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On May 24 2018 20:54 Jockmcplop wrote: So we have in Switzerland:
1: The ability of the police to check up on people with automatic weapons 2: Carry/conceal licenses for weapons 3: Criminal records mean you aren't allowed to own weapons, and they can be taken from you 4: Ownership/sale is illegal with exceptions (although from what I have read these are fairly loosely applied) 5: Specific permits to shoot weapons
Superstartran do you think applying some parts of the Swiss system to US law would be a good thing? If so, which parts would you like to see applied to the US, and which parts wouldn't you?
It looks to me like this is a system that works well in Switzerland, although it has been designed for Switzerland and certainly wouldn't export particularly well. There's a cultural attitude at play where I would see this kind of system as very 'European' in nature. I'm not even sure what I mean by that, I know its vague but its a feeling I have. However, if more gun control is being considered, America could certainly take some inspiration from these systems and laws.
It's not just the system in place here; people don't realize that Switzerland already automatically has 200k-250k fully automatic military issue rifles at any given point in time, and yet you don't see any kind of mass shootings. Alot of this comes down to their culture surrounding firearms, and what the purpose of the firearm is used for. Yes, the system works, but the system only works if the culture and society in general accepts that system.
Fairly certain they're converted into semi-automatic rifles. If they choose to purchase a rifle when they finish their service that is.
There are currently 160k active duty soldiers, my bad. That still doesn't dispute the fact that there are a significant amount of fully automatic weapons floating around (not including the ones held in the hands of civilians).
On May 24 2018 20:54 Jockmcplop wrote: So we have in Switzerland:
1: The ability of the police to check up on people with automatic weapons 2: Carry/conceal licenses for weapons 3: Criminal records mean you aren't allowed to own weapons, and they can be taken from you 4: Ownership/sale is illegal with exceptions (although from what I have read these are fairly loosely applied) 5: Specific permits to shoot weapons
Superstartran do you think applying some parts of the Swiss system to US law would be a good thing? If so, which parts would you like to see applied to the US, and which parts wouldn't you?
It looks to me like this is a system that works well in Switzerland, although it has been designed for Switzerland and certainly wouldn't export particularly well. There's a cultural attitude at play where I would see this kind of system as very 'European' in nature. I'm not even sure what I mean by that, I know its vague but its a feeling I have. However, if more gun control is being considered, America could certainly take some inspiration from these systems and laws.
It's not just the system in place here; people don't realize that Switzerland already automatically has 200k-250k fully automatic military issue rifles at any given point in time, and yet you don't see any kind of mass shootings. Alot of this comes down to their culture surrounding firearms, and what the purpose of the firearm is used for. Yes, the system works, but the system only works if the culture and society in general accepts that system.
The reddit poster you linked even says the military rifles are converted to semi-auto.
What part of 'active' duty do you not understand selective reader?
How about you stop being such a selective writer before you start accusing others of anything?
There are not 200k automatic military rifles "floating around" in Switzerland, any more than there are 7000 nukes floating around in the US.
The military rifles are taken home without ammunition, so that's a pretty misleading statement in the first place.
For all the befuddling American right-wing insistence that any type of gun control is the mother of all evil though, I'm almost equally annoyed by the lazy 'gun control would fix all problems' approach. Appears to me that the problematic culture the US has built around guns runs much deeper than just accessability. I'm all for better forms of gun control, but I can't help feel that the endless and superficial discussions around it prevent questions that are just as important. Why so many Americans on this forum (over the years) have seriously and proudly proclaimed their need and right to shoot any robbers or burglars for example (should said burglars ever appear).
On May 25 2018 12:58 Orome wrote: The military rifles are taken home without ammunition, so that's a pretty misleading statement in the first place.
For all the befuddling American right-wing insistence that any type of gun control is the mother of all evil though, I'm almost equally annoyed by the lazy 'gun control would fix all problems' approach. Appears to me that the problematic culture the US has built around guns runs much deeper than just accessability. I'm all for better forms of gun control, but I can't help feel that the endless and superficial discussions around it prevent questions that are just as important. Why so many Americans on this forum (over the years) have seriously and proudly proclaimed their need and right to shoot any robbers or burglars for example (should said burglars ever appear).
While I'm all for responsible and properly regulated gun ownership, this burglar thing has been boggling my mind as well. Even in Poland we have people advocating widespread access to guns on the basis of "I need to defend my home against burglars", but you basically never hear of cases where burglars entered a home when the owner was inside - usually the criminals strike when people are away on vacation or sth like that. For me it reeks of a kinda wild-west power fantasy (and maybe even insecurity - as Professor Farsworth once said, "who needs courage when you have a gun?").
On May 25 2018 12:58 Orome wrote: The military rifles are taken home without ammunition, so that's a pretty misleading statement in the first place.
For all the befuddling American right-wing insistence that any type of gun control is the mother of all evil though, I'm almost equally annoyed by the lazy 'gun control would fix all problems' approach. Appears to me that the problematic culture the US has built around guns runs much deeper than just accessability. I'm all for better forms of gun control, but I can't help feel that the endless and superficial discussions around it prevent questions that are just as important. Why so many Americans on this forum (over the years) have seriously and proudly proclaimed their need and right to shoot any robbers or burglars for example (should said burglars ever appear).
While I'm all for responsible and properly regulated gun ownership, this burglar thing has been boggling my mind as well. Even in Poland we have people advocating widespread access to guns on the basis of "I need to defend my home against burglars", but you basically never hear of cases where burglars entered a home when the owner was inside - usually the criminals strike when people are away on vacation or sth like that. For me it reeks of a kinda wild-west power fantasy (and maybe even insecurity - as Professor Farsworth once said, "who needs courage when you have a gun?").
It is also a key difference to the Swiss gun culture... That in fact you are not supposed to gun them down, even if you could and they are trying to to steal your TV.
On May 25 2018 12:58 Orome wrote: The military rifles are taken home without ammunition, so that's a pretty misleading statement in the first place.
For all the befuddling American right-wing insistence that any type of gun control is the mother of all evil though, I'm almost equally annoyed by the lazy 'gun control would fix all problems' approach. Appears to me that the problematic culture the US has built around guns runs much deeper than just accessability. I'm all for better forms of gun control, but I can't help feel that the endless and superficial discussions around it prevent questions that are just as important. Why so many Americans on this forum (over the years) have seriously and proudly proclaimed their need and right to shoot any robbers or burglars for example (should said burglars ever appear).
While I'm all for responsible and properly regulated gun ownership, this burglar thing has been boggling my mind as well. Even in Poland we have people advocating widespread access to guns on the basis of "I need to defend my home against burglars", but you basically never hear of cases where burglars entered a home when the owner was inside - usually the criminals strike when people are away on vacation or sth like that. For me it reeks of a kinda wild-west power fantasy (and maybe even insecurity - as Professor Farsworth once said, "who needs courage when you have a gun?").
Cool story in the US, another shooting just happened, and there was a guy outside with a gun... who drew his gun and confronted the shooter... then the shooter shot and killed him.
End of story.
Interesting contrast to the waffle house shooting, where someone without a gun stopped a shooter...
My country is too stupid and bought out at the highest levels of power to actually do anything, even when children are getting shot and killed over and over and over again. It's truly fucking pathetic. Here's my suggestion, you remove the republican shills who are bought and payed for from congress, then change the laws... remove the payed for dems as well... but at least they aren't the ones defending all this gun bullshit.
On May 25 2018 13:08 KwarK wrote: I've missed a few pages here but I'd just like to let superstar know that the UK is not drowning in knife fights. That's just not a thing.
Oh, yeah, we probably missed that among all the other absurd claims he made. Though i find the idea of a constantly knife-fighting UK pretty cool. Kind of like the China from Kung-Fu movies where everyone knows Kung-Fu and Kung-Fus everyone all the time, just with knifes instead of Kung-Fu.
On May 25 2018 12:58 Orome wrote: The military rifles are taken home without ammunition, so that's a pretty misleading statement in the first place.
For all the befuddling American right-wing insistence that any type of gun control is the mother of all evil though, I'm almost equally annoyed by the lazy 'gun control would fix all problems' approach. Appears to me that the problematic culture the US has built around guns runs much deeper than just accessability. I'm all for better forms of gun control, but I can't help feel that the endless and superficial discussions around it prevent questions that are just as important. Why so many Americans on this forum (over the years) have seriously and proudly proclaimed their need and right to shoot any robbers or burglars for example (should said burglars ever appear).
While I'm all for responsible and properly regulated gun ownership, this burglar thing has been boggling my mind as well. Even in Poland we have people advocating widespread access to guns on the basis of "I need to defend my home against burglars", but you basically never hear of cases where burglars entered a home when the owner was inside - usually the criminals strike when people are away on vacation or sth like that. For me it reeks of a kinda wild-west power fantasy (and maybe even insecurity - as Professor Farsworth once said, "who needs courage when you have a gun?").
Cool story in the US, another shooting just happened, and there was a guy outside with a gun... who drew his gun and confronted the shooter... then the shooter shot and killed him.
End of story.
Interesting contrast to the waffle house shooting, where someone without a gun stopped a shooter...
My country is too stupid and bought out at the highest levels of power to actually do anything, even when children are getting shot and killed over and over and over again. It's truly fucking pathetic. Here's my suggestion, you remove the republican shills who are bought and payed for from congress, then change the laws... remove the payed for dems as well... but at least they aren't the ones defending all this gun bullshit.
You'll have to remove the United States citizens that have darn good reasons to question the motives and scopes of the gun control activists and lobby. There's enough of them to unite behind new candidates and activist groups, should somehow the current shills get replaced in mass. I gather that some of these citizens are included in your opener of "My country is too stupid."
I cheer and salute the American that stopped a bad guy with a gun by being a good guy with a gun.
This NRA video is making the rounds. I think it makes a valuable point as it wraps up towards the end. I hope both sides can move towards mutual understanding and empathy and meet somewhere in the gap. I'm pretty pessimistic at this happening in the short term.
On May 25 2018 12:58 Orome wrote: The military rifles are taken home without ammunition, so that's a pretty misleading statement in the first place.
For all the befuddling American right-wing insistence that any type of gun control is the mother of all evil though, I'm almost equally annoyed by the lazy 'gun control would fix all problems' approach. Appears to me that the problematic culture the US has built around guns runs much deeper than just accessability. I'm all for better forms of gun control, but I can't help feel that the endless and superficial discussions around it prevent questions that are just as important. Why so many Americans on this forum (over the years) have seriously and proudly proclaimed their need and right to shoot any robbers or burglars for example (should said burglars ever appear).
While I'm all for responsible and properly regulated gun ownership, this burglar thing has been boggling my mind as well. Even in Poland we have people advocating widespread access to guns on the basis of "I need to defend my home against burglars", but you basically never hear of cases where burglars entered a home when the owner was inside - usually the criminals strike when people are away on vacation or sth like that. For me it reeks of a kinda wild-west power fantasy (and maybe even insecurity - as Professor Farsworth once said, "who needs courage when you have a gun?").
It is also a key difference to the Swiss gun culture... That in fact you are not supposed to gun them down, even if you could and they are trying to to steal your TV.
Yeah. I actually first found out about Switzerland's supposed gun culture from reading American gun control debates on the internet. The only guns I've ever seen were in holsters of certain types of policemen. I've never seen a civilian with a gun and I've never seen a drawn gun in my life.
There is gun violence here (which is why army recruits don't take home ammunition anymore), but it's most commonly suicides and family violence (most often men turning on their wives and/or children). Which is another thing that makes this whole burglar thing so ridiculous. I'd wager that statistically you're much more likely to kill your own family in a fit of rage than to heroically save them from evil men. Naturally that's not a thought an individual's going to use to guide their choices (who thinks they'll ever harm their family), but a society as a whole shouldn't be nurturing these absurd myths.
On May 25 2018 12:58 Orome wrote: The military rifles are taken home without ammunition, so that's a pretty misleading statement in the first place.
For all the befuddling American right-wing insistence that any type of gun control is the mother of all evil though, I'm almost equally annoyed by the lazy 'gun control would fix all problems' approach. Appears to me that the problematic culture the US has built around guns runs much deeper than just accessability. I'm all for better forms of gun control, but I can't help feel that the endless and superficial discussions around it prevent questions that are just as important. Why so many Americans on this forum (over the years) have seriously and proudly proclaimed their need and right to shoot any robbers or burglars for example (should said burglars ever appear).
While I'm all for responsible and properly regulated gun ownership, this burglar thing has been boggling my mind as well. Even in Poland we have people advocating widespread access to guns on the basis of "I need to defend my home against burglars", but you basically never hear of cases where burglars entered a home when the owner was inside - usually the criminals strike when people are away on vacation or sth like that. For me it reeks of a kinda wild-west power fantasy (and maybe even insecurity - as Professor Farsworth once said, "who needs courage when you have a gun?").
Cool story in the US, another shooting just happened, and there was a guy outside with a gun... who drew his gun and confronted the shooter... then the shooter shot and killed him.
End of story.
Interesting contrast to the waffle house shooting, where someone without a gun stopped a shooter...
My country is too stupid and bought out at the highest levels of power to actually do anything, even when children are getting shot and killed over and over and over again. It's truly fucking pathetic. Here's my suggestion, you remove the republican shills who are bought and payed for from congress, then change the laws... remove the payed for dems as well... but at least they aren't the ones defending all this gun bullshit.
You'll have to remove the United States citizens that have darn good reasons to question the motives and scopes of the gun control activists and lobby. There's enough of them to unite behind new candidates and activist groups, should somehow the current shills get replaced in mass. I gather that some of these citizens are included in your opener of "My country is too stupid."
I cheer and salute the American that stopped a bad guy with a gun by being a good guy with a gun.
This NRA video is making the rounds. I think it makes a valuable point as it wraps up towards the end. I hope both sides can move towards mutual understanding and empathy and meet somewhere in the gap. I'm pretty pessimistic at this happening in the short term. https://twitter.com/NRATV/status/999714805333147650
edited lel. i retract my statements i will say that the NRA's analogy of media censorship is comparable to restriction of gun ownership is absolutely retarded. this chain of thought has been discussed to death on this thread already though so no further comments
On May 25 2018 12:58 Orome wrote: The military rifles are taken home without ammunition, so that's a pretty misleading statement in the first place.
For all the befuddling American right-wing insistence that any type of gun control is the mother of all evil though, I'm almost equally annoyed by the lazy 'gun control would fix all problems' approach. Appears to me that the problematic culture the US has built around guns runs much deeper than just accessability. I'm all for better forms of gun control, but I can't help feel that the endless and superficial discussions around it prevent questions that are just as important. Why so many Americans on this forum (over the years) have seriously and proudly proclaimed their need and right to shoot any robbers or burglars for example (should said burglars ever appear).
While I'm all for responsible and properly regulated gun ownership, this burglar thing has been boggling my mind as well. Even in Poland we have people advocating widespread access to guns on the basis of "I need to defend my home against burglars", but you basically never hear of cases where burglars entered a home when the owner was inside - usually the criminals strike when people are away on vacation or sth like that. For me it reeks of a kinda wild-west power fantasy (and maybe even insecurity - as Professor Farsworth once said, "who needs courage when you have a gun?").
Cool story in the US, another shooting just happened, and there was a guy outside with a gun... who drew his gun and confronted the shooter... then the shooter shot and killed him.
End of story.
Interesting contrast to the waffle house shooting, where someone without a gun stopped a shooter...
My country is too stupid and bought out at the highest levels of power to actually do anything, even when children are getting shot and killed over and over and over again. It's truly fucking pathetic. Here's my suggestion, you remove the republican shills who are bought and payed for from congress, then change the laws... remove the payed for dems as well... but at least they aren't the ones defending all this gun bullshit.
You'll have to remove the United States citizens that have darn good reasons to question the motives and scopes of the gun control activists and lobby. There's enough of them to unite behind new candidates and activist groups, should somehow the current shills get replaced in mass. I gather that some of these citizens are included in your opener of "My country is too stupid."
I cheer and salute the American that stopped a bad guy with a gun by being a good guy with a gun.
This NRA video is making the rounds. I think it makes a valuable point as it wraps up towards the end. I hope both sides can move towards mutual understanding and empathy and meet somewhere in the gap. I'm pretty pessimistic at this happening in the short term. https://twitter.com/NRATV/status/999714805333147650
edited lel. i retract my statements i will say that the NRA's analogy of media censorship is comparable to restriction of gun ownership is absolutely retarded. this chain of thought has been discussed to death on this thread already though so no further comments
I agree that further discussion on that aspect is not warranted. If you don't already see those rights and impinging on those rights as substantially related, nothing I can say or argue will likely change it. The same goes if you can't see why both could be used as emotional hooks in "think of the children" fashion.
NRA also puts out a lot of nonsensical arguments and media along with the good, so I wanted to highlight one that I think makes its point well.
On May 24 2018 20:54 Jockmcplop wrote: So we have in Switzerland:
1: The ability of the police to check up on people with automatic weapons 2: Carry/conceal licenses for weapons 3: Criminal records mean you aren't allowed to own weapons, and they can be taken from you 4: Ownership/sale is illegal with exceptions (although from what I have read these are fairly loosely applied) 5: Specific permits to shoot weapons
Superstartran do you think applying some parts of the Swiss system to US law would be a good thing? If so, which parts would you like to see applied to the US, and which parts wouldn't you?
It looks to me like this is a system that works well in Switzerland, although it has been designed for Switzerland and certainly wouldn't export particularly well. There's a cultural attitude at play where I would see this kind of system as very 'European' in nature. I'm not even sure what I mean by that, I know its vague but its a feeling I have. However, if more gun control is being considered, America could certainly take some inspiration from these systems and laws.
It's not just the system in place here; people don't realize that Switzerland already automatically has 200k-250k fully automatic military issue rifles at any given point in time, and yet you don't see any kind of mass shootings. Alot of this comes down to their culture surrounding firearms, and what the purpose of the firearm is used for. Yes, the system works, but the system only works if the culture and society in general accepts that system.
Judging from your posts, you appear to be very far from the swiss gun culture. In fact you seem to be promoting a gun culture completely opposite to the swiss gun culture. You insist you current American gun controls, but yet you turn around 10 pages later to say that you support swiss gun laws and culture without any apparent idea of what that entails.
Judging your post you're a gun control advocate who really would just rather ban guns then actually do anything about it. So what?
How about you read my posts, since most of my recent posts involves arguing with someone else on the manufacture of guns, I haven't actually advocated lesser or stronger gun controls. You've had someone reading German-language legalese for you, a Swiss telling you that you are in fact completely wrong, yet you seem to be under the impression that you know the Swiss gun laws and culture. But I suppose its par for the course for you to not discuss with the person, but to throw random words around.
But hey, if I was a gun control advocate, what does it matter? So what? That doesn't make the fact that you have no idea what Swiss gun laws are any different.
It's strange though. I thought that you was advocating Swiss gun control, but here you are writing "gun control advocate" as if it is a terrible position.
On May 24 2018 20:54 Jockmcplop wrote: So we have in Switzerland:
1: The ability of the police to check up on people with automatic weapons 2: Carry/conceal licenses for weapons 3: Criminal records mean you aren't allowed to own weapons, and they can be taken from you 4: Ownership/sale is illegal with exceptions (although from what I have read these are fairly loosely applied) 5: Specific permits to shoot weapons
Superstartran do you think applying some parts of the Swiss system to US law would be a good thing? If so, which parts would you like to see applied to the US, and which parts wouldn't you?
It looks to me like this is a system that works well in Switzerland, although it has been designed for Switzerland and certainly wouldn't export particularly well. There's a cultural attitude at play where I would see this kind of system as very 'European' in nature. I'm not even sure what I mean by that, I know its vague but its a feeling I have. However, if more gun control is being considered, America could certainly take some inspiration from these systems and laws.
It's not just the system in place here; people don't realize that Switzerland already automatically has 200k-250k fully automatic military issue rifles at any given point in time, and yet you don't see any kind of mass shootings. Alot of this comes down to their culture surrounding firearms, and what the purpose of the firearm is used for. Yes, the system works, but the system only works if the culture and society in general accepts that system.
Fairly certain they're converted into semi-automatic rifles. If they choose to purchase a rifle when they finish their service that is.
There are currently 160k active duty soldiers, my bad. That still doesn't dispute the fact that there are a significant amount of fully automatic weapons floating around (not including the ones held in the hands of civilians).
On May 25 2018 06:40 WolfintheSheep wrote:
On May 25 2018 05:38 superstartran wrote:
On May 24 2018 20:54 Jockmcplop wrote: So we have in Switzerland:
1: The ability of the police to check up on people with automatic weapons 2: Carry/conceal licenses for weapons 3: Criminal records mean you aren't allowed to own weapons, and they can be taken from you 4: Ownership/sale is illegal with exceptions (although from what I have read these are fairly loosely applied) 5: Specific permits to shoot weapons
Superstartran do you think applying some parts of the Swiss system to US law would be a good thing? If so, which parts would you like to see applied to the US, and which parts wouldn't you?
It looks to me like this is a system that works well in Switzerland, although it has been designed for Switzerland and certainly wouldn't export particularly well. There's a cultural attitude at play where I would see this kind of system as very 'European' in nature. I'm not even sure what I mean by that, I know its vague but its a feeling I have. However, if more gun control is being considered, America could certainly take some inspiration from these systems and laws.
It's not just the system in place here; people don't realize that Switzerland already automatically has 200k-250k fully automatic military issue rifles at any given point in time, and yet you don't see any kind of mass shootings. Alot of this comes down to their culture surrounding firearms, and what the purpose of the firearm is used for. Yes, the system works, but the system only works if the culture and society in general accepts that system.
The reddit poster you linked even says the military rifles are converted to semi-auto.
What part of 'active' duty do you not understand selective reader?
How about you stop being such a selective writer before you start accusing others of anything?
There are not 200k automatic military rifles "floating around" in Switzerland, any more than there are 7000 nukes floating around in the US.
There are about a 160kish automatic military rifles floating around as there are currently 160k active duty soldiers. That's still a fuck ton of fully automatic weapons floating around. Yes you can't take the military ammunition home (because uh, why would you need armor piercing bullets), but you can easily purchase civilian type ammunition that fits perfectly fine.
But why argue the actual argument when you can just ad homenin non stop? You still haven't addressed my point as to how Switzerland has a significant amount of fully automatic firearms floating around and mass shootings still don't occur.
On May 24 2018 20:54 Jockmcplop wrote: So we have in Switzerland:
1: The ability of the police to check up on people with automatic weapons 2: Carry/conceal licenses for weapons 3: Criminal records mean you aren't allowed to own weapons, and they can be taken from you 4: Ownership/sale is illegal with exceptions (although from what I have read these are fairly loosely applied) 5: Specific permits to shoot weapons
Superstartran do you think applying some parts of the Swiss system to US law would be a good thing? If so, which parts would you like to see applied to the US, and which parts wouldn't you?
It looks to me like this is a system that works well in Switzerland, although it has been designed for Switzerland and certainly wouldn't export particularly well. There's a cultural attitude at play where I would see this kind of system as very 'European' in nature. I'm not even sure what I mean by that, I know its vague but its a feeling I have. However, if more gun control is being considered, America could certainly take some inspiration from these systems and laws.
It's not just the system in place here; people don't realize that Switzerland already automatically has 200k-250k fully automatic military issue rifles at any given point in time, and yet you don't see any kind of mass shootings. Alot of this comes down to their culture surrounding firearms, and what the purpose of the firearm is used for. Yes, the system works, but the system only works if the culture and society in general accepts that system.
Judging from your posts, you appear to be very far from the swiss gun culture. In fact you seem to be promoting a gun culture completely opposite to the swiss gun culture. You insist you current American gun controls, but yet you turn around 10 pages later to say that you support swiss gun laws and culture without any apparent idea of what that entails.
Judging your post you're a gun control advocate who really would just rather ban guns then actually do anything about it. So what?
How about you read my posts, since most of my recent posts involves arguing with someone else on the manufacture of guns, I haven't actually advocated lesser or stronger gun controls. You've had someone reading German-language legalese for you, a Swiss telling you that you are in fact completely wrong, yet you seem to be under the impression that you know the Swiss gun laws and culture. But I suppose its par for the course for you to not discuss with the person, but to throw random words around.
But hey, if I was a gun control advocate, what does it matter? So what? That doesn't make the fact that you have no idea what Swiss gun laws are any different.
It's strange though. I thought that you was advocating Swiss gun control, but here you are writing "gun control advocate" as if it is a terrible position.
'No idea'
You mean how I was the only one to point out that you can actually purchase things like silencers and fully automatic weapons? Before r.Evo comes on here and says "NO YOU CAN'T IT'S HARD YOU HAVE TO FILL OUT ALL THIS PAPERWORK"
Dude is walking around with two silencers and shows the documentation you need to get a 'forbidden' weapon. Rofl. So hard bro.
On May 25 2018 12:58 Orome wrote: The military rifles are taken home without ammunition, so that's a pretty misleading statement in the first place.
For all the befuddling American right-wing insistence that any type of gun control is the mother of all evil though, I'm almost equally annoyed by the lazy 'gun control would fix all problems' approach. Appears to me that the problematic culture the US has built around guns runs much deeper than just accessability. I'm all for better forms of gun control, but I can't help feel that the endless and superficial discussions around it prevent questions that are just as important. Why so many Americans on this forum (over the years) have seriously and proudly proclaimed their need and right to shoot any robbers or burglars for example (should said burglars ever appear).
While I'm all for responsible and properly regulated gun ownership, this burglar thing has been boggling my mind as well. Even in Poland we have people advocating widespread access to guns on the basis of "I need to defend my home against burglars", but you basically never hear of cases where burglars entered a home when the owner was inside - usually the criminals strike when people are away on vacation or sth like that. For me it reeks of a kinda wild-west power fantasy (and maybe even insecurity - as Professor Farsworth once said, "who needs courage when you have a gun?").
Cool story in the US, another shooting just happened, and there was a guy outside with a gun... who drew his gun and confronted the shooter... then the shooter shot and killed him.
End of story.
Interesting contrast to the waffle house shooting, where someone without a gun stopped a shooter...
My country is too stupid and bought out at the highest levels of power to actually do anything, even when children are getting shot and killed over and over and over again. It's truly fucking pathetic. Here's my suggestion, you remove the republican shills who are bought and payed for from congress, then change the laws... remove the payed for dems as well... but at least they aren't the ones defending all this gun bullshit.
You'll have to remove the United States citizens that have darn good reasons to question the motives and scopes of the gun control activists and lobby. There's enough of them to unite behind new candidates and activist groups, should somehow the current shills get replaced in mass. I gather that some of these citizens are included in your opener of "My country is too stupid."
I cheer and salute the American that stopped a bad guy with a gun by being a good guy with a gun.
This NRA video is making the rounds. I think it makes a valuable point as it wraps up towards the end. I hope both sides can move towards mutual understanding and empathy and meet somewhere in the gap. I'm pretty pessimistic at this happening in the short term. https://twitter.com/NRATV/status/999714805333147650
edited lel. i retract my statements i will say that the NRA's analogy of media censorship is comparable to restriction of gun ownership is absolutely retarded. this chain of thought has been discussed to death on this thread already though so no further comments
Personally I find both US gun culture abhorrent (massive fan of the Swiss approach there the more I learn about it. I like the idea of a well-regulated militia apparently) while also finding US media culture when it comes to mass shootings abhorrent. Seeing US coverage and German coverage side by side when it came to e.g. the 2016 Munich shooting was an eye-opener for me personally. I've been really damn glad we do things differently over here when it comes to both of these topics ever since.
Hard to judge which is actually worse in practice, but when in doubt most nations have genuinely shitty media outlets at least attempting similar coverage while there is no nation with a similar gun culture anywhere on the globe.
It's the mixture of seeing guns as amazing for the sake of it and as stuff that is used recreationally and media glorifying mass murderers that creates this absolutely toxic mixture in my opinion.
On May 24 2018 20:54 Jockmcplop wrote: So we have in Switzerland:
1: The ability of the police to check up on people with automatic weapons 2: Carry/conceal licenses for weapons 3: Criminal records mean you aren't allowed to own weapons, and they can be taken from you 4: Ownership/sale is illegal with exceptions (although from what I have read these are fairly loosely applied) 5: Specific permits to shoot weapons
Superstartran do you think applying some parts of the Swiss system to US law would be a good thing? If so, which parts would you like to see applied to the US, and which parts wouldn't you?
It looks to me like this is a system that works well in Switzerland, although it has been designed for Switzerland and certainly wouldn't export particularly well. There's a cultural attitude at play where I would see this kind of system as very 'European' in nature. I'm not even sure what I mean by that, I know its vague but its a feeling I have. However, if more gun control is being considered, America could certainly take some inspiration from these systems and laws.
It's not just the system in place here; people don't realize that Switzerland already automatically has 200k-250k fully automatic military issue rifles at any given point in time, and yet you don't see any kind of mass shootings. Alot of this comes down to their culture surrounding firearms, and what the purpose of the firearm is used for. Yes, the system works, but the system only works if the culture and society in general accepts that system.
Fairly certain they're converted into semi-automatic rifles. If they choose to purchase a rifle when they finish their service that is.
There are currently 160k active duty soldiers, my bad. That still doesn't dispute the fact that there are a significant amount of fully automatic weapons floating around (not including the ones held in the hands of civilians).
On May 25 2018 06:40 WolfintheSheep wrote:
On May 25 2018 05:38 superstartran wrote:
On May 24 2018 20:54 Jockmcplop wrote: So we have in Switzerland:
1: The ability of the police to check up on people with automatic weapons 2: Carry/conceal licenses for weapons 3: Criminal records mean you aren't allowed to own weapons, and they can be taken from you 4: Ownership/sale is illegal with exceptions (although from what I have read these are fairly loosely applied) 5: Specific permits to shoot weapons
Superstartran do you think applying some parts of the Swiss system to US law would be a good thing? If so, which parts would you like to see applied to the US, and which parts wouldn't you?
It looks to me like this is a system that works well in Switzerland, although it has been designed for Switzerland and certainly wouldn't export particularly well. There's a cultural attitude at play where I would see this kind of system as very 'European' in nature. I'm not even sure what I mean by that, I know its vague but its a feeling I have. However, if more gun control is being considered, America could certainly take some inspiration from these systems and laws.
It's not just the system in place here; people don't realize that Switzerland already automatically has 200k-250k fully automatic military issue rifles at any given point in time, and yet you don't see any kind of mass shootings. Alot of this comes down to their culture surrounding firearms, and what the purpose of the firearm is used for. Yes, the system works, but the system only works if the culture and society in general accepts that system.
The reddit poster you linked even says the military rifles are converted to semi-auto.
What part of 'active' duty do you not understand selective reader?
How about you stop being such a selective writer before you start accusing others of anything?
There are not 200k automatic military rifles "floating around" in Switzerland, any more than there are 7000 nukes floating around in the US.
But why argue the actual argument when you can just ad homenin non stop? You still haven't addressed my point as to how Switzerland has a significant amount of fully automatic firearms floating around and mass shootings still don't occur.
That's because they neither glorify mass murderers nor guns.
e:
Before r.Evo comes on here and says "NO YOU CAN'T IT'S HARD YOU HAVE TO FILL OUT ALL THIS PAPERWORK"
Excuse me? I believe I've been very specific in that obtaining e.g. a fully automatic rifle to own it is deliberately comparatively easy in Switzerland (easy compared to e.g. Germany or most EU nations, hard compared to lots of US states), you might have accidentally misread that.
If you're supportive of e.g. guns being taken away when crimes pop up in someone's record or the suspicion of domestic violence arises (which means all weapons need to be at least declared, all the way down to soft-airs), if you're cool with ammunition being strictly kept separate at all times and it being extremely heavily regulated when and where these fully automatic weapons can be fired then I think that's great and I fully agree with you with in seeing Switzerland as a great example to follow!
Which of the Swiss regulations would you like to see implemented asap in the US?
It's all the additional regulations and the attitude towards guns as weapons of war instead of recreational toys or self-defense weapons that results in an overall more healthy gun culture.
I am not sure how the Swiss military works, but US troops that are active duty do not go home at the end of the day. They stay on base or wherever they are deployed.
Since we are temporarily on gun control, I will throw out that the strongest (and commonly dismissed argument) for no or extremely limited gun control is protection from authoritarianism. Despite the ridiculous arguments that millions of people make (somehow even some historians), the constitution is pretty clearly written and above that - the writers wrote other essays on their intent when creating the 2nd amendment. It's also common sense.
People love to dismiss this argument, but it's basically an inevitability that if you take away the power of people to fight tyranny, then tyranny will eventually rule.
Kwark made a post a couple weeks ago I actually really respected. He made the common sense statement that people typically don't come out and say. Some deaths due to tragic events are just the price of having the freedom.
If we want to limit these tragic events as much as possible, we should be looking to solve the actual causes rather than limiting freedoms in response.
On May 25 2018 23:38 Plansix wrote: I am not sure how the Swiss military works, but US troops that are active duty do not go home at the end of the day. They stay on base or wherever they are deployed.
You are mistaken. Most Active Duty troops go home at the end of the day. If they happen to be deployed then yeah, it depends on the location and maybe they just stay on base, or at a hotel, or whatever. (Though they may also be renting a home at the deployment location). Really it depends on length of stay and location. Combat zones = probably stay on base. Safe first world nations (say, germany or UK or w/e) = probably have rented a house. Location just for training = probably staying at a hotel.
For troops located stateside, most just go home at the end of the day. The only people living on base are new recruits, or a select few people in special positions (such as the base commander - he likely has a house on base).
On May 26 2018 01:24 travis wrote: Since we are temporarily on gun control, I will throw out that the strongest (and commonly dismissed argument) for no or extremely limited gun control is protection from authoritarianism. Despite the ridiculous arguments that millions of people make (somehow even some historians), the constitution is pretty clearly written and above that - the writers wrote other essays on their intent when creating the 2nd amendment. It's also common sense.
People love to dismiss this argument, but it's basically an inevitability that if you take away the power of people to fight tyranny, then tyranny will eventually rule.
Kwark made a post a couple weeks ago I actually really respected. He made the common sense statement that people typically don't come out and say. Some deaths due to tragic events are just the price of having the freedom.
If your government has missile armed drones, tanks and planes with big nuclear bombs they have already taken away the power of the people to fight tyranny. What could the American public do to fight tyranny with guns that they couldn't do without guns?
That argument also looks far less attractive once it loses the thin veneer of constitution-speak and reveals itself for what it is, an argument that basically leads to "I want guns so I can kill police or other government employees in the event I consider their actions tyrannical."
On May 25 2018 13:08 KwarK wrote: I've missed a few pages here but I'd just like to let superstar know that the UK is not drowning in knife fights. That's just not a thing.
Funny, because I'm pretty sure that the U.K's crime rate is actually significantly higher than the U.S. even after you adjust for their definition of violent crime. If we just take it at face value like most of you do with gun statistics (without even readjusting definitions and how each government gathers statistics), you'll find that the U.K. actually has something like 2,000+ violent crimes per 100,000 residents, while the United States has like 466 violent crimes per 100,000 residents.
But the U.K. is such an upstanding bastion of how to deter crime amirite?
On May 26 2018 01:24 travis wrote: Since we are temporarily on gun control, I will throw out that the strongest (and commonly dismissed argument) for no or extremely limited gun control is protection from authoritarianism. Despite the ridiculous arguments that millions of people make (somehow even some historians), the constitution is pretty clearly written and above that - the writers wrote other essays on their intent when creating the 2nd amendment. It's also common sense.
People love to dismiss this argument, but it's basically an inevitability that if you take away the power of people to fight tyranny, then tyranny will eventually rule.
Kwark made a post a couple weeks ago I actually really respected. He made the common sense statement that people typically don't come out and say. Some deaths due to tragic events are just the price of having the freedom.
If your government has missile armed drones, tanks and planes with big nuclear bombs they have already taken away the power of the people to fight tyranny. What could the American public do to fight tyranny with guns that they couldn't do without guns?
Because governments typically don't use those things within urban cities because you'd literally be destroying your own infrastructure and it's immensely bad PR.
On May 25 2018 12:58 Orome wrote: The military rifles are taken home without ammunition, so that's a pretty misleading statement in the first place.
For all the befuddling American right-wing insistence that any type of gun control is the mother of all evil though, I'm almost equally annoyed by the lazy 'gun control would fix all problems' approach. Appears to me that the problematic culture the US has built around guns runs much deeper than just accessability. I'm all for better forms of gun control, but I can't help feel that the endless and superficial discussions around it prevent questions that are just as important. Why so many Americans on this forum (over the years) have seriously and proudly proclaimed their need and right to shoot any robbers or burglars for example (should said burglars ever appear).
While I'm all for responsible and properly regulated gun ownership, this burglar thing has been boggling my mind as well. Even in Poland we have people advocating widespread access to guns on the basis of "I need to defend my home against burglars", but you basically never hear of cases where burglars entered a home when the owner was inside - usually the criminals strike when people are away on vacation or sth like that. For me it reeks of a kinda wild-west power fantasy (and maybe even insecurity - as Professor Farsworth once said, "who needs courage when you have a gun?").
Cool story in the US, another shooting just happened, and there was a guy outside with a gun... who drew his gun and confronted the shooter... then the shooter shot and killed him.
End of story.
Interesting contrast to the waffle house shooting, where someone without a gun stopped a shooter...
My country is too stupid and bought out at the highest levels of power to actually do anything, even when children are getting shot and killed over and over and over again. It's truly fucking pathetic. Here's my suggestion, you remove the republican shills who are bought and payed for from congress, then change the laws... remove the payed for dems as well... but at least they aren't the ones defending all this gun bullshit.
You'll have to remove the United States citizens that have darn good reasons to question the motives and scopes of the gun control activists and lobby. There's enough of them to unite behind new candidates and activist groups, should somehow the current shills get replaced in mass. I gather that some of these citizens are included in your opener of "My country is too stupid."
I cheer and salute the American that stopped a bad guy with a gun by being a good guy with a gun.
This NRA video is making the rounds. I think it makes a valuable point as it wraps up towards the end. I hope both sides can move towards mutual understanding and empathy and meet somewhere in the gap. I'm pretty pessimistic at this happening in the short term. https://twitter.com/NRATV/status/999714805333147650
edited lel. i retract my statements i will say that the NRA's analogy of media censorship is comparable to restriction of gun ownership is absolutely retarded. this chain of thought has been discussed to death on this thread already though so no further comments
Personally I find both US gun culture abhorrent (massive fan of the Swiss approach there the more I learn about it. I like the idea of a well-regulated militia apparently) while also finding US media culture when it comes to mass shootings abhorrent. Seeing US coverage and German coverage side by side when it came to e.g. the 2016 Munich shooting was an eye-opener for me personally. I've been really damn glad we do things differently over here when it comes to both of these topics ever since.
Hard to judge which is actually worse in practice, but when in doubt most nations have genuinely shitty media outlets at least attempting similar coverage while there is no nation with a similar gun culture anywhere on the globe.
It's the mixture of seeing guns as amazing for the sake of it and as stuff that is used recreationally and media glorifying mass murderers that creates this absolutely toxic mixture in my opinion.
On May 24 2018 20:54 Jockmcplop wrote: So we have in Switzerland:
1: The ability of the police to check up on people with automatic weapons 2: Carry/conceal licenses for weapons 3: Criminal records mean you aren't allowed to own weapons, and they can be taken from you 4: Ownership/sale is illegal with exceptions (although from what I have read these are fairly loosely applied) 5: Specific permits to shoot weapons
Superstartran do you think applying some parts of the Swiss system to US law would be a good thing? If so, which parts would you like to see applied to the US, and which parts wouldn't you?
It looks to me like this is a system that works well in Switzerland, although it has been designed for Switzerland and certainly wouldn't export particularly well. There's a cultural attitude at play where I would see this kind of system as very 'European' in nature. I'm not even sure what I mean by that, I know its vague but its a feeling I have. However, if more gun control is being considered, America could certainly take some inspiration from these systems and laws.
It's not just the system in place here; people don't realize that Switzerland already automatically has 200k-250k fully automatic military issue rifles at any given point in time, and yet you don't see any kind of mass shootings. Alot of this comes down to their culture surrounding firearms, and what the purpose of the firearm is used for. Yes, the system works, but the system only works if the culture and society in general accepts that system.
Fairly certain they're converted into semi-automatic rifles. If they choose to purchase a rifle when they finish their service that is.
There are currently 160k active duty soldiers, my bad. That still doesn't dispute the fact that there are a significant amount of fully automatic weapons floating around (not including the ones held in the hands of civilians).
On May 25 2018 06:40 WolfintheSheep wrote:
On May 25 2018 05:38 superstartran wrote:
On May 24 2018 20:54 Jockmcplop wrote: So we have in Switzerland:
1: The ability of the police to check up on people with automatic weapons 2: Carry/conceal licenses for weapons 3: Criminal records mean you aren't allowed to own weapons, and they can be taken from you 4: Ownership/sale is illegal with exceptions (although from what I have read these are fairly loosely applied) 5: Specific permits to shoot weapons
Superstartran do you think applying some parts of the Swiss system to US law would be a good thing? If so, which parts would you like to see applied to the US, and which parts wouldn't you?
It looks to me like this is a system that works well in Switzerland, although it has been designed for Switzerland and certainly wouldn't export particularly well. There's a cultural attitude at play where I would see this kind of system as very 'European' in nature. I'm not even sure what I mean by that, I know its vague but its a feeling I have. However, if more gun control is being considered, America could certainly take some inspiration from these systems and laws.
It's not just the system in place here; people don't realize that Switzerland already automatically has 200k-250k fully automatic military issue rifles at any given point in time, and yet you don't see any kind of mass shootings. Alot of this comes down to their culture surrounding firearms, and what the purpose of the firearm is used for. Yes, the system works, but the system only works if the culture and society in general accepts that system.
The reddit poster you linked even says the military rifles are converted to semi-auto.
What part of 'active' duty do you not understand selective reader?
How about you stop being such a selective writer before you start accusing others of anything?
There are not 200k automatic military rifles "floating around" in Switzerland, any more than there are 7000 nukes floating around in the US.
But why argue the actual argument when you can just ad homenin non stop? You still haven't addressed my point as to how Switzerland has a significant amount of fully automatic firearms floating around and mass shootings still don't occur.
That's because they neither glorify mass murderers nor guns.
Before r.Evo comes on here and says "NO YOU CAN'T IT'S HARD YOU HAVE TO FILL OUT ALL THIS PAPERWORK"
Excuse me? I believe I've been very specific in that obtaining e.g. a fully automatic rifle to own it is deliberately comparatively easy in Switzerland (easy compared to e.g. Germany or most EU nations, hard compared to lots of US states), you might have accidentally misread that.
If you're supportive of e.g. guns being taken away when crimes pop up in someone's record or the suspicion of domestic violence arises (which means all weapons need to be at least declared, all the way down to soft-airs), if you're cool with ammunition being strictly kept separate at all times and it being extremely heavily regulated when and where these fully automatic weapons can be fired then I think that's great and I fully agree with you with in seeing Switzerland as a great example to follow!
Which of the Swiss regulations would you like to see implemented asap in the US?
It's all the additional regulations and the attitude towards guns as weapons of war instead of recreational toys or self-defense weapons that results in an overall more healthy gun culture.
You do realize the video I just posted is a guy with two fully automatic weapons with silencers and laser sights on them, all which are extremely heavily regulated in the United States of America. Your post makes it seem like it's almost impossible to even get one, which is the furthest thing from the truth. Guy in the video said he paid about $4000 USD for a fully automatic SD MP5, which in the U.S. because of the fully automatic weapons ban pre-1986ish (IIRC) it's something in the neighborhood of like 35k USD.
The Swiss Gun laws would never pass in the U.S; there's no way gun control advocates would allow such easy access to things such as silencers, fully automatic weapons, and laser slights. Any of the gun control advocates here saying that "it would be ok" are bald face lying, because Plainsix and others just previously in this thread wanted to ban bump stocks themselves, so why would they suddenly be ok with fully automatic weapons. That's the real point I'm making; they are being hypocritical, and simply lying about their actual intentions. There's no intention here to actually try and make a healthier gun culture, improve gun control, lower crime rate, etc.
All these guys are doing is trying to press for their agenda. Period.
And none of that even addresses my actual point, which is that the vast majority of 'mass shooters' had zero records. No criminal history, no mental history, none of those things. They would have STILL had access to weapons, and likely would have had access to more dangerous weapons. That was the original point of me addressing Plainsix; he says "yeah that's fine" except just earlier in this thread he was totally against things like the AR-15, bumpstocks, and other things that he suddenly just agreed to. Just because you have a law, doesn't mean it will stop a bad guy.
EPT
