If you're seeing this topic then another mass shooting hap…

On August 30 2018 12:21 ShambhalaWar wrote:


I appreciate your approach, but take 60 minutes away from the thread, then come back and read my post. Nothing in my post was sarcastic, plenty of other posts in this thread are and I support that expression, but you singling me out doesn't feel connected to the words in my post.

And your words don't seem accurate to me.

I never called anyone stupid, I said the argument used by the opposition is stupid. I stand by that. Arming teachers, for example, is a stupid fucking idea.

The situation is ugly and completely fucked up, what do you want me to say about it? It's an ugly thing that's going on with guns in America and using ugly words to describe it isn't crazy or inaccurate. It's ridiculous and murderous... for what?

People with guns want to keep them because they are afraid someone will kill them and it's their "right" to own.... That's the best argument I get from the other side. Yet the more guns on the street increase the chances someone will actually kill them.

Also, the people that are doing these shooting aren't people that don't own guns, the people that do these shootings are the gun owners...

The shooters more often than not own these guns and buy them legally. If people on the others side cared about doing anything to prevent shootings, they would opt/lobby their own side for stricter laws, licenses, etc.. to make sure only responsible people got to arm themselves... In my time on this thread I've never heard any pro-gun person talk like that or ask for those reforms to prevent things like this from happening.

What I get is the immediate diversion to "they are going to take all our guns away."

All I hear is straw men arguments and diversion from real discussion, because at this point the whole thing is so fucked up it's indefensible there is nothing they can say that really makes sense. That's why you saw marco rubio getting reamed out in a stadium standing there studdering like an ass, because there is no logical defense not enacting any law after the MSD shooting, or sandy hook for that matter.

How is "countless deaths" hyperbole? Can you count me the number of gun deaths in the US in that last 10-5 years or even this year alone? I cannot. You can reference statistics... but at what number does it the term "countless" have meaning? 1,000.... 10,000... 100,000? Because you can read a number on a screen associated with many murders doesn't make the term "countless" meaningless or BS.

Those two examples I sited make up the majority of the opposition argument. There are always other arguments, you can create infinite different arguments for almost any viewpoint and run in circles with them, I'm not going to sit here and regurgitate and refute the entire opposition list of arguments, I'll pick a few.

My point with the cnn story was that this person was an example of a "good guy with a gun" who is suppose to be stopping these shootings, but guns for defense aren't always used for that purpose. Also this particular gun owner believe he had the need to defend himself from others, which is something that can be a fear manufactured in the mind, and likely has little to do with actual reality.

This man had a history of aggressive confronting people as if they were going to attack him. You ever hear the saying, "Once you have a hammer everything looks like a nail"? Once you have a gun, everyone looks like a threat. I truly believe that is a legitimate psychological phenomena, and that story illustrated an example of a man who acted on his fears and the story he built in his mind, not on any real threat.

If I'm guilty of something here I would say it's not explaining my points fully, which I have done many times and it has appeared to fall on deaf ears.

So why single me out if we are on the same side? If you are frustrated as well why not voice your own opposition instead of criticize me?

On August 30 2018 12:41 micronesia wrote:
Technically you are right that you called the argument, not the people, "so fucking stupid and failed." I think it's hard for someone being told their argument is 'so fucking stupid' to not think the accusation of stupidity is also directed at them, but indeed you are technically correct.

Your assertion that I accused you of saying sarcastic things is not correct. You said "why not try sarcasm" which is what I was responding to, recognizing that several other users have been super sarcastic in the past day or so (I do need to acknowledge you are not responsible for the sarcasm used by others).

For "How is 'countless deaths' hyperbole?" I'll let the reader decide if it is or not.

I have no problem with your position that you are not going to identify every position of gun rights activists/debaters, and I agree that's not really possible. But note that you said, "the only response that gun culture offers is..."

I maintain that your example of the stand your ground debacle in Florida isn't really supporting (or disproving) your overall thesis. There are much better examples.

You made a few good counterpoints in your most recent post but there also seemed to be zero acknowledgement that your post gives a whole bunch of low hanging fruit to those who disagree with you and hold the viewpoint that you consider "so fucking stupid." If you agree that we both ultimately want mostly the same things here, then you should also respect the fact that my reason for pointing this out to you is because I think you are harming your own cause. I agree, you do not solely share the blame and I've also done things in the past that, looking back, didn't help. But I suggest you don't summarily dismiss 100% of my post, either.

On August 30 2018 13:38 Danglars wrote:

The irony is that he laid out simply and without malice the reasons why you do great harm to your own argument.

If I run across somebody on the street that thinks the opposing arguments are fucking stupid and failed, endorses sarcasm, strawmans the opposition into two camps, and points to a single criminal as some exemplar of how "people" are getting charged, I leave the insufferable troll to his own ignorant rantings. It takes a good Samaritan to actually stop and spend the time to point out the errors within the frustrated ravings.

You may think all the bastards who disagree with you are fucking nuts, but that's more conversation over beers with people that agree with you 90-100% on the issue. Micronesia brings up the great point that you're like a wet dream to gun rights activists. Most of your cooler-headed allies wish arguers like you didn't exist and focus on marginalizing how many share your opinions. See: "nobody wants to take you guns" and "everyone respects your general right to own, carry, and defend yourself lawfully, we just want common sense gun control reform."

On August 30 2018 22:15 JimmiC wrote:
Questions: When did gun ownership and Christianity get so intertwined in the states? It is not so in other countries, if anything it is the opposite. Has it always been this way? Happened over time? One watershed moment?

Jesus and his whole forgiveness and love thing doesn't seem to fit. The pre Jesus stuff I sort of get but since Christianity focuses on the latter it is confusing to me.

On August 30 2018 22:31 farvacola wrote:
The issue he's pointing to isn't a conflation of his own, there are many fundamentalist Christian gun lovers who insist that Christ himself would have walked around with a handgun at his hip if he could have. Morality of self defense aside, that kind of crazy shit is definitely present here.

On August 30 2018 22:47 GoTuNk! wrote:
I could also point out that some of the people in favor of full gun confiscation are the first ones to gather to censor and beat up with sticks people with whom they disagree with (antifa)

On August 30 2018 22:55 JimmiC wrote:

I don't see how this answers my question or why it makes you mad.

I mean I'd be happy to discuss with you the difference between perceived safety and protecting your family and what the numbers say. And personally I have zero problems with licensed long barrel bolt action guns. But the question is unrelated to my opinion on guns.

On August 30 2018 22:27 GoTuNk! wrote:


Guns are most useful on rural areas, both for hunting (tradition) and specially self defense.
Cops can arrive in a few minutes on cities (at least theoretically), this simply isn't possible on a rural setting.
Self defense is perfectly moral, and protecting your family IS your moral duty. Your attempt at jabbin on religion by impliying owning a gun is in some sort againt christian teachings is downright stupid.

On August 30 2018 22:55 farvacola wrote:
Given that the NRA itself has been known to open its meetings with prayers that include language like "Jesus loves me and my guns," I think your brand of availibity heuristics needs some work gotunks.