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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP. If you make an uninformed post, or one that isn't relevant to the discussion, you will be moderated. If in doubt, don't post. | ||
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Felnarion
442 Posts
On July 12 2013 02:50 xDaunt wrote: The Defense can and should object if they're paying attention. I guess, like was said above, perhaps they realize it's such a blatant lie, not even mischaracterization, just an outright lie, that the jurors will actually penalize him and his credibility for it. | ||
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shockaslim
United States1105 Posts
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
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sc2superfan101
3583 Posts
atually more like a William Shatner reading of a prosecutions closing arguments... | ||
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PanzerKing
United States483 Posts
On July 12 2013 02:37 xDaunt wrote: Wow, I can't believe that the State tried to throw in child abuse and felony murder charges at the last moment. Total bullshit move. I can't even believe that the judge initially considered letting them get away with it. I didn't really follow the argument, but based on my limited understanding of the argument being made, I wouldn't have allowed it is because the action that forms the corpus of the underlying felony charge can't be the exact, specific act which results in the death of the felony murder victim. I mean, you can't accuse him of felony murder and then use shooting Trayvon as the basis for an underlying felony charge. Felony murder just doesn't work that way. If he were trying to rob Trayvon and he shot him in the process, I would have no problem with it. If he were trying to kidnap Trayvon and he shot him, I'd have no problem with it. If there was a legitimate child abuse allegation outside of the shooting itself, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But to use the shooting as the basis for both the underlying Felony and the direct cause of death in the Felony Murder charge? You can't do that - Felony Murder just doesn't work that way. I can't believe they even asked. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
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Yoav
United States1874 Posts
On July 12 2013 01:27 plogamer wrote: You're grasping if you are trying to argue that swearing and cussing reflects a calm state of mind. /edit I can imagine your wedding proposal. "Will you fucking marry me, you punk?" If you are calm when proposing, you're probably doing it wrong. Very interesting case. I, for one, am coming out of this knowing more about the legal system than I did before. | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
On July 12 2013 02:55 xDaunt wrote: Bernie is way-overplaying his hand. This is the kind of disingenuous stuff that pisses jurors off. Yep. And it's the kind of shit that takes them from considering a lesser included, to a complete acquittal because of the prosecution's lack of credibility. To convict on anything would be to reward this behavior / conduct. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On July 12 2013 02:54 PanzerKing wrote: I didn't really follow the argument, but based on my limited understanding of the argument being made, I wouldn't have allowed it is because the action that forms the corpus of the underlying felony charge can't be the exact, specific act which results in the death of the felony murder victim. I mean, you can't accuse him of felony murder and then use shooting Trayvon as the basis for an underlying felony charge. Felony murder just doesn't work that way. If he were trying to rob Trayvon and he shot him in the process, I would have no problem with it. If he were trying to kidnap Trayvon and he shot him, I'd have no problem with it. If there was a legitimate child abuse allegation outside of the shooting itself, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But to use the shooting as the basis for both the underlying Felony and the direct cause of death in the Felony Murder charge? You can't do that - Felony Murder just doesn't work that way. I can't believe they even asked. The problem is that the felony murder/3d murder charge had to be predicated upon child abuse, and there was no charge of child abuse. Second degree murder doesn't otherwise have the same elements as child abuse, so those charges couldn't be allowed (unlike the manslaughter charge). | ||
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sc2superfan101
3583 Posts
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PanzerKing
United States483 Posts
On July 12 2013 02:56 xDaunt wrote: The problem is that the felony murder/3d murder charge had to be predicated upon child abuse, and there was no charge of child abuse. Second degree murder doesn't otherwise have the same elements as child abuse, so those charges couldn't be allowed (unlike the manslaughter charge). So there was no child abuse felony on the indictment? Then the prosecution's request makes even less sense than I thought. Thanks for the clarification. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On July 12 2013 02:55 xDaunt wrote: Bernie is way-overplaying his hand. This is the kind of disingenuous stuff that pisses jurors off. ya and he seems so aggressive. I know it's his style but it's really intimidating to listen to. Can someone tell me what happened to the third degree charge and manslaughter? Now using the empathy card. Does this work? The jury is made up of women after all. | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
On July 12 2013 02:59 BigFan wrote: ya and he seems so aggressive. I know it's his style but it's really intimidating to listen to. Can someone tell me what happened to the third degree charge and manslaughter? Now using the empathy card. Does this work? The jury is made up of women after all. Manslaughter in. Third Degree with child abuse out. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
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Felnarion
442 Posts
On July 12 2013 02:59 BigFan wrote: ya and he seems so aggressive. I know it's his style but it's really intimidating to listen to. Can someone tell me what happened to the third degree charge and manslaughter? Now using the empathy card. Does this work? The jury is made up of women after all. Judge basically said there was no proof of child abuse. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On July 12 2013 03:02 Kaitlin wrote: Manslaughter in. Third Degree with child abuse out. cool thanks! On July 12 2013 03:03 LegalLord wrote: Blatant attempt to abuse the human element of a jury if I've ever seen one. yup and watch the jury get deadlocked or go for Trayvon because this arm wrestling technique(dunno if it has an actual name). | ||
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sc2superfan101
3583 Posts
On July 12 2013 03:02 xDaunt wrote: At some point, Bernie actually has to describe a criminal act. He hasn't yet, i don't see why he'd start now. If they start tossing out their BS ideas, the defense will have an opportunity to show that the BS is refuted by evidence. These prosecutors are trash. | ||
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nihlon
Sweden5581 Posts
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