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On March 15 2012 07:37 XiGua wrote:
I see League of Legends very much like I see WoW.
It's very rewarding by playing a lot of games. It doesn't matter if you win or lose because you still get IP and EXP. Heroes and Runes + Skill Trees and lvl system makes it very easy lure players to grind games. I remember some of my friends grinding "vs bots" games to get fast IP.
They also have a YouTube Channel. I feel that Blizzard needs to engage more with the community, it's the age of CASUALS. Time to get some DLC, skins, portraits etc. for a currency. Get the casual market back. But if people don't want this to happen, then just let League of Legends be #1. It doesn't matter, more people do enjoy the "easier" game, for example my 14 year old sister is lvl 30 and have like ELO 1,6k.
Having lvl 30 is a given in lol, it's the elo that is the actual ladder. And 1k6 elo is quite good, I'm sure you would not attain it that easily.
On March 15 2012 07:39 Payo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 07:36 Shikyo wrote:On March 15 2012 07:34 Payo wrote:On March 15 2012 07:23 gbooo wrote:On March 15 2012 07:19 Payo wrote:
Basically, every nub can play LoL and win gamez when for Sc2 yu need some actuall skill&knowledge if yu want to be atleast decent. The end. You do realize you play against other people right? Its not against bots not against an environment. Do you not realize that if its easy for its easy for your opponents? And that's what makes it harder. Geez too hard of a concept too grasp for some? Please do start playing and see how easy it really is to win. I'm sure you'll get have a 100% winrate I've played LoL. After 20games in total, i won 17 of them and it was like taking candy from a baby. After that i stopped b'cuz it was just too much of a joke.+It's not even close to being balanced. Hey that's funny, I can win at the bottom of the bronze league using just my mouse as well. And even win 20 out of 20 instead of just 17. If you would've never played any RTS game and only played FPS games before Sc2, you'd NEVER ever win 20games in a row, not even from bottom bronze(when i came in Sc2 from CoD stuff, i had maybe 40apm). Well, i've never played any game that would be even close to being similiar to LoL, yet still i managed to win that many games.
Absolutly false. You start in lol against people who are either smurf or just new to the game. Weither you have played or not a moba style of game before, you still have a better usage of the keyboard and the mouse.
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On March 15 2012 07:34 Payo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 07:23 gbooo wrote:On March 15 2012 07:19 Payo wrote:
Basically, every nub can play LoL and win gamez when for Sc2 yu need some actuall skill&knowledge if yu want to be atleast decent. The end. You do realize you play against other people right? Its not against bots not against an environment. Do you not realize that if its easy for its easy for your opponents? And that's what makes it harder. Geez too hard of a concept too grasp for some? Please do start playing and see how easy it really is to win. I'm sure you'll get have a 100% winrate I've played LoL. After 20games in total, i won 17 of them and it was like taking candy from a baby. After that i stopped b'cuz it was just too much of a joke.+It's not even close to being balanced.
Must been real challenge vs those lvl 1-10s. This one here is the real deal, I think CLG should recruit him.
I started acc on NA server (~240 ping), in my first match I went 36-1, made 2 people ragequit and forced a surrender at 20 mins. 1 death to turret, because I miss flashed due to ping. Real competetive game at lvl 1 mang, maybe I should be recruited by CLG mmmm.
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On March 15 2012 07:39 Payo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 07:36 Shikyo wrote:On March 15 2012 07:34 Payo wrote:On March 15 2012 07:23 gbooo wrote:On March 15 2012 07:19 Payo wrote:
Basically, every nub can play LoL and win gamez when for Sc2 yu need some actuall skill&knowledge if yu want to be atleast decent. The end. You do realize you play against other people right? Its not against bots not against an environment. Do you not realize that if its easy for its easy for your opponents? And that's what makes it harder. Geez too hard of a concept too grasp for some? Please do start playing and see how easy it really is to win. I'm sure you'll get have a 100% winrate I've played LoL. After 20games in total, i won 17 of them and it was like taking candy from a baby. After that i stopped b'cuz it was just too much of a joke.+It's not even close to being balanced. Hey that's funny, I can win at the bottom of the bronze league using just my mouse as well. And even win 20 out of 20 instead of just 17. If you would've never played any RTS game and only played FPS games before Sc2, you'd NEVER ever win 20games in a row, not even from bottom bronze(when i came in Sc2 from CoD stuff, i had maybe 40apm). Well, i've never played any game that would be even close to being similiar to LoL, yet still i managed to win that many games.
Eh, I wouldn't know about myself as I easily went 5-0 in placement, but my friend who had never played a single game of RTS before placed in Silver league and went on to become diamond in about 80 games after which he quit because the game was too boring. And he'd only played MMORPGs before that.
(Don't make bullshit statements please)
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On March 15 2012 07:01 Dark_Chill wrote:
Can someone please tell me how LoL is less skillful than Dota2. All I've seen so far is "denying makes the game so HARDCORE", while no one seems to care to look at everything LoL has that Dota2 does not. Couple that with the fact that denying is not exactly all that hard to do, and what are you left with? Dota2 fans, come forth now and tell me, without using any insults, what makes Dota2 such a hardcore game while LoL is casual, easy game.
the denying thing is all you want to hear. spend a few minutes googling past discussions on other boards/within other communities, or better yet, try your hand at dota or dota 2 for an extended amount of time. the latter is what will give you the best insight, btw.
i find lol incredibly boring to watch. i'd play it over any other moba, even with having access to dota 2 atm, but i'd watch dota 2, street fighter, quake, hon, vanilla dota, etc. over lol if i had to choose. that's really my only problem with it getting popular. i absolutely hate watching that game and find it very hard to relate to those that like to watch it. aAa and clg played each other for 20 minutes with the score being 2-3 in one game at iem. it seems often that games that are over take an extra 10 minutes to end as well with how safe the winning team is forced to play. the ganks are extremely boring to me (usually totally dependent on flash cooldown and a successful gank often consists of a slow beatdown from a red jungler chasing someone from one end of a lane to another).
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On March 15 2012 07:39 Payo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 07:36 Shikyo wrote:On March 15 2012 07:34 Payo wrote:On March 15 2012 07:23 gbooo wrote:On March 15 2012 07:19 Payo wrote:
Basically, every nub can play LoL and win gamez when for Sc2 yu need some actuall skill&knowledge if yu want to be atleast decent. The end. You do realize you play against other people right? Its not against bots not against an environment. Do you not realize that if its easy for its easy for your opponents? And that's what makes it harder. Geez too hard of a concept too grasp for some? Please do start playing and see how easy it really is to win. I'm sure you'll get have a 100% winrate I've played LoL. After 20games in total, i won 17 of them and it was like taking candy from a baby. After that i stopped b'cuz it was just too much of a joke.+It's not even close to being balanced. Hey that's funny, I can win at the bottom of the bronze league using just my mouse as well. And even win 20 out of 20 instead of just 17. If you would've never played any RTS game and only played FPS games before Sc2, you'd NEVER ever win 20games in a row, not even from bottom bronze(when i came in Sc2 from CoD stuff, i had maybe 40apm). Well, i've never played any game that would be even close to being similiar to LoL, yet still i managed to win that many games.
The same goes for LoL. Also SC2 was my first rts and I got placed gold in beta, made it to platinum.
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I wouldnt be surprised at winning games at low level in LoL.
Its full of people smurfing or new players to the game, its really a hit or miss if you get retards or good people
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On March 15 2012 07:39 Payo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 07:36 Shikyo wrote:On March 15 2012 07:34 Payo wrote:On March 15 2012 07:23 gbooo wrote:On March 15 2012 07:19 Payo wrote:
Basically, every nub can play LoL and win gamez when for Sc2 yu need some actuall skill&knowledge if yu want to be atleast decent. The end. You do realize you play against other people right? Its not against bots not against an environment. Do you not realize that if its easy for its easy for your opponents? And that's what makes it harder. Geez too hard of a concept too grasp for some? Please do start playing and see how easy it really is to win. I'm sure you'll get have a 100% winrate I've played LoL. After 20games in total, i won 17 of them and it was like taking candy from a baby. After that i stopped b'cuz it was just too much of a joke.+It's not even close to being balanced. Hey that's funny, I can win at the bottom of the bronze league using just my mouse as well. And even win 20 out of 20 instead of just 17. If you would've never played any RTS game and only played FPS games before Sc2, you'd NEVER ever win 20games in a row, not even from bottom bronze(when i came in Sc2 from CoD stuff, i had maybe 40apm). Well, i've never played any game that would be even close to being similiar to LoL, yet still i managed to win that many games.
You're on a starcraft forum. The moba genre was born from an RTS. You've probably also played Diablo1/2, maybe torchlight, etc. Just because you've never played specifically a moba before LoL doesn't mean you wouldn't feel right at home with the control scheme. Then it took you what, a few minutes to learn the rules and how to win the match?
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A lot of these comments I feel are just blatant lies, but I won't bother to point them out.
For me, Dota is only superficially harder than LoL. There are aspects of it that makes the game more punishing and mechanically demanding, but none of which exactly equate it to being a better competitive game. At the end of the day, your competition is OTHER PEOPLE, which all play the same game.
No one would agree that soccer would be a better sport if they added patches of ice and spikes randomly throughout the field, even though it would certainly add more difficulty and complexity (awesome that may be).
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE dota. I love how powerful each hero feels compared to LoL. If Dota 2 overtakes LoL, I wouldn't be one bit sad. However, none of that is a good reason to consider one game more competitive than another. The only thing that determines how competitive a game is, is your competitors, not the inherent mechanics of the game.
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On March 15 2012 05:47 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 05:44 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:On March 15 2012 05:35 Zergneedsfood wrote:On March 15 2012 05:30 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:On March 15 2012 05:21 Zergneedsfood wrote:On March 15 2012 05:17 Bjoernzor wrote:On March 15 2012 05:04 Zergneedsfood wrote:On March 15 2012 05:01 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:
Why do people keep trying to draw parallels between the SC:BW--> SC2/ SC2-->LoL relationship? Because it's really not a parallel between the two. First, BW and SC2 share all of the same advantages as a spectator game, compared to LoL that I mentioned in my previous post (more intuitive conflict scenario, tangibly visual skill and strategy display, and better obs capacity when its viewing 2 players versus viewing 10 separate players and champions). Second, although I'm a SC2 fan, I'll freely admit that SC:BW has a higher skill ceiling and is more mechanically demanding: however, the mechanics gap between SC2 and BW is far, far smaller than the mechanics gap between SC2 and LoL. Both require clicking. Both require pressing few keys. Both require looking at the minimap. Both (theoretically) require you keep your money low. One you receive minerals and you use it. The other you fight for gold and you use it. Fighting for gold is harder than watching your workers mine while frantically box clicking them. I'm failing to see the difference. Yeah, why not draw the difference between diving a car and LoL. Both require hand movements Both require decision making Both require looking at the minimap (mirror) Both require resource collection and useage (filling up the gas) I fail to see the difference. LoL players are apparently automatically amazing drivers! I know you are probably trolling based on your earlier posts in the thread as well, but hey.... Woah, woah, woah. Hold your horses right there. Clearly not every LoL player is good, so not every LoL player is an amazing driver. Stop making huge overarching assertions please. That's not what this thread is about. On March 15 2012 05:16 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:On March 15 2012 05:04 Zergneedsfood wrote:On March 15 2012 05:01 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:
Why do people keep trying to draw parallels between the SC:BW--> SC2/ SC2-->LoL relationship? Because it's really not a parallel between the two. First, BW and SC2 share all of the same advantages as a spectator game, compared to LoL that I mentioned in my previous post (more intuitive conflict scenario, tangibly visual skill and strategy display, and better obs capacity when its viewing 2 players versus viewing 10 separate players and champions). Second, although I'm a SC2 fan, I'll freely admit that SC:BW has a higher skill ceiling and is more mechanically demanding: however, the mechanics gap between SC2 and BW is far, far smaller than the mechanics gap between SC2 and LoL. Both require clicking. Both require pressing few keys. Both require looking at the minimap. Both (theoretically) require you keep your money low. One you receive minerals and you use it. The other you fight for gold and you use it. Fighting for gold is harder than watching your workers mine while frantically box clicking them. I'm failing to see the difference. One requires far more accurate, frequent, and faster clicking of keys. And last-shotting is a very simple matter of timing. Now, I think most of this debate about "LoL vs. SC2" in terms of difficulty is different, as it is one of skill which is not directly correspondent to mechanics. Skill is some vague, arbtirary notion of innate easiness with which a person grasps a task, and LoL is very different with respect to the skills involved, such as teamwork and timing, whereas SC/SC2 is much more multi-task/speed oriented. For example, WC3 may be much less "mechanically" demanding than SC2, since its focused on a much narrower scope of units, but that doesn't mean that WC3 takes less skill, since many WC3 pros have been successful in SC2. Of course, being TL, it's a pretty general norm that mechanics are valued as a primary element of skill, and in light of this criterion, I'm just pointing out the logical flaw in those haughty BW posts. So what you're saying is skill is an ambiguous measurement and therefore people need to stop bitching about the game being a legitimate e-sport in Korea. Skill is only one facet of a game, and an entirely different discussion. I would willingly argue that mechanics is more important in representing "gaming skill" than other skills involved in LoL, but that's neither here nor there because this thread is about LoL as an esport, not LoL merely as a test of skill. I've named numerous other concerns with LoL as the frontrunner of esports: On March 15 2012 05:01 LlamaNamedOsama wrote: In my view, I think it's problematic that a game like LoL would be the frontrunner of e-sports because it has less appeal to those outside of gaming. Sure, LoL has a larger casual player fanbase, but the credibility of esports in expansion is its ability to reach beyond the player-base into the broader mainstream population. Starcraft is just better as a spectator sport. Many LoL players I know readily acknowledge that it's not really interesting to watch. For one, the basic concept of two armies, resources, and destruction of opposing armies in SC2 is incredibly intuitive, whereas the AOS (or MOBA, but I refer the old WC3 terminology :3) notion of "lanes" of automatically spawning creep, towers, and champions is not so intuitive. Second, Starcraft is just better at visually representing skill. Whether it is an incredibly marine split, or even the sheer speed of FPVODs, it is much more distinguishable to the ordinary person. Third, LoL encounters the same issues of CS in its 5v5 formatting, where its difficult to truly observe all the happenings in a game where there are often 10 multiple different instances of players that compose the overall game. Another issue with LoL as a spectator sport that I didn't include in the post at that time is the matter of professionalism: as mentioned here, LoL has a problem with professionalism. It's this very problem that has caused my brother, an avid LoL player who watches stream, to adopt a negative view of esports with little legitimacy in the real world, as a bunch of loser nerds with zero social skills because of their inability to articulate and present themselves in a professional manner. Lack of professionalism in an e-sport? Where have I seen that recently...? Nah, definitely not in SC2. As we all know, streams in SC2 are so civil. There's not a single streamer that acts out of line, nor is there a single competitor that has ever caused an uproar in the community that makes people question the professionalism that goes into such a fine e-sport like SC2. Yeah, I totally get what you're saying. All LoL streamers give off this terrible vibe that everyone participating in e-sports is an inarticulate geek. All the people who stream all the time, trying to teach their viewers, showcase their play, and have fun, are all bad examples that's keeping e-sports from developing. No, you're not getting what I'm saying. You clearly did not check the linked thread, where a person with high exposure to both scenes mentioned that comparatively, LoL is lacking in professionalism. You clearly did not understand my statement when I said that this is the impression that my brother received, not an absolute statement categorizing LoL streamers. This simply is demonstrating the consequence of a lack of professionalism and its negative impact on esports, not a claim that all LoL streamers had this lack of professionalism. The link is basically you using your brother's experience as a springboard to make the large overarching claim that LoL lacks professionalism, without ever mentioning who he watches. The word "comparatively" was never included in the link. Okay. Let me try. I only watch Sayle's stream. Therefore, I've come out of my BW streams thinking that all BW is fine and dandy. There's nothing wrong with the scene. kkzzz Oh! And I also watch KawaiiRice's stream. Therefore, every SC2 player must play Osu and love Nana Mizuki. w00t
People apparently have the inability to distinguish the consequence of something from the actual point. No, I am not using my brother's experience to make a claim about LoL lacking professionalism: to again repeat myself quite explicitly, my brother is an example of what happens if there is an encounter with a lack of professionalism. To be clear, my brother is not the poster of that thread. That poster is offering a comprehensive look at both scenes. Honestly, anyone who's trying to deny the fact that LoL is more unprofessional needs a reality check.
And anyone who knows how to read in context knows that the link is inherently making a comparative judgment between the levels of professionalism in Sc2 and LoL. If it's not explicit enough, this line makes it all too painfully obvious: LoL needs a djWheat or Day9, someone willing to take responsibility for the community and grow the game that way and show some class
Yes, both games will obviously have their bad apples, but LoL does not have any Day9-level characters to lead and project a responsible face for the community, and they have not established norms of proper behavior - as the EG incident shows, that norm is all too present in SC2.
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On March 15 2012 07:02 1sz2sz3sz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 07:01 Dark_Chill wrote:
Can someone please tell me how LoL is less skillful than Dota2. All I've seen so far is "denying makes the game so HARDCORE", while no one seems to care to look at everything LoL has that Dota2 does not. Couple that with the fact that denying is not exactly all that hard to do, and what are you left with? Dota2 fans, come forth now and tell me, without using any insults, what makes Dota2 such a hardcore game while LoL is casual, easy game. You dont lose gold on death in LoL So that means in Dota2 you have to rice for an hour straight before anything happens (see that dota2 tournament, first game was over 90 minutes long)
oh boy, please dont jump that quickly on wrong conclusions :-D. watch games of navi, their games usually end pretty fast as they have a pushheavy setup, they rarely ever pick hardcarrys.
dota (or in that matter dota2 aswell) is "harder" because your own and your team's mistakes mean consequences. consequences you dont have in lol.
if you die you loose gold. a lot of gold. if you dont lasthit properly, you dont just loose even more gold, you also loose exp (as your opponent will deny his creeps). thus you will be behind in levels aswell as in farm. towers aren't that strong. they are not the extreme saftey net they are in lol. with a significant advantage you can dare to actually tower-dive someone in dota. something you rarely wanna do in lol. they also die a lot faster, so leaving one lane unoccupied for a too long timespan will cause your towers to be freaking down.
dota's s skillsets are also a lot different to lol. league has a lot of soft-cc, mostly slows and really short stuns and a direct damage skillshot. most of them are spamable and dotn cost that much mana, can even be used to farm creeps. using a spell in dota however is a big risk early game, as it will drain the majority of your mana. on the other hand, most of the dota skills are also way more hard hitting. stun durations are longer, hex durations are longer, slows are more brutal. some heroes as lion or rhasta will solely be focussed around cc and just keep people out of the fight.
especially lategame one wrong step can cost you the game. oh, your carry overextended a bit and died? well good for us, now he is dead for 80 seconds and we will just push the crap out of you and get your rax.
rax (inhibitors?) dont respawn in dota btw, so its a huge deal if you loose em. usually lategame you will just have 1 hero whos able to carry your team. not several ones. in lategame your skills get more and more irrellevant and instead the base damage aswell as attack speed will take over.
oh yea, you also dont have the "get out of jail for free card" in dota (aka flash in lol).
theres so much more to go into why dota is a "deeper" and "harder" game as lol is, as e.g. a always changing metagame in dota compared to a pretty static metagame in lol (1 top, 1 jungle, 1 mid, 2 bot)
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Its pretty sad how much money is being dumped into a game that takes the smallest amount of intelligence to play at a high level.
User was warned for this post
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in dota one mistake late game doesnt actually cause an instant loss, most of the time.
if the person has buyback, or you lose a support and you have glyph/strong counterpush, you will not out and out lose.
yes you will take a huge hit. you lose money, time, and map control. you may lose a roshan (aegis or aegis + cheese). but in league of legends you probably just lost the whole game.
I consider losing a team fight very lopsidedly, or more than one hero getting caught by a team, to be more than one mistake.
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On March 15 2012 07:57 allerion wrote:
Its pretty sad how much money is being dumped into a game that takes the smallest amount of intelligence to play at a high level.
You mad that Blizzard doesnt do the same for their own game, but instead takes 50% ad revenue over tournaments with 5k prize pool?
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i find all the comments on how bad LoL is, only fit for casuals etc. rather foolish, not for any attachment i have with the game, as i only play it occasionally to make my gf happy, however, it clearly isnt for casuals if the koreans are playing it so often, thats hardly casual, and if its the worst moba, and having so many dedicated fans in korea makes for good marketing, its very sensible really.
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On March 15 2012 07:34 Payo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 07:23 gbooo wrote:On March 15 2012 07:19 Payo wrote:
Basically, every nub can play LoL and win gamez when for Sc2 yu need some actuall skill&knowledge if yu want to be atleast decent. The end. You do realize you play against other people right? Its not against bots not against an environment. Do you not realize that if its easy for its easy for your opponents? And that's what makes it harder. Geez too hard of a concept too grasp for some? Please do start playing and see how easy it really is to win. I'm sure you'll get have a 100% winrate I've played LoL. After 20games in total, i won 17 of them and it was like taking candy from a baby. After that i stopped b'cuz it was just too much of a joke.+It's not even close to being balanced.
LOL sure you did. Whats your account name and what server? You should round up some friends and go to Korea, too pro.
But hey I won all more practice games on SC2, I'm pro too.
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United States5162 Posts
I find it halarious that some SC2 fans hate on LoL for being 'easy' and 'casual'. You can cut the irony with a knife.
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On March 14 2012 20:04 NeonFlare wrote:
Is the game still stuck on the single viable lane composition?
not exactly
in ranked 5's you can pull off all sorts of crazy shit with coordination and planning, but in solo queue everyone just sticks to the same old lane comps for ease of champ selection and communication with random players on your team
for example, pro teams were running bruiser bottom lanes or early-game double jungle at the most recent IEM with varying degrees of success
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On March 15 2012 07:59 1sz2sz3sz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 07:57 allerion wrote:
Its pretty sad how much money is being dumped into a game that takes the smallest amount of intelligence to play at a high level. You mad that Blizzard doesnt do the same for their own game, but instead takes 50% ad revenue over tournaments with 5k prize pool?
no not mad, because i don't feel the company who invested money into making the game needs to be the only reason why it's surviving as a 'competitive game', sponsors, and the community fund sc2 because that's the way it worked in bw, and because it's sustainable that way.
and while i'm spreading misinformation about LoL's numbers (and admitted i'm wrong), would you care to prove to me about this 50% ad revenue thing other than speculation?
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Funny how people are still making a big deal out of this.
LoL>SC2 in korea. By far
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On March 15 2012 07:49 Juicyfruit wrote:
A lot of these comments I feel are just blatant lies, but I won't bother to point them out.
For me, Dota is only superficially harder than LoL. There are aspects of it that makes the game more punishing and mechanically demanding, but none of which exactly equate it to being a better competitive game. At the end of the day, your competition is OTHER PEOPLE, which all play the same game.
No one would agree that soccer would be a better sport if they added patches of ice and spikes randomly throughout the field, even though it would certainly add more difficulty and complexity (awesome that may be).
dota is not superficially harder than lol. i would argue that it is harder. you even say that it is harder in the post im quoting. there's more infromation to absorb, the map's design requires mastery of it (many, many more side paths along with the ability to exploit terrain differences), the neutral runes are harder to control, characters vary much more in terms of range, attack animations, attack speeds, etc (which are all more important because of last hitting and denying). bad decisions are punished more immediately in dota than lol. it is easy to use your mana poorly and that can push you out of a lane by itself. teleporting and buying back offer important choices to players that don't really exist in lol. i could go on with things that i feel make dota/dota 2 the harder game.
you don't think difficulty makes for a more competitive game, but i do. i think largely we view competitive activities because of how good a small % of the population can be at something that is otherwise difficult for us. im not saying lol is not competitive enough to be appreciated, but i cannot see how competition and difficulty are separate.
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EPT
