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On April 17 2012 09:19 Bourneq wrote:
Vey good read. Made me watch 2 documentaries. Im obssesed by this now thanks...
It's funny, Wikipedia actually has one of the most complete, minute to minute write ups on Columbine on the entire internet. Should definitely check it out. There's so many myths I didn't even scratch the surface of in this post.
Did you know the Jefferson Country PD had a search warrant for Eric's house a year before the massacre?
Did you know Brooks Brown's Mom (a boy who Eric made several death threats against) called the cops on Eric Harris 16 times leading up to the massacre? She was one of the only parents that saw through Eric's psychopathic charm. She was the reason the warrant was filed, but it was never carried out.
Did you know the police knew Eric was building pipe bombs?
Did you know the most written word in Dylan's journal was love?
Did you know Cassie Bernall was never asked if she believed in God?
All of this stuff is covered on the Wiki and in the book. I'd recommend both.
Also, you know I wrote the author an e-mail and he responded? I'll post it up if people want to read. He's a really cool guy, and he gave me some more info about the victims in the e-mail.
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On April 17 2012 09:30 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 08:57 kellenr wrote:On April 17 2012 08:45 Endymion wrote:
it's stupid how you give him and his aspirations so much credit.. imo his diaries are just that: angsty teen ramblings that just happened to manifest in this attrocity.. you think his aspirations were similar to that of hitler's? hitler didn't want to kill everyone, he wanted to 'cleanse the aryan race.' he wasn't smart either, have you read the papers that he handed in? his hate blinded his reason, and clouded his judgement as a result; the kid was an immature spoiled brat who fancied himself a mass murder.
in particular i wanna talk about the point how he "wanted to fuck girls while he was doing it then rip someones throat out.'' He didn't do either of these... neither did his partner. They both had the weapons and capabilities to do it, but they didn't, because their writings were pure angst. If you ask me what was going through their head in the last few minutes while they walked around was "wow.. this was a really fucking stupid idea, i probably should have just punched a pillow" More than anything, I wanted everyone to finally see Eric Harris for what he was. He's kind of developed this mythic, sympathetic persona. I wanted to shatter that. He was a deplorable person of the highest order, literally not even human, in my opinion. i have to say that i hated that myth too, but after reading this, i find it to be hilarious. hilarious in a really, really sad way. this a-hole and his buddy, who are not unique in any way, shape or form, wanted to be known and feared. what are they? they are pitied. people think of them like two little kids who were so bullied that they just couldn't take it anymore. if eric could have looked into the future and seen that, and to a certain extent i think he did, he would have been so effing pissed. half the reason he went through with it, in my opinion, is because he knew that no matter what his ass did, he would be remembered as some victim, in his mind a victim is a "pussy". he didn't want to be a victim, he wanted to be known as a brutal killer who loved every second of his rampage. it was all a part of his big lie. thats why he wrote the journal, and thats why he tried to make the journal as over-the-top as possible. he wanted us to be afraid of his insanity, when really, he wasn't any more insane than any POS that does a myriad of crazy stupid crap and gets people killed. in fact, i've heard of people who haven't killed anyone that are more evil than him, by a long shot. people who don't waste their time writing journals or justifying themselves, who just do evil for the pure sake of doing evil and could care less how you or i feel about it. columbine was a fucking horrible tragedy, but i take solace in the fact that those two idiots didn't get anything that they wanted, at all. may everyone involved rest in peace, and hopefully the families of the slain can find some peace too. edit: also, i don't buy the whole "psychopaths don't feel emotions or empathy" idea. psychopaths are extremely deceptive, even to themselves. they don't like emotions, and they probably wish they didn't feel empathy, but i don't think they actually don't. i think they are faking it. sure they probably have some neurological issues, but i highly doubt that they don't understand very well what they are doing. i think most of the reason they do it is because they think they can get rid of unwanted emotions by doing so. kill a human to kill their own humanity, basically.
Dude! This post is so spot on!
Eric's journal just REEKS of trying to scare people. That ties into the whole "audience" theme to me. I think it speaks to his immaturity. You can tell as he wrote it, he knew eventually someone would read it, and for that reason he went to great lengths to make it sadistic.
Oh God, Eric would be SO ANGRY if he knew about everyone thinking he was the victim. You're so right there. That would literally make him unbelievably pissed. I'm glad they didn't get what they wanted too... though I didn't even realize that until just now.
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I really love this stuff, thanks for the read, will probably spend the rest of the night reading wikipedia and whatnot on the topic. I appreciate how you demonstrated the similarities between us 'normal' folk and these two.. and how, contrary to how most probably think, he was so set in his goals that therapy or anything of the sort wouldn't have deterred him. And you're right, we are very lucky he fucked up so bad that day
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On April 17 2012 09:33 kellenr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 09:19 Bourneq wrote:
Vey good read. Made me watch 2 documentaries. Im obssesed by this now thanks... It's funny, Wikipedia actually has one of the most complete, minute to minute write ups on Columbine on the entire internet. Should definitely check it out. There's so many myths I didn't even scratch the surface of in this post. Did you know the Jefferson Country PD had a search warrant for Eric's house a year before the massacre? Did you know Brooks Brown's Mom (a boy who Eric made several death threats against) called the cops on Eric Harris 16 times leading up to the massacre? She was one of the only parents that saw through Eric's psychopathic charm. She was the reason the warrant was filed, but it was never carried out. Did you know the police knew Eric was building pipe bombs? Did you know the most written word in Dylan's journal was love? Did you know Cassie Bernall was never asked if she believed in God? All of this stuff is covered on the Wiki and in the book. I'd recommend both. Also, you know I wrote the author an e-mail and he responded? I'll post it up if people want to read. He's a really cool guy, and he gave me some more info about the victims in the e-mail.
Knew a few of thoose due to the documentaires. Id love the email! Post it here or pm it to me and id be very gratefull. Also I will be so obssesed with seeing the basement tapes. Damn FBI thinking they can whithold information. Altho I can see why they would keep it out of the public. But common, if Time magazine could watch it I sure as hell can.
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I believe Eric was exactly what he claimed to be... his favorite movie… a Natural Born Killer.
Have to disagree with your analysis here. Eric's the exact opposite of a "natural born killer".
When I think of a natural born killer, I think of Richard Kuklinski, better known as the iceman. A hitmen and serial killer whos killer count is of literally legendary proportions. High estimates put it at over 250, the low ones at over 100.
That guy, well, he was a real killer. Someone looked at him the wrong way, they'd end up in a landfill somewhere. The guy kept this up for forty fucking years, with a family on top of it. That's a real pro. And you know what? He strikes me as a true as blue sociopath.
Watch some of his interview tapes. You know what he feels when he murders? Nothing. Not pride or pleasure, simply the satisfaction of a job well done, the same thing I'd feel after working out or finishing a particularily impressive piece of code. Its business. He killed a guy by taping him to a cave and having rats gnaw him to death at the request of a mafia boss. You know what he got from it? Nothing. But some cold, hard cash.
It basically contrasts in every way from what Eric and his pal did. From his skill at it, to the pleasure he took, to his instincts of self preservation. Something Kuklinski had hardwired, and Eric lacked altoghether.
Eric strikes me as rageful narcissist. A completely different breed of guy, and far less...impressive imo  . Kinda pathetic. The difference? A man who had power and thought nothing of the consequences of its excercise, versus a dumb kid who desperately craved to taste power regardless of the cost.
Basically, this guys got it more or less.
+ Show Spoiler +
i have to say that i hated that myth too, but after reading this, i find it to be hilarious. hilarious in a really, really sad way.
this a-hole and his buddy, who are not unique in any way, shape or form, wanted to be known and feared.
what are they? they are pitied. people think of them like two little kids who were so bullied that they just couldn't take it anymore. if eric could have looked into the future and seen that, and to a certain extent i think he did, he would have been so effing pissed. half the reason he went through with it, in my opinion, is because he knew that no matter what his ass did, he would be remembered as some victim, in his mind a victim is a "pussy". he didn't want to be a victim, he wanted to be known as a brutal killer who loved every second of his rampage. it was all a part of his big lie.
thats why he wrote the journal, and thats why he tried to make the journal as over-the-top as possible. he wanted us to be afraid of his insanity, when really, he wasn't any more insane than any POS that does a myriad of crazy stupid crap and gets people killed. in fact, i've heard of people who haven't killed anyone that are more evil than him, by a long shot. people who don't waste their time writing journals or justifying themselves, who just do evil for the pure sake of doing evil and could care less how you or i feel about it.
columbine was a fucking horrible tragedy, but i take solace in the fact that those two idiots didn't get anything that they wanted, at all. may everyone involved rest in peace, and hopefully the families of the slain can find some peace too.
edit: also, i don't buy the whole "psychopaths don't feel emotions or empathy" idea. psychopaths are extremely deceptive, even to themselves. they don't like emotions, and they probably wish they didn't feel empathy, but i don't think they actually don't. i think they are faking it. sure they probably have some neurological issues, but i highly doubt that they don't understand very well what they are doing. i think most of the reason they do it is because they think they can get rid of unwanted emotions by doing so. kill a human to kill their own humanity, basically.
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konadora i didn't get you fired, take this thread down and apologize. this isn't an issue that should be trolled.
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i think it's kind of self-explanatory why you don't have a job any more
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On April 17 2012 09:51 Bourneq wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 09:33 kellenr wrote:On April 17 2012 09:19 Bourneq wrote:
Vey good read. Made me watch 2 documentaries. Im obssesed by this now thanks... It's funny, Wikipedia actually has one of the most complete, minute to minute write ups on Columbine on the entire internet. Should definitely check it out. There's so many myths I didn't even scratch the surface of in this post. Did you know the Jefferson Country PD had a search warrant for Eric's house a year before the massacre? Did you know Brooks Brown's Mom (a boy who Eric made several death threats against) called the cops on Eric Harris 16 times leading up to the massacre? She was one of the only parents that saw through Eric's psychopathic charm. She was the reason the warrant was filed, but it was never carried out. Did you know the police knew Eric was building pipe bombs? Did you know the most written word in Dylan's journal was love? Did you know Cassie Bernall was never asked if she believed in God? All of this stuff is covered on the Wiki and in the book. I'd recommend both. Also, you know I wrote the author an e-mail and he responded? I'll post it up if people want to read. He's a really cool guy, and he gave me some more info about the victims in the e-mail. Knew a few of thoose due to the documentaires. Id love the email! Post it here or pm it to me and id be very gratefull. Also I will be so obssesed with seeing the basement tapes. Damn FBI thinking they can whithold information. Altho I can see why they would keep it out of the public. But common, if Time magazine could watch it I sure as hell can.
Dear Mr. Cullen,
I apologize that this is so long.
I just wanted to thank you for creating such an amazing, touching, thoroughly researched work. It is one of the best books I have ever read, and I can honestly say I have never felt the yearning to write an author after finishing his work. If it were not for you, it is very likely that the true context of this tragedy would have been forever lost—at least on the public. To call 'Columbine' simply revelatory would be a disservice, for it is an absolute triumph. With each page, I found myself ever more baffled by just how little I actually knew about what took place that day.
From the failed bombing (which, like nearly every other nuance that sets your story apart, was severely under-reported in the national media) to the true story of Cassie Burnall and resultant strife placed upon Val, to the harrowing tale of Dave Sanders, to the cover-ups and the cover-ups of the cover ups! I just couldn't put it down. And this was all a few months ago, when I first bought it.
I have since read it a second time, in one sitting, and done further research. The more I learn about it, the more I want to learn about it! It is an endless cycle. I feel so consumed by it and the deeper I dig, the more I shutter when trying to imagine the true scope of the horror. It is like my heart cannot take it; I cannot weep enough for these people. I just keep thinking, 'If it is like this for me, what was it like for them?'
Are they okay? I know that's a stupid question, but I have to believe some of them are. That they aren't still carrying the heavy burden of this tragedy around their neck with them everywhere they go. I wanted to know about Lance, how successful was his recovery, if you can say? God, I just want to give them a hug, to make it okay for them. How could someone do such a thing? I know that sounds terribly cliché, but I just feel a weight on my shoulders to help these people. I'm sure that's how everyone feels, but I just needed some sort of outlet to express it, and I figured writing you would be a start.
I especially agreed with your diagnosis of Eric, and totally enjoyed your ability to assess the two boys as separate individuals, with different outlooks and motives, instead of one single entity, as most would be tempted to portray them.
Your youtube tutorials are also entertaining as well as very helpful. I have also written a fiction book that culminates with a school shooting. However, I am very concerned that no one will want anything to do with it, for no better reason than the taboo subject. Do you have any idea if the industry is open to assessing a school shooting from a fictional stand point? Do you personally know of any books that do this?
In closing, you and your work are a great inspiration to me, and you have even set in motion inside of me a desire to compose a work of non-fiction some day. Maybe even in my later years, even pursue a career in Criminal Psychology or Trauma Counseling. I am only 21.
Anyway, I know you probably don't have time to respond to this, or any of my questions specifically, and I obviously won't hold it against you. Writing is a time a work of endless deadlines. Regardless, you are one of my favorite new authors of recent years; I wish you only the best in life and work, and eagerly await your next project.
Sincerely,
Kellen Rust
I think it's funny because you can totally see in this e-mail how my focus shifted from the murderers to the victims. I bought Columbine thinking I was interested in Eric Harris and Dylan Kleebold. I finished it being interested in all the children that were left behind. And I never looked at true crime the same again. To me, now, it's only about the victims.
And, his response, albeit short:
Thanks very much for that Kellen.
As for how they are doing, that's highly individual. I would say the majority of the students got past it about 5-8 years out, but some are still struggling. The parents of the kids killed are, as a rule, doing worse. I'm sorry but I did not cover all the victims or get to know them, and I can't tell you a lot about Lance. I think if you google him, a lot of other journos have, and have written about him.
There have been fictionalized accounts from Wally Lamb and Jodi (Picoult?) which did very well, and several others. I have no idea how receptive editors are to more books like that. An agent or editor would be a better source to ask. I live in Denver and don't talk to industry people all the time, and have never asked about that.
Good luck with it.
d
The response really meant a lot to me. Thought it was pretty cool of him. Granted, I was sucking that d pretty hard. But I just freaking loved that book. I'd write the same e-mail to Capote about In Cold Blood in a heart beat.
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On April 17 2012 09:57 Half wrote:Show nested quote +I believe Eric was exactly what he claimed to be... his favorite movie… a Natural Born Killer. Have to disagree with your analysis here. Eric's the exact opposite of a "natural born killer". When I think of a natural born killer, I think of Richard Kuklinski, better known as the iceman. A hitmen and serial killer whos killer count is of literally legendary proportions. High estimates put it at over 250, the low ones at over 100. That guy, well, he was a real killer. Someone looked at him the wrong way, they'd end up in a landfill somewhere. The guy kept this up for forty fucking years, with a family on top of it. That's a real pro. And you know what? He strikes me as a true as blue sociopath. Watch some of his interview tapes. You know what he feels when he murders? Nothing. Not pride or pleasure, simply the satisfaction of a job well done, the same thing I'd feel after working out or finishing a particularily impressive piece of code. Its business. He killed a guy by taping him to a cave and having rats gnaw him to death at the request of a mafia boss. You know what he got from it? Nothing. But some cold, hard cash. It basically contrasts in every way from what Eric and his pal did. From his skill at it, to the pleasure he took, to his instincts of self preservation. Something Kuklinski had hardwired, and Eric lacked altoghether. Eric strikes me as rageful narcissist. A completely different breed of guy, and far less...impressive imo . Kinda pathetic. The difference? A man who had power and thought nothing of the consequences of its excercise, versus a dumb kid who desperately craved to taste power regardless of the cost. Basically, this guys got it more or less. + Show Spoiler +
i have to say that i hated that myth too, but after reading this, i find it to be hilarious. hilarious in a really, really sad way.
this a-hole and his buddy, who are not unique in any way, shape or form, wanted to be known and feared.
what are they? they are pitied. people think of them like two little kids who were so bullied that they just couldn't take it anymore. if eric could have looked into the future and seen that, and to a certain extent i think he did, he would have been so effing pissed. half the reason he went through with it, in my opinion, is because he knew that no matter what his ass did, he would be remembered as some victim, in his mind a victim is a "pussy". he didn't want to be a victim, he wanted to be known as a brutal killer who loved every second of his rampage. it was all a part of his big lie.
thats why he wrote the journal, and thats why he tried to make the journal as over-the-top as possible. he wanted us to be afraid of his insanity, when really, he wasn't any more insane than any POS that does a myriad of crazy stupid crap and gets people killed. in fact, i've heard of people who haven't killed anyone that are more evil than him, by a long shot. people who don't waste their time writing journals or justifying themselves, who just do evil for the pure sake of doing evil and could care less how you or i feel about it.
columbine was a fucking horrible tragedy, but i take solace in the fact that those two idiots didn't get anything that they wanted, at all. may everyone involved rest in peace, and hopefully the families of the slain can find some peace too.
edit: also, i don't buy the whole "psychopaths don't feel emotions or empathy" idea. psychopaths are extremely deceptive, even to themselves. they don't like emotions, and they probably wish they didn't feel empathy, but i don't think they actually don't. i think they are faking it. sure they probably have some neurological issues, but i highly doubt that they don't understand very well what they are doing. i think most of the reason they do it is because they think they can get rid of unwanted emotions by doing so. kill a human to kill their own humanity, basically.
I know my serial-murderers, buddy. Richard Kuklinski and Roy DeMeo were literally murder-machines. (No shit, the book about Roy DeMeo is called Murder Machine.) I think you're kind of missing the point though. Eric was 18. He never had a chance to developed and hone his craft. Granted, it would be hard to top Kuklinski. Did you not notice I used a Kuklinski-ism in the post? The story of the guy getting cut off, whipping out a pistol, and shooting 3 guys dead is from The Ice Man. Why I said Eric was a natural born killer was not because he was good at killing, it was because I feel he was genetically predisposed to it. Compared to Kuklinski, he had a very good home life. He had none of the typical factors that create a serial killer. Thus, I think it was more nature, rather than nurture. Kuklinski was made to be the killer he was through extreme bullying, and most serial killers are.
I would never compare Eric Harris to Kuklinski or DeMeo. But, on a long enough time line, I think he could have been a lot like them. They were unique as well in that they were hit-men, not serial killers. Kuklinski was a business man.
There is one part in The Ice Man where everyone is arguing how to best split up this money they just stole. Kuklinski gives them 20 minutes to decide--when they can't, he offers to pick up some food. He buys six hamburgers, puts cyanide on all six of them, hands them out, kills everyone, and takes all the money. Yeah, pretty high bar for evil you're setting there. Anyone sounds like a puppy dog when compared to Kuklinski. You've got like: Andrei Chikatilo, Kuklinski, DeMeo, Albert Fish and HH Holmes in a league of their own. Compared to them, any murderer doesn't seem so bad. In my opinion, you can’t quantify it like that.
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Yeah I really enjoyed this analysis and the write up. It is interesting. I wonder how many people are thinking these thoughts right now. To echo what other people said, I take solace in the fact that these whiny teenage morons only killed a dozen people rather than the entire school, although that does not take away from the tragedy of the event.
Sometimes I wonder if I could kill, I think we all get dark thoughts once in a while, especially when we are stressed out. I like to ponder the thoughts of serial killers and murderers because it reminds me how different I am from them, might be weird but there it is, it makes me feel better about myself.
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His decision that nihilism necessitates murder is an utter fallacy. Life is meaningless, therefore no one deserves to life. If everything is meaningless, why should murder be the answer? Eric is an idiot. He calls himself intelligent and refuses to justify his conclusions, hiding behind "I'm smarter than you" and denying other answers as "dumb."
Fuck you, Eric. Rot.
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On April 17 2012 10:18 kellenr wrote:
There is one part in The Ice Man where everyone is arguing how to best split up this money they just stole. Kuklinski gives them 20 minutes to decide--when they can't, he offers to pick up some food. He buys six hamburgers, puts cyanide on all six of them, hands them out, kills everyone, and takes all the money. Yeah, pretty high bar for evil you're setting there. Anyone sounds like a puppy dog when compared to Kuklinski. You've got like: Andrei Chikatilo, Kuklinski, DeMeo, Albert Fish and HH Holmes in a league of their own. Compared to them, any murderer doesn't seem so bad. In my opinion, you can’t quantify it like that.
Just want to say by the way, that to me the most horrific and craziest serial killer fact is that Pedro Lopez, estimated at killing 300+ victims, was captured in Ecuador, but SET FREE by the government and deported to Colombia, where he was declared insane BUT THEN set free after they declared him sane in 1998!!! So possibly the worst serial killer in history is RIGHT NOW roaming South America almost certainly killing people...crazy.
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This is so beautifully informative I don't know what to say. Maybe I shouldn't know what to say about the content.
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On April 17 2012 10:00 Failsafe wrote:
konadora i didn't get you fired, take this thread down and apologize. this isn't an issue that should be trolled.
wut
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On April 17 2012 08:45 Endymion wrote:
it's stupid how you give him and his aspirations so much credit.. imo his diaries are just that: angsty teen ramblings that just happened to manifest in this attrocity.. you think his aspirations were similar to that of hitler's? hitler didn't want to kill everyone, he wanted to 'cleanse the aryan race.' he wasn't smart either, have you read the papers that he handed in? his hate blinded his reason, and clouded his judgement as a result; the kid was an immature spoiled brat who fancied himself a mass murder.
in particular i wanna talk about the point how he "wanted to fuck girls while he was doing it then rip someones throat out.'' He didn't do either of these... neither did his partner. They both had the weapons and capabilities to do it, but they didn't, because their writings were pure angst. If you ask me what was going through their head in the last few minutes while they walked around was "wow.. this was a really fucking stupid idea, i probably should have just punched a pillow"
I was surprised about this too.The OP attempts to sound as misanthropic as possible saying he hates the human race and gives Harris lots of credit about his image, that Harris does not deserve. It does not take a genius to see the kid was an obvious psychopath, but his image being kept up and him seeing it coming is bullshit. A 13 year old could see how the media will portray such a thing, thats not impressive. Also Harris doesn't seem overly smart, he seems normal, an angsty teen that dips hard into the Nazi counter culture and MODELS his own thoughts after Hitler, not the other way around, he wasn't naturally that way. Also he just sounds like a kid who has a shit ton of angst and is too much of a huge bitch to do anything productive about it. I refuse to believe that this kid was in any way smart, in fact he just had a bad child hood, was a brat because of that upbringing (once again nurture, not nature) and since he was deprived of such a good childhood, he fell victim to the traps that this psychological issues caused. Seriously though giving this kid any kind of credit would be a huge over simplification and a huge misgiving of real credit.
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in my opinion its not very hard to understand why peoples minds get "fucked up" when they live in this worst case scenario of humanity.
looking at them as psychopaths or monsters is facile and wont help to understand them. they are humans just like us. ppl are formed by their environment. if you wanna understand em you gotta understand the world they live in first.
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Epic wall of post, but I dove all into it and it was worth the read. Thank you.
Definitely one of the saddest days in US history. I really think we should seriously consider our gun policies.
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On April 17 2012 11:23 naVaz wrote:
in my opinion its not very hard to understand why peoples minds get "fucked up" when they live in this worst case scenario of humanity.
Pretty sure being bullied in an American High School is not a worst case scenario of humanity. See: people living in slums in Brazil, India, Africa...child armies, sex slavery, etc.
looking at them as psychopaths or monsters is facile and wont help to understand them. they are humans just like us. ppl are formed by their environment. if you wanna understand em you gotta understand the world they live in first.
Hmm, I'm not sure people draw their entire personality from their environment. I'm sure there are plenty of killers or violent people who have grown up with a good family life (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnepropetrovsk_maniacs)
Also I remember one daughter from a well-off family we knew who was basically completely malicious and violent by the age of 6, attacking school mates, mutilating small animals, attacking pets, threatening people with death, basically acting like the girl from the exorcist. I always thought that she is a good example of someone just born to be vicious and violent, she had a proverbial 'screw loose'. Our next door neighbour's son when I was young was kind of like that too, he just wanted to scare and hurt people all the time, although I'm pretty sure his life was a bit more complicated than the previous girl I mentioned.
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On April 17 2012 11:22 docvoc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 08:45 Endymion wrote:
it's stupid how you give him and his aspirations so much credit.. imo his diaries are just that: angsty teen ramblings that just happened to manifest in this attrocity.. you think his aspirations were similar to that of hitler's? hitler didn't want to kill everyone, he wanted to 'cleanse the aryan race.' he wasn't smart either, have you read the papers that he handed in? his hate blinded his reason, and clouded his judgement as a result; the kid was an immature spoiled brat who fancied himself a mass murder.
in particular i wanna talk about the point how he "wanted to fuck girls while he was doing it then rip someones throat out.'' He didn't do either of these... neither did his partner. They both had the weapons and capabilities to do it, but they didn't, because their writings were pure angst. If you ask me what was going through their head in the last few minutes while they walked around was "wow.. this was a really fucking stupid idea, i probably should have just punched a pillow" I was surprised about this too.The OP attempts to sound as misanthropic as possible saying he hates the human race and gives Harris lots of credit about his image, that Harris does not deserve. It does not take a genius to see the kid was an obvious psychopath, but his image being kept up and him seeing it coming is bullshit. A 13 year old could see how the media will portray such a thing, thats not impressive. Also Harris doesn't seem overly smart, he seems normal, an angsty teen that dips hard into the Nazi counter culture and MODELS his own thoughts after Hitler, not the other way around, he wasn't naturally that way. Also he just sounds like a kid who has a shit ton of angst and is too much of a huge bitch to do anything productive about it. I refuse to believe that this kid was in any way smart, in fact he just had a bad child hood, was a brat because of that upbringing (once again nurture, not nature) and since he was deprived of such a good childhood, he fell victim to the traps that this psychological issues caused. Seriously though giving this kid any kind of credit would be a huge over simplification and a huge misgiving of real credit.
Let me start by saying I made some edits to my post. I in no way want people to think I identify with this monster, or glorify how "smart" he was. That is in no way the goal! I said I hated the human race; I was just being facetious. I mean, we're destroying the planet and it's freaking horrible, that's all I was getting at. I'm not some tree huger, and clearly I'm too lazy to fight for it, but you don't have to look very far to see we're going to burn this planet up, easily, in the next 100 years. And it makes me sad and, yes, nihilistic. I got a lot of Kurt Vonnegut in me.
That being said, I will defend myself and my views in a respectable manner.
To say "it doesn't take a genius to see he was a psychopath is" kind of a half-truth. Obviously, when presented with all the information, it is VERY obvious he is a psychopath. Sadly, most people weren't. And by the time the facts became available, people lost interest. The purpose of this thread was to teach people that didn't already know. Like I said before, a lot of people see Dylan and Eric as sympathetic characters--or they at least don't know all the facts about the case, which will help them form a better opinion on if he was or was not. I think when you read his writing, you get a visceral feel for just how much you SHOULDN'T feel sorry for him. And even then calling him a psychopath is not so cut and dry. Many psychologists are very hesitant to slap the label of "psychopath" on someone so young. The profiler was almost nervous when he gave his presentation on it. It's almost taboo, in a way. Most school shooters, and children in general, are NOT psychopaths. I can't stress this enough. It's what makes this case so unique in all my readings.
Also, when did I ever say Hitler models his thoughts after Eric? Of course Eric was modeling his thoughts after Hitler. That's kind of what I was pointing out, actually...
Finally, the part I have the most problem with. In no way do I want people to think I am glorifying him. I am so hesitant to even type this and defend myself, suffice to say it is the truth and so I will share it for only that reason. While Eric was nothing close to a genius, saying he was of "normal teen intelligence" is silly. I didn't read much in high school, and I still considered myself an intellectual. I definitely didn't read Shakespeare, unless I had to for school. I didn't read many books, and most high school kids don't, unless they have to. (and then who doesn't use spark notes?) Most of what I know about how smart (or not smart) Eric Harris was comes from the book, from what his friends/counselors/teachers said about him. They all said he was smart, quiet, articulate and charming. He would have to be relatively crafty to hide a year’s worth of weapons and ammunition collection and constant bomb building. I think a lot of people "blame the parents" because they don't understand how crafty and deceptive he/psychopaths are. That's all I was trying to point out, for people that didn't know. I wasn't trying to tout him as some great philosopher or intellectual.
I hate the medias obsession with body count. I hate how I feel like people literally view it as a competition. I can even say I was guilty of it at one point, but once you realize each number is actually a lost human life, often a childs... it just makes the thought of it being a competition despicable. That being said, I still feel the need to articulate this next point. I just didn't want anyone accusing me of being "that guy."
I think you fail to fully grasp the implications of just how horrible this would had been had it gone to plan. Literally 1,000 children/people could have died that day. That's a high estimate, but it's not out of the question. It would have probably been worse than the Beslan School bombing in Russia. Instead of hearing Timothy McVeigh every time someone mentioned the worst domestic terror attack, you would hear Eric Harris and Dylan Kleebold. Think about that for a second. I honestly think had it all gone to plan, they would be viewed more as terrorists than school shooters. I think this sort of supports my assertion that he was above average intelligence. He dreamed fairly big for an 18 year old, I think that's undisputable. I stand by my assertions that he was one of the most sadistic minds, certainly, of my generation. And had it all gone to plan, all of you would too.
Also, I think it's really silly you would say he had a "bad childhood." I mean, while that is relative, have you read about, I don't know... other murderers? Do you know what makes a monster? I can tell you what it usually is, and what it usually is not. It usually is: A severely physically and emotionally abusive parent or parents; a total lack of self-esteem through childhood; I fascination with animal abuse or cruelty; severe emotional problems or "awkwardness" resulting in isolation; drugs or alcohol being abused in the house; sexual abuse; the presence of an older, influential psychopath.
It usually is not: someone that was raised by responsible parents on several military bases, and in the Colorado suburbs; someone who had dependable role models; someone who wasn't physically abused; someone that was never observed harming animals; someone that attended a respectable high school in middle-America.
To not be fascinated by just how and why Eric Harris is a psychopath would be silly. It literally, in my opinion, defies explanation. The things you described, normal teen angst, rarely cause a killer of the proportions Eric attempted. Yeah, that might make a kid fire off a few rounds at random into a sea of classmates. But Eric didn't do that. He tried to kill everyone.
Lastly, literally this whole thread was brought on by my hatred of people wanting to always chalk school shootings up to bullying or "bad parents" or any one thing. That's not to say it doesn't cause them, it does! Bullying played a factor at Columbine. But only one factor! And there are a lot of factors! That's what you have to keep in mind. It's never just one thing, trying to think about it like that will literally never yield a good answer. It's usually the perfect storm of things.
Please don't take this as a personal attack. I love to write and saw an oppurtunity to explain more on the subject. Not an attack in the least.
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On April 17 2012 10:36 sc4k wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2012 10:18 kellenr wrote:
There is one part in The Ice Man where everyone is arguing how to best split up this money they just stole. Kuklinski gives them 20 minutes to decide--when they can't, he offers to pick up some food. He buys six hamburgers, puts cyanide on all six of them, hands them out, kills everyone, and takes all the money. Yeah, pretty high bar for evil you're setting there. Anyone sounds like a puppy dog when compared to Kuklinski. You've got like: Andrei Chikatilo, Kuklinski, DeMeo, Albert Fish and HH Holmes in a league of their own. Compared to them, any murderer doesn't seem so bad. In my opinion, you can’t quantify it like that. Just want to say by the way, that to me the most horrific and craziest serial killer fact is that Pedro Lopez, estimated at killing 300+ victims, was captured in Ecuador, but SET FREE by the government and deported to Colombia, where he was declared insane BUT THEN set free after they declared him sane in 1998!!! So possibly the worst serial killer in history is RIGHT NOW roaming South America almost certainly killing people...crazy.
Oh yes I remember when I saw that documentary... I was literally inconsolable. The part where they let him go, knowing he's killed over 300 children, my brain just couldn't take it... Yeah, I should have put him on that list. At the very freaking top. The Monster of the fucking Andes. God what I could do with 10 minutes alone with that guy.
I despise child killers with such a unique, burning hatred. I mean it's bad enough you've got to kill people. Can't you at least pick on someone your own size? You have to pick on a fucking seven year old? And a girl at that? You're that much of a spineless bitch?
God, a high-caliber rifle and a clear sky--ten minutes. All I would need to solve that little problem.
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