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On August 28 2014 05:39 Timmsh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2014 05:35 scott31337 wrote:On August 27 2014 17:39 Penev wrote:Bump because I didn't see the need to make a new thread for this even if it's not entirely on topic. Besides the question if people should be allowed to carry guns you can also ask: Should we allow children as young as 8 years old allow to shoot UZI's on a shooting range? :-S http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/arizona-shooting-range-instructor-killed-girl-uzi-n189611http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/arizona-shooting-range-instructor-killed-girl-uzi-n189611 Are guns "fun"? Yes and yes, we do not need any more laws gosh darn it! Mistakes were made, instructor is dead, a tragic addicent, but enough with "think of the children" on every thing that happens. It also shows something of the culture around guns, which can be interesting to discuss. As Millitron points out a few posts above this one, apparently very young children firing guns and learning how to use them is acceptable in the American culture. I think it's toxic.
How is teaching a child from a young age to respect a firearm "toxic"? Firearms are a fact in our society... so we teach our children about them. It's the responsible thing to do but if you want to bury your head in the sand be my guest.
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On August 28 2014 05:39 Timmsh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2014 05:35 scott31337 wrote:On August 27 2014 17:39 Penev wrote:Bump because I didn't see the need to make a new thread for this even if it's not entirely on topic. Besides the question if people should be allowed to carry guns you can also ask: Should we allow children as young as 8 years old allow to shoot UZI's on a shooting range? :-S http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/arizona-shooting-range-instructor-killed-girl-uzi-n189611http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/arizona-shooting-range-instructor-killed-girl-uzi-n189611 Are guns "fun"? Yes and yes, we do not need any more laws gosh darn it! Mistakes were made, instructor is dead, a tragic addicent, but enough with "think of the children" on every thing that happens. It also shows something of the culture around guns, which can be interesting to discuss. As Millitron points out a few posts above this one, apparently very young children firing guns and learning how to use them is acceptable in the American culture. I think it's toxic.
You not liking guns doesn't make it toxic. There's about 10 times as many drowning deaths a year as accidental gun deaths, both are negligible.
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On August 28 2014 00:33 Nacl(Draq) wrote:When the streets had people walking around hitting people for fun it wasn't guns they were using but fists. Without a gun a 93 year old women might have died. With a gun a person who went around knocking people out by hitting them in the head died. A dog wouldn't have stopped that from happening. Alarm system doesn't work in the streets, and a saferoom doesn't do a lot cause you know... not in the house or even a room. http://nationalreport.net/knockout-thug-loses-game-permanently-grannys-big-gun/
You know that story is fake right? The national report is a satire site. You're using a made up story as evidence of something.
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On August 28 2014 05:42 heliusx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2014 05:39 Timmsh wrote:On August 28 2014 05:35 scott31337 wrote:On August 27 2014 17:39 Penev wrote:Bump because I didn't see the need to make a new thread for this even if it's not entirely on topic. Besides the question if people should be allowed to carry guns you can also ask: Should we allow children as young as 8 years old allow to shoot UZI's on a shooting range? :-S http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/arizona-shooting-range-instructor-killed-girl-uzi-n189611http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/arizona-shooting-range-instructor-killed-girl-uzi-n189611 Are guns "fun"? Yes and yes, we do not need any more laws gosh darn it! Mistakes were made, instructor is dead, a tragic addicent, but enough with "think of the children" on every thing that happens. It also shows something of the culture around guns, which can be interesting to discuss. As Millitron points out a few posts above this one, apparently very young children firing guns and learning how to use them is acceptable in the American culture. I think it's toxic. How is teaching a child from a young age to respect a firearm "toxic"? Firearms are a fact in our society so we teach our children about them. It's the responsible thing to do but if you want to bury your head in the sand be my guest.
The child is 8 years old and uses an uzi. Teaching to respect firearms can also be done without learning how to shoot, just like you don't already learn an 8 year old to drive, or to behave sexually. She could be learned everything about shooting with a toy gun. Some things can be talked about at a young age, but not 'experienced'.
At least it's worth discussing, in my opinion.
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On August 28 2014 05:45 iamho wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2014 05:39 Timmsh wrote:On August 28 2014 05:35 scott31337 wrote:On August 27 2014 17:39 Penev wrote:Bump because I didn't see the need to make a new thread for this even if it's not entirely on topic. Besides the question if people should be allowed to carry guns you can also ask: Should we allow children as young as 8 years old allow to shoot UZI's on a shooting range? :-S http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/arizona-shooting-range-instructor-killed-girl-uzi-n189611http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/arizona-shooting-range-instructor-killed-girl-uzi-n189611 Are guns "fun"? Yes and yes, we do not need any more laws gosh darn it! Mistakes were made, instructor is dead, a tragic addicent, but enough with "think of the children" on every thing that happens. It also shows something of the culture around guns, which can be interesting to discuss. As Millitron points out a few posts above this one, apparently very young children firing guns and learning how to use them is acceptable in the American culture. I think it's toxic. You not liking guns doesn't make it toxic. There's about 10 times as many drowning deaths a year as accidental gun deaths, both are negligible.
Yes, but shooting is not needed to learn safety protocols for instance. I was addressing the culture around guns, not the actual killing or accidental deaths. This to decrease the 'fun' aspect of shooting.
When an 8 year old associates playing with range shooting, i think you are creating a toxic environment for your child.
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On August 28 2014 05:46 OuchyDathurts wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2014 00:33 Nacl(Draq) wrote:When the streets had people walking around hitting people for fun it wasn't guns they were using but fists. Without a gun a 93 year old women might have died. With a gun a person who went around knocking people out by hitting them in the head died. A dog wouldn't have stopped that from happening. Alarm system doesn't work in the streets, and a saferoom doesn't do a lot cause you know... not in the house or even a room. http://nationalreport.net/knockout-thug-loses-game-permanently-grannys-big-gun/ You know that story is fake right? The national report is a satire site. You're using a made up story as evidence of something.
The knockout game is not fake.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knockout_game
On August 28 2014 05:46 Timmsh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2014 05:42 heliusx wrote:On August 28 2014 05:39 Timmsh wrote:On August 28 2014 05:35 scott31337 wrote:On August 27 2014 17:39 Penev wrote:Bump because I didn't see the need to make a new thread for this even if it's not entirely on topic. Besides the question if people should be allowed to carry guns you can also ask: Should we allow children as young as 8 years old allow to shoot UZI's on a shooting range? :-S http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/arizona-shooting-range-instructor-killed-girl-uzi-n189611http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/arizona-shooting-range-instructor-killed-girl-uzi-n189611 Are guns "fun"? Yes and yes, we do not need any more laws gosh darn it! Mistakes were made, instructor is dead, a tragic addicent, but enough with "think of the children" on every thing that happens. It also shows something of the culture around guns, which can be interesting to discuss. As Millitron points out a few posts above this one, apparently very young children firing guns and learning how to use them is acceptable in the American culture. I think it's toxic. How is teaching a child from a young age to respect a firearm "toxic"? Firearms are a fact in our society so we teach our children about them. It's the responsible thing to do but if you want to bury your head in the sand be my guest. The child is 8 years old and uses an uzi. Teaching to respect firearms can also be done without learning how to shoot, just like you don't already learn an 8 year old to drive, or to behave sexually. She could be learned everything about shooting with a toy gun. Some things can be talked about at a young age, but not 'experienced'. At least it's worth discussing, in my opinion.
And an 8 year old might need to defend themselves from an intruder. You seem to forget there have been cases of children shooting intruders and saving lives.
On August 28 2014 05:48 Timmsh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2014 05:45 iamho wrote:On August 28 2014 05:39 Timmsh wrote:On August 28 2014 05:35 scott31337 wrote:On August 27 2014 17:39 Penev wrote:Bump because I didn't see the need to make a new thread for this even if it's not entirely on topic. Besides the question if people should be allowed to carry guns you can also ask: Should we allow children as young as 8 years old allow to shoot UZI's on a shooting range? :-S http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/arizona-shooting-range-instructor-killed-girl-uzi-n189611http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/arizona-shooting-range-instructor-killed-girl-uzi-n189611 Are guns "fun"? Yes and yes, we do not need any more laws gosh darn it! Mistakes were made, instructor is dead, a tragic addicent, but enough with "think of the children" on every thing that happens. It also shows something of the culture around guns, which can be interesting to discuss. As Millitron points out a few posts above this one, apparently very young children firing guns and learning how to use them is acceptable in the American culture. I think it's toxic. You not liking guns doesn't make it toxic. There's about 10 times as many drowning deaths a year as accidental gun deaths, both are negligible. Yes, but shooting is not needed to learn safety protocols for instance. I was addressing the culture around guns, not the actual killing or accidental deaths. This to decrease the 'fun' aspect of shooting. When an 8 year old associates playing with range shooting, i think you are creating a toxic environment for your child.
Were you ever taught to use a gun? You need to teach with a real gun, a toy one will not have the same weight or balance. You also don't start teaching with a loaded gun, you start with an empty one. You also instill a healthy respect for the gun. They break a safety rule? You sternly inform them of the possible consequences if the gun had been loaded.
The instructor in this case did not follow basic safety rules, and he unfortunately paid the price. Had he been more careful, it would've been a fun day at the range for the girl, and she'd be knowledgeable about and have a healthy respect for guns and gun safety.
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On August 28 2014 05:46 Timmsh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2014 05:42 heliusx wrote:On August 28 2014 05:39 Timmsh wrote:On August 28 2014 05:35 scott31337 wrote:On August 27 2014 17:39 Penev wrote:Bump because I didn't see the need to make a new thread for this even if it's not entirely on topic. Besides the question if people should be allowed to carry guns you can also ask: Should we allow children as young as 8 years old allow to shoot UZI's on a shooting range? :-S http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/arizona-shooting-range-instructor-killed-girl-uzi-n189611http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/arizona-shooting-range-instructor-killed-girl-uzi-n189611 Are guns "fun"? Yes and yes, we do not need any more laws gosh darn it! Mistakes were made, instructor is dead, a tragic addicent, but enough with "think of the children" on every thing that happens. It also shows something of the culture around guns, which can be interesting to discuss. As Millitron points out a few posts above this one, apparently very young children firing guns and learning how to use them is acceptable in the American culture. I think it's toxic. How is teaching a child from a young age to respect a firearm "toxic"? Firearms are a fact in our society so we teach our children about them. It's the responsible thing to do but if you want to bury your head in the sand be my guest. The child is 8 years old and uses an uzi. Teaching to respect firearms can also be done without learning how to shoot, just like you don't already learn an 8 year old to drive, or to behave sexually. She could be learned everything about shooting with a toy gun. Some things can be talked about at a young age, but not 'experienced'. At least it's worth discussing, in my opinion.
Neither of our posts really had anything to do with an 8 year old shooting an uzi. You made a general point that "very young children firing guns and learning how to use them" is toxic. I believe it's the complete opposite. My brothers and I were taught very young how to use a firearm and how they are to be respected. Kids are stupid and if you don't drill them on these things they don't know better. So how exactly is this toxic? How is equipping your child on how to behave around a firearm toxic? What are the ill effects from teaching them young about guns? Anything besides trying to politicize a stupid tragedy that shouldn't have happened?
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On August 28 2014 05:51 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2014 05:46 OuchyDathurts wrote:On August 28 2014 00:33 Nacl(Draq) wrote:When the streets had people walking around hitting people for fun it wasn't guns they were using but fists. Without a gun a 93 year old women might have died. With a gun a person who went around knocking people out by hitting them in the head died. A dog wouldn't have stopped that from happening. Alarm system doesn't work in the streets, and a saferoom doesn't do a lot cause you know... not in the house or even a room. http://nationalreport.net/knockout-thug-loses-game-permanently-grannys-big-gun/ You know that story is fake right? The national report is a satire site. You're using a made up story as evidence of something. The knockout game is not fake. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knockout_gameShow nested quote +On August 28 2014 05:46 Timmsh wrote:On August 28 2014 05:42 heliusx wrote:On August 28 2014 05:39 Timmsh wrote:On August 28 2014 05:35 scott31337 wrote:On August 27 2014 17:39 Penev wrote:Bump because I didn't see the need to make a new thread for this even if it's not entirely on topic. Besides the question if people should be allowed to carry guns you can also ask: Should we allow children as young as 8 years old allow to shoot UZI's on a shooting range? :-S http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/arizona-shooting-range-instructor-killed-girl-uzi-n189611http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/arizona-shooting-range-instructor-killed-girl-uzi-n189611 Are guns "fun"? Yes and yes, we do not need any more laws gosh darn it! Mistakes were made, instructor is dead, a tragic addicent, but enough with "think of the children" on every thing that happens. It also shows something of the culture around guns, which can be interesting to discuss. As Millitron points out a few posts above this one, apparently very young children firing guns and learning how to use them is acceptable in the American culture. I think it's toxic. How is teaching a child from a young age to respect a firearm "toxic"? Firearms are a fact in our society so we teach our children about them. It's the responsible thing to do but if you want to bury your head in the sand be my guest. The child is 8 years old and uses an uzi. Teaching to respect firearms can also be done without learning how to shoot, just like you don't already learn an 8 year old to drive, or to behave sexually. She could be learned everything about shooting with a toy gun. Some things can be talked about at a young age, but not 'experienced'. At least it's worth discussing, in my opinion. And an 8 year old might need to defend themselves from an intruder. You seem to forget there have been cases of children shooting intruders and saving lives.
Why are the accidental deaths of small children negligible numbers, and the cases where small children defend themselves very significant. I'm addressing the culture here, not the numbers!
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On August 28 2014 05:36 Lockitupv2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2014 05:28 Nyxisto wrote:On August 28 2014 05:24 Lockitupv2 wrote:On August 28 2014 05:20 Nyxisto wrote:On August 28 2014 05:16 Millitron wrote:
We're still working on a peaceful resolution to the situation.
Lets say hypothetically all peaceful avenues are exhausted, and the situation only gets worse. What other recourse is there but violence? Theoretically? Peaceful protest. But it's a fantasy scenario anyway. The US isn't Syria. Why would the police/the government start oppressing it's own citizens with military power? The point is that the American public, especially the conservative faction, is completely apathetic when it comes to privacy rights, social injustice, race or gender issues. All of these things limit your freedom right now. If the theoretical option of your government suddenly turning into a dictatorship is so scary, why is the public not going completely crazy about all the things happening right now, in reality? Because all of those issues except for privacy rights are imaginary. We havent even gone through a full election cycle, so we are still giving this the good ole democratic try The issues of racial discrimination and social injustice in the US are "imaginary", but having guns to defend against the redcoats is not? For all intense and purposes, yeah. First gun control act was meant to disarm blacks. England tried to disarm the states. Hitler disarmed the jews. Pretty much everyone involved in communism and their populations. Its more of a running trend than anything.
Getting former slaves the right to bear arms along with whites was also a major issue shortly after the civil war. The states continued to prohibit freed slaves from owning guns under laws that were renamed 'Black Codes' or something like that. They still didn't consider freed slaves to be citizens at that time and former slave owners feared retributions.
Only later in 1866 did the Civil Rights Act change this. For years after, various state governments continued to try and prevent access to firearms to blacks and poor whites via legislation or onerous taxes on the guns themselves. There were even cases where the KKK got involved in terrorizing neighborhoods where the local sherriff had confiscated firearms from all blacks under their jurisdiction.
The right to bear arms was a difficult right to acquire and hold onto and Americans should not be so quick to legislate it away.
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On August 28 2014 05:53 Timmsh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2014 05:51 Millitron wrote:On August 28 2014 05:46 OuchyDathurts wrote:On August 28 2014 00:33 Nacl(Draq) wrote:When the streets had people walking around hitting people for fun it wasn't guns they were using but fists. Without a gun a 93 year old women might have died. With a gun a person who went around knocking people out by hitting them in the head died. A dog wouldn't have stopped that from happening. Alarm system doesn't work in the streets, and a saferoom doesn't do a lot cause you know... not in the house or even a room. http://nationalreport.net/knockout-thug-loses-game-permanently-grannys-big-gun/ You know that story is fake right? The national report is a satire site. You're using a made up story as evidence of something. The knockout game is not fake. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knockout_gameOn August 28 2014 05:46 Timmsh wrote:On August 28 2014 05:42 heliusx wrote:On August 28 2014 05:39 Timmsh wrote:On August 28 2014 05:35 scott31337 wrote:On August 27 2014 17:39 Penev wrote:Bump because I didn't see the need to make a new thread for this even if it's not entirely on topic. Besides the question if people should be allowed to carry guns you can also ask: Should we allow children as young as 8 years old allow to shoot UZI's on a shooting range? :-S http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/arizona-shooting-range-instructor-killed-girl-uzi-n189611http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/arizona-shooting-range-instructor-killed-girl-uzi-n189611 Are guns "fun"? Yes and yes, we do not need any more laws gosh darn it! Mistakes were made, instructor is dead, a tragic addicent, but enough with "think of the children" on every thing that happens. It also shows something of the culture around guns, which can be interesting to discuss. As Millitron points out a few posts above this one, apparently very young children firing guns and learning how to use them is acceptable in the American culture. I think it's toxic. How is teaching a child from a young age to respect a firearm "toxic"? Firearms are a fact in our society so we teach our children about them. It's the responsible thing to do but if you want to bury your head in the sand be my guest. The child is 8 years old and uses an uzi. Teaching to respect firearms can also be done without learning how to shoot, just like you don't already learn an 8 year old to drive, or to behave sexually. She could be learned everything about shooting with a toy gun. Some things can be talked about at a young age, but not 'experienced'. At least it's worth discussing, in my opinion. And an 8 year old might need to defend themselves from an intruder. You seem to forget there have been cases of children shooting intruders and saving lives. Why are the accidental deaths of small children negligible numbers, and the cases where small children defend themselves very significant. I'm addressing the culture here, not the numbers!
The accidental deaths are almost invariably children who were NOT taught to respect guns. It's not like they were taught to use them and then had a shootout.
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On August 28 2014 05:52 heliusx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2014 05:46 Timmsh wrote:On August 28 2014 05:42 heliusx wrote:On August 28 2014 05:39 Timmsh wrote:On August 28 2014 05:35 scott31337 wrote:On August 27 2014 17:39 Penev wrote:Bump because I didn't see the need to make a new thread for this even if it's not entirely on topic. Besides the question if people should be allowed to carry guns you can also ask: Should we allow children as young as 8 years old allow to shoot UZI's on a shooting range? :-S http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/arizona-shooting-range-instructor-killed-girl-uzi-n189611http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/arizona-shooting-range-instructor-killed-girl-uzi-n189611 Are guns "fun"? Yes and yes, we do not need any more laws gosh darn it! Mistakes were made, instructor is dead, a tragic addicent, but enough with "think of the children" on every thing that happens. It also shows something of the culture around guns, which can be interesting to discuss. As Millitron points out a few posts above this one, apparently very young children firing guns and learning how to use them is acceptable in the American culture. I think it's toxic. How is teaching a child from a young age to respect a firearm "toxic"? Firearms are a fact in our society so we teach our children about them. It's the responsible thing to do but if you want to bury your head in the sand be my guest. The child is 8 years old and uses an uzi. Teaching to respect firearms can also be done without learning how to shoot, just like you don't already learn an 8 year old to drive, or to behave sexually. She could be learned everything about shooting with a toy gun. Some things can be talked about at a young age, but not 'experienced'. At least it's worth discussing, in my opinion. Neither of our posts really had anything to do with an 8 year old shooting an uzi. You made a general point that "very young children firing guns and learning how to use them" is toxic. I believe it's the complete opposite. My brothers and I were taught very young how to use a firearm and how they are to be respected. Kids are stupid and if you don't drill them on these things they don't know better. So how exactly is this toxic? How is equipping your child on how to behave around a firearm toxic? What are the ill effects from teaching them young about guns? Anything besides trying to politicize a stupid tragedy that shouldn't have happened?
Well, that's what i want to discuss. I don't have experience with using guns at a young age, so your experience might be useful. I'm wondering that if a child has a non-rational age, has experience shooting guns and is stupid (as you said!), the overall safety of your family and the respect for guns you are talking about will only decrease. Especially when you teach them the 'fun' aspect of guns as well, that's what i mean with the gun culture. It's the fun in guns, which is in contrast with respect for guns.
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On August 28 2014 05:51 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2014 05:46 OuchyDathurts wrote:On August 28 2014 00:33 Nacl(Draq) wrote:When the streets had people walking around hitting people for fun it wasn't guns they were using but fists. Without a gun a 93 year old women might have died. With a gun a person who went around knocking people out by hitting them in the head died. A dog wouldn't have stopped that from happening. Alarm system doesn't work in the streets, and a saferoom doesn't do a lot cause you know... not in the house or even a room. http://nationalreport.net/knockout-thug-loses-game-permanently-grannys-big-gun/ You know that story is fake right? The national report is a satire site. You're using a made up story as evidence of something. The knockout game is not fake. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knockout_game
The game might not be fake but it certainly was never the epidemic some media sources claimed it was.
The point is a 93 year old woman was never subjected to the game nor never pulled out her hand cannon to defend herself from it. The story is a load of shit.
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On August 28 2014 05:59 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2014 05:53 Timmsh wrote:On August 28 2014 05:51 Millitron wrote:On August 28 2014 05:46 OuchyDathurts wrote:On August 28 2014 00:33 Nacl(Draq) wrote:When the streets had people walking around hitting people for fun it wasn't guns they were using but fists. Without a gun a 93 year old women might have died. With a gun a person who went around knocking people out by hitting them in the head died. A dog wouldn't have stopped that from happening. Alarm system doesn't work in the streets, and a saferoom doesn't do a lot cause you know... not in the house or even a room. http://nationalreport.net/knockout-thug-loses-game-permanently-grannys-big-gun/ You know that story is fake right? The national report is a satire site. You're using a made up story as evidence of something. The knockout game is not fake. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knockout_gameOn August 28 2014 05:46 Timmsh wrote:On August 28 2014 05:42 heliusx wrote:On August 28 2014 05:39 Timmsh wrote:On August 28 2014 05:35 scott31337 wrote:On August 27 2014 17:39 Penev wrote:Bump because I didn't see the need to make a new thread for this even if it's not entirely on topic. Besides the question if people should be allowed to carry guns you can also ask: Should we allow children as young as 8 years old allow to shoot UZI's on a shooting range? :-S http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/arizona-shooting-range-instructor-killed-girl-uzi-n189611http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/arizona-shooting-range-instructor-killed-girl-uzi-n189611 Are guns "fun"? Yes and yes, we do not need any more laws gosh darn it! Mistakes were made, instructor is dead, a tragic addicent, but enough with "think of the children" on every thing that happens. It also shows something of the culture around guns, which can be interesting to discuss. As Millitron points out a few posts above this one, apparently very young children firing guns and learning how to use them is acceptable in the American culture. I think it's toxic. How is teaching a child from a young age to respect a firearm "toxic"? Firearms are a fact in our society so we teach our children about them. It's the responsible thing to do but if you want to bury your head in the sand be my guest. The child is 8 years old and uses an uzi. Teaching to respect firearms can also be done without learning how to shoot, just like you don't already learn an 8 year old to drive, or to behave sexually. She could be learned everything about shooting with a toy gun. Some things can be talked about at a young age, but not 'experienced'. At least it's worth discussing, in my opinion. And an 8 year old might need to defend themselves from an intruder. You seem to forget there have been cases of children shooting intruders and saving lives. Why are the accidental deaths of small children negligible numbers, and the cases where small children defend themselves very significant. I'm addressing the culture here, not the numbers! The accidental deaths are almost invariably children who were NOT taught to respect guns. It's not like they were taught to use them and then had a shootout.
Yes, but you are still ignoring my point about forcing the gun culture on your child (i'm not interested in the deaths). It's the whole mindset of teaching your child that it's a necessity in order to protect yourself, and the fun of shooting.
Something which you can discuss about, if you want to teach your child those things on such a young age.
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On August 28 2014 05:39 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2014 05:35 scott31337 wrote:On August 27 2014 17:39 Penev wrote:Bump because I didn't see the need to make a new thread for this even if it's not entirely on topic. Besides the question if people should be allowed to carry guns you can also ask: Should we allow children as young as 8 years old allow to shoot UZI's on a shooting range? :-S http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/arizona-shooting-range-instructor-killed-girl-uzi-n189611http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/arizona-shooting-range-instructor-killed-girl-uzi-n189611 Are guns "fun"? Yes and yes, we do not need any more laws gosh darn it! Mistakes were made, instructor is dead, a tragic addicent, but enough with "think of the children" on every thing that happens. Watched the video. The instructor basically broke every rule of full-auto safety. He gave her a gun she had never fired before. He gave her a full magazine. He had her start on full-auto. He stood beside her, not behind her. It's almost like he was trying to get killed.
Yeah I was thinking the same thing when I actually saw the video. Sucks being a Black gun owner sometimes. I get to get the projections of everything ignorant people (who happen to be black) AND ignorant people (who happen to own guns) like this 'instructor' do.
Some of the headlines are a bit over the top though. They make it sound like he was smoking a cigarette drinking a beer with his buddies and he just handed an 8 year old a fully automatic uzi and said 'hey guys check this out'.
I think the range should certainly be liable for the life long psycological help she will need though, which I haven't heard brought up. But I imagine you have to sign something giving away any rights to recourse (even if the range is negligent) before they hand your kid an automatic weapon (unless they are totally incompetent) so I would say the parents are probably liable.
I guess it shouldn't be an issue, but something tells me the family that does something like this (nothing wrong in itself imo) with a daughter who had some guy she shot when she was 8 splattered all over her is going to have some issues down the road. And that poor girl doesn't deserve to be driven mad from lack of treatment because of a bunch of adults bad decisions.
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On August 28 2014 06:01 Timmsh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2014 05:52 heliusx wrote:On August 28 2014 05:46 Timmsh wrote:On August 28 2014 05:42 heliusx wrote:On August 28 2014 05:39 Timmsh wrote:On August 28 2014 05:35 scott31337 wrote:On August 27 2014 17:39 Penev wrote:Bump because I didn't see the need to make a new thread for this even if it's not entirely on topic. Besides the question if people should be allowed to carry guns you can also ask: Should we allow children as young as 8 years old allow to shoot UZI's on a shooting range? :-S http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/arizona-shooting-range-instructor-killed-girl-uzi-n189611http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/arizona-shooting-range-instructor-killed-girl-uzi-n189611 Are guns "fun"? Yes and yes, we do not need any more laws gosh darn it! Mistakes were made, instructor is dead, a tragic addicent, but enough with "think of the children" on every thing that happens. It also shows something of the culture around guns, which can be interesting to discuss. As Millitron points out a few posts above this one, apparently very young children firing guns and learning how to use them is acceptable in the American culture. I think it's toxic. How is teaching a child from a young age to respect a firearm "toxic"? Firearms are a fact in our society so we teach our children about them. It's the responsible thing to do but if you want to bury your head in the sand be my guest. The child is 8 years old and uses an uzi. Teaching to respect firearms can also be done without learning how to shoot, just like you don't already learn an 8 year old to drive, or to behave sexually. She could be learned everything about shooting with a toy gun. Some things can be talked about at a young age, but not 'experienced'. At least it's worth discussing, in my opinion. Neither of our posts really had anything to do with an 8 year old shooting an uzi. You made a general point that "very young children firing guns and learning how to use them" is toxic. I believe it's the complete opposite. My brothers and I were taught very young how to use a firearm and how they are to be respected. Kids are stupid and if you don't drill them on these things they don't know better. So how exactly is this toxic? How is equipping your child on how to behave around a firearm toxic? What are the ill effects from teaching them young about guns? Anything besides trying to politicize a stupid tragedy that shouldn't have happened? Well, that's what i want to discuss. I don't have experience with using guns at a young age, so your experience might be useful. I'm wondering that if a child has a non-rational age, has experience shooting guns and is stupid (as you said!), the overall safety of your family and the respect for guns you are talking about will only decrease. Especially when you teach them the 'fun' aspect of guns as well, that's what i mean with the gun culture. It's the fun in guns, which is in contrast with respect for guns.
I think its ultimately up to the parents to see that their children are safe with guns. It's got to be decided on a case-by-case basis. Not every 8-year old is ready. Likewise, only the parents really have enough knowledge about the child to make that call.
On August 28 2014 06:01 OuchyDathurts wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2014 05:51 Millitron wrote:On August 28 2014 05:46 OuchyDathurts wrote:On August 28 2014 00:33 Nacl(Draq) wrote:When the streets had people walking around hitting people for fun it wasn't guns they were using but fists. Without a gun a 93 year old women might have died. With a gun a person who went around knocking people out by hitting them in the head died. A dog wouldn't have stopped that from happening. Alarm system doesn't work in the streets, and a saferoom doesn't do a lot cause you know... not in the house or even a room. http://nationalreport.net/knockout-thug-loses-game-permanently-grannys-big-gun/ You know that story is fake right? The national report is a satire site. You're using a made up story as evidence of something. The knockout game is not fake. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knockout_game The game might not be fake but it certainly was never the epidemic some media sources claimed it was. The point is a 93 year old woman was never subjected to the game nor never pulled out her hand cannon to defend herself from it. The story is a load of shit.
How many knockout games may have been foiled by armed targets? It's pretty impossible to tell, the assailants are likely to never be caught, thus hiding their motive, especially if no shots are fired.
Guns are used defensively anywhere between 55,000 times and 3.6 million times, depending on whose stats you trust.
In any reasonable measurement, the gun is also not necessarily fired, the criminal flees or surrenders just at the sight of it.
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Show nested quote +On August 28 2014 06:01 OuchyDathurts wrote:On August 28 2014 05:51 Millitron wrote:On August 28 2014 05:46 OuchyDathurts wrote:On August 28 2014 00:33 Nacl(Draq) wrote:When the streets had people walking around hitting people for fun it wasn't guns they were using but fists. Without a gun a 93 year old women might have died. With a gun a person who went around knocking people out by hitting them in the head died. A dog wouldn't have stopped that from happening. Alarm system doesn't work in the streets, and a saferoom doesn't do a lot cause you know... not in the house or even a room. http://nationalreport.net/knockout-thug-loses-game-permanently-grannys-big-gun/ You know that story is fake right? The national report is a satire site. You're using a made up story as evidence of something. The knockout game is not fake. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knockout_game The game might not be fake but it certainly was never the epidemic some media sources claimed it was. The point is a 93 year old woman was never subjected to the game nor never pulled out her hand cannon to defend herself from it. The story is a load of shit. How many knockout games may have been foiled by armed targets? It's pretty impossible to tell, the assailants are likely to never be caught, thus hiding their motive, especially if no shots are fired. Guns are used defensively anywhere between 55,000 times and 3.6 million times, depending on whose stats you trust. In any reasonable measurement, the gun is also not necessarily fired, the criminal flees or surrenders just at the sight of it.
I don't think anyone will argue that guns aren't sometimes used defensively to save someones life. I do think people might generally have a problem with The Onion being used as some sort of legitimate news source to try and make a point. I know sometimes people around here like to use less than reputable sources to back up their stances, but lets not defend the use of entirely fictitious sources.
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On August 28 2014 06:11 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2014 06:01 Timmsh wrote:On August 28 2014 05:52 heliusx wrote:On August 28 2014 05:46 Timmsh wrote:On August 28 2014 05:42 heliusx wrote:On August 28 2014 05:39 Timmsh wrote:On August 28 2014 05:35 scott31337 wrote:On August 27 2014 17:39 Penev wrote:Bump because I didn't see the need to make a new thread for this even if it's not entirely on topic. Besides the question if people should be allowed to carry guns you can also ask: Should we allow children as young as 8 years old allow to shoot UZI's on a shooting range? :-S http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/arizona-shooting-range-instructor-killed-girl-uzi-n189611http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/arizona-shooting-range-instructor-killed-girl-uzi-n189611 Are guns "fun"? Yes and yes, we do not need any more laws gosh darn it! Mistakes were made, instructor is dead, a tragic addicent, but enough with "think of the children" on every thing that happens. It also shows something of the culture around guns, which can be interesting to discuss. As Millitron points out a few posts above this one, apparently very young children firing guns and learning how to use them is acceptable in the American culture. I think it's toxic. How is teaching a child from a young age to respect a firearm "toxic"? Firearms are a fact in our society so we teach our children about them. It's the responsible thing to do but if you want to bury your head in the sand be my guest. The child is 8 years old and uses an uzi. Teaching to respect firearms can also be done without learning how to shoot, just like you don't already learn an 8 year old to drive, or to behave sexually. She could be learned everything about shooting with a toy gun. Some things can be talked about at a young age, but not 'experienced'. At least it's worth discussing, in my opinion. Neither of our posts really had anything to do with an 8 year old shooting an uzi. You made a general point that "very young children firing guns and learning how to use them" is toxic. I believe it's the complete opposite. My brothers and I were taught very young how to use a firearm and how they are to be respected. Kids are stupid and if you don't drill them on these things they don't know better. So how exactly is this toxic? How is equipping your child on how to behave around a firearm toxic? What are the ill effects from teaching them young about guns? Anything besides trying to politicize a stupid tragedy that shouldn't have happened? Well, that's what i want to discuss. I don't have experience with using guns at a young age, so your experience might be useful. I'm wondering that if a child has a non-rational age, has experience shooting guns and is stupid (as you said!), the overall safety of your family and the respect for guns you are talking about will only decrease. Especially when you teach them the 'fun' aspect of guns as well, that's what i mean with the gun culture. It's the fun in guns, which is in contrast with respect for guns. I think its ultimately up to the parents to see that their children are safe with guns. It's got to be decided on a case-by-case basis. Not every 8-year old is ready. Likewise, only the parents really have enough knowledge about the child to make that call. Show nested quote +On August 28 2014 06:01 OuchyDathurts wrote:On August 28 2014 05:51 Millitron wrote:On August 28 2014 05:46 OuchyDathurts wrote:On August 28 2014 00:33 Nacl(Draq) wrote:When the streets had people walking around hitting people for fun it wasn't guns they were using but fists. Without a gun a 93 year old women might have died. With a gun a person who went around knocking people out by hitting them in the head died. A dog wouldn't have stopped that from happening. Alarm system doesn't work in the streets, and a saferoom doesn't do a lot cause you know... not in the house or even a room. http://nationalreport.net/knockout-thug-loses-game-permanently-grannys-big-gun/ You know that story is fake right? The national report is a satire site. You're using a made up story as evidence of something. The knockout game is not fake. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knockout_game The game might not be fake but it certainly was never the epidemic some media sources claimed it was. The point is a 93 year old woman was never subjected to the game nor never pulled out her hand cannon to defend herself from it. The story is a load of shit. How many knockout games may have been foiled by armed targets? It's pretty impossible to tell, the assailants are likely to never be caught, thus hiding their motive, especially if no shots are fired. Guns are used defensively anywhere between 55,000 times and 3.6 million times, depending on whose stats you trust. In any reasonable measurement, the gun is also not necessarily fired, the criminal flees or surrenders just at the sight of it.
I don't fully agree with that statement. In what way can the parents fully 'know' if their child is ready for that, and does not relapse into non rational behaviour. In the same line of reasoning we let people learn how to drive when they are 18 (or 16 or whatever), or we give age restrictions for buying alcohol. these restrictions also give a clear signal (to parents and child) that alcohol is not meant for young people. Just like you could argue guns are just not meant for (very) young people.
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Edit: Damn double post again
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On August 28 2014 06:19 OuchyDathurts wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2014 06:01 OuchyDathurts wrote:On August 28 2014 05:51 Millitron wrote:On August 28 2014 05:46 OuchyDathurts wrote:On August 28 2014 00:33 Nacl(Draq) wrote:When the streets had people walking around hitting people for fun it wasn't guns they were using but fists. Without a gun a 93 year old women might have died. With a gun a person who went around knocking people out by hitting them in the head died. A dog wouldn't have stopped that from happening. Alarm system doesn't work in the streets, and a saferoom doesn't do a lot cause you know... not in the house or even a room. http://nationalreport.net/knockout-thug-loses-game-permanently-grannys-big-gun/ You know that story is fake right? The national report is a satire site. You're using a made up story as evidence of something. The knockout game is not fake. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knockout_game The game might not be fake but it certainly was never the epidemic some media sources claimed it was. The point is a 93 year old woman was never subjected to the game nor never pulled out her hand cannon to defend herself from it. The story is a load of shit. How many knockout games may have been foiled by armed targets? It's pretty impossible to tell, the assailants are likely to never be caught, thus hiding their motive, especially if no shots are fired. Guns are used defensively anywhere between 55,000 times and 3.6 million times, depending on whose stats you trust. In any reasonable measurement, the gun is also not necessarily fired, the criminal flees or surrenders just at the sight of it. I don't think anyone will argue that guns aren't sometimes used defensively to save someones life. I do think people might generally have a problem with The Onion being used as some sort of legitimate news source to try and make a point. I know sometimes people around here like to use less than reputable sources to back up their stances, but lets not defend the use of entirely fictitious sources.
Yeah, I agree. This one case did not happen. But similar cases have happened. In fact, most of the real-life cases turn out even better. Typically nobody dies.
On August 28 2014 06:21 Timmsh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2014 06:11 Millitron wrote:On August 28 2014 06:01 Timmsh wrote:On August 28 2014 05:52 heliusx wrote:On August 28 2014 05:46 Timmsh wrote:On August 28 2014 05:42 heliusx wrote:On August 28 2014 05:39 Timmsh wrote:On August 28 2014 05:35 scott31337 wrote:On August 27 2014 17:39 Penev wrote:Bump because I didn't see the need to make a new thread for this even if it's not entirely on topic. Besides the question if people should be allowed to carry guns you can also ask: Should we allow children as young as 8 years old allow to shoot UZI's on a shooting range? :-S http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/arizona-shooting-range-instructor-killed-girl-uzi-n189611http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/arizona-shooting-range-instructor-killed-girl-uzi-n189611 Are guns "fun"? Yes and yes, we do not need any more laws gosh darn it! Mistakes were made, instructor is dead, a tragic addicent, but enough with "think of the children" on every thing that happens. It also shows something of the culture around guns, which can be interesting to discuss. As Millitron points out a few posts above this one, apparently very young children firing guns and learning how to use them is acceptable in the American culture. I think it's toxic. How is teaching a child from a young age to respect a firearm "toxic"? Firearms are a fact in our society so we teach our children about them. It's the responsible thing to do but if you want to bury your head in the sand be my guest. The child is 8 years old and uses an uzi. Teaching to respect firearms can also be done without learning how to shoot, just like you don't already learn an 8 year old to drive, or to behave sexually. She could be learned everything about shooting with a toy gun. Some things can be talked about at a young age, but not 'experienced'. At least it's worth discussing, in my opinion. Neither of our posts really had anything to do with an 8 year old shooting an uzi. You made a general point that "very young children firing guns and learning how to use them" is toxic. I believe it's the complete opposite. My brothers and I were taught very young how to use a firearm and how they are to be respected. Kids are stupid and if you don't drill them on these things they don't know better. So how exactly is this toxic? How is equipping your child on how to behave around a firearm toxic? What are the ill effects from teaching them young about guns? Anything besides trying to politicize a stupid tragedy that shouldn't have happened? Well, that's what i want to discuss. I don't have experience with using guns at a young age, so your experience might be useful. I'm wondering that if a child has a non-rational age, has experience shooting guns and is stupid (as you said!), the overall safety of your family and the respect for guns you are talking about will only decrease. Especially when you teach them the 'fun' aspect of guns as well, that's what i mean with the gun culture. It's the fun in guns, which is in contrast with respect for guns. I think its ultimately up to the parents to see that their children are safe with guns. It's got to be decided on a case-by-case basis. Not every 8-year old is ready. Likewise, only the parents really have enough knowledge about the child to make that call. On August 28 2014 06:01 OuchyDathurts wrote:On August 28 2014 05:51 Millitron wrote:On August 28 2014 05:46 OuchyDathurts wrote:On August 28 2014 00:33 Nacl(Draq) wrote:When the streets had people walking around hitting people for fun it wasn't guns they were using but fists. Without a gun a 93 year old women might have died. With a gun a person who went around knocking people out by hitting them in the head died. A dog wouldn't have stopped that from happening. Alarm system doesn't work in the streets, and a saferoom doesn't do a lot cause you know... not in the house or even a room. http://nationalreport.net/knockout-thug-loses-game-permanently-grannys-big-gun/ You know that story is fake right? The national report is a satire site. You're using a made up story as evidence of something. The knockout game is not fake. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knockout_game The game might not be fake but it certainly was never the epidemic some media sources claimed it was. The point is a 93 year old woman was never subjected to the game nor never pulled out her hand cannon to defend herself from it. The story is a load of shit. How many knockout games may have been foiled by armed targets? It's pretty impossible to tell, the assailants are likely to never be caught, thus hiding their motive, especially if no shots are fired. Guns are used defensively anywhere between 55,000 times and 3.6 million times, depending on whose stats you trust. In any reasonable measurement, the gun is also not necessarily fired, the criminal flees or surrenders just at the sight of it. I don't fully agree with that statement. In what way can the parents fully 'know' if their child is ready for that, and does not relapse into non rational behaviour. In the same line of reasoning we let people learn how to drive when they are 18 (or 16 or whatever), or we give age restrictions for buying alcohol. these restrictions also give a clear signal (to parents and child) that alcohol is not meant for young people. Just like you could argue guns are just not meant for young people.
First of all, not every country has a legal drinking age. Second, it's not illegal to drink alcohol under 21, just to buy or possess it. Your parents can legally let you drink, as long as they don't let it ruin your life, which would constitute child abuse. Last, you could relapse into non-rational behaviour at any age, even one older than whatever arbitrary line you draw.
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On August 28 2014 06:27 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2014 06:19 OuchyDathurts wrote:On August 28 2014 06:01 OuchyDathurts wrote:On August 28 2014 05:51 Millitron wrote:On August 28 2014 05:46 OuchyDathurts wrote:On August 28 2014 00:33 Nacl(Draq) wrote:When the streets had people walking around hitting people for fun it wasn't guns they were using but fists. Without a gun a 93 year old women might have died. With a gun a person who went around knocking people out by hitting them in the head died. A dog wouldn't have stopped that from happening. Alarm system doesn't work in the streets, and a saferoom doesn't do a lot cause you know... not in the house or even a room. http://nationalreport.net/knockout-thug-loses-game-permanently-grannys-big-gun/ You know that story is fake right? The national report is a satire site. You're using a made up story as evidence of something. The knockout game is not fake. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knockout_game The game might not be fake but it certainly was never the epidemic some media sources claimed it was. The point is a 93 year old woman was never subjected to the game nor never pulled out her hand cannon to defend herself from it. The story is a load of shit. How many knockout games may have been foiled by armed targets? It's pretty impossible to tell, the assailants are likely to never be caught, thus hiding their motive, especially if no shots are fired. Guns are used defensively anywhere between 55,000 times and 3.6 million times, depending on whose stats you trust. In any reasonable measurement, the gun is also not necessarily fired, the criminal flees or surrenders just at the sight of it. I don't think anyone will argue that guns aren't sometimes used defensively to save someones life. I do think people might generally have a problem with The Onion being used as some sort of legitimate news source to try and make a point. I know sometimes people around here like to use less than reputable sources to back up their stances, but lets not defend the use of entirely fictitious sources. Yeah, I agree. This one case did not happen. But similar cases have happened. In fact, most of the real-life cases turn out even better. Typically nobody dies. Show nested quote +On August 28 2014 06:21 Timmsh wrote:On August 28 2014 06:11 Millitron wrote:On August 28 2014 06:01 Timmsh wrote:On August 28 2014 05:52 heliusx wrote:On August 28 2014 05:46 Timmsh wrote:On August 28 2014 05:42 heliusx wrote:On August 28 2014 05:39 Timmsh wrote:On August 28 2014 05:35 scott31337 wrote:On August 27 2014 17:39 Penev wrote:Bump because I didn't see the need to make a new thread for this even if it's not entirely on topic. Besides the question if people should be allowed to carry guns you can also ask: Should we allow children as young as 8 years old allow to shoot UZI's on a shooting range? :-S http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/arizona-shooting-range-instructor-killed-girl-uzi-n189611http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/arizona-shooting-range-instructor-killed-girl-uzi-n189611 Are guns "fun"? Yes and yes, we do not need any more laws gosh darn it! Mistakes were made, instructor is dead, a tragic addicent, but enough with "think of the children" on every thing that happens. It also shows something of the culture around guns, which can be interesting to discuss. As Millitron points out a few posts above this one, apparently very young children firing guns and learning how to use them is acceptable in the American culture. I think it's toxic. How is teaching a child from a young age to respect a firearm "toxic"? Firearms are a fact in our society so we teach our children about them. It's the responsible thing to do but if you want to bury your head in the sand be my guest. The child is 8 years old and uses an uzi. Teaching to respect firearms can also be done without learning how to shoot, just like you don't already learn an 8 year old to drive, or to behave sexually. She could be learned everything about shooting with a toy gun. Some things can be talked about at a young age, but not 'experienced'. At least it's worth discussing, in my opinion. Neither of our posts really had anything to do with an 8 year old shooting an uzi. You made a general point that "very young children firing guns and learning how to use them" is toxic. I believe it's the complete opposite. My brothers and I were taught very young how to use a firearm and how they are to be respected. Kids are stupid and if you don't drill them on these things they don't know better. So how exactly is this toxic? How is equipping your child on how to behave around a firearm toxic? What are the ill effects from teaching them young about guns? Anything besides trying to politicize a stupid tragedy that shouldn't have happened? Well, that's what i want to discuss. I don't have experience with using guns at a young age, so your experience might be useful. I'm wondering that if a child has a non-rational age, has experience shooting guns and is stupid (as you said!), the overall safety of your family and the respect for guns you are talking about will only decrease. Especially when you teach them the 'fun' aspect of guns as well, that's what i mean with the gun culture. It's the fun in guns, which is in contrast with respect for guns. I think its ultimately up to the parents to see that their children are safe with guns. It's got to be decided on a case-by-case basis. Not every 8-year old is ready. Likewise, only the parents really have enough knowledge about the child to make that call. On August 28 2014 06:01 OuchyDathurts wrote:On August 28 2014 05:51 Millitron wrote:On August 28 2014 05:46 OuchyDathurts wrote:On August 28 2014 00:33 Nacl(Draq) wrote:When the streets had people walking around hitting people for fun it wasn't guns they were using but fists. Without a gun a 93 year old women might have died. With a gun a person who went around knocking people out by hitting them in the head died. A dog wouldn't have stopped that from happening. Alarm system doesn't work in the streets, and a saferoom doesn't do a lot cause you know... not in the house or even a room. http://nationalreport.net/knockout-thug-loses-game-permanently-grannys-big-gun/ You know that story is fake right? The national report is a satire site. You're using a made up story as evidence of something. The knockout game is not fake. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knockout_game The game might not be fake but it certainly was never the epidemic some media sources claimed it was. The point is a 93 year old woman was never subjected to the game nor never pulled out her hand cannon to defend herself from it. The story is a load of shit. How many knockout games may have been foiled by armed targets? It's pretty impossible to tell, the assailants are likely to never be caught, thus hiding their motive, especially if no shots are fired. Guns are used defensively anywhere between 55,000 times and 3.6 million times, depending on whose stats you trust. In any reasonable measurement, the gun is also not necessarily fired, the criminal flees or surrenders just at the sight of it. I don't fully agree with that statement. In what way can the parents fully 'know' if their child is ready for that, and does not relapse into non rational behaviour. In the same line of reasoning we let people learn how to drive when they are 18 (or 16 or whatever), or we give age restrictions for buying alcohol. these restrictions also give a clear signal (to parents and child) that alcohol is not meant for young people. Just like you could argue guns are just not meant for young people. First of all, not every country has a legal drinking age. Second, it's not illegal to drink alcohol under 21, just to buy or possess it. Your parents can legally let you drink, as long as they don't let it ruin your life, which would constitute child abuse. Last, you could relapse into non-rational behaviour at any age, even one older than whatever arbitrary line you draw.
That's true, but i'm not talking about any country, your country still made laws like this before. Isn't it arguable that the arbitrary sexual age of 18 years should actually be based on every case specific (or parents can decide).
Next to that you don't address my point of culture again.(that's why i use the example of alcohol or driving car in the first place, remember)
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EPT
