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If you're seeing this topic then another mass shooting hap…

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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action.
Ayaz2810
Profile Joined September 2011
United States2763 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-14 15:21:25
June 14 2016 15:20 GMT
#12121
It won't chamge. Gun culture is like religion. Children are indocrinated early, and then are so loaded up with propaganda, that they just follow in the family footsteps without the critical thinking skills or both sides of the story needed to not be a fuckwit.
Vrtra Vanquisher/Tiamat Trouncer/World Serpent Slayer
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44898 Posts
June 14 2016 16:09 GMT
#12122
Throughout social media, there has been a sudden increase in the number of "shots fired" at Republicans because of the (tragic) shots fired inside the gay club.

And rightly so. Republicans need to take responsibility for perpetuating the hatred of LGBT and other minorities, which in turn helps create an environment where they're targeted and killed. No new bills, no new proposals, no new reactions besides "thoughts and prayers lulz". The core principle of prejudice is found in both religious fundamentalism and the modern Republican Party. And the death toll increases every day because of it.

Here are some of the pictures (large/ not resized):

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"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
LennX
Profile Joined October 2010
4557 Posts
June 14 2016 17:04 GMT
#12123
On June 14 2016 17:52 Wegandi wrote:
[...]

First, AR-15's are not military-grade weapons. They are a semi-automatic rifle based off 1960's era weaponry. No one in the military uses an AR-15 and would not be caught with one since the military uses SELECT FIRE rifles. (I should know I was in the service myself)

[...]



AR-15 is not based off a 1960s design but a 1950s AR-10 design. The military equivalent of AR-15 is the M-16 rifle which most armies in the world are still using and its variants.

A stock AR-15 doesn't have selective fire of 3round burst or full auto but there are other legal and illegal internal modifications that may be done thus making it similar to a M16.

While the US considers AR-15 to be not a military grade assault rifle in the eyes of the law due to its lack of full auto, they do however sell variants of it to certain overseas militaries. Other countries also manufacture their own variants of AR-15s, some of which are military grade.

Any weapon that can kill deserves respect, military grade or not and should be handled properly.
Mute user function on TL; http://www.liquiddota.com/blogs/491245-mute-annoying-users-in-lr-threads
Ayaz2810
Profile Joined September 2011
United States2763 Posts
June 14 2016 17:11 GMT
#12124
Regardless, a military grade weapon with the 3 round burst or full auto options removed is still clearly a military grade weapon designed for military operations. Thats like saying your truck for hauling things is no longer a truck because you covered up the bed.
Vrtra Vanquisher/Tiamat Trouncer/World Serpent Slayer
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
June 14 2016 17:18 GMT
#12125
On June 14 2016 14:01 oBlade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 14 2016 10:52 oneofthem wrote:
why is that relevant? it is a policy question.

for an agency already overstretched on resources, you expect them to be happy about a resource intensive and inefficient investigation order instead of just cutting off the firearm with a easy disqualifier like, you are a terrorist suspect?

The FBI should be positioned to have insight into the effect of the FBI having more power to suspend people's right to buy guns. Are you saying they would obviously want it because it's easier than having to investigate people and do actual police work? That's weak, I want to know the right way to do it. In order for this to work, there would have to be a list of people that were considered too low a risk to continue investigating, but high enough a risk that if you denied legal guns to the entire group, you would stop a significant number of attacks (or else what's the point). But if the number of attacks you objectively could stop was high enough, why weren't these people risky enough to have open investigations?

Some things do just come from nowhere. How big do you estimate this class of people is that would get put on a secret list by an intelligence agency, without their knowledge, and have to spend forever in court trying to find answers and then somehow exonerate themselves to restore a their rights? Around 13,000 people, like the no-fly list, or around 400,000 people, like all terror watchlists?

As I tried to explain earlier, if you stop people from buying guns legally, they also then do it under the radar, which I assume the FBI doesn't want unless it means the people are buying from undercovers. What I want is law enforcement agencies to liaise with each other more about these types of cases, including more things being tracked automatically in other agencies' records.

what part of it being a policy question don't you understand? the fbi is ALREADY tasked with preventing guns from getting into the hands of terrorist suspects. all it takes is a single disqualifying legal category in the already existing CT loop of the NICS procedure, so that more background checks involving terrorism suspects return a deny or delay.

We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Incognoto
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
France10239 Posts
June 14 2016 17:39 GMT
#12126
On June 15 2016 01:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Throughout social media, there has been a sudden increase in the number of "shots fired" at Republicans because of the (tragic) shots fired inside the gay club.

And rightly so. Republicans need to take responsibility for perpetuating the hatred of LGBT and other minorities, which in turn helps create an environment where they're targeted and killed. No new bills, no new proposals, no new reactions besides "thoughts and prayers lulz". The core principle of prejudice is found in both religious fundamentalism and the modern Republican Party. And the death toll increases every day because of it.

Here are some of the pictures (large/ not resized):

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not that i like any of those people, but to me it's a little cheap to blame republicans for the shooting? they're idiots in many ways but to say they set up the conditions for terrorism is a stretch, imo

are you going to blame trump, cruz or palin for radicalization of the french terrorists?

maybe omar was just a bad person and the government cant actually mind control people into hate crimes

either way, not really a gun control issue either; you're discussing hate crime which is unrelated
maru lover forever
GoTuNk!
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Chile4591 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-14 17:51:44
June 14 2016 17:50 GMT
#12127
On June 15 2016 01:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Throughout social media, there has been a sudden increase in the number of "shots fired" at Republicans because of the (tragic) shots fired inside the gay club.

And rightly so. Republicans need to take responsibility for perpetuating the hatred of LGBT and other minorities, which in turn helps create an environment where they're targeted and killed. No new bills, no new proposals, no new reactions besides "thoughts and prayers lulz". The core principle of prejudice is found in both religious fundamentalism and the modern Republican Party. And the death toll increases every day because of it.

Here are some of the pictures (large/ not resized):

+ Show Spoiler +
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Geez, blaming republicans for this is so far fetched that I can make the counter argument repeating your words.

"And rightly so. Muslims need to take responsibility for perpetuating the hatred of LGBT and other minorities, which in turn helps create an environment where they're targeted and killed."

But I guess we can blame republicans aswell... given the shooter was a white male republican, and not a Muslim Democrat.
oBlade
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States5740 Posts
June 14 2016 18:00 GMT
#12128
On June 15 2016 01:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Throughout social media, there has been a sudden increase in the number of "shots fired" at Republicans because of the (tragic) shots fired inside the gay club.

And rightly so. Republicans need to take responsibility for perpetuating the hatred of LGBT and other minorities, which in turn helps create an environment where they're targeted and killed. No new bills, no new proposals, no new reactions besides "thoughts and prayers lulz". The core principle of prejudice is found in both religious fundamentalism and the modern Republican Party. And the death toll increases every day because of it.

The death toll increases because it's cumulative. Cumulative things can only get bigger. Murder rates in the USA have been decreasing (I'm guessing Republicans can't take any responsibility for that, though). Hate crime laws exist and are used, what bills are missing?
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Not every evil in the world is rooted in the Republican Party. If a shooting happened in a gun free zone, and you saw shit like this going around social media, you'd rightly think it was as despicably childish as what you're actually relaying to us now.
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"I am Seung-hui Cho."

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"I am Mainak Sarkar."

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"I am Adam Lanza."
"I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne
biology]major
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2253 Posts
June 14 2016 18:06 GMT
#12129
On June 15 2016 01:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Throughout social media, there has been a sudden increase in the number of "shots fired" at Republicans because of the (tragic) shots fired inside the gay club.

And rightly so. Republicans need to take responsibility for perpetuating the hatred of LGBT and other minorities, which in turn helps create an environment where they're targeted and killed. No new bills, no new proposals, no new reactions besides "thoughts and prayers lulz". The core principle of prejudice is found in both religious fundamentalism and the modern Republican Party. And the death toll increases every day because of it.

Here are some of the pictures (large/ not resized):

+ Show Spoiler +
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This is a pretty good way for people to never take you seriously
Question.?
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
June 14 2016 18:13 GMT
#12130
On June 15 2016 03:06 biology]major wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 15 2016 01:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Throughout social media, there has been a sudden increase in the number of "shots fired" at Republicans because of the (tragic) shots fired inside the gay club.

And rightly so. Republicans need to take responsibility for perpetuating the hatred of LGBT and other minorities, which in turn helps create an environment where they're targeted and killed. No new bills, no new proposals, no new reactions besides "thoughts and prayers lulz". The core principle of prejudice is found in both religious fundamentalism and the modern Republican Party. And the death toll increases every day because of it.

Here are some of the pictures (large/ not resized):

+ Show Spoiler +
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This is a pretty good way for people to never take you seriously

I take seriously and think he had made a good point about the constant demonization of gays by social conservatives. And the efforts by the GOP to court those social conservatives as voters has allowed that demonization to continue and sustain itself.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Reaps
Profile Joined June 2012
United Kingdom1280 Posts
June 14 2016 18:15 GMT
#12131
On June 15 2016 01:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Throughout social media, there has been a sudden increase in the number of "shots fired" at Republicans because of the (tragic) shots fired inside the gay club.

And rightly so. Republicans need to take responsibility for perpetuating the hatred of LGBT and other minorities, which in turn helps create an environment where they're targeted and killed. No new bills, no new proposals, no new reactions besides "thoughts and prayers lulz". The core principle of prejudice is found in both religious fundamentalism and the modern Republican Party. And the death toll increases every day because of it.

Here are some of the pictures (large/ not resized):

+ Show Spoiler +
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Disgusting post.
Ayaz2810
Profile Joined September 2011
United States2763 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-14 18:19:39
June 14 2016 18:17 GMT
#12132
On June 15 2016 03:06 biology]major wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 15 2016 01:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Throughout social media, there has been a sudden increase in the number of "shots fired" at Republicans because of the (tragic) shots fired inside the gay club.

And rightly so. Republicans need to take responsibility for perpetuating the hatred of LGBT and other minorities, which in turn helps create an environment where they're targeted and killed. No new bills, no new proposals, no new reactions besides "thoughts and prayers lulz". The core principle of prejudice is found in both religious fundamentalism and the modern Republican Party. And the death toll increases every day because of it.

Here are some of the pictures (large/ not resized):

+ Show Spoiler +
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This is a pretty good way for people to never take you seriously


How do you figure? The right and the religious have been demonizing LGBT people for a long ass time. Based on the fact that the shooter went to that club something like twice a month for 3 years tells me he was a closeted homosexual who was ashamed. Why was he ashamed? Thats right, people like those in the pictures, and in some cases, those exact people. Pair that with what islam is (lets not delude ourselves), and you have a recipe for what happened. Politicians on the right and the religious are to blame. That's not a far stretch for a lot of people....
Vrtra Vanquisher/Tiamat Trouncer/World Serpent Slayer
Ayaz2810
Profile Joined September 2011
United States2763 Posts
June 14 2016 18:18 GMT
#12133
On June 15 2016 03:13 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 15 2016 03:06 biology]major wrote:
On June 15 2016 01:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Throughout social media, there has been a sudden increase in the number of "shots fired" at Republicans because of the (tragic) shots fired inside the gay club.

And rightly so. Republicans need to take responsibility for perpetuating the hatred of LGBT and other minorities, which in turn helps create an environment where they're targeted and killed. No new bills, no new proposals, no new reactions besides "thoughts and prayers lulz". The core principle of prejudice is found in both religious fundamentalism and the modern Republican Party. And the death toll increases every day because of it.

Here are some of the pictures (large/ not resized):

+ Show Spoiler +
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This is a pretty good way for people to never take you seriously

I take seriously and think he had made a good point about the constant demonization of gays by social conservatives. And the efforts by the GOP to court those social conservatives as voters has allowed that demonization to continue and sustain itself.



Exactly what I was getting at in my post.
Vrtra Vanquisher/Tiamat Trouncer/World Serpent Slayer
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44898 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-14 19:03:35
June 14 2016 18:29 GMT
#12134
On June 15 2016 02:39 Incognoto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 15 2016 01:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Throughout social media, there has been a sudden increase in the number of "shots fired" at Republicans because of the (tragic) shots fired inside the gay club.

And rightly so. Republicans need to take responsibility for perpetuating the hatred of LGBT and other minorities, which in turn helps create an environment where they're targeted and killed. No new bills, no new proposals, no new reactions besides "thoughts and prayers lulz". The core principle of prejudice is found in both religious fundamentalism and the modern Republican Party. And the death toll increases every day because of it.

Here are some of the pictures (large/ not resized):

+ Show Spoiler +
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not that i like any of those people, but to me it's a little cheap to blame republicans for the shooting? they're idiots in many ways but to say they set up the conditions for terrorism is a stretch, imo


Republicans are blocking the ability to even do research on gun violence in America, let alone allow us to make any changes. Furthermore, they're continuously trying to label and treat minority groups (such as LGBT) as second-class citizens. When the status quo is a daily mass shooting and discrimination in this country, and one political party refuses to acknowledge it and do anything about it, they're part of the problem. Saying "thoughts and prayers" is the most hollow and offensive thing a politician could say, seeing as how he could actually be trying to do something meaningful in response to these tragedies.

On June 15 2016 02:50 GoTuNk! wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 15 2016 01:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Throughout social media, there has been a sudden increase in the number of "shots fired" at Republicans because of the (tragic) shots fired inside the gay club.

And rightly so. Republicans need to take responsibility for perpetuating the hatred of LGBT and other minorities, which in turn helps create an environment where they're targeted and killed. No new bills, no new proposals, no new reactions besides "thoughts and prayers lulz". The core principle of prejudice is found in both religious fundamentalism and the modern Republican Party. And the death toll increases every day because of it.

Here are some of the pictures (large/ not resized):

+ Show Spoiler +
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Geez, blaming republicans for this is so far fetched that I can make the counter argument repeating your words.

"And rightly so. Muslims need to take responsibility for perpetuating the hatred of LGBT and other minorities, which in turn helps create an environment where they're targeted and killed."


Muslims aren't controlling Congress; there is not a majority of Muslims who are deciding whether or not to actually take steps towards properly assessing and dealing with these situations. It's Republicans.

On June 15 2016 03:00 oBlade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 15 2016 01:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Throughout social media, there has been a sudden increase in the number of "shots fired" at Republicans because of the (tragic) shots fired inside the gay club.

And rightly so. Republicans need to take responsibility for perpetuating the hatred of LGBT and other minorities, which in turn helps create an environment where they're targeted and killed. No new bills, no new proposals, no new reactions besides "thoughts and prayers lulz". The core principle of prejudice is found in both religious fundamentalism and the modern Republican Party. And the death toll increases every day because of it.

The death toll increases because it's cumulative. Cumulative things can only get bigger.


lol yes I know that The intended emphasis was on "every day"- the surprisingly common frequency in which gun-related deaths occur. And yet each day goes by and nothing changes. They shrug and say, "Ehhhhh whaddya gonna do. It happens."

On June 15 2016 03:06 biology]major wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 15 2016 01:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Throughout social media, there has been a sudden increase in the number of "shots fired" at Republicans because of the (tragic) shots fired inside the gay club.

And rightly so. Republicans need to take responsibility for perpetuating the hatred of LGBT and other minorities, which in turn helps create an environment where they're targeted and killed. No new bills, no new proposals, no new reactions besides "thoughts and prayers lulz". The core principle of prejudice is found in both religious fundamentalism and the modern Republican Party. And the death toll increases every day because of it.

Here are some of the pictures (large/ not resized):

+ Show Spoiler +
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This is a pretty good way for people to never take you seriously


Can you please elaborate why as opposed to just posting a one-liner comment like that? A real response would allow me to attempt to clarify my position and discuss points with you (as I've tried to do with the previous responders). Thanks.

On June 15 2016 03:15 Reaps wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 15 2016 01:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Throughout social media, there has been a sudden increase in the number of "shots fired" at Republicans because of the (tragic) shots fired inside the gay club.

And rightly so. Republicans need to take responsibility for perpetuating the hatred of LGBT and other minorities, which in turn helps create an environment where they're targeted and killed. No new bills, no new proposals, no new reactions besides "thoughts and prayers lulz". The core principle of prejudice is found in both religious fundamentalism and the modern Republican Party. And the death toll increases every day because of it.

Here are some of the pictures (large/ not resized):

+ Show Spoiler +
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Disgusting post.


Thank you for your contribution.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44898 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-14 18:32:31
June 14 2016 18:32 GMT
#12135
Double post
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12300 Posts
June 14 2016 18:35 GMT
#12136
On June 14 2016 18:02 Wegandi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 14 2016 17:58 Simberto wrote:
I am pretty sure that there is a very large overlap between the set of people that wish to regulate guns and the set of people that wish to decriminalize drugs.

I do not think i want to debate with you on the other subjects, you appear to have your opinion and i do not think that you are in the mindset to actually have a discussion, you just want to shout at people.


I only get annoyed at hoity-toity Europeans who are self-righteous.


Does it ever strike you that this comes down to you thinking it's pretentious for people to have opinions?
No will to live, no wish to die
bluzi
Profile Joined May 2011
4703 Posts
June 14 2016 18:45 GMT
#12137
On June 14 2016 11:57 dontforgetosmile wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 14 2016 11:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On June 14 2016 09:36 dontforgetosmile wrote:
On June 13 2016 18:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On June 13 2016 12:40 dontforgetosmile wrote:
On June 13 2016 12:38 Nebuchad wrote:
On June 13 2016 11:55 dontforgetosmile wrote:
On June 13 2016 06:09 Simberto wrote:
Well, american gun culture is just utterly alien to me, and a lot of other europeans. Feel free to explain it better. So far i have heard "It is really not like your impression of it".

So i will write my impression now, and you can feel free to correct it:

I am ignoring the obvious reason ones here (Hunting, defense against animals in wilderness) that are not really something most people object and which are also quite common in europe.

Reasons to own guns are usually named as one of the two:

(1) Recreational
(2) Self-Defense
(3) Protection against the evil government

Recreational means shooting stuff for fun and possibly roasting bacon on rifles.

Self-Defense does not actually appear to work as far as i know, as you are far more likely to be in danger if you own a gun than if you don't.

Protection against the government is just silly.

The big cons are:
(a) A lot of guys get intentionally shot.
(b) a lot of people get accidentally shot.

The reason for (a) is that if there are more guns around, more crimes involve guns, and a crime involving guns has a much higher chance of getting people shot. The reason for (b) is similar. If there are more guns around, it is much more likely that a five-year old will shoot his sister.

To me, the cons just outweigh the pros massively. Everyone is more safe with fewer guns around, and i don't see what is gained if you have more guns around. Please explain this american gun culture in terms a european can understand, because to me it just seems that a bunch of people are incredibly irrational in a way that makes no sense whatsoever to me and that i simply can not comprehend. (Though to be honest you do have Donald Trump as a presidential candidate, so maybe that is indeed that reason)

think about how absurdly dangerous it is driving a car at freeway speeds, yet no one hesitates to do it even with small children in the car.


Which is why we're all grateful that the automobile industry lobby never came around to the idea that it would be against freedom to force people to have a license before they are allowed to drive, by the way.

that's irrelevant to the fact that more people still die as a result from cars than die from firearms (aside from suicide).


You can't just compare guns to cars because of high death tolls; the primary purpose of a car- transportation of people and goods- is a necessary day-to-day priority for people. We also have an immense amount of safety measures and penalties in place to minimize dangers and harm. On the other hand, the purpose of a gun is for shooting things. In a car accident, there is a failure of some sort, be it human or mechanical; on the other hand, when a gun goes off and harms someone, it's serving its primary purpose.

all the things you've listed only serve to justify the death of people caused by cars. is faster transportation so necessary that you're ok with children and teenagers dying in car accidents? more people are dying because cars exist, factoring in the primary purpose only serves to qualify death, don't you agree?


I don't think you read my post. The primary purpose of a car (or any mode of transportation) isn't to kill people. The fact that there are daily dangers involved is exactly why we have an insane number of precautions and regulations and safeguards, both in who drives and how safe our cars are. It would be amazing if gun safety was taken anywhere near as seriously as car safety.

i don't think you understand that the purpose of a car, nor the fact that there are currently regulations applied to ownership of one, have any effect on the amount of people dead as a result.

you're really grasping at straws here. i'm just trying to show you that you are completely fine with the amount of people dying from car use. you are fine with this in spite of the fact that this number is higher than the number of people killed involving gun violence.

why is it ok for more people to die in one way and not ok for less people to die in another?


Oh god.... its not real life anymore...., the quetion is the benfits you get for the risk you take , no one would care about the guns in america if there werent so many cases of shooting like the one we just saw , the benfit is whats in question if you can point us to the BENFITS it will be great !!! we see the risks all the time ......I can point out some small benfits modern transportation has provided to human kind.
oBlade
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States5740 Posts
June 14 2016 18:48 GMT
#12138
On June 15 2016 02:18 oneofthem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 14 2016 14:01 oBlade wrote:
On June 14 2016 10:52 oneofthem wrote:
why is that relevant? it is a policy question.

for an agency already overstretched on resources, you expect them to be happy about a resource intensive and inefficient investigation order instead of just cutting off the firearm with a easy disqualifier like, you are a terrorist suspect?

The FBI should be positioned to have insight into the effect of the FBI having more power to suspend people's right to buy guns. Are you saying they would obviously want it because it's easier than having to investigate people and do actual police work? That's weak, I want to know the right way to do it. In order for this to work, there would have to be a list of people that were considered too low a risk to continue investigating, but high enough a risk that if you denied legal guns to the entire group, you would stop a significant number of attacks (or else what's the point). But if the number of attacks you objectively could stop was high enough, why weren't these people risky enough to have open investigations?

Some things do just come from nowhere. How big do you estimate this class of people is that would get put on a secret list by an intelligence agency, without their knowledge, and have to spend forever in court trying to find answers and then somehow exonerate themselves to restore a their rights? Around 13,000 people, like the no-fly list, or around 400,000 people, like all terror watchlists?

As I tried to explain earlier, if you stop people from buying guns legally, they also then do it under the radar, which I assume the FBI doesn't want unless it means the people are buying from undercovers. What I want is law enforcement agencies to liaise with each other more about these types of cases, including more things being tracked automatically in other agencies' records.

what part of it being a policy question don't you understand?

Never heard of "listen to the generals?"
On June 15 2016 02:18 oneofthem wrote:
the fbi is ALREADY tasked with preventing guns from getting into the hands of terrorist suspects. all it takes is a single disqualifying legal category in the already existing CT loop of the NICS procedure, so that more background checks involving terrorism suspects return a deny or delay.

The FBI is not just a gun-blocking machine. That's only one means of trying to make the country safer. I've tried to get you to explain how many this people you think is supposed to affect and what attacks it's meant to stop that otherwise slip through the FBI's cracks - i.e., whether it can actually save any lives and whether it would be worth the tradeoff of constitutionally protected rights. For example, if the list denied guns to 100,000 people but only stopped 2 murders, it would be stopping fewer murders than you'd expect just from the base rate of the population. What makes more sense is what I said before, have more interagency tracking and records. Alert a department somewhere when someone who was in an investigation that's closed buys a gun so they can decide to take another look if it's warranted.
"I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
June 14 2016 18:57 GMT
#12139
On June 15 2016 03:48 oBlade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 15 2016 02:18 oneofthem wrote:
On June 14 2016 14:01 oBlade wrote:
On June 14 2016 10:52 oneofthem wrote:
why is that relevant? it is a policy question.

for an agency already overstretched on resources, you expect them to be happy about a resource intensive and inefficient investigation order instead of just cutting off the firearm with a easy disqualifier like, you are a terrorist suspect?

The FBI should be positioned to have insight into the effect of the FBI having more power to suspend people's right to buy guns. Are you saying they would obviously want it because it's easier than having to investigate people and do actual police work? That's weak, I want to know the right way to do it. In order for this to work, there would have to be a list of people that were considered too low a risk to continue investigating, but high enough a risk that if you denied legal guns to the entire group, you would stop a significant number of attacks (or else what's the point). But if the number of attacks you objectively could stop was high enough, why weren't these people risky enough to have open investigations?

Some things do just come from nowhere. How big do you estimate this class of people is that would get put on a secret list by an intelligence agency, without their knowledge, and have to spend forever in court trying to find answers and then somehow exonerate themselves to restore a their rights? Around 13,000 people, like the no-fly list, or around 400,000 people, like all terror watchlists?

As I tried to explain earlier, if you stop people from buying guns legally, they also then do it under the radar, which I assume the FBI doesn't want unless it means the people are buying from undercovers. What I want is law enforcement agencies to liaise with each other more about these types of cases, including more things being tracked automatically in other agencies' records.

what part of it being a policy question don't you understand?

Never heard of "listen to the generals?"
Show nested quote +
On June 15 2016 02:18 oneofthem wrote:
the fbi is ALREADY tasked with preventing guns from getting into the hands of terrorist suspects. all it takes is a single disqualifying legal category in the already existing CT loop of the NICS procedure, so that more background checks involving terrorism suspects return a deny or delay.

The FBI is not just a gun-blocking machine. That's only one means of trying to make the country safer. I've tried to get you to explain how many this people you think is supposed to affect and what attacks it's meant to stop that otherwise slip through the FBI's cracks - i.e., whether it can actually save any lives and whether it would be worth the tradeoff of constitutionally protected rights. For example, if the list denied guns to 100,000 people but only stopped 2 murders, it would be stopping fewer murders than you'd expect just from the base rate of the population. What makes more sense is what I said before, have more interagency tracking and records. Alert a department somewhere when someone who was in an investigation that's closed buys a gun so they can decide to take another look if it's warranted.

You are dealing in hypotheticals with ginned up numbers to make your point. The argument is that there should be a system for the FBI to deny a gun sale if they feel the person is dangerous enough. Of course the system you created in your example would not be acceptable. But that does not mean the system shouldn’t exist.

Are you advocating that there should be no way for the FBI or law enforcement to prevent gun sales to people that they suspect will be dangerous? Yes or no. Do not give me your counter question where you demand to know how it would work so you don’t have to answer. Do you believe that the FBI and law enforcement shouldn’t be able to stop gun sales no matter what?
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
thePunGun
Profile Blog Joined January 2016
598 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-14 19:43:12
June 14 2016 19:28 GMT
#12140
On June 15 2016 03:57 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 15 2016 03:48 oBlade wrote:
On June 15 2016 02:18 oneofthem wrote:
On June 14 2016 14:01 oBlade wrote:
On June 14 2016 10:52 oneofthem wrote:
why is that relevant? it is a policy question.

for an agency already overstretched on resources, you expect them to be happy about a resource intensive and inefficient investigation order instead of just cutting off the firearm with a easy disqualifier like, you are a terrorist suspect?

The FBI should be positioned to have insight into the effect of the FBI having more power to suspend people's right to buy guns. Are you saying they would obviously want it because it's easier than having to investigate people and do actual police work? That's weak, I want to know the right way to do it. In order for this to work, there would have to be a list of people that were considered too low a risk to continue investigating, but high enough a risk that if you denied legal guns to the entire group, you would stop a significant number of attacks (or else what's the point). But if the number of attacks you objectively could stop was high enough, why weren't these people risky enough to have open investigations?

Some things do just come from nowhere. How big do you estimate this class of people is that would get put on a secret list by an intelligence agency, without their knowledge, and have to spend forever in court trying to find answers and then somehow exonerate themselves to restore a their rights? Around 13,000 people, like the no-fly list, or around 400,000 people, like all terror watchlists?

As I tried to explain earlier, if you stop people from buying guns legally, they also then do it under the radar, which I assume the FBI doesn't want unless it means the people are buying from undercovers. What I want is law enforcement agencies to liaise with each other more about these types of cases, including more things being tracked automatically in other agencies' records.

what part of it being a policy question don't you understand?

Never heard of "listen to the generals?"
On June 15 2016 02:18 oneofthem wrote:
the fbi is ALREADY tasked with preventing guns from getting into the hands of terrorist suspects. all it takes is a single disqualifying legal category in the already existing CT loop of the NICS procedure, so that more background checks involving terrorism suspects return a deny or delay.

The FBI is not just a gun-blocking machine. That's only one means of trying to make the country safer. I've tried to get you to explain how many this people you think is supposed to affect and what attacks it's meant to stop that otherwise slip through the FBI's cracks - i.e., whether it can actually save any lives and whether it would be worth the tradeoff of constitutionally protected rights. For example, if the list denied guns to 100,000 people but only stopped 2 murders, it would be stopping fewer murders than you'd expect just from the base rate of the population. What makes more sense is what I said before, have more interagency tracking and records. Alert a department somewhere when someone who was in an investigation that's closed buys a gun so they can decide to take another look if it's warranted.

You are dealing in hypotheticals with ginned up numbers to make your point. The argument is that there should be a system for the FBI to deny a gun sale if they feel the person is dangerous enough. Of course the system you created in your example would not be acceptable. But that does not mean the system shouldn’t exist.

Are you advocating that there should be no way for the FBI or law enforcement to prevent gun sales to people that they suspect will be dangerous? Yes or no. Do not give me your counter question where you demand to know how it would work so you don’t have to answer. Do you believe that the FBI and law enforcement shouldn’t be able to stop gun sales no matter what?


This will never happen in the U.S., because the gun lobby/NRA have way too much power in this country!
It's not about guns for them, it's about the profit!
Do you really think the NRA gives a shit about gun owners/people?
Nope, it's all about profit, nothing else!
And yes, I own a gun, but I am not deluded enough to think, that owning a gun equals protection!
When out of nowhere some maniac starts shooting, for whatever reason, I'll hit the ground faster than I can grab my gun!
That's physics and yes the gun lobby will deny that, but guess what, reality is a bitch! And it won't matter, if the NRA disagrees with it! Reality quite frankly doesn't give 2 shits about opinions...
"You cannot teach a man anything, you can only help him find it within himself."
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