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On May 24 2018 19:21 ahswtini wrote:
on the point about police checking on guns, neither of you are technically wrong. sst's reddit source states that it isn't true that "The police will check up your guns once in a while". i interpreted that to mean, there is no policy that states police must check your guns at regular intervals. the police have the right to, but that doesn't mean they do it.
switzerland, with its emphasis on individual responsibility, exercises a good deal of discretion when it comes to applying its laws, preferring to give the benefit of the doubt when it comes to people who have no criminal intentions and are effectively complying with the spirit of the law. this is based on my experiences with the bernese cantonal police, and will probably differ greatly compared to the police of the more metropolitan areas (geneva, zurich etc..)
When and how often such a check-in happens is, to my knowledge, entirely up to the respective canton. What is not up to them (since around the year 2000) are most of the other things I mentioned above. For example if someone got caught excessively speeding twice all of their weapons have to be taken away.
The 'recommendation' by the above mentioned ProTell is to "hope that the respective agency responsible doesn't notice" but clearly states that asking for any permit (to e.g. use an already owned weapon at a practice range) will most defintely result in the loss of all weapons (15 in the above FAQ). They also clearly mention that even suspicion of domestic violence for example results in all owned weapons being confiscated and they will only need to be given back by the state if a doctor confirms the person in question is mentally fit and not prone to violence.
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On May 24 2018 18:58 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2018 11:37 superstartran wrote:On May 24 2018 11:28 Plansix wrote:I quick google search has revealed to me that it is very hard to get an automatic weapon Switzerland. https://www.quora.com/Are-fully-automatic-weapons-legal-in-SwitzerlandAlthough this is basically yahoo answer, I feel it is a sufficient counter point to google translate. The permit is not automatic and apparently may not allow the owner to operate the fire arm(?). Either way, believe it is safe to say the the license is harder to get that is being portrayed in this thread. Especially with the clear, declarative statements like “the Vegas shooter could have gotten an automatic weapons.” And everything I've found from people who live in Switzerland state that it isn't really that hard at all. https://www.reddit.com/user/Zorthianator_V2/comments/7zm6rm/swiss_gun_laws_for_dummies/Considering I'm talking about people who do live in Switzerland and actively participate in the gun hobby over there, I'm gonna take their word over yours. And yes, the Vegas shooter based on what I've seen would have been cleared. Gun collector, older, no criminal or mental history. No issues or anything wrong with him in general pre-Vegas shooting. You're cherrypicking the information you can find in English speaking corners of the internet that fit what you'd like to hear. A bit like when earlier you pretended weapons per capita between countries like Switzerland or Germany are somehow comparable to the US. The way Switzerland works here is this: Ownership, shooting with, sale and so on is illegal when it comes to fully automatic weapons. This is the default state for any weapon that falls within such a category. ( Source) Specific states (cantons) can now give out licenses for these, or other illegal weapons, that allow for example purchase and ownership. That specific part is where the law in most cantons is comparatively relaxed. There are regulations that include regular check-ins by the police, weapon and ammo need to be stored separately, these sorts of things. To shoot the weapon (e.g. at a practice range) you again need a permit that can, depending on the state, be an exception for a single day or a week only for example. These are almost always (narrowly) time-limited. Such a special permit costs around 100$ each time it is given out. All the weapons need to be registered. Source: Protell.ch, a Swiss gun advocacy lobby (2+3 mostly). They also mention specifically that "generic" permits for shooting these fully automatic weapons are *extremely* rare since, now we're back to the first point, owning these weapons and shooting with them are by definition illegal in general across Switzerland. Licenses to actively carry any weapon are, similar to Germany, extremely restrictive which is also mentioned in the above FAQ (7). To obtain such a license you need to show that you have a reason to expect dangers to your life that can only be defended against with a firearm. For all practical purposes you will need to work for example in the security sector to make this happen. In practice that means wherever any weapon is it can't be in an instantly usable state. Ammunition has to be kept strictly separate (even e.g. transporting a loaded pistol is against the law) and, especially for e.g. automatic weapons, police always knows who owns which weapon, has the right to check-in on owners and in most cases where and when you are allowed to use the weapons is also heavily regulated. In addition if you have more than one entry in the central criminal database (or at least one entry if it's related to drugs or violence) you lose the right to legally own any weapon. This also includes for example two entries for excessive speeding. Again, all of this and more can be found on the above, pro-gun Swiss website. If you now start arguing that you'd rather believe random people on reddit over an organization such as ProTell then I honestly don't know what to tell you. The overarching goal of Swiss gun laws is to achieve a nation where you have a population that is familiar with (and owns) all kinds of guns in the sense of a well-regulated militia, so they can be ready in the case of for example a military emergency. Owning weapons, even fully automatic ones, is made comparatively easy (while still including check-ins, registrations and harsh restrictions for people who ended up violating the law) but when and where they can be used is purposefully made difficult and expensive.
1) I never misrepresented guns per capita, I said that Switzerland (along with alot of other countries) has a relatively high guns per capita compared to most of the Western World and yet has literally 0 school shootings per year. That was my only point.
2) The original argument was whether or not obtaining a fully automatic weapon was legal or not, and whether it was doable by the profile of the Vegas Shooter. Based off of everything I know, he would have been cleared. He had no criminal history, no known mental illnesses, and was in general considered a normal average rich dude that was somewhat isolated from society. So really all you did was prove my point, thanks.
3) Yes open carry/concealed carry isn't a thing in Switzerland. Already went over that. I don't think that law is going to stop anyone intent on committing a mass murder though.
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On May 24 2018 20:06 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2018 18:58 r.Evo wrote:On May 24 2018 11:37 superstartran wrote:On May 24 2018 11:28 Plansix wrote:I quick google search has revealed to me that it is very hard to get an automatic weapon Switzerland. https://www.quora.com/Are-fully-automatic-weapons-legal-in-SwitzerlandAlthough this is basically yahoo answer, I feel it is a sufficient counter point to google translate. The permit is not automatic and apparently may not allow the owner to operate the fire arm(?). Either way, believe it is safe to say the the license is harder to get that is being portrayed in this thread. Especially with the clear, declarative statements like “the Vegas shooter could have gotten an automatic weapons.” And everything I've found from people who live in Switzerland state that it isn't really that hard at all. https://www.reddit.com/user/Zorthianator_V2/comments/7zm6rm/swiss_gun_laws_for_dummies/Considering I'm talking about people who do live in Switzerland and actively participate in the gun hobby over there, I'm gonna take their word over yours. And yes, the Vegas shooter based on what I've seen would have been cleared. Gun collector, older, no criminal or mental history. No issues or anything wrong with him in general pre-Vegas shooting. You're cherrypicking the information you can find in English speaking corners of the internet that fit what you'd like to hear. A bit like when earlier you pretended weapons per capita between countries like Switzerland or Germany are somehow comparable to the US. The way Switzerland works here is this: Ownership, shooting with, sale and so on is illegal when it comes to fully automatic weapons. This is the default state for any weapon that falls within such a category. ( Source) Specific states (cantons) can now give out licenses for these, or other illegal weapons, that allow for example purchase and ownership. That specific part is where the law in most cantons is comparatively relaxed. There are regulations that include regular check-ins by the police, weapon and ammo need to be stored separately, these sorts of things. To shoot the weapon (e.g. at a practice range) you again need a permit that can, depending on the state, be an exception for a single day or a week only for example. These are almost always (narrowly) time-limited. Such a special permit costs around 100$ each time it is given out. All the weapons need to be registered. Source: Protell.ch, a Swiss gun advocacy lobby (2+3 mostly). They also mention specifically that "generic" permits for shooting these fully automatic weapons are *extremely* rare since, now we're back to the first point, owning these weapons and shooting with them are by definition illegal in general across Switzerland. Licenses to actively carry any weapon are, similar to Germany, extremely restrictive which is also mentioned in the above FAQ (7). To obtain such a license you need to show that you have a reason to expect dangers to your life that can only be defended against with a firearm. For all practical purposes you will need to work for example in the security sector to make this happen. In practice that means wherever any weapon is it can't be in an instantly usable state. Ammunition has to be kept strictly separate (even e.g. transporting a loaded pistol is against the law) and, especially for e.g. automatic weapons, police always knows who owns which weapon, has the right to check-in on owners and in most cases where and when you are allowed to use the weapons is also heavily regulated. In addition if you have more than one entry in the central criminal database (or at least one entry if it's related to drugs or violence) you lose the right to legally own any weapon. This also includes for example two entries for excessive speeding. Again, all of this and more can be found on the above, pro-gun Swiss website. If you now start arguing that you'd rather believe random people on reddit over an organization such as ProTell then I honestly don't know what to tell you. The overarching goal of Swiss gun laws is to achieve a nation where you have a population that is familiar with (and owns) all kinds of guns in the sense of a well-regulated militia, so they can be ready in the case of for example a military emergency. Owning weapons, even fully automatic ones, is made comparatively easy (while still including check-ins, registrations and harsh restrictions for people who ended up violating the law) but when and where they can be used is purposefully made difficult and expensive. 1) I never misrepresented guns per capita, I said that Switzerland (along with alot of other countries) has a relatively high guns per capita compared to most of the Western World and yet has literally 0 school shootings per year. That was my only point. 2) The original argument was whether or not obtaining a fully automatic weapon was legal or not, and whether it was doable by the profile of the Vegas Shooter. Based off of everything I know, he would have been cleared. He had no criminal history, no known mental illnesses, and was in general considered a normal average rich dude that was somewhat isolated from society. So really all you did was prove my point, thanks. 3) Yes open carry/concealed carry isn't a thing in Switzerland. Already went over that. I don't think that law is going to stop anyone intent on committing a mass murder though.
1. Yup, compared to the western world these countries have loads of guns per capita. The US has 3-5x as many which doesn't just just put it "above average" but "off the charts" compared to the rest of the western world.
2. The discussion went like this:
Plansix: "We should be just like Switzerland."
To which you replied:
I hope you realize that Switzerland also allows the sale of fully automatic weapons, something that most of you would be heavily staunchly against.
There's a few loopholes you'd have to jump through as for 'ordinary' use you can't, but it's not impossible. Exemptions are found under article 28b, where if you roughly translate it states that if you meet special criteria for a permit you can own one. Your framing very clearly implies "they're easy to get" (which they aren't compared to the US) and it's ignoring that there are extremely harsh restrictions that have very specific aims in mind which make the Swiss approach completely unlike the US one. Restrictions you personally are completely against because otherwise you'd simply say: "Agreed Plansix, the Swiss have great gun laws! Let's get something similar to the US!"
You took someone agreeing with a specific set of regulations, pretended those regulations agree with your view on the topic in one specific aspect and then chose to deliberately ignore all the other aspects which you massively disagree with.
Thank you for proving the point that you're not interested in understanding Swiss gun laws or interested in regulations similar to the ones Switzerland has - all you care about is that they allow for the ownership of automatic weapons at all as if that somehow invalidates all the other things they do on top to prevent gun violence (and a toxic gun culture).
It's almost like there are people who want guns well-regulated without wanting to take all guns (or even all fully automatic ones) away. Anyone advocating for a Swiss-style approach is very clearly in this camp.
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On May 24 2018 20:22 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2018 20:06 superstartran wrote:On May 24 2018 18:58 r.Evo wrote:On May 24 2018 11:37 superstartran wrote:On May 24 2018 11:28 Plansix wrote:I quick google search has revealed to me that it is very hard to get an automatic weapon Switzerland. https://www.quora.com/Are-fully-automatic-weapons-legal-in-SwitzerlandAlthough this is basically yahoo answer, I feel it is a sufficient counter point to google translate. The permit is not automatic and apparently may not allow the owner to operate the fire arm(?). Either way, believe it is safe to say the the license is harder to get that is being portrayed in this thread. Especially with the clear, declarative statements like “the Vegas shooter could have gotten an automatic weapons.” And everything I've found from people who live in Switzerland state that it isn't really that hard at all. https://www.reddit.com/user/Zorthianator_V2/comments/7zm6rm/swiss_gun_laws_for_dummies/Considering I'm talking about people who do live in Switzerland and actively participate in the gun hobby over there, I'm gonna take their word over yours. And yes, the Vegas shooter based on what I've seen would have been cleared. Gun collector, older, no criminal or mental history. No issues or anything wrong with him in general pre-Vegas shooting. You're cherrypicking the information you can find in English speaking corners of the internet that fit what you'd like to hear. A bit like when earlier you pretended weapons per capita between countries like Switzerland or Germany are somehow comparable to the US. The way Switzerland works here is this: Ownership, shooting with, sale and so on is illegal when it comes to fully automatic weapons. This is the default state for any weapon that falls within such a category. ( Source) Specific states (cantons) can now give out licenses for these, or other illegal weapons, that allow for example purchase and ownership. That specific part is where the law in most cantons is comparatively relaxed. There are regulations that include regular check-ins by the police, weapon and ammo need to be stored separately, these sorts of things. To shoot the weapon (e.g. at a practice range) you again need a permit that can, depending on the state, be an exception for a single day or a week only for example. These are almost always (narrowly) time-limited. Such a special permit costs around 100$ each time it is given out. All the weapons need to be registered. Source: Protell.ch, a Swiss gun advocacy lobby (2+3 mostly). They also mention specifically that "generic" permits for shooting these fully automatic weapons are *extremely* rare since, now we're back to the first point, owning these weapons and shooting with them are by definition illegal in general across Switzerland. Licenses to actively carry any weapon are, similar to Germany, extremely restrictive which is also mentioned in the above FAQ (7). To obtain such a license you need to show that you have a reason to expect dangers to your life that can only be defended against with a firearm. For all practical purposes you will need to work for example in the security sector to make this happen. In practice that means wherever any weapon is it can't be in an instantly usable state. Ammunition has to be kept strictly separate (even e.g. transporting a loaded pistol is against the law) and, especially for e.g. automatic weapons, police always knows who owns which weapon, has the right to check-in on owners and in most cases where and when you are allowed to use the weapons is also heavily regulated. In addition if you have more than one entry in the central criminal database (or at least one entry if it's related to drugs or violence) you lose the right to legally own any weapon. This also includes for example two entries for excessive speeding. Again, all of this and more can be found on the above, pro-gun Swiss website. If you now start arguing that you'd rather believe random people on reddit over an organization such as ProTell then I honestly don't know what to tell you. The overarching goal of Swiss gun laws is to achieve a nation where you have a population that is familiar with (and owns) all kinds of guns in the sense of a well-regulated militia, so they can be ready in the case of for example a military emergency. Owning weapons, even fully automatic ones, is made comparatively easy (while still including check-ins, registrations and harsh restrictions for people who ended up violating the law) but when and where they can be used is purposefully made difficult and expensive. 1) I never misrepresented guns per capita, I said that Switzerland (along with alot of other countries) has a relatively high guns per capita compared to most of the Western World and yet has literally 0 school shootings per year. That was my only point. 2) The original argument was whether or not obtaining a fully automatic weapon was legal or not, and whether it was doable by the profile of the Vegas Shooter. Based off of everything I know, he would have been cleared. He had no criminal history, no known mental illnesses, and was in general considered a normal average rich dude that was somewhat isolated from society. So really all you did was prove my point, thanks. 3) Yes open carry/concealed carry isn't a thing in Switzerland. Already went over that. I don't think that law is going to stop anyone intent on committing a mass murder though. 1. Yup, compared to the western world these countries have loads of guns per capita. The US has 3-5x as many which doesn't just just put it "above average" but "off the charts" compared to the rest of the western world. 2. The discussion went like this: Plansix: "We should be just like Switzerland." To which you replied: Show nested quote +I hope you realize that Switzerland also allows the sale of fully automatic weapons, something that most of you would be heavily staunchly against.
There's a few loopholes you'd have to jump through as for 'ordinary' use you can't, but it's not impossible. Exemptions are found under article 28b, where if you roughly translate it states that if you meet special criteria for a permit you can own one. Your framing very clearly implies "they're easy to get" (which they aren't compared to the US) and it's ignoring that there are extremely harsh restrictions that have very specific aims in mind which make the Swiss approach completely unlike the US one. Restrictions you personally are completely against because otherwise you'd simply say: "Agreed Plansix, the Swiss have great gun laws! Let's get something similar to the US!" You took someone agreeing with a specific set of regulations, pretended those regulations agree with your view on the topic in one specific aspect and then chose to deliberately ignore all the other aspects which you massively disagree with. Thank you for proving the point that you're not interested in understanding Swiss gun laws or interested in regulations similar to the ones Switzerland has - all you care about is that they allow for the ownership of automatic weapons at all as if that somehow invalidates all the other things they do on top to prevent gun violence (and a toxic gun culture). It's almost like there are people who want guns well-regulated without wanting to take all guns (or even all fully automatic ones) away. Anyone advocating for a Swiss-style approach is very clearly in this camp.
Good thing my quote specifically states you have to jump through a few hoops in order to obtain one, and never did I state they "are very easy to get."
It's like selective reading is a thing, hrmmm......
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So we have in Switzerland:
1: The ability of the police to check up on people with automatic weapons
2: Carry/conceal licenses for weapons
3: Criminal records mean you aren't allowed to own weapons, and they can be taken from you
4: Ownership/sale is illegal with exceptions (although from what I have read these are fairly loosely applied)
5: Specific permits to shoot weapons
Superstartran do you think applying some parts of the Swiss system to US law would be a good thing?
If so, which parts would you like to see applied to the US, and which parts wouldn't you?
It looks to me like this is a system that works well in Switzerland, although it has been designed for Switzerland and certainly wouldn't export particularly well. There's a cultural attitude at play where I would see this kind of system as very 'European' in nature. I'm not even sure what I mean by that, I know its vague but its a feeling I have.
However, if more gun control is being considered, America could certainly take some inspiration from these systems and laws.
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Northern Ireland22207 Posts
On May 24 2018 20:54 Jockmcplop wrote:
So we have in Switzerland:
1: The ability of the police to check up on people with automatic weapons
2: Carry/conceal licenses for weapons
3: Criminal records mean you aren't allowed to own weapons, and they can be taken from you
4: Ownership/sale is illegal with exceptions (although from what I have read these are fairly loosely applied)
5: Specific permits to shoot weapons
Superstartran do you think applying some parts of the Swiss system to US law would be a good thing?
If so, which parts would you like to see applied to the US, and which parts wouldn't you?
It looks to me like this is a system that works well in Switzerland, although it has been designed for Switzerland and certainly wouldn't export particularly well. There's a cultural attitude at play where I would see this kind of system as very 'European' in nature. I'm not even sure what I mean by that, I know its vague but its a feeling I have.
However, if more gun control is being considered, America could certainly take some inspiration from these systems and laws.
well, many of what you mentioned are already in place in the US.
the majority of states require a license to carry, i think there are only like 6-7 that are unrestricted in that sense. people convicted of a felony are banned for life. automatic weapons are already quite heavily regulated. transfers of machineguns and other NFA weapons, including suppressors, must all be recorded on a federal registry.
specific permits to shoot weapons is a silly concept to me. if you are already legally allowed to own such a weapon, i don't see how requiring a permit to use it at a range will prevent you from going postal with it.
pro-gunners will be more likely to entertain legislation if it isn't a one way street. the word 'compromise' is used a lot, except it implies that both sides need to give a bit. what ends up happening is, the anti-gunners back off a little on their demands, and then claim they've made a compromise. there two issues that come to my mind, that pro-gunners would like to see legislation relaxed in. one is concealed carry reciprocity, which would require states to recognise carry permits issued in other states. the other is the removal of suppressors from the NFA. suppressors have many legitimate uses, and are quite unpracticable for your average criminal.
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It is important to remember that though many states have background checks, the US does not have a universal records database. It is a patchwork of data bases, some that are not linked or kept up to date. Many are poorly maintained as well. And there has always been opposition to linking these databases or closing loopholes in them. And person to person sales of guns essentially unregulated. So we do not really have similar laws here in the US.
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Yeah, the claims of similarity overlook dynamics like those that surround the proliferation of guns in places like Chicago. In under two hours, one can enter into four different jurisdictions, each with its own rules and enforcement norms. The patchwork aspect of gun regulation is practically a defining feature of its implementation here in the States.
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On May 24 2018 22:08 Plansix wrote:
It is important to remember that though many states have background checks, the US does not have a universal records database. It is a patchwork of data bases, some that are not linked or kept up to date. Many are poorly maintained as well. And there has always been opposition to linking these databases or closing loopholes in them. And person to person sales of guns essentially unregulated. So we do not really have similar laws here in the US.
It also boils down to what you define as "background check".
The way the Swiss system works is that two criminal entries (or one for a violent offense/drug related offense) in the federal database (where everything is entered) result in your right to own any weapon being taken away. Since all weapons need to be registered in some form this is rather trivial to accomplish. These things tend to be incredibly difficult to compare, but all in roughly 10% of the Swiss population have entries in this database in general (source).
What they also include are various offenses or suspicions resulting in your weapons being confiscated immediately - the mere suspicion of domestic violence is the big one here, I don't know what else falls within this category but it's likely more than this as well.
1: The ability of the police to check up on people with automatic weapons
2: Carry/conceal licenses for weapons
3: Criminal records mean you aren't allowed to own weapons, and they can be taken from you
4: Ownership/sale is illegal with exceptions (although from what I have read these are fairly loosely applied)
5: Specific permits to shoot weapons
2) is a bit misleading when compared to the US. These carry permits are extremely hard to get, you need to be able to prove that you have a reason to expect a danger to your life that can only be defended against with a firearm. These licenses are always limited to a maximum of five years. The only exception for a profession is for hunters who have their own specific tests in the first place.
4) is also a bit more complicated. First of all all weapons need to be at least declared, this includes realistic looking but fake weapons, paintball guns and CO2 weapons with more than 7.5 joule energy (here a handy official list with examples of this category). Ammunition has to always be separate from the weapon, except for the the place where it is actually being used. The private sale of a gun needs to be recorded in writing, reported to the police and the records need to be kept for at least ten years for example. Records of regular sales need to be kept for 30 years.
Categories are also sometimes completely different compared to the US, a great example here are tasers which to my knowledge can be carried legally in most US states - in Switzerland these fall into the same category as fully automatic weapons, butterfly knives and LMGs (again an example list for that category of "illegal but exceptions can be given out" can be seen here).
There is also the possibility for harsh punishments for various offenses. Failure to mention the loss of a weapon to authorities, getting caught transporting ammunition and the weapon together or other violations can result in up to 5 years in prison or ~100k$ fines.
5) Has, to my knowledge, the background that whenever a fully automatic weapon is being fired anywhere authorities want to know about it. Again, the idea is that these are illegal weapons by default and the exceptions exist so people can practice with them nevertheless under regulation and oversight.
PS: Fun sidefact, the vast majority of guns owned in Switzerland are rifles.
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It makes sense. I would put the shotgun and rifle as the most versatile firearms for a civilian. They are also the easiest to learn on, from my experience.
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On May 24 2018 21:17 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2018 20:54 Jockmcplop wrote:
So we have in Switzerland:
1: The ability of the police to check up on people with automatic weapons
2: Carry/conceal licenses for weapons
3: Criminal records mean you aren't allowed to own weapons, and they can be taken from you
4: Ownership/sale is illegal with exceptions (although from what I have read these are fairly loosely applied)
5: Specific permits to shoot weapons
Superstartran do you think applying some parts of the Swiss system to US law would be a good thing?
If so, which parts would you like to see applied to the US, and which parts wouldn't you?
It looks to me like this is a system that works well in Switzerland, although it has been designed for Switzerland and certainly wouldn't export particularly well. There's a cultural attitude at play where I would see this kind of system as very 'European' in nature. I'm not even sure what I mean by that, I know its vague but its a feeling I have.
However, if more gun control is being considered, America could certainly take some inspiration from these systems and laws. well, many of what you mentioned are already in place in the US. the majority of states require a license to carry, i think there are only like 6-7 that are unrestricted in that sense. people convicted of a felony are banned for life. automatic weapons are already quite heavily regulated. transfers of machineguns and other NFA weapons, including suppressors, must all be recorded on a federal registry. specific permits to shoot weapons is a silly concept to me. if you are already legally allowed to own such a weapon, i don't see how requiring a permit to use it at a range will prevent you from going postal with it. pro-gunners will be more likely to entertain legislation if it isn't a one way street. the word 'compromise' is used a lot, except it implies that both sides need to give a bit. what ends up happening is, the anti-gunners back off a little on their demands, and then claim they've made a compromise. there two issues that come to my mind, that pro-gunners would like to see legislation relaxed in. one is concealed carry reciprocity, which would require states to recognise carry permits issued in other states. the other is the removal of suppressors from the NFA. suppressors have many legitimate uses, and are quite unpracticable for your average criminal.
You do realize, that a compromise can only result in a one way street if the status quo is already at the end of the road? In the US, the gun owner can not get something out of the deal, because he already has everything he could ever want.
I don't understand why the concept of permits to shoot a weapon is hard to understand for you. THe Swiss model is designed to allow citizens to own guns at home, because they already have their service gun there anyway, but do not allow you to use them. They are for war. Not for your leisure. Not for self defense in a home invasion. And it resuts in a system where those guns are sitting in a drawer somehwere in the house and are never touched.
Could that system be used by a mentally unstable person to commit mass murder? Yes, it could. And it probably will. If we wait a few hundred years to get statisically significant numbers of dead people, Japan will be safer from these kind of things then Switzerland.
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On May 25 2018 01:23 Broetchenholer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2018 21:17 ahswtini wrote:On May 24 2018 20:54 Jockmcplop wrote:
So we have in Switzerland:
1: The ability of the police to check up on people with automatic weapons
2: Carry/conceal licenses for weapons
3: Criminal records mean you aren't allowed to own weapons, and they can be taken from you
4: Ownership/sale is illegal with exceptions (although from what I have read these are fairly loosely applied)
5: Specific permits to shoot weapons
Superstartran do you think applying some parts of the Swiss system to US law would be a good thing?
If so, which parts would you like to see applied to the US, and which parts wouldn't you?
It looks to me like this is a system that works well in Switzerland, although it has been designed for Switzerland and certainly wouldn't export particularly well. There's a cultural attitude at play where I would see this kind of system as very 'European' in nature. I'm not even sure what I mean by that, I know its vague but its a feeling I have.
However, if more gun control is being considered, America could certainly take some inspiration from these systems and laws. well, many of what you mentioned are already in place in the US. the majority of states require a license to carry, i think there are only like 6-7 that are unrestricted in that sense. people convicted of a felony are banned for life. automatic weapons are already quite heavily regulated. transfers of machineguns and other NFA weapons, including suppressors, must all be recorded on a federal registry. specific permits to shoot weapons is a silly concept to me. if you are already legally allowed to own such a weapon, i don't see how requiring a permit to use it at a range will prevent you from going postal with it. pro-gunners will be more likely to entertain legislation if it isn't a one way street. the word 'compromise' is used a lot, except it implies that both sides need to give a bit. what ends up happening is, the anti-gunners back off a little on their demands, and then claim they've made a compromise. there two issues that come to my mind, that pro-gunners would like to see legislation relaxed in. one is concealed carry reciprocity, which would require states to recognise carry permits issued in other states. the other is the removal of suppressors from the NFA. suppressors have many legitimate uses, and are quite unpracticable for your average criminal. You do realize, that a compromise can only result in a one way street if the status quo is already at the end of the road? In the US, the gun owner can not get something out of the deal, because he already has everything he could ever want. I don't understand why the concept of permits to shoot a weapon is hard to understand for you. THe Swiss model is designed to allow citizens to own guns at home, because they already have their service gun there anyway, but do not allow you to use them. They are for war. Not for your leisure. Not for self defense in a home invasion. And it resuts in a system where those guns are sitting in a drawer somehwere in the house and are never touched. Could that system be used by a mentally unstable person to commit mass murder? Yes, it could. And it probably will. If we wait a few hundred years to get statisically significant numbers of dead people, Japan will be safer from these kind of things then Switzerland.
Because why can't they amass a collection of weapons just for shits and giggles? The same people who say they enjoy sport shooting or shooting for fun, don't think that anything bad will ever happen to them or because of them. They're innocent in every single shooting in the US. Because THEY are responsible and sensible gun owners. They don't think more needs to be done to protect the population at large, because THEY didn't do anything wrong. So why should they be punished?
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The interesting part about the Swiss system is how it requires the citizen to obtain their own records and submit them. It removes the easily undermined system of records data bases used for background checks and puts everything in the hands of the citizen. This means that the records systems have to be easily accessible, in a clear format for the citizens obtain. And it takes much of the burden off of gun dealers as well.
Now the US licenses per state, so it would need to be adjusted for each state and allow for citizens to easily obtain their records if they moved, but it would be a much better system for the US to use. Both from a gun safety standpoint, but also from a criminal justice standpoint. Citizen would have more direct contact with the criminal justice system and have a better understand of those record systems.
Plus it would pave the way for nationwide licenses, which should be gun safety advocate’s dream. Carry guns across state lines with this well regulated federal license.
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On May 24 2018 20:54 Jockmcplop wrote:
So we have in Switzerland:
1: The ability of the police to check up on people with automatic weapons
2: Carry/conceal licenses for weapons
3: Criminal records mean you aren't allowed to own weapons, and they can be taken from you
4: Ownership/sale is illegal with exceptions (although from what I have read these are fairly loosely applied)
5: Specific permits to shoot weapons
Superstartran do you think applying some parts of the Swiss system to US law would be a good thing?
If so, which parts would you like to see applied to the US, and which parts wouldn't you?
It looks to me like this is a system that works well in Switzerland, although it has been designed for Switzerland and certainly wouldn't export particularly well. There's a cultural attitude at play where I would see this kind of system as very 'European' in nature. I'm not even sure what I mean by that, I know its vague but its a feeling I have.
However, if more gun control is being considered, America could certainly take some inspiration from these systems and laws.
It's not just the system in place here; people don't realize that Switzerland already automatically has 200k-250k fully automatic military issue rifles at any given point in time, and yet you don't see any kind of mass shootings. Alot of this comes down to their culture surrounding firearms, and what the purpose of the firearm is used for. Yes, the system works, but the system only works if the culture and society in general accepts that system.
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2774 Posts
On May 25 2018 05:38 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2018 20:54 Jockmcplop wrote:
So we have in Switzerland:
1: The ability of the police to check up on people with automatic weapons
2: Carry/conceal licenses for weapons
3: Criminal records mean you aren't allowed to own weapons, and they can be taken from you
4: Ownership/sale is illegal with exceptions (although from what I have read these are fairly loosely applied)
5: Specific permits to shoot weapons
Superstartran do you think applying some parts of the Swiss system to US law would be a good thing?
If so, which parts would you like to see applied to the US, and which parts wouldn't you?
It looks to me like this is a system that works well in Switzerland, although it has been designed for Switzerland and certainly wouldn't export particularly well. There's a cultural attitude at play where I would see this kind of system as very 'European' in nature. I'm not even sure what I mean by that, I know its vague but its a feeling I have.
However, if more gun control is being considered, America could certainly take some inspiration from these systems and laws. It's not just the system in place here; people don't realize that Switzerland already automatically has 200k-250k fully automatic military issue rifles at any given point in time, and yet you don't see any kind of mass shootings. Alot of this comes down to their culture surrounding firearms, and what the purpose of the firearm is used for. Yes, the system works, but the system only works if the culture and society in general accepts that system.
Fairly certain they're converted into semi-automatic rifles. If they choose to purchase a rifle when they finish their service that is.
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On May 25 2018 05:38 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2018 20:54 Jockmcplop wrote:
So we have in Switzerland:
1: The ability of the police to check up on people with automatic weapons
2: Carry/conceal licenses for weapons
3: Criminal records mean you aren't allowed to own weapons, and they can be taken from you
4: Ownership/sale is illegal with exceptions (although from what I have read these are fairly loosely applied)
5: Specific permits to shoot weapons
Superstartran do you think applying some parts of the Swiss system to US law would be a good thing?
If so, which parts would you like to see applied to the US, and which parts wouldn't you?
It looks to me like this is a system that works well in Switzerland, although it has been designed for Switzerland and certainly wouldn't export particularly well. There's a cultural attitude at play where I would see this kind of system as very 'European' in nature. I'm not even sure what I mean by that, I know its vague but its a feeling I have.
However, if more gun control is being considered, America could certainly take some inspiration from these systems and laws. It's not just the system in place here; people don't realize that Switzerland already automatically has 200k-250k fully automatic military issue rifles at any given point in time, and yet you don't see any kind of mass shootings. Alot of this comes down to their culture surrounding firearms, and what the purpose of the firearm is used for. Yes, the system works, but the system only works if the culture and society in general accepts that system.
The reddit poster you linked even says the military rifles are converted to semi-auto.
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On May 25 2018 05:38 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2018 20:54 Jockmcplop wrote:
So we have in Switzerland:
1: The ability of the police to check up on people with automatic weapons
2: Carry/conceal licenses for weapons
3: Criminal records mean you aren't allowed to own weapons, and they can be taken from you
4: Ownership/sale is illegal with exceptions (although from what I have read these are fairly loosely applied)
5: Specific permits to shoot weapons
Superstartran do you think applying some parts of the Swiss system to US law would be a good thing?
If so, which parts would you like to see applied to the US, and which parts wouldn't you?
It looks to me like this is a system that works well in Switzerland, although it has been designed for Switzerland and certainly wouldn't export particularly well. There's a cultural attitude at play where I would see this kind of system as very 'European' in nature. I'm not even sure what I mean by that, I know its vague but its a feeling I have.
However, if more gun control is being considered, America could certainly take some inspiration from these systems and laws. It's not just the system in place here; people don't realize that Switzerland already automatically has 200k-250k fully automatic military issue rifles at any given point in time, and yet you don't see any kind of mass shootings. Alot of this comes down to their culture surrounding firearms, and what the purpose of the firearm is used for. Yes, the system works, but the system only works if the culture and society in general accepts that system. Judging from your posts, you appear to be very far from the swiss gun culture. In fact you seem to be promoting a gun culture completely opposite to the swiss gun culture. You insist you current American gun controls, but yet you turn around 10 pages later to say that you support swiss gun laws and culture without any apparent idea of what that entails.
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On May 25 2018 06:40 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2018 05:38 superstartran wrote:On May 24 2018 20:54 Jockmcplop wrote:
So we have in Switzerland:
1: The ability of the police to check up on people with automatic weapons
2: Carry/conceal licenses for weapons
3: Criminal records mean you aren't allowed to own weapons, and they can be taken from you
4: Ownership/sale is illegal with exceptions (although from what I have read these are fairly loosely applied)
5: Specific permits to shoot weapons
Superstartran do you think applying some parts of the Swiss system to US law would be a good thing?
If so, which parts would you like to see applied to the US, and which parts wouldn't you?
It looks to me like this is a system that works well in Switzerland, although it has been designed for Switzerland and certainly wouldn't export particularly well. There's a cultural attitude at play where I would see this kind of system as very 'European' in nature. I'm not even sure what I mean by that, I know its vague but its a feeling I have.
However, if more gun control is being considered, America could certainly take some inspiration from these systems and laws. It's not just the system in place here; people don't realize that Switzerland already automatically has 200k-250k fully automatic military issue rifles at any given point in time, and yet you don't see any kind of mass shootings. Alot of this comes down to their culture surrounding firearms, and what the purpose of the firearm is used for. Yes, the system works, but the system only works if the culture and society in general accepts that system. The reddit poster you linked even says the military rifles are converted to semi-auto.
I knew I read that some place. But this makes it way better.
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On May 25 2018 06:21 Nixer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2018 05:38 superstartran wrote:On May 24 2018 20:54 Jockmcplop wrote:
So we have in Switzerland:
1: The ability of the police to check up on people with automatic weapons
2: Carry/conceal licenses for weapons
3: Criminal records mean you aren't allowed to own weapons, and they can be taken from you
4: Ownership/sale is illegal with exceptions (although from what I have read these are fairly loosely applied)
5: Specific permits to shoot weapons
Superstartran do you think applying some parts of the Swiss system to US law would be a good thing?
If so, which parts would you like to see applied to the US, and which parts wouldn't you?
It looks to me like this is a system that works well in Switzerland, although it has been designed for Switzerland and certainly wouldn't export particularly well. There's a cultural attitude at play where I would see this kind of system as very 'European' in nature. I'm not even sure what I mean by that, I know its vague but its a feeling I have.
However, if more gun control is being considered, America could certainly take some inspiration from these systems and laws. It's not just the system in place here; people don't realize that Switzerland already automatically has 200k-250k fully automatic military issue rifles at any given point in time, and yet you don't see any kind of mass shootings. Alot of this comes down to their culture surrounding firearms, and what the purpose of the firearm is used for. Yes, the system works, but the system only works if the culture and society in general accepts that system. Fairly certain they're converted into semi-automatic rifles. If they choose to purchase a rifle when they finish their service that is.
There are currently 160k active duty soldiers, my bad. That still doesn't dispute the fact that there are a significant amount of fully automatic weapons floating around (not including the ones held in the hands of civilians).
On May 25 2018 06:41 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2018 05:38 superstartran wrote:On May 24 2018 20:54 Jockmcplop wrote:
So we have in Switzerland:
1: The ability of the police to check up on people with automatic weapons
2: Carry/conceal licenses for weapons
3: Criminal records mean you aren't allowed to own weapons, and they can be taken from you
4: Ownership/sale is illegal with exceptions (although from what I have read these are fairly loosely applied)
5: Specific permits to shoot weapons
Superstartran do you think applying some parts of the Swiss system to US law would be a good thing?
If so, which parts would you like to see applied to the US, and which parts wouldn't you?
It looks to me like this is a system that works well in Switzerland, although it has been designed for Switzerland and certainly wouldn't export particularly well. There's a cultural attitude at play where I would see this kind of system as very 'European' in nature. I'm not even sure what I mean by that, I know its vague but its a feeling I have.
However, if more gun control is being considered, America could certainly take some inspiration from these systems and laws. It's not just the system in place here; people don't realize that Switzerland already automatically has 200k-250k fully automatic military issue rifles at any given point in time, and yet you don't see any kind of mass shootings. Alot of this comes down to their culture surrounding firearms, and what the purpose of the firearm is used for. Yes, the system works, but the system only works if the culture and society in general accepts that system. Judging from your posts, you appear to be very far from the swiss gun culture. In fact you seem to be promoting a gun culture completely opposite to the swiss gun culture. You insist you current American gun controls, but yet you turn around 10 pages later to say that you support swiss gun laws and culture without any apparent idea of what that entails.
Judging your post you're a gun control advocate who really would just rather ban guns then actually do anything about it. So what?
On May 25 2018 06:40 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2018 05:38 superstartran wrote:On May 24 2018 20:54 Jockmcplop wrote:
So we have in Switzerland:
1: The ability of the police to check up on people with automatic weapons
2: Carry/conceal licenses for weapons
3: Criminal records mean you aren't allowed to own weapons, and they can be taken from you
4: Ownership/sale is illegal with exceptions (although from what I have read these are fairly loosely applied)
5: Specific permits to shoot weapons
Superstartran do you think applying some parts of the Swiss system to US law would be a good thing?
If so, which parts would you like to see applied to the US, and which parts wouldn't you?
It looks to me like this is a system that works well in Switzerland, although it has been designed for Switzerland and certainly wouldn't export particularly well. There's a cultural attitude at play where I would see this kind of system as very 'European' in nature. I'm not even sure what I mean by that, I know its vague but its a feeling I have.
However, if more gun control is being considered, America could certainly take some inspiration from these systems and laws. It's not just the system in place here; people don't realize that Switzerland already automatically has 200k-250k fully automatic military issue rifles at any given point in time, and yet you don't see any kind of mass shootings. Alot of this comes down to their culture surrounding firearms, and what the purpose of the firearm is used for. Yes, the system works, but the system only works if the culture and society in general accepts that system. The reddit poster you linked even says the military rifles are converted to semi-auto.
What part of 'active' duty do you not understand selective reader?
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Northern Ireland22207 Posts
On May 25 2018 01:23 Broetchenholer wrote:
You do realize, that a compromise can only result in a one way street if the status quo is already at the end of the road? In the US, the gun owner can not get something out of the deal, because he already has everything he could ever want.
the gun owner absolutely does not have everything he could ever want, don't be stupid. the two things i mentioned are two big areas that i'm sure gun owners would be happy to negotiate over. they are also things that have a minimal impact on public safety. if you're going to sit in your entrenched position, don't be surprised that the people who you're trying to put restrictions on, are going to dig in as well.
On May 25 2018 01:23 Broetchenholer wrote:
I don't understand why the concept of permits to shoot a weapon is hard to understand for you. THe Swiss model is designed to allow citizens to own guns at home, because they already have their service gun there anyway, but do not allow you to use them. They are for war. Not for your leisure. Not for self defense in a home invasion. And it resuts in a system where those guns are sitting in a drawer somehwere in the house and are never touched.
if the owner of such a gun is not trusted enough to use it without a special permit, then why are they allowed it in the first place? if someone were to decide to go on a rampage with such a gun, will they really be stopped because they don't have the permit to shoot?
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EPT
