. Which isn't to say that no one gets a job, but given that you need to collect unemployment (of some kind or another) from the gov to be considered unemployed has a pretty glaring loophole. And we could easily talk about underemployment as well, just because 'you' have a part-time minimum wage job with no benefits doesn't mean we should consider 'your' employment problems resolved. This is all fairly tangential to the bill, which hasn't really been discussed at all. I know I honestly have no idea what it contains and if it really addresses the issues it claims to correct. I am however baffled at the number of people who are arguing there's no problem at all.
No, you do not need to be on unemployment to be considered unemployed. Their methodology is extremely sound.
But yeah, it's a side note. There's certainly a problem with student debt but it should only be forgiven in extreme cases. IMO there should be stricter limits on how much student debt a person can take on. If that means you can't go to the college you want then life's tough, go to a cheaper one.
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On April 18 2012 10:03 g. wrote:
Education should be at minimal cost as it provides a service to society by expanding our knowledge. From an outsiders point of view, you tertiary education system is corrupt. Here in Australia we get HECS, which basically means the government pays for our tertiary education, then once we have the means to pay it back (ie. a full-time job), we pay it back with basically 0 interest (they do charge interest, but it's in-line with inflation so basically 0). Our courses only cost around $20,000 for the entire duration. I can't see any reason why it should be any other way.
That is indeed a good system. There's more to it than that though. Australia has a tiny population of 20 something million. Also, your defense costs are mostly underwritten by the US. The list goes on and on. Things that work well for small countries in Europe or places like AUS/NZ won't necessarily work for a country like the US. I'm not exactly saying that the US is spending its money efficiently (which it obviously isn't), but the US cannot afford the luxuries of small and relatively worry-free countries.
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EPT
