In a scenario such as a standup comedy show, people understand that they are entering into a space in which offensive language will be used to make them laugh. They have chosen to pay to enter, and it is expected that they do so fully understanding this fact. If the show was advertised as a "family" show, this changes things; the only scenario where somebody's offense is useful in a standup comedy show would be a "family" show whose comedian suddenly starts spouting racist jokes.
If you and your friends have a long history of dialogue about what offends whom, and everybody's opinions are out in the open, it becomes much like a comedy show - you're expecting what's to come, and have consented to it.
However, in any public space (yes, that includes the internet) there is a certain level of decency that is expected of people. There are certain comments and sets of language which are commonly considered offensive (I believe those of you saying "well, I just shouldn't say anything since I might offend somebody somewhere" are being deliberately ignorant.) because they offend wide swaths of people (entire subcultures, ethnic groups, genders, or other groupings of people who are considered a minority or have been oppressed in the past due to factors such as race or gender). Comments such as these are considered inappropriate and offensive for a reason, and it is not on the listener to "man the fuck up" or "stop whining so much." It's on you to be a more considerate speaker and learn the rules of society.
On March 27 2012 02:01 Djzapz wrote: Was just going to post that one from Steve Hughes. Offended people should just grow up, at least a lot of the time.
But again, like I said, it depends. Should that audience have just "grown up" when Michael Richards (the Kramer guy) stood on stage and just said the N-word repeatedly? No, I think they were well within their rights to get pissed at him.
What's your rationale for that? Just because? The audience shouldn't give a fuck, it doesn't hurt them unless they let it.
Have you seen the video for it?
It wasn't that he used the word in a joke, he was actually genuinely being racist for the sake of being racist, putting another person down because of the color of their skin. And everyone should have just stayed silent and condoned it?
No, that's fucked up, imo.
Nothing wrong happened in that situation. The man is a moron and people are free to express their anger, and then the media will pick that up and the man will lose a bunch of supporters. Self regulating, isn't it?
I'm not saying that people shouldn't condemn it, I do condemn racism myself, but please fucking realize that none of these person should feel hurt by one guy expressing racism. For every publicly vocal racist there's 10,000 quiet ones who hate brown and black people. Plenty of the people in that audience probably agreed with his bullshit. What does it fucking matter if the guy expresses it then? Will you feel better if people are quiet about it?
People shouldn't get worked up about these things. Big whoop racism is still alive and kicking, continue condemning it but don't get all worked up and cry in bed about it.
I consider myself to be very open-minded but also straightforward in my conversations, and I enjoy talking about "offensive" and/or not-politically-correct subjects all the time.
To be honest, Stephen Fry annoys me a little after this.
Any anti-homosexual or pro-religious statement will cause him to rant and go off on tirades, but apparently anything he says is vindicated because people are too easily offended?
On March 27 2012 01:51 decerto wrote: "I don't think you should just be able to just say whatever the hell you want", then you probably shouldnt be living in a country where its built into your constitution
No, it isn't built into our constitution. What is built into the constitution is a protection from criminal charges when you speak your mind, that does not mean you have protection from social consequences or other consequences. Yes you have the right to insult anyone and everyone you want, or say whatever you want that is offensive, but you can still be punished for it. Try calling your boss a raging asshole and then tell him to fuck off and see if you get to keep your job.
"But I have the right to free speech!" No, no you have the right to say what you want without consequences from the law, not from all consequences period.
And the law doesn't even extend to all circumstances: try shouting fire in a crowded theater when there is no fire and see what happens to you.
As for being offended: if someone says something deliberately offensive, then chances are pretty good they intended for you to be offended. Yes, it's silly to state how you feel about something for no other reason than to state it, it doesn't really have any purpose other than to share information most people don't care about. That said, offending people probably isn't a very good way to get anything useful done.
it isn't even true to the extent that you are free from legal reprecussions, the "fire in the crowded theater" example for one. there are aspects of speech that aren't protected under the first amendment. vulgarity, being defined as language which brings nothing to a conversation. fighting words, being words which are likely to make the person to whom they are addressed commit an act of violence. also conspiracy, if you are discussing the overthrow of the government, in a serious manner, you can be arrested for it. the supreme court ruled that the government doesn't have to wait until the person or persons make an attempt, the intent to do so is sufficient. so your freedom of speech isn't so free as it would seem
On March 27 2012 01:36 AwayFromLife wrote: There's definitely a difference between getting offended at comments that don't mean anything and comments that are meant to be scathing and offensive.
I definitely disagree. Words are just words. Getting offended over any of them, regardless of their intent, is foolish.
Look at it this way, if the words you feel offended over were not meant to be offensive, you're overreacting. If they WERE meant to be offensive, you're playing right into their hand.
On March 27 2012 02:18 Vega62a wrote: Context is everything.
In a scenario such as a standup comedy show, people understand that they are entering into a space in which offensive language will be used to make them laugh. They have chosen to pay to enter, and it is expected that they do so fully understanding this fact. If the show was advertised as a "family" show, this changes things; the only scenario where somebody's offense is useful in a standup comedy show would be a "family" show whose comedian suddenly starts spouting racist jokes.
If you and your friends have a long history of dialogue about what offends whom, and everybody's opinions are out in the open, it becomes much like a comedy show - you're expecting what's to come, and have consented to it.
However, in any public space (yes, that includes the internet) there is a certain level of decency that is expected of people. There are certain comments and sets of language which are commonly considered offensive (I believe those of you saying "well, I just shouldn't say anything since I might offend somebody somewhere" are being deliberately ignorant.) because they offend wide swaths of people (entire subcultures, ethnic groups, genders, or other groupings of people who are considered a minority or have been oppressed in the past due to factors such as race or gender). Comments such as these are considered inappropriate and offensive for a reason, and it is not on the listener to "man the fuck up" or "stop whining so much." It's on you to be a more considerate speaker and learn the rules of society.
What the.. You're expecting decency out of people in the internet? o_O
On topic: Being offended by things other people say is silly. People need to learn to deal with opinions of other people rather then try to get them banned. The same goes for "banned" words. Yes I'm not an american and yes I don't get why "the n word" is soooo horrible for you people.
On March 27 2012 02:18 Vega62a wrote: Context is everything.
In a scenario such as a standup comedy show, people understand that they are entering into a space in which offensive language will be used to make them laugh. They have chosen to pay to enter, and it is expected that they do so fully understanding this fact. If the show was advertised as a "family" show, this changes things; the only scenario where somebody's offense is useful in a standup comedy show would be a "family" show whose comedian suddenly starts spouting racist jokes.
If you and your friends have a long history of dialogue about what offends whom, and everybody's opinions are out in the open, it becomes much like a comedy show - you're expecting what's to come, and have consented to it.
However, in any public space (yes, that includes the internet) there is a certain level of decency that is expected of people. There are certain comments and sets of language which are commonly considered offensive (I believe those of you saying "well, I just shouldn't say anything since I might offend somebody somewhere" are being deliberately ignorant.) because they offend wide swaths of people (entire subcultures, ethnic groups, genders, or other groupings of people who are considered a minority or have been oppressed in the past due to factors such as race or gender). Comments such as these are considered inappropriate and offensive for a reason, and it is not on the listener to "man the fuck up" or "stop whining so much." It's on you to be a more considerate speaker and learn the rules of society.
What the.. You're expecting decency out of people in the internet? o_O
On topic: Being offended by things other people say is silly. People need to learn to deal with opinions of other people rather then try to get them banned. The same goes for "banned" words. Yes I'm not an american and yes I don't get why "the n word" is soooo horrible for you people.
Not expecting so much as "foolishly wishing for."
On topic: You don't understand because you have never been a black man in America. This is what I mean - you need to learn to understand the context of people who are not you. This is part of having cultural awareness and sensitivity.
I grew up with ginger hair, a minority group, and don't think because it's only hair think that stops kids abusing you. Ask any kid with ginger hair.. I mean after all we have no souls right? we deserve it. You can be charged for racism for abusing skin colour, but not hair colour, so that gives kids free reign to bully others, but you know.. I can't actually think at any time I've been offended by someone calling me things to do with my hair colour after about age 5. I often told people if they were going to insult me, at least make it funny. Calling me a "ginger dickhead" "ginger wanker" or whatever, just show's a lack of imagination, and neither is funny or offensive. You learn to roll with the punches, my best friend at school was fat. We used to spend hours just verbally abusing each other for something to do.
People need to grow up, and either learn to respond in kind, or suck it up. I bet I have received more verbal abuse on a daily basis because of such a stupid thing as my hair colour, than most of the people who complain about being offended ever have in their lives. That's what offends me, I learnt to live with the torrent of abuse, and embrace it, even as a child. If any adults ever bitch about being offended in front of me.. they can go straight to hell for all I care.
and people can say it's all a jest about hair colour.. My own mother (who is also ginger) got told by one of her friends.. "no offense, but I hope I don't have ginger children, If I did I'd probably throw them in a canal." Now that is some venomous shit without any kind of basis.
On March 27 2012 01:58 andrewlt wrote: In the context of TL, that argument is often used as an excuse by people who post stupid and immature things that got them moderated. Whenever I see somebody talking about other people getting offended easily, I picture a shitty poster whining about TL's moderation.
QFT.
It's rare for a choice or words to offend me. What offends me is stupidity and immaturity. And I have little sympathy for people that get called out for it.
On March 27 2012 02:17 xenobarf wrote: Thoughts are as follows, either we have free speech or we do not, there is no middle area. Personally I'm for free speech.
Happy birthday, but really? No middle area?
(Everything allowed to say) ------------------------- (???????????????) ---------------------------------- (nothing allowed to say)
Any ideas of what could go in a middle area? (Hint, think of how it is in Sweden.)
On March 27 2012 01:36 AwayFromLife wrote: There's definitely a difference between getting offended at comments that don't mean anything and comments that are meant to be scathing and offensive.
I definitely disagree. Words are just words. Getting offended over any of them, regardless of their intent, is foolish.
Look at it this way, if the words you feel offended over were not meant to be offensive, you're overreacting. If they WERE meant to be offensive, you're playing right into their hand.
Words may be words, but the intent is what matters.
I don't call black people niggers (there, I typed it, happy?) for the same reason I don't call most women whores. Sure, it's just a word, it doesn't really mean anything, but when you say it, you are in essence belittling their character. And if they aren't doing anything to deserve such belittlement, then yes they are allowed to be upset at your use of it.
On March 27 2012 02:25 Faggatron wrote: Context: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnSByCb8lqY He's talking about having to tiptoe around religious people because they might be "offended" by criticisms of it.
This is a good example of context, and of what is commonly understood to be offensive or not. Christians, especially American Christians, are the dominant power in the country. They are not persecuted (despite their pleas to the contrary) in any practical way. I can't think of the last time somebody was lynched for being Christian. (Feuds between Catholics and Protestants don't count, that was a mutual exchange.) Jewish people have had it slightly worse, so I would consider them gray area. But making anti-Muslim comments would be considered offensive since good, honest Muslims are honestly discriminated against in many parts of the country.
On March 27 2012 02:17 xenobarf wrote: Thoughts are as follows, either we have free speech or we do not, there is no middle area. Personally I'm for free speech.
Happy birthday, but really? No middle area?
(Everything allowed to say) ------------------------- (???????????????) ---------------------------------- (nothing allowed to say)
Any ideas of what could go in a middle area? (Hint, think of how it is in Sweden.)
I honestly don't get the mentality of one extreme or the other extreme absolutely no compromise.
He's talking about having to tiptoe around religious people because they might be "offended" by criticisms of it.
Well, even in that regard, there's a line to be drawn. There's a difference between talking calmly and kindly about differences in religion, and screaming at one another because you don't believe in the same thing.
I'm a believer, and I would never insult anyone of a different religion, and I don't make fun of my atheist friends. I don't get upset when a non-believer asks me why I believe in God, but I do get my jimmies rustled when someone immediately identifies me as a bible-thumping idiot and claims superiority over me for my beliefs.
On March 27 2012 01:36 AwayFromLife wrote: There's definitely a difference between getting offended at comments that don't mean anything and comments that are meant to be scathing and offensive.
I definitely disagree. Words are just words. Getting offended over any of them, regardless of their intent, is foolish.
Look at it this way, if the words you feel offended over were not meant to be offensive, you're overreacting. If they WERE meant to be offensive, you're playing right into their hand.
Words may be words, but the intent is what matters.
I don't call black people niggers (there, I typed it, happy?) for the same reason I don't call most women whores. Sure, it's just a word, it doesn't really mean anything, but when you say it, you are in essence belittling their character. And if they aren't doing anything to deserve such belittlement, then yes they are allowed to be upset at your use of it.
-"You think I'm a criminal because I'm black? That's offensive!" "No sir, we pat everyone down in the airport."
you know racism is still a pretty big issue, innocent black people get accused on a much higher rate than white people, i don't think you actually should be saying it's stupid to get offended by such things; imo it's far more common for people to go "OOH BLACK PEOPLE SO SENSITIVE" even though there's a real issue than it's the other way around. I think being offended is a good phrase, like has been said you have the right to get offended it doesn't automatically mean you should get to impose restrictions on whatever is offending you though.
I dont know if it's called racism that more blacks are accused than whites. 1 out of 8 black men are in prison in the US, around as many in prison as in college. Them getting accused just because they are black would be kind of racist.
that might be correct, but the reason as to why they are overrepresented in prison compared to white men is a class-issue rather than a skin-coulour-issue. If you look at it this way; most white/hispanic/black/whatever men/women in prison belongs to the american underclass.
On March 27 2012 02:17 xenobarf wrote: Thoughts are as follows, either we have free speech or we do not, there is no middle area. Personally I'm for free speech.
Happy birthday, but really? No middle area?
(Everything allowed to say) ------------------------- (???????????????) ---------------------------------- (nothing allowed to say)
Any ideas of what could go in a middle area? (Hint, think of how it is in Sweden.)
The problem is that if we go into it trying to define a middle area, the who does this? All human beings are infallible and or biased in some form or another.
And yes, I agree that going around throwing racial slurs or doing salutes to Hitler is not a nice thing.
EPT
it doesn't automatically mean you should get to impose restrictions on whatever is offending you though.
