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Obama had no experience of politics before he got elected. A president is not about the character (look Merkel) but the proposals made...
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On May 03 2012 05:52 JohnMatrix wrote:
Obama had no experience of politics before he got elected. A president is not about the character (look Merkel) but the proposals made...
A US President has way way less power than a French one.
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On May 03 2012 05:42 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:39 Hider wrote:On May 03 2012 05:15 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 03 2012 05:06 Wegandi wrote:
If its willingly, then its not a tax.
That's such a logical fallacy, I'm speechless. I have to pay my taxes anyway, but I could fight to pay less through my opinions and my vote, and support people who want to lower my taxes. Sorry but the government is, as a citizen, my government. The public school are my schools, the hospitals, my hospitals, the police, my police. The police is there to protect me, the hospital to take care of my health if something goes bad, the schools to educate my children. Sorry to still believe in democracy and that the word Republic (Res-publica) are not empty words. Assume this world. I have 20 slaves. You are one of them. I give all the slaves different "benefits". Those who are really lazy/handicaped by nature/doesn't work alot still gets food everyday and can sleep in a bed. Whether this is justified or not is not my question. But lets assume I actually have an election each year. If 11+ slaves agrees to be released I will release them. However for different reasons the slaves dont wanna be released (again the specific reasons on why they do not wanna be released is not up to to debate). However you want to be released, but through this democratic election you can't. Your slave lord (me) gives you the option to different places, but you will always be a slave (just under another lord). My question is: Is this slavery voluntary? Define "slave". As soon as you will have, you'll see the term either does not apply to citizens or loses all its meaning.
I just described what slave in this context mean. You can change it with any kind of workd.
Lets even say that I as your lord refers to you as "citizens" instead of slaves. Maybe we could even go further and I (as your lord) give you a small wage and allow you to own private property.
When do you become a voluntary "slave"/"citizen"? What are the requirements?
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"Les tensions dont je parle, elles viennent de qui, elle viennent d'où ?" -Nicolas Sarkozy (speaking about Islam, OBVIOUSLY)
And here we FUCKING GO. That really makes me want to puke.
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I think everybody here would agree that Obama would be a much finer french president than any of the 2 here.
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On May 03 2012 05:55 Marou wrote:
"Les tensions dont je parle, elles viennent de qui, elle viennent d'où ?" -Nicolas Sarkozy (speaking about Islam, OBVIOUSLY)
And here we FUCKING GO. That really makes me want to puke.
And here he is gaining thousands of votes unfortunately.
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On May 03 2012 05:55 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:42 kwizach wrote:On May 03 2012 05:39 Hider wrote:On May 03 2012 05:15 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 03 2012 05:06 Wegandi wrote:
If its willingly, then its not a tax.
That's such a logical fallacy, I'm speechless. I have to pay my taxes anyway, but I could fight to pay less through my opinions and my vote, and support people who want to lower my taxes. Sorry but the government is, as a citizen, my government. The public school are my schools, the hospitals, my hospitals, the police, my police. The police is there to protect me, the hospital to take care of my health if something goes bad, the schools to educate my children. Sorry to still believe in democracy and that the word Republic (Res-publica) are not empty words. Assume this world. I have 20 slaves. You are one of them. I give all the slaves different "benefits". Those who are really lazy/handicaped by nature/doesn't work alot still gets food everyday and can sleep in a bed. Whether this is justified or not is not my question. But lets assume I actually have an election each year. If 11+ slaves agrees to be released I will release them. However for different reasons the slaves dont wanna be released (again the specific reasons on why they do not wanna be released is not up to to debate). However you want to be released, but through this democratic election you can't. Your slave lord (me) gives you the option to different places, but you will always be a slave (just under another lord). My question is: Is this slavery voluntary? Define "slave". As soon as you will have, you'll see the term either does not apply to citizens or loses all its meaning. I just described what slave in this context mean. You can change it with any kind of workd. Lets even say that I as your lord refers to you as "citizens" instead of slaves. Maybe we could even go further and I (as your lord) give you a small wage and allow you to own private property. When do you become a voluntary "slave"/"citizen"? What are the requirements?
No, you did not define the word. You have to define the word before any argument can be made.
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On May 03 2012 05:56 VyingsP wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:55 Marou wrote:
"Les tensions dont je parle, elles viennent de qui, elle viennent d'où ?" -Nicolas Sarkozy (speaking about Islam, OBVIOUSLY)
And here we FUCKING GO. That really makes me want to puke. And here he is gaining thousands of votes unfortunately.
haha same here. This makes me so sick... I can't believe he's using fear of a different religion to get votes :'(
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On May 03 2012 05:58 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:55 Hider wrote:On May 03 2012 05:42 kwizach wrote:On May 03 2012 05:39 Hider wrote:On May 03 2012 05:15 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 03 2012 05:06 Wegandi wrote:
If its willingly, then its not a tax.
That's such a logical fallacy, I'm speechless. I have to pay my taxes anyway, but I could fight to pay less through my opinions and my vote, and support people who want to lower my taxes. Sorry but the government is, as a citizen, my government. The public school are my schools, the hospitals, my hospitals, the police, my police. The police is there to protect me, the hospital to take care of my health if something goes bad, the schools to educate my children. Sorry to still believe in democracy and that the word Republic (Res-publica) are not empty words. Assume this world. I have 20 slaves. You are one of them. I give all the slaves different "benefits". Those who are really lazy/handicaped by nature/doesn't work alot still gets food everyday and can sleep in a bed. Whether this is justified or not is not my question. But lets assume I actually have an election each year. If 11+ slaves agrees to be released I will release them. However for different reasons the slaves dont wanna be released (again the specific reasons on why they do not wanna be released is not up to to debate). However you want to be released, but through this democratic election you can't. Your slave lord (me) gives you the option to different places, but you will always be a slave (just under another lord). My question is: Is this slavery voluntary? Define "slave". As soon as you will have, you'll see the term either does not apply to citizens or loses all its meaning. I just described what slave in this context mean. You can change it with any kind of workd. Lets even say that I as your lord refers to you as "citizens" instead of slaves. Maybe we could even go further and I (as your lord) give you a small wage and allow you to own private property. When do you become a voluntary "slave"/"citizen"? What are the requirements? No, you did not define the word. You have to define the word before any argument can be made.
Your missing the point. Im not asking whether you are a slave or not. Im asking whether you are a voluntary part of this system.
The question you could be asking (if you find it nessacary) is how "voluntary" should be defined (because that is what is being discussed as Billtheunderstudy apparently finds that taxes are voluntary as he happily pays his taxes).
If you read my post you will see that I never asked whether taxes makes you a slave or not.
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On May 03 2012 06:03 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:58 kwizach wrote:On May 03 2012 05:55 Hider wrote:On May 03 2012 05:42 kwizach wrote:On May 03 2012 05:39 Hider wrote:On May 03 2012 05:15 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 03 2012 05:06 Wegandi wrote:
If its willingly, then its not a tax.
That's such a logical fallacy, I'm speechless. I have to pay my taxes anyway, but I could fight to pay less through my opinions and my vote, and support people who want to lower my taxes. Sorry but the government is, as a citizen, my government. The public school are my schools, the hospitals, my hospitals, the police, my police. The police is there to protect me, the hospital to take care of my health if something goes bad, the schools to educate my children. Sorry to still believe in democracy and that the word Republic (Res-publica) are not empty words. Assume this world. I have 20 slaves. You are one of them. I give all the slaves different "benefits". Those who are really lazy/handicaped by nature/doesn't work alot still gets food everyday and can sleep in a bed. Whether this is justified or not is not my question. But lets assume I actually have an election each year. If 11+ slaves agrees to be released I will release them. However for different reasons the slaves dont wanna be released (again the specific reasons on why they do not wanna be released is not up to to debate). However you want to be released, but through this democratic election you can't. Your slave lord (me) gives you the option to different places, but you will always be a slave (just under another lord). My question is: Is this slavery voluntary? Define "slave". As soon as you will have, you'll see the term either does not apply to citizens or loses all its meaning. I just described what slave in this context mean. You can change it with any kind of workd. Lets even say that I as your lord refers to you as "citizens" instead of slaves. Maybe we could even go further and I (as your lord) give you a small wage and allow you to own private property. When do you become a voluntary "slave"/"citizen"? What are the requirements? No, you did not define the word. You have to define the word before any argument can be made. Your missing the point. Im not asking whether you are a slave or not. Im asking whether you are a voluntary part of this system. The question you could be asking (if you find it nessacary) is how "voluntary" should be defined (because that is what is being discussed as Billtheunderstudy apparently finds that taxes are voluntary as he happily pays his taxes). If you read my post you will see that I never asked whether taxes makes you a slave or not.
No, you used the word "slave" for a very clear purpose, and that's why I'm asking you to define it.
Regarding the voluntary character of paying taxes, it can be argued that if you don't want to pay taxes you can always move elsewhere, for example to Antarctica.
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On May 03 2012 06:07 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 06:03 Hider wrote:On May 03 2012 05:58 kwizach wrote:On May 03 2012 05:55 Hider wrote:On May 03 2012 05:42 kwizach wrote:On May 03 2012 05:39 Hider wrote:On May 03 2012 05:15 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 03 2012 05:06 Wegandi wrote:
If its willingly, then its not a tax.
That's such a logical fallacy, I'm speechless. I have to pay my taxes anyway, but I could fight to pay less through my opinions and my vote, and support people who want to lower my taxes. Sorry but the government is, as a citizen, my government. The public school are my schools, the hospitals, my hospitals, the police, my police. The police is there to protect me, the hospital to take care of my health if something goes bad, the schools to educate my children. Sorry to still believe in democracy and that the word Republic (Res-publica) are not empty words. Assume this world. I have 20 slaves. You are one of them. I give all the slaves different "benefits". Those who are really lazy/handicaped by nature/doesn't work alot still gets food everyday and can sleep in a bed. Whether this is justified or not is not my question. But lets assume I actually have an election each year. If 11+ slaves agrees to be released I will release them. However for different reasons the slaves dont wanna be released (again the specific reasons on why they do not wanna be released is not up to to debate). However you want to be released, but through this democratic election you can't. Your slave lord (me) gives you the option to different places, but you will always be a slave (just under another lord). My question is: Is this slavery voluntary? Define "slave". As soon as you will have, you'll see the term either does not apply to citizens or loses all its meaning. I just described what slave in this context mean. You can change it with any kind of workd. Lets even say that I as your lord refers to you as "citizens" instead of slaves. Maybe we could even go further and I (as your lord) give you a small wage and allow you to own private property. When do you become a voluntary "slave"/"citizen"? What are the requirements? No, you did not define the word. You have to define the word before any argument can be made. Your missing the point. Im not asking whether you are a slave or not. Im asking whether you are a voluntary part of this system. The question you could be asking (if you find it nessacary) is how "voluntary" should be defined (because that is what is being discussed as Billtheunderstudy apparently finds that taxes are voluntary as he happily pays his taxes). If you read my post you will see that I never asked whether taxes makes you a slave or not. No, you used the word "slave" for a very clear purpose, and that's why I'm asking you to define it. Regarding the voluntary character of paying taxes, it can be argued that if you don't want to pay taxes you can always move elsewhere, for example to Antarctica.
Yeh the reason I used "slave" is purely for a psychological reason (as most people will be more inclined to answer that it isn't voluntary), and the it would be compltely obivous that taxes aren't voluntary as well as a lot of premises in that world were the same as in the real world.
But if you can look at this from a purely rational perspective, its compltetely irrational if I use "slave" or not. Just look at that scenario I gave you, and answer whether you are a voluntary part of it or not.
Regarding moving away, I actually gave the option of one moving to other "slave lords".
But does taxes become voluntary if one has the oppurtunity to move to another place where one isn't going to be taxed, even though there is no thereotical way of living a decent life?
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On May 03 2012 06:11 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 06:07 kwizach wrote:On May 03 2012 06:03 Hider wrote:On May 03 2012 05:58 kwizach wrote:On May 03 2012 05:55 Hider wrote:On May 03 2012 05:42 kwizach wrote:On May 03 2012 05:39 Hider wrote:On May 03 2012 05:15 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 03 2012 05:06 Wegandi wrote:
If its willingly, then its not a tax.
That's such a logical fallacy, I'm speechless. I have to pay my taxes anyway, but I could fight to pay less through my opinions and my vote, and support people who want to lower my taxes. Sorry but the government is, as a citizen, my government. The public school are my schools, the hospitals, my hospitals, the police, my police. The police is there to protect me, the hospital to take care of my health if something goes bad, the schools to educate my children. Sorry to still believe in democracy and that the word Republic (Res-publica) are not empty words. Assume this world. I have 20 slaves. You are one of them. I give all the slaves different "benefits". Those who are really lazy/handicaped by nature/doesn't work alot still gets food everyday and can sleep in a bed. Whether this is justified or not is not my question. But lets assume I actually have an election each year. If 11+ slaves agrees to be released I will release them. However for different reasons the slaves dont wanna be released (again the specific reasons on why they do not wanna be released is not up to to debate). However you want to be released, but through this democratic election you can't. Your slave lord (me) gives you the option to different places, but you will always be a slave (just under another lord). My question is: Is this slavery voluntary? Define "slave". As soon as you will have, you'll see the term either does not apply to citizens or loses all its meaning. I just described what slave in this context mean. You can change it with any kind of workd. Lets even say that I as your lord refers to you as "citizens" instead of slaves. Maybe we could even go further and I (as your lord) give you a small wage and allow you to own private property. When do you become a voluntary "slave"/"citizen"? What are the requirements? No, you did not define the word. You have to define the word before any argument can be made. Your missing the point. Im not asking whether you are a slave or not. Im asking whether you are a voluntary part of this system. The question you could be asking (if you find it nessacary) is how "voluntary" should be defined (because that is what is being discussed as Billtheunderstudy apparently finds that taxes are voluntary as he happily pays his taxes). If you read my post you will see that I never asked whether taxes makes you a slave or not. No, you used the word "slave" for a very clear purpose, and that's why I'm asking you to define it. Regarding the voluntary character of paying taxes, it can be argued that if you don't want to pay taxes you can always move elsewhere, for example to Antarctica. Yeh the reason I used "slave" is purely for a psychological reason (as most people will be more inclined to answer that it isn't voluntary), and the it would be compltely obivous that taxes aren't voluntary as well as a lot of premises in that world were the same as in the real world. But if you can look at this from a purely rational perspective, its compltetely irrational if I use "slave" or not. Just look at that scenario I gave you, and answer whether you are a voluntary part of it or not.
It's funny, you still have not defined "slave". Why can't you?
I already answered.
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On May 03 2012 06:12 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 06:11 Hider wrote:On May 03 2012 06:07 kwizach wrote:On May 03 2012 06:03 Hider wrote:On May 03 2012 05:58 kwizach wrote:On May 03 2012 05:55 Hider wrote:On May 03 2012 05:42 kwizach wrote:On May 03 2012 05:39 Hider wrote:On May 03 2012 05:15 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 03 2012 05:06 Wegandi wrote:
If its willingly, then its not a tax.
That's such a logical fallacy, I'm speechless. I have to pay my taxes anyway, but I could fight to pay less through my opinions and my vote, and support people who want to lower my taxes. Sorry but the government is, as a citizen, my government. The public school are my schools, the hospitals, my hospitals, the police, my police. The police is there to protect me, the hospital to take care of my health if something goes bad, the schools to educate my children. Sorry to still believe in democracy and that the word Republic (Res-publica) are not empty words. Assume this world. I have 20 slaves. You are one of them. I give all the slaves different "benefits". Those who are really lazy/handicaped by nature/doesn't work alot still gets food everyday and can sleep in a bed. Whether this is justified or not is not my question. But lets assume I actually have an election each year. If 11+ slaves agrees to be released I will release them. However for different reasons the slaves dont wanna be released (again the specific reasons on why they do not wanna be released is not up to to debate). However you want to be released, but through this democratic election you can't. Your slave lord (me) gives you the option to different places, but you will always be a slave (just under another lord). My question is: Is this slavery voluntary? Define "slave". As soon as you will have, you'll see the term either does not apply to citizens or loses all its meaning. I just described what slave in this context mean. You can change it with any kind of workd. Lets even say that I as your lord refers to you as "citizens" instead of slaves. Maybe we could even go further and I (as your lord) give you a small wage and allow you to own private property. When do you become a voluntary "slave"/"citizen"? What are the requirements? No, you did not define the word. You have to define the word before any argument can be made. Your missing the point. Im not asking whether you are a slave or not. Im asking whether you are a voluntary part of this system. The question you could be asking (if you find it nessacary) is how "voluntary" should be defined (because that is what is being discussed as Billtheunderstudy apparently finds that taxes are voluntary as he happily pays his taxes). If you read my post you will see that I never asked whether taxes makes you a slave or not. No, you used the word "slave" for a very clear purpose, and that's why I'm asking you to define it. Regarding the voluntary character of paying taxes, it can be argued that if you don't want to pay taxes you can always move elsewhere, for example to Antarctica. Yeh the reason I used "slave" is purely for a psychological reason (as most people will be more inclined to answer that it isn't voluntary), and the it would be compltely obivous that taxes aren't voluntary as well as a lot of premises in that world were the same as in the real world. But if you can look at this from a purely rational perspective, its compltetely irrational if I use "slave" or not. Just look at that scenario I gave you, and answer whether you are a voluntary part of it or not. It's funny, you still have not defined "slave". Why can't you? I already answered.
I already told you 100000 tiems, because its pointless. I am not interested in whether you are a slave or not.
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On May 03 2012 06:13 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 06:12 kwizach wrote:On May 03 2012 06:11 Hider wrote:On May 03 2012 06:07 kwizach wrote:On May 03 2012 06:03 Hider wrote:On May 03 2012 05:58 kwizach wrote:On May 03 2012 05:55 Hider wrote:On May 03 2012 05:42 kwizach wrote:On May 03 2012 05:39 Hider wrote:On May 03 2012 05:15 Biff The Understudy wrote:
[quote]
That's such a logical fallacy, I'm speechless.
I have to pay my taxes anyway, but I could fight to pay less through my opinions and my vote, and support people who want to lower my taxes.
Sorry but the government is, as a citizen, my government. The public school are my schools, the hospitals, my hospitals, the police, my police. The police is there to protect me, the hospital to take care of my health if something goes bad, the schools to educate my children.
Sorry to still believe in democracy and that the word Republic (Res-publica) are not empty words. Assume this world. I have 20 slaves. You are one of them. I give all the slaves different "benefits". Those who are really lazy/handicaped by nature/doesn't work alot still gets food everyday and can sleep in a bed. Whether this is justified or not is not my question. But lets assume I actually have an election each year. If 11+ slaves agrees to be released I will release them. However for different reasons the slaves dont wanna be released (again the specific reasons on why they do not wanna be released is not up to to debate). However you want to be released, but through this democratic election you can't. Your slave lord (me) gives you the option to different places, but you will always be a slave (just under another lord). My question is: Is this slavery voluntary? Define "slave". As soon as you will have, you'll see the term either does not apply to citizens or loses all its meaning. I just described what slave in this context mean. You can change it with any kind of workd. Lets even say that I as your lord refers to you as "citizens" instead of slaves. Maybe we could even go further and I (as your lord) give you a small wage and allow you to own private property. When do you become a voluntary "slave"/"citizen"? What are the requirements? No, you did not define the word. You have to define the word before any argument can be made. Your missing the point. Im not asking whether you are a slave or not. Im asking whether you are a voluntary part of this system. The question you could be asking (if you find it nessacary) is how "voluntary" should be defined (because that is what is being discussed as Billtheunderstudy apparently finds that taxes are voluntary as he happily pays his taxes). If you read my post you will see that I never asked whether taxes makes you a slave or not. No, you used the word "slave" for a very clear purpose, and that's why I'm asking you to define it. Regarding the voluntary character of paying taxes, it can be argued that if you don't want to pay taxes you can always move elsewhere, for example to Antarctica. Yeh the reason I used "slave" is purely for a psychological reason (as most people will be more inclined to answer that it isn't voluntary), and the it would be compltely obivous that taxes aren't voluntary as well as a lot of premises in that world were the same as in the real world. But if you can look at this from a purely rational perspective, its compltetely irrational if I use "slave" or not. Just look at that scenario I gave you, and answer whether you are a voluntary part of it or not. It's funny, you still have not defined "slave". Why can't you? I already answered. I already told you 100000 tiems, because its pointless. I am not interested in whether you are a slave or not.
The term pops up in every single discussion about the state that you participate in. You use it as an argumentative tool. The most elementary necessity for a discussion is to have an agreement on the terms used, otherwise there is no way to understand each other. If you refuse to define slave, please do not use the term ever again in discussions on this site.
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On May 03 2012 06:19 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 06:13 Hider wrote:On May 03 2012 06:12 kwizach wrote:On May 03 2012 06:11 Hider wrote:On May 03 2012 06:07 kwizach wrote:On May 03 2012 06:03 Hider wrote:On May 03 2012 05:58 kwizach wrote:On May 03 2012 05:55 Hider wrote:On May 03 2012 05:42 kwizach wrote:On May 03 2012 05:39 Hider wrote:
[quote]
Assume this world. I have 20 slaves. You are one of them. I give all the slaves different "benefits". Those who are really lazy/handicaped by nature/doesn't work alot still gets food everyday and can sleep in a bed. Whether this is justified or not is not my question.
But lets assume I actually have an election each year. If 11+ slaves agrees to be released I will release them. However for different reasons the slaves dont wanna be released (again the specific reasons on why they do not wanna be released is not up to to debate).
However you want to be released, but through this democratic election you can't. Your slave lord (me) gives you the option to different places, but you will always be a slave (just under another lord). My question is: Is this slavery voluntary? Define "slave". As soon as you will have, you'll see the term either does not apply to citizens or loses all its meaning. I just described what slave in this context mean. You can change it with any kind of workd. Lets even say that I as your lord refers to you as "citizens" instead of slaves. Maybe we could even go further and I (as your lord) give you a small wage and allow you to own private property. When do you become a voluntary "slave"/"citizen"? What are the requirements? No, you did not define the word. You have to define the word before any argument can be made. Your missing the point. Im not asking whether you are a slave or not. Im asking whether you are a voluntary part of this system. The question you could be asking (if you find it nessacary) is how "voluntary" should be defined (because that is what is being discussed as Billtheunderstudy apparently finds that taxes are voluntary as he happily pays his taxes). If you read my post you will see that I never asked whether taxes makes you a slave or not. No, you used the word "slave" for a very clear purpose, and that's why I'm asking you to define it. Regarding the voluntary character of paying taxes, it can be argued that if you don't want to pay taxes you can always move elsewhere, for example to Antarctica. Yeh the reason I used "slave" is purely for a psychological reason (as most people will be more inclined to answer that it isn't voluntary), and the it would be compltely obivous that taxes aren't voluntary as well as a lot of premises in that world were the same as in the real world. But if you can look at this from a purely rational perspective, its compltetely irrational if I use "slave" or not. Just look at that scenario I gave you, and answer whether you are a voluntary part of it or not. It's funny, you still have not defined "slave". Why can't you? I already answered. I already told you 100000 tiems, because its pointless. I am not interested in whether you are a slave or not. The term pops up in every single discussion about the state that you participate in. You use it as an argumentative tool. The most elementary necessity for a discussion is to have an agreement on the terms used, otherwise there is no way to understand each other. If you refuse to define slave, please do not use the term ever again in discussions on this site.
Yes but we are not discussing the term slave.
I think btw you missed my editted post:
"Regarding moving away, I actually gave the option of one moving to other "slave lords".
But does taxes become voluntary if one has the oppurtunity to move to another place where one isn't going to be taxed, even though there is no thereotical way of living a decent life?"
EDIT: I actually never use the word slave lol. I think you must be mistaken me.
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Lol at the end. Hollande just saying he would be an anti-Sarkozy... I don't like Sarkozy at all, but I dislike Hollande even more now.
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"Moi président de la république"
We understood Hollande :D
We ask him about himself, he talks about Sarkozy...
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What surprises me is that it's Holland who spoke over Sarkozy most of the time.
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That's one thing about Hollande, he seems to prefer pointing out problems that Sarkozy caused rather than proposing something solutions. Ad hominids have their place for sure, in this kind of debate, but he's being excessive. He's really touchy too. :/
There are a lot of moments during this debate where I was cringing because Hollande was completely cutting off Sarkozy rather than letting him speak. sigh w/E
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On May 03 2012 06:21 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 06:19 kwizach wrote:On May 03 2012 06:13 Hider wrote:On May 03 2012 06:12 kwizach wrote:On May 03 2012 06:11 Hider wrote:On May 03 2012 06:07 kwizach wrote:On May 03 2012 06:03 Hider wrote:On May 03 2012 05:58 kwizach wrote:On May 03 2012 05:55 Hider wrote:On May 03 2012 05:42 kwizach wrote:
[quote]
Define "slave". As soon as you will have, you'll see the term either does not apply to citizens or loses all its meaning. I just described what slave in this context mean. You can change it with any kind of workd. Lets even say that I as your lord refers to you as "citizens" instead of slaves. Maybe we could even go further and I (as your lord) give you a small wage and allow you to own private property. When do you become a voluntary "slave"/"citizen"? What are the requirements? No, you did not define the word. You have to define the word before any argument can be made. Your missing the point. Im not asking whether you are a slave or not. Im asking whether you are a voluntary part of this system. The question you could be asking (if you find it nessacary) is how "voluntary" should be defined (because that is what is being discussed as Billtheunderstudy apparently finds that taxes are voluntary as he happily pays his taxes). If you read my post you will see that I never asked whether taxes makes you a slave or not. No, you used the word "slave" for a very clear purpose, and that's why I'm asking you to define it. Regarding the voluntary character of paying taxes, it can be argued that if you don't want to pay taxes you can always move elsewhere, for example to Antarctica. Yeh the reason I used "slave" is purely for a psychological reason (as most people will be more inclined to answer that it isn't voluntary), and the it would be compltely obivous that taxes aren't voluntary as well as a lot of premises in that world were the same as in the real world. But if you can look at this from a purely rational perspective, its compltetely irrational if I use "slave" or not. Just look at that scenario I gave you, and answer whether you are a voluntary part of it or not. It's funny, you still have not defined "slave". Why can't you? I already answered. I already told you 100000 tiems, because its pointless. I am not interested in whether you are a slave or not. The term pops up in every single discussion about the state that you participate in. You use it as an argumentative tool. The most elementary necessity for a discussion is to have an agreement on the terms used, otherwise there is no way to understand each other. If you refuse to define slave, please do not use the term ever again in discussions on this site. Yes but we are not discussing the term slave. I think btw you missed my editted post: "Regarding moving away, I actually gave the option of one moving to other "slave lords". But does taxes become voluntary if one has the oppurtunity to move to another place where one isn't going to be taxed, even though there is no thereotical way of living a decent life?" EDIT: I actually never use the word slave lol. I think you must be mistaken me.
I distinctively remember you and Wegandi using the term in a discussion in the "Republican nominations" thread.
To answer your question - yes. We do not have an infinite amount of possibilities regarding the environment we can live in. Replace for example "taxes" by "getting looked at by other people". Imagine I want to live in a society where I can have as high a standard a living as I have now, but without anyone EVER looking at me, even by accident. Is that possible? No. I could choose to move to a place where nobody will ever see me, but chances are that my standards of living won't be as high as they are now.
The bottom-line is that there are numerous choices underlying you living in a society, and one of these choices is acknowledging the existence of taxes and the requirement to pay them. Again, if the grass on the other side looks greener to you, nobody's preventing you from leaving to go live where there are no taxes, like Antarctica.
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EPT
