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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
May 24 2018 00:34 GMT
#14341
As people have stated in the past, it hard to make substantive arguments against someone who never really provides any citations. You assert much and provide very little to back it up, especially when it comes to forgien laws.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
May 24 2018 01:29 GMT
#14342
On May 24 2018 09:31 superstartran wrote:
We have arrived at the "Hey I'm just gonna personally attack the other dude" because you can't put up a a decent argument. Like I said, tone down the insults. If you can't substantiate an argument, don't post.

I could say the same to you. You've thus far failed to back up any one of your assertions, and as far as I can tell have basically been making your points up whole cloth.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
superstartran
Profile Joined March 2010
United States4013 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-24 01:45:05
May 24 2018 01:44 GMT
#14343
On May 24 2018 09:34 Plansix wrote:
As people have stated in the past, it hard to make substantive arguments against someone who never really provides any citations. You assert much and provide very little to back it up, especially when it comes to forgien laws.




I've provided plenty of citations and statistics, you simply decide to ignore them in your holy quest for gun control.


On May 24 2018 10:29 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 24 2018 09:31 superstartran wrote:
We have arrived at the "Hey I'm just gonna personally attack the other dude" because you can't put up a a decent argument. Like I said, tone down the insults. If you can't substantiate an argument, don't post.

I could say the same to you. You've thus far failed to back up any one of your assertions, and as far as I can tell have basically been making your points up whole cloth.




There's plenty of statistics and citations / studies all posted throughout this thread. I'm not gonna rehash arguments from months ago.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-24 01:57:48
May 24 2018 01:48 GMT
#14344
We can just go back to the last page where you are making wild claims about Canadian and Swiss gun laws, only to be refuted by someone who reads German and a Canadian. And you previously claims Swiss gun laws were “similar to those in the US” which is just a false. It’s like you asset these things with no evidence and hope the thread moves on so no one will point out you just made some stuff up.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
superstartran
Profile Joined March 2010
United States4013 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-24 02:05:43
May 24 2018 02:03 GMT
#14345
On May 24 2018 10:48 Plansix wrote:
We can just go back to the last page where you are making wild claims about Canadian and Swiss gun laws, only to be refuted by someone who reads German and a Canadian. And you previously claims Swiss gun laws were “similar to those in the US” which is just a false. It’s like you asset these things with no evidence and hope the thread moves on so no one will point out you just made some stuff up.




What? Simberto NEVER refuted what I said. He even agreed to me stating that there is a clause that states that you can buy fully automatic weapons if you have a special permit. Interpretation of how that is, is up to you. But seriously, keep on with the selective reading.


And yes, Canadian laws are very similar to current U.S. Gun laws, especially in states where the gun laws are a little bit more strict. But as always, ignorance as usual. One of the major differences is the open carry/concealed carry which is completely and uniquely American, but magazine limitations, background checks, etc. are all present in certain states within the U.S.


And seriously, if you can't stop selective reading, don't respond.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
May 24 2018 02:07 GMT
#14346
On May 24 2018 08:36 superstartran wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 24 2018 08:34 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
As this thread goes on and on, it becomes more and more apparent that despite his confisdence supertranstan does not know what are in Switzerland's gun laws.




Simberto's translation pretty much roughly translates to mine. Neither of us are Switzerland lawyers, but we are both in agreement it's possible to purchase fully automatic firearms depending on the circumstances. I read and translated it to 'with permit/special permit', which is approximately what he came down to. What that means, we'll need clarification.



And Switzerland's gun laws are really not all that strict; it's just an expanded background check system which requires some accountability on the gun seller's part.


The special permit criteria is apparently very limited. You probably shouldn't claim that the typical mass shooter in the US qualifies for the criteria. Unless you think they were mostly gun collectors.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
May 24 2018 02:09 GMT
#14347
On May 24 2018 11:03 superstartran wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 24 2018 10:48 Plansix wrote:
We can just go back to the last page where you are making wild claims about Canadian and Swiss gun laws, only to be refuted by someone who reads German and a Canadian. And you previously claims Swiss gun laws were “similar to those in the US” which is just a false. It’s like you asset these things with no evidence and hope the thread moves on so no one will point out you just made some stuff up.




What? Simberto NEVER refuted what I said. He even agreed to me stating that there is a clause that states that you can buy fully automatic weapons if you have a special permit. Interpretation of how that is, is up to you. But seriously, keep on with the selective reading.


And yes, Canadian laws are very similar to current U.S. Gun laws, especially in states where the gun laws are a little bit more strict. But as always, ignorance as usual. One of the major differences is the open carry/concealed carry which is completely and uniquely American, but magazine limitations, background checks, etc. are all present in certain states within the U.S.


And seriously, if you can't stop selective reading, don't respond.


It would seem that open carry/concealed carry is the biggest possible difference between two countries' gun laws, and makes all the difference in the world, in terms of the practical consequences.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-24 02:16:13
May 24 2018 02:15 GMT
#14348
Also the Swiss system of background check system and person to person sales couldn’t farther from how the US system works. All of the burden is on the guns owners and they need to keep records of sales. They have to submit their own clean record to the state to get a license. The only similarities are that it involves guns and criminal records.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
superstartran
Profile Joined March 2010
United States4013 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-24 02:21:29
May 24 2018 02:16 GMT
#14349
On May 24 2018 11:07 Doodsmack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 24 2018 08:36 superstartran wrote:
On May 24 2018 08:34 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
As this thread goes on and on, it becomes more and more apparent that despite his confisdence supertranstan does not know what are in Switzerland's gun laws.




Simberto's translation pretty much roughly translates to mine. Neither of us are Switzerland lawyers, but we are both in agreement it's possible to purchase fully automatic firearms depending on the circumstances. I read and translated it to 'with permit/special permit', which is approximately what he came down to. What that means, we'll need clarification.



And Switzerland's gun laws are really not all that strict; it's just an expanded background check system which requires some accountability on the gun seller's part.


The special permit criteria is apparently very limited. You probably shouldn't claim that the typical mass shooter in the US qualifies for the criteria. Unless you think they were mostly gun collectors.




So you take the word of the guy who conveniently cut off the translation to fit his argument. Full text below



Die Ausnahmebewilligungen nach diesem Gesetz können nur erteilt werden, wenn:

a.
achtenswerte Gründe vorliegen, insbesondere:
1.
berufliche Erfordernisse,
2.
die Verwendung zu industriellen Zwecken,
3.
die Kompensation körperlicher Behinderungen,
4.
Sammlertätigkeit;
b.
keine Hinderungsgründe nach Artikel 8 Absatz 2 vorliegen; und
c.
die vom Gesetz vorgesehenen besonderen Voraussetzungen erfüllt sind.



Full quote translated using Google Translate since my German is abit sloppy

The exemptions under this Act may be granted only if:

a.
there are good reasons, in particular:
1.
professional requirements,
Second
the use for industrial purposes,
Third
the compensation of physical disabilities,
4th
Collecting activity;
b.
there are no impediments under Article 8 (2); and
c.
the special conditions laid down by law are met.




According to Swiss people who actually live in Switzerland, they state that you can get fully automatic weapons with a Ausnahmebewilligung

https://www.reddit.com/r/self/comments/4o3pt2/gun_control_in_switzerland/





So yes Plainsix, you can go ahead and stop insulting me.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-24 02:30:51
May 24 2018 02:28 GMT
#14350
I quick google search has revealed to me that it is very hard to get an automatic weapon Switzerland.

https://www.quora.com/Are-fully-automatic-weapons-legal-in-Switzerland

Although this is basically yahoo answer, I feel it is a sufficient counter point to google translate. The permit is not automatic and apparently may not allow the owner to operate the fire arm(?). Either way, believe it is safe to say the the license is harder to get that is being portrayed in this thread. Especially with the clear, declarative statements like “the Vegas shooter could have gotten an automatic weapons.”
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
superstartran
Profile Joined March 2010
United States4013 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-24 02:39:25
May 24 2018 02:37 GMT
#14351
On May 24 2018 11:28 Plansix wrote:
I quick google search has revealed to me that it is very hard to get an automatic weapon Switzerland.

https://www.quora.com/Are-fully-automatic-weapons-legal-in-Switzerland

Although this is basically yahoo answer, I feel it is a sufficient counter point to google translate. The permit is not automatic and apparently may not allow the owner to operate the fire arm(?). Either way, believe it is safe to say the the license is harder to get that is being portrayed in this thread. Especially with the clear, declarative statements like “the Vegas shooter could have gotten an automatic weapons.”




And everything I've found from people who live in Switzerland state that it isn't really that hard at all.



https://www.reddit.com/user/Zorthianator_V2/comments/7zm6rm/swiss_gun_laws_for_dummies/



Considering I'm talking about people who do live in Switzerland and actively participate in the gun hobby over there, I'm gonna take their word over yours.


And yes, the Vegas shooter based on what I've seen would have been cleared. Gun collector, older, no criminal or mental history. No issues or anything wrong with him in general pre-Vegas shooting.
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
May 24 2018 02:38 GMT
#14352
On May 24 2018 11:03 superstartran wrote:
And yes, Canadian laws are very similar to current U.S. Gun laws, especially in states where the gun laws are a little bit more strict. But as always, ignorance as usual. One of the major differences is the open carry/concealed carry which is completely and uniquely American, but magazine limitations, background checks, etc. are all present in certain states within the U.S.

A handful of states come close to Canadian gun law regulations, therefore all of Canada is very similar to all of the US?
Average means I'm better than half of you.
superstartran
Profile Joined March 2010
United States4013 Posts
May 24 2018 02:40 GMT
#14353
On May 24 2018 11:38 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 24 2018 11:03 superstartran wrote:
And yes, Canadian laws are very similar to current U.S. Gun laws, especially in states where the gun laws are a little bit more strict. But as always, ignorance as usual. One of the major differences is the open carry/concealed carry which is completely and uniquely American, but magazine limitations, background checks, etc. are all present in certain states within the U.S.

A handful of states come close to Canadian gun law regulations, therefore all of Canada is very similar to all of the US?




Some states are more lax, some are more strict. As a whole, it's not that dramatically different unless we're talking strictly about semantics. Yes Texas is very different from Canada; California, New York, and quite a few others are really not that different.
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
May 24 2018 02:46 GMT
#14354
On May 24 2018 11:40 superstartran wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 24 2018 11:38 WolfintheSheep wrote:
On May 24 2018 11:03 superstartran wrote:
And yes, Canadian laws are very similar to current U.S. Gun laws, especially in states where the gun laws are a little bit more strict. But as always, ignorance as usual. One of the major differences is the open carry/concealed carry which is completely and uniquely American, but magazine limitations, background checks, etc. are all present in certain states within the U.S.

A handful of states come close to Canadian gun law regulations, therefore all of Canada is very similar to all of the US?




Some states are more lax, some are more strict. As a whole, it's not that dramatically different unless we're talking strictly about semantics. Yes Texas is very different from Canada; California, New York, and quite a few others are really not that different.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_by_state

A lot more states are dramatically different than Canada than the ones that are somewhat close.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-24 02:53:20
May 24 2018 02:47 GMT
#14355
My understanding is the minority of states have laws similar to Canada. States like MA, NY, CA and CT have stricter gun laws. But southern and midwestern states are known for their lax gun laws and requirements to purchase a fire arm. I don’t not know why this claim continues to be made.

Edit: I also find it interesting that my call for Swiss gun laws lead to a response of "But the Vegas Shooter could have gotten an automatic weapon" when he already had a bump stock. Its hard to see how a couple automatic rifles would have substantively changed the outcome of that shooting.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
May 24 2018 03:27 GMT
#14356
On May 24 2018 11:16 superstartran wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 24 2018 11:07 Doodsmack wrote:
On May 24 2018 08:36 superstartran wrote:
On May 24 2018 08:34 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
As this thread goes on and on, it becomes more and more apparent that despite his confisdence supertranstan does not know what are in Switzerland's gun laws.




Simberto's translation pretty much roughly translates to mine. Neither of us are Switzerland lawyers, but we are both in agreement it's possible to purchase fully automatic firearms depending on the circumstances. I read and translated it to 'with permit/special permit', which is approximately what he came down to. What that means, we'll need clarification.



And Switzerland's gun laws are really not all that strict; it's just an expanded background check system which requires some accountability on the gun seller's part.


The special permit criteria is apparently very limited. You probably shouldn't claim that the typical mass shooter in the US qualifies for the criteria. Unless you think they were mostly gun collectors.




So you take the word of the guy who conveniently cut off the translation to fit his argument. Full text below



Show nested quote +
Die Ausnahmebewilligungen nach diesem Gesetz können nur erteilt werden, wenn:

a.
achtenswerte Gründe vorliegen, insbesondere:
1.
berufliche Erfordernisse,
2.
die Verwendung zu industriellen Zwecken,
3.
die Kompensation körperlicher Behinderungen,
4.
Sammlertätigkeit;
b.
keine Hinderungsgründe nach Artikel 8 Absatz 2 vorliegen; und
c.
die vom Gesetz vorgesehenen besonderen Voraussetzungen erfüllt sind.



Full quote translated using Google Translate since my German is abit sloppy

Show nested quote +
The exemptions under this Act may be granted only if:

a.
there are good reasons, in particular:
1.
professional requirements,
Second
the use for industrial purposes,
Third
the compensation of physical disabilities,
4th
Collecting activity;
b.
there are no impediments under Article 8 (2); and
c.
the special conditions laid down by law are met.




According to Swiss people who actually live in Switzerland, they state that you can get fully automatic weapons with a Ausnahmebewilligung

https://www.reddit.com/r/self/comments/4o3pt2/gun_control_in_switzerland/





So yes Plainsix, you can go ahead and stop insulting me.


That only adds “Article 8(2)” which apparently only consists of prohibitions, meaning it does not add another category that would allow someone to have an automatic weapon. So the categories are still limited to what the other poster stated. Do you argue that most mass shooters in the US are collectors? They clearly don’t fall under the other categories.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23222 Posts
May 24 2018 04:59 GMT
#14357
This thread does strike me as a vicious and hopeless cycle.

The people that want the laws don't understand what laws would be most practical/effective, some proudly proclaiming even in their ignorance their obvious rightness is clear to every thinking person.

then you got sst and danglars who all but admit they'd fight every attempt at (effective or not) legislation tooth and nail because they've somewhat rightly determined that for a large portion of gun control advocates the goal is complete disarmament and it's a one way road.

Politicians can just tell their constituency to go fly a kite while kids are getting shot at school and they feel as though they have no choice but to vote for them.

Meanwhile everyone neglects to address (pretty much at all) the clear pattern of a feeling of alienation nearly universal to gun crimes and the assumed privilege (be it women's affections as the most recent shooter, white supremacy from Charleston, religious supremacy/holy war in many others) we see in nearly every mass shooting.

The most valuable thing I've seen in all this is SST's point that schools, guns, mental illness aren't new or unique to the US, but young (usually white/Asian) men shooting up random people in schools or theaters so frequently is. Even if we did magically remove all guns from the US, it wouldn't do diddly squat to address whatever it is that's leading them to do this stuff in the first place.

Maybe they'd be less deadly, or maybe more, when driving the wrong way on the freeway or through street fairs becomes the new way to act out the rage and alienation or bombs or whatever.

That's why I think this thread title sucks btw, it centralizes the mass shootings instead of gun related deaths in general. But it also captures how very few are interested in discussing/centralizing that part and would rather get wound up for a week following a mass shooting/send out some fundraising emails/angry tweets/posts, then pass more legislation for the 'elites' and wait for the next fundraising opportunity mass shooting to do it all over again.

It's not even a matter of convincing voters either, it's a matter of politicians acting on the will of their constituents over their corporate sponsors. It's not like if you're a Republican who opposes abortion you can just vote for a Democrat instead of the Republican. You literally have no choice and Democrats like it that way just as much as Republicans.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
ahswtini
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
May 24 2018 08:10 GMT
#14358
people in america will see the "sensible" gun control measures in switzerland (background checks, record of gun sales) and will see that there are continued attempts to enact further gun control measures (albeit from Brussels). if these so called sensible measures aren't even enough for the swiss, who see a very low rate of gun crime, it just reinforces the idea that gun rights will continually be threatened
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
r.Evo
Profile Joined August 2006
Germany14080 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-24 10:22:15
May 24 2018 09:58 GMT
#14359
On May 24 2018 11:37 superstartran wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 24 2018 11:28 Plansix wrote:
I quick google search has revealed to me that it is very hard to get an automatic weapon Switzerland.

https://www.quora.com/Are-fully-automatic-weapons-legal-in-Switzerland

Although this is basically yahoo answer, I feel it is a sufficient counter point to google translate. The permit is not automatic and apparently may not allow the owner to operate the fire arm(?). Either way, believe it is safe to say the the license is harder to get that is being portrayed in this thread. Especially with the clear, declarative statements like “the Vegas shooter could have gotten an automatic weapons.”




And everything I've found from people who live in Switzerland state that it isn't really that hard at all.



https://www.reddit.com/user/Zorthianator_V2/comments/7zm6rm/swiss_gun_laws_for_dummies/



Considering I'm talking about people who do live in Switzerland and actively participate in the gun hobby over there, I'm gonna take their word over yours.


And yes, the Vegas shooter based on what I've seen would have been cleared. Gun collector, older, no criminal or mental history. No issues or anything wrong with him in general pre-Vegas shooting.

You're cherrypicking the information you can find in English speaking corners of the internet that fit what you'd like to hear. A bit like when earlier you pretended weapons per capita between countries like Switzerland or Germany are somehow comparable to the US.

The way Switzerland works here is this:

Ownership, shooting with, sale and so on is illegal when it comes to fully automatic weapons. This is the default state for any weapon that falls within such a category.
(Source)

Specific states (cantons) can now give out licenses for these, or other illegal weapons, that allow for example purchase and ownership. That specific part is where the law in most cantons is comparatively relaxed. There are regulations that include regular check-ins by the police, weapon and ammo need to be stored separately, these sorts of things.

To shoot the weapon (e.g. at a practice range) you again need a permit that can, depending on the state, be an exception for a single day or a week only for example. These are almost always (narrowly) time-limited. Such a special permit costs around 100$ each time it is given out. All the weapons need to be registered. Source: Protell.ch, a Swiss gun advocacy lobby (2+3 mostly). They also mention specifically that "generic" permits for shooting these fully automatic weapons are *extremely* rare since, now we're back to the first point, owning these weapons and shooting with them are by definition illegal in general across Switzerland.

Licenses to actively carry any weapon are, similar to Germany, extremely restrictive which is also mentioned in the above FAQ (7). To obtain such a license you need to show that you have a reason to expect dangers to your life that can only be defended against with a firearm. For all practical purposes you will need to work for example in the security sector to make this happen.

In practice that means wherever any weapon is it can't be in an instantly usable state. Ammunition has to be kept strictly separate (even e.g. transporting a loaded pistol is against the law) and, especially for e.g. automatic weapons, police always knows who owns which weapon, has the right to check-in on owners and in most cases where and when you are allowed to use the weapons is also heavily regulated.

In addition if you have more than one entry in the central criminal database (or at least one entry if it's related to drugs or violence) you lose the right to legally own any weapon. This also includes for example two entries for excessive speeding.

Again, all of this and more can be found on the above, pro-gun Swiss website. If you now start arguing that you'd rather believe random people on reddit over an organization such as ProTell then I honestly don't know what to tell you.

The overarching goal of Swiss gun laws is to achieve a nation where you have a population that is familiar with (and owns) all kinds of guns in the sense of a well-regulated militia, so they can be ready in the case of for example a military emergency. Owning weapons, even fully automatic ones, is made comparatively easy (while still including check-ins, registrations and harsh restrictions for people who ended up violating the law) but when and where they can be used is purposefully made difficult and expensive.
"We don't make mistakes here, we call it happy little accidents." ~Bob Ross
ahswtini
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
May 24 2018 10:21 GMT
#14360
on the point about police checking on guns, neither of you are technically wrong. sst's reddit source states that it isn't true that "The police will check up your guns once in a while". i interpreted that to mean, there is no policy that states police must check your guns at regular intervals. the police have the right to, but that doesn't mean they do it.

switzerland, with its emphasis on individual responsibility, exercises a good deal of discretion when it comes to applying its laws, preferring to give the benefit of the doubt when it comes to people who have no criminal intentions and are effectively complying with the spirit of the law. this is based on my experiences with the bernese cantonal police, and will probably differ greatly compared to the police of the more metropolitan areas (geneva, zurich etc..)
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
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