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On August 30 2018 23:02 GoTuNk! wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2018 22:55 farvacola wrote:
Given that the NRA itself has been known to open its meetings with prayers that include language like "Jesus loves me and my guns," I think your brand of availibity heuristics needs some work gotunks. You mean the group of safest gun users opens meeting with prayers? God this is terrible. Stop arguing in bad faith. Praying is not the same as saying that Jesus would walk around carrying a gun which is just stupid. (And unimportant?)
Presuming that NRA are the safest group of gun users, there's no need to bring Christianity to a group meeting. Yes it is terrible. Otherwise I presume you would be ok with opening NRA meeting with Muslim prayers. Since the original point is the bizarre mixing of god and guns, your response acknowledging that they do so, whilst vehemently denying it at the same time says it all really.
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The answer is simple, liking guns ownership to Christianity is a way to engrain guns into the local culture. Doing that makes people extra resistant to gun laws, since they view it as an attack no their culture. They do not want people like my grandfather, who saw the .22 rifle as a teaching tool for his children and grandchildren, but had zero problems locking it up in a lockbox. They want people deeply invested in carrying their personal, customized fire arm as a personal statement.
Making people personally invested in a commercial product is a very effective way to market something. Making that product part of their identity makes them loyal to the commercial brand. Look at how sports teams market themselves. Or video games and leaning into the concept of the “Gamer” demographic. Comic books and "nerd culture". Gun culture is just another version of that style of creating a marketing demographic.
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On August 30 2018 23:10 farvacola wrote:
Mixing the message of Christ with the political issue of gun control is a vulgar, fairly common thing in this country, and as a Christian myself, I think the ease with which you wave away just how often this shit occurs amounts to bad faith far more readily than my verbatim recounting of what I've encountered when arguing with other self-proclaimed Christians. You're making this about anti-religion when pro-religion provides criticism just as readily. Fundies in the US distort the Bible's message routinely, and as JimmiC pointed out in the post that started this, gun control is yet another place where this shitty tack rears its head. This politics-masquerading-as-religion thing, no matter its form, is very important.
Well if you want to have an honest discussion you should start by speaking clearly and not using sarcasm, and then complaining.
User was warned for this post.
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I have read farvacola’s post three times now and I’m not sure where he was being sarcastic. And his post is very clear.
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On August 30 2018 23:29 GoTuNk! wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2018 23:10 farvacola wrote:
Mixing the message of Christ with the political issue of gun control is a vulgar, fairly common thing in this country, and as a Christian myself, I think the ease with which you wave away just how often this shit occurs amounts to bad faith far more readily than my verbatim recounting of what I've encountered when arguing with other self-proclaimed Christians. You're making this about anti-religion when pro-religion provides criticism just as readily. Fundies in the US distort the Bible's message routinely, and as JimmiC pointed out in the post that started this, gun control is yet another place where this shitty tack rears its head. This politics-masquerading-as-religion thing, no matter its form, is very important. Well if you want to have an honest discussion you should start by speaking clearly and not using sarcasm, and then complaining.
Your tone sucks. Go back and reread his points so that YOU can understand whats happening.
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On August 30 2018 22:15 JimmiC wrote:
Questions: When did gun ownership and Christianity get so intertwined in the states? It is not so in other countries, if anything it is the opposite. Has it always been this way? Happened over time? One watershed moment?
Jesus and his whole forgiveness and love thing doesn't seem to fit. The pre Jesus stuff I sort of get but since Christianity focuses on the latter it is confusing to me.
Ignoring some of the more ridiculous answers to this question, I think it's just happenstance. Rural people tend to be more pro guns for a variety of reasons, a lot of them to do with hunting and farming, while rural people also tend to just be more religious. Sure it doesn't really go hand in hand if you stop to think about it, but that has never really been the strong suit of religion to begin with.
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On August 30 2018 22:15 JimmiC wrote:
Questions: When did gun ownership and Christianity get so intertwined in the states? It is not so in other countries, if anything it is the opposite. Has it always been this way? Happened over time? One watershed moment?
Jesus and his whole forgiveness and love thing doesn't seem to fit. The pre Jesus stuff I sort of get but since Christianity focuses on the latter it is confusing to me.
I don't have any direct data; as a guess I'd say it's partly a result of them both being aligned with the same political party for a long period of time (or at least a certain large subset of christians are, there are so many different branches of course).
there's more of a holy war feeling amongst some christians here than you'd find in many places in europe. And when you have a holy war viewpoint, guns make sense to go along with it.
American christianity is also one of major places for prosperity gospel, which also really doesn't fit with what jesus actually said. so having stuff that doesn't fit well what jesus said would be pretty normal.
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On August 31 2018 00:16 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2018 00:11 Excludos wrote:On August 30 2018 22:15 JimmiC wrote:
Questions: When did gun ownership and Christianity get so intertwined in the states? It is not so in other countries, if anything it is the opposite. Has it always been this way? Happened over time? One watershed moment?
Jesus and his whole forgiveness and love thing doesn't seem to fit. The pre Jesus stuff I sort of get but since Christianity focuses on the latter it is confusing to me. Ignoring some of the more ridiculous answers to this question, I think it's just happenstance. Rural people tend to be more pro guns for a variety of reasons, a lot of them to do with hunting and farming, while rural people also tend to just be more religious. Sure it doesn't really go hand in hand if you stop to think about it, but that has never really been the strong suit of religion to begin with. I see that connection, but most people in the states are not looking to take away rural long, bolt.action, barrel rifles and shot guns. Its hand guns and automatics that people want gone. Also, ill try to find where I read it, but in cities there is still a large christian pro all guns connection.
Today it’s handguns and semi auto rifles, yesterday your handguns were safe and only AR-15 owners had to fear.
At least that’s how I interpret “automatics” since true automatics are effectively banned.
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I don’t think anything about hand guns has changed. They are still the most likely to cause injury and to be used in violent crime.
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On August 31 2018 00:51 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2018 00:31 Danglars wrote:On August 31 2018 00:16 JimmiC wrote:On August 31 2018 00:11 Excludos wrote:On August 30 2018 22:15 JimmiC wrote:
Questions: When did gun ownership and Christianity get so intertwined in the states? It is not so in other countries, if anything it is the opposite. Has it always been this way? Happened over time? One watershed moment?
Jesus and his whole forgiveness and love thing doesn't seem to fit. The pre Jesus stuff I sort of get but since Christianity focuses on the latter it is confusing to me. Ignoring some of the more ridiculous answers to this question, I think it's just happenstance. Rural people tend to be more pro guns for a variety of reasons, a lot of them to do with hunting and farming, while rural people also tend to just be more religious. Sure it doesn't really go hand in hand if you stop to think about it, but that has never really been the strong suit of religion to begin with. I see that connection, but most people in the states are not looking to take away rural long, bolt.action, barrel rifles and shot guns. Its hand guns and automatics that people want gone. Also, ill try to find where I read it, but in cities there is still a large christian pro all guns connection. Today it’s handguns and semi auto rifles, yesterday your handguns were safe and only AR-15 owners had to fear. At least that’s how I interpret “automatics” since true automatics are effectively banned. So ot is a slippery slope argument?
No, not really. Gun control activists are divided on what’s next. You just told me that you’re (or “people”) are only coming for hand guns and automatics. Others tell me they’re only up in arms about AR-15. Others all guns. I think we’re already at the point where gun control activists create the fear that your favored home defense or around-town carry weapon is in the cross-sights, if you’ll pardon the pun. We’re already there.
I honestly don’t know if it’s ignorance or disingenuousness at this point.
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Did you really expect a unified opinion on gun control?
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On August 31 2018 01:12 Plansix wrote:
Did you really expect a unified opinion on gun control?
If you’re going around saying what “people” think, then something approximating that, of course.
If you admit there is no concensus (aside from shock at school shootings and black rifles look scary), then I have very little problem. I’ll advocate what I like among gun control legislation, and you advocate for what you like.
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On August 31 2018 01:26 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2018 01:04 Danglars wrote:On August 31 2018 00:51 JimmiC wrote:On August 31 2018 00:31 Danglars wrote:On August 31 2018 00:16 JimmiC wrote:On August 31 2018 00:11 Excludos wrote:On August 30 2018 22:15 JimmiC wrote:
Questions: When did gun ownership and Christianity get so intertwined in the states? It is not so in other countries, if anything it is the opposite. Has it always been this way? Happened over time? One watershed moment?
Jesus and his whole forgiveness and love thing doesn't seem to fit. The pre Jesus stuff I sort of get but since Christianity focuses on the latter it is confusing to me. Ignoring some of the more ridiculous answers to this question, I think it's just happenstance. Rural people tend to be more pro guns for a variety of reasons, a lot of them to do with hunting and farming, while rural people also tend to just be more religious. Sure it doesn't really go hand in hand if you stop to think about it, but that has never really been the strong suit of religion to begin with. I see that connection, but most people in the states are not looking to take away rural long, bolt.action, barrel rifles and shot guns. Its hand guns and automatics that people want gone. Also, ill try to find where I read it, but in cities there is still a large christian pro all guns connection. Today it’s handguns and semi auto rifles, yesterday your handguns were safe and only AR-15 owners had to fear. At least that’s how I interpret “automatics” since true automatics are effectively banned. So ot is a slippery slope argument? No, not really. Gun control activists are divided on what’s next. You just told me that you’re (or “people”) are only coming for hand guns and automatics. Others tell me they’re only up in arms about AR-15. Others all guns. I think we’re already at the point where gun control activists create the fear that your favored home defense or around-town carry weapon is in the cross-sights, if you’ll pardon the pun. We’re already there. I honestly don’t know if it’s ignorance or disingenuousness at this point. The same way people in the pro gun camp have differing opinions so do people in the gun control camp, I don't that is disingenuous so much as it is the reality of the human experience. I think the people on the far sides need to be ignored and some sort of better, but probably not perfect solution could/should be found. Personally (not expecting you to speak for everyone) could you live with: a) AR/15 and bump stocks B) A ban on the above and hand guns C) The above and a requirement of licences on all long barrel guns with a max clip size of 10 bullets D) The above but only bolt action allowed E) No guns except for police and Military F) All guns no regulations I think if you polled Americans not that many would fall in E and F and yet the two sides argue like the other only wants those extremes. (This has obviously moved pretty far from my original question. And that is ok.)
My preference simply isn’t on that list. I could live with certain exchanges for something in the realm of constitutional amendment of “shall issue” carry permits. I won’t stomach a single ban listed except for bump stocks on its own.
I disagree that the two sides argue like E and F. Gun control advocates pretend the history isn’t unilaterally in increased regulation regardless of efficacy and impact. Gun rights/civil rights proponents know the ignorance and emotion on the issue cloud any progress for the time being. The E & F argument is a gross oversimplification for how contentious the fight is.
So please, do away with “people think” unless you’re bringing up polls of the non push-poll variety.
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On August 31 2018 01:43 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2018 01:12 Plansix wrote:
Did you really expect a unified opinion on gun control? If you’re going around saying what “people” think, then something approximating that, of course. If you admit there is no concensus (aside from shock at school shootings and black rifles look scary), then I have very little problem. I’ll advocate what I like among gun control legislation, and you advocate for what you like.
Unfortunately your advocation of what you like appears to mostly be attacking a strawman of your making on the gun legislation postion, and less of advocation of what your postion actually is.
Edit: Case in point, the post above mine which was posted just as I was typing this post.
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On August 31 2018 01:43 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2018 01:12 Plansix wrote:
Did you really expect a unified opinion on gun control? If you’re going around saying what “people” think, then something approximating that, of course. If you admit there is no concensus (aside from shock at school shootings and black rifles look scary), then I have very little problem. I’ll advocate what I like among gun control legislation, and you advocate for what you like.
There is no consensus beyond the status quo is unacceptable and current safeguards are ineffective. There are groups that have passed laws at the state level that have reduced gun related injuries and violence. They would argue that those laws should be more wide spread and supported by federal funding and coordination.
But beyond that, you are not asking the right questions. You don't differentiate between how people feel and what they would be willing to accept. Many people feel that an AR-15 is not a gun that should be sold to civilians. But many of those people would accept tighter background checks and rules regarding mental stability over a ban on weapons like the AR-15.
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On August 31 2018 02:19 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2018 01:43 Danglars wrote:On August 31 2018 01:12 Plansix wrote:
Did you really expect a unified opinion on gun control? If you’re going around saying what “people” think, then something approximating that, of course. If you admit there is no concensus (aside from shock at school shootings and black rifles look scary), then I have very little problem. I’ll advocate what I like among gun control legislation, and you advocate for what you like. There is no consensus beyond the status quo is unacceptable and current safeguards are ineffective. There are groups that have passed laws at the state level that have reduced gun related injuries and violence. They would argue that those laws should be more wide spread and supported by federal funding and coordination. But beyond that, you are not asking the right questions. You don't differentiate between how people feel and what they would be willing to accept. Many people feel that an AR-15 is not a gun that should be sold to civilians. But many of those people would accept tighter background checks and rules regarding mental stability over a ban on weapons like the AR-15.
Yes, I’m answering those questions in ways that show they’re not the right stances. Such as when somebody says what people want to ban, he’s barking up the wrong tree.
I mean, you can come here and ask what compromises you can accept and what compromises you’re asking the other side to agree to. That’s a different line of questioning.
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EPT
