EPTIf you're seeing this topic then another mass shooting hap…
| Forum Index > General Forum |
Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. | ||
|
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
| ||
|
WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On May 24 2018 09:31 superstartran wrote: We have arrived at the "Hey I'm just gonna personally attack the other dude" because you can't put up a a decent argument. Like I said, tone down the insults. If you can't substantiate an argument, don't post. I could say the same to you. You've thus far failed to back up any one of your assertions, and as far as I can tell have basically been making your points up whole cloth. | ||
|
superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On May 24 2018 09:34 Plansix wrote: As people have stated in the past, it hard to make substantive arguments against someone who never really provides any citations. You assert much and provide very little to back it up, especially when it comes to forgien laws. I've provided plenty of citations and statistics, you simply decide to ignore them in your holy quest for gun control. On May 24 2018 10:29 WolfintheSheep wrote: I could say the same to you. You've thus far failed to back up any one of your assertions, and as far as I can tell have basically been making your points up whole cloth. There's plenty of statistics and citations / studies all posted throughout this thread. I'm not gonna rehash arguments from months ago. | ||
|
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
| ||
|
superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On May 24 2018 10:48 Plansix wrote: We can just go back to the last page where you are making wild claims about Canadian and Swiss gun laws, only to be refuted by someone who reads German and a Canadian. And you previously claims Swiss gun laws were “similar to those in the US” which is just a false. It’s like you asset these things with no evidence and hope the thread moves on so no one will point out you just made some stuff up. What? Simberto NEVER refuted what I said. He even agreed to me stating that there is a clause that states that you can buy fully automatic weapons if you have a special permit. Interpretation of how that is, is up to you. But seriously, keep on with the selective reading. And yes, Canadian laws are very similar to current U.S. Gun laws, especially in states where the gun laws are a little bit more strict. But as always, ignorance as usual. One of the major differences is the open carry/concealed carry which is completely and uniquely American, but magazine limitations, background checks, etc. are all present in certain states within the U.S. And seriously, if you can't stop selective reading, don't respond. | ||
|
Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On May 24 2018 08:36 superstartran wrote: Simberto's translation pretty much roughly translates to mine. Neither of us are Switzerland lawyers, but we are both in agreement it's possible to purchase fully automatic firearms depending on the circumstances. I read and translated it to 'with permit/special permit', which is approximately what he came down to. What that means, we'll need clarification. And Switzerland's gun laws are really not all that strict; it's just an expanded background check system which requires some accountability on the gun seller's part. The special permit criteria is apparently very limited. You probably shouldn't claim that the typical mass shooter in the US qualifies for the criteria. Unless you think they were mostly gun collectors. | ||
|
Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On May 24 2018 11:03 superstartran wrote: What? Simberto NEVER refuted what I said. He even agreed to me stating that there is a clause that states that you can buy fully automatic weapons if you have a special permit. Interpretation of how that is, is up to you. But seriously, keep on with the selective reading. And yes, Canadian laws are very similar to current U.S. Gun laws, especially in states where the gun laws are a little bit more strict. But as always, ignorance as usual. One of the major differences is the open carry/concealed carry which is completely and uniquely American, but magazine limitations, background checks, etc. are all present in certain states within the U.S. And seriously, if you can't stop selective reading, don't respond. It would seem that open carry/concealed carry is the biggest possible difference between two countries' gun laws, and makes all the difference in the world, in terms of the practical consequences. | ||
|
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
| ||
|
superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On May 24 2018 11:07 Doodsmack wrote: The special permit criteria is apparently very limited. You probably shouldn't claim that the typical mass shooter in the US qualifies for the criteria. Unless you think they were mostly gun collectors. So you take the word of the guy who conveniently cut off the translation to fit his argument. Full text below Die Ausnahmebewilligungen nach diesem Gesetz können nur erteilt werden, wenn: a. achtenswerte Gründe vorliegen, insbesondere: 1. berufliche Erfordernisse, 2. die Verwendung zu industriellen Zwecken, 3. die Kompensation körperlicher Behinderungen, 4. Sammlertätigkeit; b. keine Hinderungsgründe nach Artikel 8 Absatz 2 vorliegen; und c. die vom Gesetz vorgesehenen besonderen Voraussetzungen erfüllt sind. Full quote translated using Google Translate since my German is abit sloppy The exemptions under this Act may be granted only if: a. there are good reasons, in particular: 1. professional requirements, Second the use for industrial purposes, Third the compensation of physical disabilities, 4th Collecting activity; b. there are no impediments under Article 8 (2); and c. the special conditions laid down by law are met. According to Swiss people who actually live in Switzerland, they state that you can get fully automatic weapons with a Ausnahmebewilligung https://www.reddit.com/r/self/comments/4o3pt2/gun_control_in_switzerland/ So yes Plainsix, you can go ahead and stop insulting me. | ||
|
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
https://www.quora.com/Are-fully-automatic-weapons-legal-in-Switzerland Although this is basically yahoo answer, I feel it is a sufficient counter point to google translate. The permit is not automatic and apparently may not allow the owner to operate the fire arm(?). Either way, believe it is safe to say the the license is harder to get that is being portrayed in this thread. Especially with the clear, declarative statements like “the Vegas shooter could have gotten an automatic weapons.” | ||
|
superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On May 24 2018 11:28 Plansix wrote: I quick google search has revealed to me that it is very hard to get an automatic weapon Switzerland. https://www.quora.com/Are-fully-automatic-weapons-legal-in-Switzerland Although this is basically yahoo answer, I feel it is a sufficient counter point to google translate. The permit is not automatic and apparently may not allow the owner to operate the fire arm(?). Either way, believe it is safe to say the the license is harder to get that is being portrayed in this thread. Especially with the clear, declarative statements like “the Vegas shooter could have gotten an automatic weapons.” And everything I've found from people who live in Switzerland state that it isn't really that hard at all. https://www.reddit.com/user/Zorthianator_V2/comments/7zm6rm/swiss_gun_laws_for_dummies/ Considering I'm talking about people who do live in Switzerland and actively participate in the gun hobby over there, I'm gonna take their word over yours. And yes, the Vegas shooter based on what I've seen would have been cleared. Gun collector, older, no criminal or mental history. No issues or anything wrong with him in general pre-Vegas shooting. | ||
|
WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On May 24 2018 11:03 superstartran wrote: And yes, Canadian laws are very similar to current U.S. Gun laws, especially in states where the gun laws are a little bit more strict. But as always, ignorance as usual. One of the major differences is the open carry/concealed carry which is completely and uniquely American, but magazine limitations, background checks, etc. are all present in certain states within the U.S. A handful of states come close to Canadian gun law regulations, therefore all of Canada is very similar to all of the US? | ||
|
superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On May 24 2018 11:38 WolfintheSheep wrote: A handful of states come close to Canadian gun law regulations, therefore all of Canada is very similar to all of the US? Some states are more lax, some are more strict. As a whole, it's not that dramatically different unless we're talking strictly about semantics. Yes Texas is very different from Canada; California, New York, and quite a few others are really not that different. | ||
|
WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On May 24 2018 11:40 superstartran wrote: Some states are more lax, some are more strict. As a whole, it's not that dramatically different unless we're talking strictly about semantics. Yes Texas is very different from Canada; California, New York, and quite a few others are really not that different. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_by_state A lot more states are dramatically different than Canada than the ones that are somewhat close. | ||
|
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
Edit: I also find it interesting that my call for Swiss gun laws lead to a response of "But the Vegas Shooter could have gotten an automatic weapon" when he already had a bump stock. Its hard to see how a couple automatic rifles would have substantively changed the outcome of that shooting. | ||
|
Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On May 24 2018 11:16 superstartran wrote: So you take the word of the guy who conveniently cut off the translation to fit his argument. Full text below Full quote translated using Google Translate since my German is abit sloppy According to Swiss people who actually live in Switzerland, they state that you can get fully automatic weapons with a Ausnahmebewilligung https://www.reddit.com/r/self/comments/4o3pt2/gun_control_in_switzerland/ So yes Plainsix, you can go ahead and stop insulting me. That only adds “Article 8(2)” which apparently only consists of prohibitions, meaning it does not add another category that would allow someone to have an automatic weapon. So the categories are still limited to what the other poster stated. Do you argue that most mass shooters in the US are collectors? They clearly don’t fall under the other categories. | ||
|
GreenHorizons
United States23453 Posts
The people that want the laws don't understand what laws would be most practical/effective, some proudly proclaiming even in their ignorance their obvious rightness is clear to every thinking person. then you got sst and danglars who all but admit they'd fight every attempt at (effective or not) legislation tooth and nail because they've somewhat rightly determined that for a large portion of gun control advocates the goal is complete disarmament and it's a one way road. Politicians can just tell their constituency to go fly a kite while kids are getting shot at school and they feel as though they have no choice but to vote for them. Meanwhile everyone neglects to address (pretty much at all) the clear pattern of a feeling of alienation nearly universal to gun crimes and the assumed privilege (be it women's affections as the most recent shooter, white supremacy from Charleston, religious supremacy/holy war in many others) we see in nearly every mass shooting. The most valuable thing I've seen in all this is SST's point that schools, guns, mental illness aren't new or unique to the US, but young (usually white/Asian) men shooting up random people in schools or theaters so frequently is. Even if we did magically remove all guns from the US, it wouldn't do diddly squat to address whatever it is that's leading them to do this stuff in the first place. Maybe they'd be less deadly, or maybe more, when driving the wrong way on the freeway or through street fairs becomes the new way to act out the rage and alienation or bombs or whatever. That's why I think this thread title sucks btw, it centralizes the mass shootings instead of gun related deaths in general. But it also captures how very few are interested in discussing/centralizing that part and would rather get wound up for a week following a mass shooting/send out some fundraising emails/angry tweets/posts, then pass more legislation for the 'elites' and wait for the next It's not even a matter of convincing voters either, it's a matter of politicians acting on the will of their constituents over their corporate sponsors. It's not like if you're a Republican who opposes abortion you can just vote for a Democrat instead of the Republican. You literally have no choice and Democrats like it that way just as much as Republicans. | ||
|
ahswtini
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
| ||
|
r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
On May 24 2018 11:37 superstartran wrote: And everything I've found from people who live in Switzerland state that it isn't really that hard at all. https://www.reddit.com/user/Zorthianator_V2/comments/7zm6rm/swiss_gun_laws_for_dummies/ Considering I'm talking about people who do live in Switzerland and actively participate in the gun hobby over there, I'm gonna take their word over yours. And yes, the Vegas shooter based on what I've seen would have been cleared. Gun collector, older, no criminal or mental history. No issues or anything wrong with him in general pre-Vegas shooting. You're cherrypicking the information you can find in English speaking corners of the internet that fit what you'd like to hear. A bit like when earlier you pretended weapons per capita between countries like Switzerland or Germany are somehow comparable to the US. The way Switzerland works here is this: Ownership, shooting with, sale and so on is illegal when it comes to fully automatic weapons. This is the default state for any weapon that falls within such a category. (Source) Specific states (cantons) can now give out licenses for these, or other illegal weapons, that allow for example purchase and ownership. That specific part is where the law in most cantons is comparatively relaxed. There are regulations that include regular check-ins by the police, weapon and ammo need to be stored separately, these sorts of things. To shoot the weapon (e.g. at a practice range) you again need a permit that can, depending on the state, be an exception for a single day or a week only for example. These are almost always (narrowly) time-limited. Such a special permit costs around 100$ each time it is given out. All the weapons need to be registered. Source: Protell.ch, a Swiss gun advocacy lobby (2+3 mostly). They also mention specifically that "generic" permits for shooting these fully automatic weapons are *extremely* rare since, now we're back to the first point, owning these weapons and shooting with them are by definition illegal in general across Switzerland. Licenses to actively carry any weapon are, similar to Germany, extremely restrictive which is also mentioned in the above FAQ (7). To obtain such a license you need to show that you have a reason to expect dangers to your life that can only be defended against with a firearm. For all practical purposes you will need to work for example in the security sector to make this happen. In practice that means wherever any weapon is it can't be in an instantly usable state. Ammunition has to be kept strictly separate (even e.g. transporting a loaded pistol is against the law) and, especially for e.g. automatic weapons, police always knows who owns which weapon, has the right to check-in on owners and in most cases where and when you are allowed to use the weapons is also heavily regulated. In addition if you have more than one entry in the central criminal database (or at least one entry if it's related to drugs or violence) you lose the right to legally own any weapon. This also includes for example two entries for excessive speeding. Again, all of this and more can be found on the above, pro-gun Swiss website. If you now start arguing that you'd rather believe random people on reddit over an organization such as ProTell then I honestly don't know what to tell you. The overarching goal of Swiss gun laws is to achieve a nation where you have a population that is familiar with (and owns) all kinds of guns in the sense of a well-regulated militia, so they can be ready in the case of for example a military emergency. Owning weapons, even fully automatic ones, is made comparatively easy (while still including check-ins, registrations and harsh restrictions for people who ended up violating the law) but when and where they can be used is purposefully made difficult and expensive. | ||
|
ahswtini
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
switzerland, with its emphasis on individual responsibility, exercises a good deal of discretion when it comes to applying its laws, preferring to give the benefit of the doubt when it comes to people who have no criminal intentions and are effectively complying with the spirit of the law. this is based on my experiences with the bernese cantonal police, and will probably differ greatly compared to the police of the more metropolitan areas (geneva, zurich etc..) | ||
| ||
