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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On January 21 2014 03:36 heliusx wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 03:31 Djzapz wrote:On January 21 2014 03:22 heliusx wrote:On January 21 2014 03:10 Djzapz wrote:
My problem is that the people who argue against gun control and say that the problem is the people rather than the guns tend to be the same people who refuse to pay taxes and blame the poor for all the difficulties they're experiencing. , gun control many not prevent many (if any) crimes. But social programs would. Social equality measures would. State-funded mental health establishment might, paired with 21st century legislation to that effect.
But no, the poor kids in ghettos, the sick white crackheads ought to get their shit together on their own. Or get shot dead by police or incarcerated shortly after they've snapped or have murdered a cashier because their life sucks and people don't give the slightest amount of fuck. Well they don't care until little sally gets killed because dad wouldn't pay a dollar out of his yearly income to feed people who'll fight for their subsistence before they let themselves die. That says more about you than anyone else. Your one liner says about more about you than my post says about me. My post referred the the observable fact that many people who are against gun control also tend to be against the actual, functional solutions to reduce gun violence. That being said, I'm not really a proponent of gun control, definitely not in the US. So I'm at least an exception to my observation... But I would argue that I don't really fit in my observation because I would never make for the sole reason of discrediting gun control. What's the point? If gun control doesn't work, and it doesn't, then make an effort and bring up something that does. What my post says about me, perhaps, is that I have a nuanced understanding of the problem and its potential solutions as well as the ineffective solutions that are brought forward by some sheeple who have a very shallow understanding of the underlying causes of gun violence and criminality in the US. If you happen to think that my assessment is wrong, please do me a favor and wrote say three lines. Make six times the effort. Articulate your thoughts as if you were graced with sapience. Sometimes a man's head is so far up his ass it's not worth anyone's time to yank it out. All you can do is laugh it up.
The irony. It burns. 
Cheers.
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Oh please. You can't bitch at the people who don't want gun control for anything other then not wanting gun control. bitch at the people who are constantly saying that gun control will solve the problem and refuse to advocate or listen to anything else solveing the problem. Please stop being raciest and insisting that the only poor people are black people liveing in the inner city. There are plenty of poor as dirt people liveing in trailer parts and worse that don't resort to gang violence and drugs to get by that are white, black, native american, and all other ethnicities.
The problem is that its a bunch of liberals liveing in big cities with a problem fighting against conservatives who don't live in the city who don't see a problem and want to fight their rights being taken away for no reason.
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On January 21 2014 03:10 Djzapz wrote:
My problem is that the people who argue against gun control and say that the problem is the people rather than the guns tend to be the same people who refuse to pay taxes and blame the poor for all the difficulties they're experiencing.
I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at. You support gun control out of spite for people who tend to oppose gun control, regardless of the fact that gun control causes crime?
That seems incredibly petty and cruel. The people who suffer most from increased crime rates are not gun rights advocates, but the impoverished you feign sympathy for.
On January 21 2014 03:10 Djzapz wrote:
Sure, gun control many not prevent many (if any) crimes.
Gun control increases crime rates. Full stop.
If you had any regard for the facts you wouldn't be pretending otherwise.
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On January 21 2014 03:56 Zaqwe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 03:10 Djzapz wrote:
My problem is that the people who argue against gun control and say that the problem is the people rather than the guns tend to be the same people who refuse to pay taxes and blame the poor for all the difficulties they're experiencing. I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at. You are suggesting people should support gun control out of spite for people who tend to support gun rights, regardless of the fact that gun control causes crime? That seems incredibly petty as the people who suffer most from the increased crime rates are not gun rights advocates, but rather the poor people you feign sympathy for. Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 03:10 Djzapz wrote:Sure, gun control many not prevent many (if any) crimes. Gun control increases crime rates. Full stop. If you had any regard for the facts you wouldn't be pretending otherwise.
No no, I guess I'm being misunderstood here. I was basically saying that many people who support the political position that there shouldn't be gun control (that I largely agree with) should at least be aware that certain social programs would reduce violence in society. Since gun control doesn't work, turn to something else. Don't just leave the problem as it is.
As for the idea that gun control increases crime rates, I don't know. I haven't seen any evidence of that. I know that areas with gun control have more crime but that could be because high crime areas get gun control legislation first. That said I wouldn't dismiss the evidence if I saw it, and I think it could very well be true in the US.
I was getting criticized for mentioning this rather than going after the 'liberals' who are pro gun control, and I do actually criticize them. I've actually convinced many of my friends and colleagues here in Quebec that gun control wouldn't prevent shootings in the US.
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On January 21 2014 03:56 Zaqwe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 03:10 Djzapz wrote:
My problem is that the people who argue against gun control and say that the problem is the people rather than the guns tend to be the same people who refuse to pay taxes and blame the poor for all the difficulties they're experiencing. I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at. You support gun control out of spite for people who tend to oppose gun control, regardless of the fact that gun control causes crime? That seems incredibly petty and cruel. The people who suffer most from increased crime rates are not gun rights advocates, but the impoverished you feign sympathy for. Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 03:10 Djzapz wrote:
Sure, gun control many not prevent many (if any) crimes. Gun control increases crime rates. Full stop. If you had any regard for the facts you wouldn't be pretending otherwise.
provide links to a set of peer reviewed studies concluding "gun control increases crime rates"
thanks
(re: don't bother linking the 'harvard study' -- it's a law review article, which are not authoritative at all.)
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On January 21 2014 04:14 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 03:56 Zaqwe wrote:On January 21 2014 03:10 Djzapz wrote:
My problem is that the people who argue against gun control and say that the problem is the people rather than the guns tend to be the same people who refuse to pay taxes and blame the poor for all the difficulties they're experiencing. I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at. You support gun control out of spite for people who tend to oppose gun control, regardless of the fact that gun control causes crime? That seems incredibly petty and cruel. The people who suffer most from increased crime rates are not gun rights advocates, but the impoverished you feign sympathy for. On January 21 2014 03:10 Djzapz wrote:
Sure, gun control many not prevent many (if any) crimes. Gun control increases crime rates. Full stop. If you had any regard for the facts you wouldn't be pretending otherwise. provide links to a set of peer reviewed studies concluding "gun control increases crime rates" thanks
Kates, D. B.; Mauser, G. A. (2002). "Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International and Some Domestic Evidence". Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy 30 (2): 649–694.
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On January 21 2014 04:00 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 03:56 Zaqwe wrote:On January 21 2014 03:10 Djzapz wrote:
My problem is that the people who argue against gun control and say that the problem is the people rather than the guns tend to be the same people who refuse to pay taxes and blame the poor for all the difficulties they're experiencing. I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at. You are suggesting people should support gun control out of spite for people who tend to support gun rights, regardless of the fact that gun control causes crime? That seems incredibly petty as the people who suffer most from the increased crime rates are not gun rights advocates, but rather the poor people you feign sympathy for. On January 21 2014 03:10 Djzapz wrote:Sure, gun control many not prevent many (if any) crimes. Gun control increases crime rates. Full stop. If you had any regard for the facts you wouldn't be pretending otherwise. No no, I guess I'm being misunderstood here. I was basically saying that many people who support the political position that there shouldn't be gun control (that I largely agree with) should at least be aware that certain social programs would reduce violence in society. Since gun control doesn't work, turn to something else. Don't just leave the problem as it is. As for the idea that gun control increases crime rates, I don't know. I haven't seen any evidence of that. I know that areas with gun control have more crime but that could be because high crime areas get gun control legislation first. That said I wouldn't dismiss the evidence if I saw it, and I think it could very well be true in the US. I was getting criticized for mentioning this rather than going after the 'liberals' who are pro gun control, and I do actually criticize them. I've actually convinced many of my friends and colleagues here in Quebec that gun control wouldn't prevent shootings in the US.
That's a subject for a different thread. But what you are saying is really not true.
Nation's poorest county has low crime rate
Does poverty cause the crime? Or does crime cause the poverty?
Turns out they're both trick questions. It's not a chicken-egg, parent-child; cause-and-effect relationship.
Rather, the two are often siblings, twin children of low intelligence.
Psychologist Arthur Jensen demonstrated that males with IQs between 70 and 90, aged 18 to 49 commit nearly all violent crimes. That same lack of intelligence also causes poverty, though not all poverty is caused by low intelligence.
The low crime rate in Appalachia, for example, reveals that poverty can be circumstantial rather than inherent due to low intelligence and, when that is the case, it is reflected in a low crime rate.
http://dailykenn.blogspot.com/2014/01/nations-poorest-county-has-low-crime.html
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On January 21 2014 04:19 Zaqwe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 04:14 FallDownMarigold wrote:On January 21 2014 03:56 Zaqwe wrote:On January 21 2014 03:10 Djzapz wrote:
My problem is that the people who argue against gun control and say that the problem is the people rather than the guns tend to be the same people who refuse to pay taxes and blame the poor for all the difficulties they're experiencing. I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at. You support gun control out of spite for people who tend to oppose gun control, regardless of the fact that gun control causes crime? That seems incredibly petty and cruel. The people who suffer most from increased crime rates are not gun rights advocates, but the impoverished you feign sympathy for. On January 21 2014 03:10 Djzapz wrote:
Sure, gun control many not prevent many (if any) crimes. Gun control increases crime rates. Full stop. If you had any regard for the facts you wouldn't be pretending otherwise. provide links to a set of peer reviewed studies concluding "gun control increases crime rates" thanks Kates, D. B.; Mauser, G. A. (2002). "Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International and Some Domestic Evidence". Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy 30 (2): 649–694.
Rofl.
I actually was editing into my previous post that this doesn't count. It's a law review article. It's not peer reviewed and doesn't satisfy my request.
Next, try again
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On January 21 2014 04:19 Zaqwe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 04:14 FallDownMarigold wrote:On January 21 2014 03:56 Zaqwe wrote:On January 21 2014 03:10 Djzapz wrote:
My problem is that the people who argue against gun control and say that the problem is the people rather than the guns tend to be the same people who refuse to pay taxes and blame the poor for all the difficulties they're experiencing. I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at. You support gun control out of spite for people who tend to oppose gun control, regardless of the fact that gun control causes crime? That seems incredibly petty and cruel. The people who suffer most from increased crime rates are not gun rights advocates, but the impoverished you feign sympathy for. On January 21 2014 03:10 Djzapz wrote:
Sure, gun control many not prevent many (if any) crimes. Gun control increases crime rates. Full stop. If you had any regard for the facts you wouldn't be pretending otherwise. provide links to a set of peer reviewed studies concluding "gun control increases crime rates" thanks Kates, D. B.; Mauser, G. A. (2002). "Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International and Some Domestic Evidence". Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy 30 (2): 649–694.
The article concludes that gun control cannot be proven to be effective given the available data, and that this conclusion should be taken with a grain of salt. Not that it increases homicide rates.
On January 21 2014 04:23 Zaqwe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 04:00 Djzapz wrote:On January 21 2014 03:56 Zaqwe wrote:On January 21 2014 03:10 Djzapz wrote:
My problem is that the people who argue against gun control and say that the problem is the people rather than the guns tend to be the same people who refuse to pay taxes and blame the poor for all the difficulties they're experiencing. I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at. You are suggesting people should support gun control out of spite for people who tend to support gun rights, regardless of the fact that gun control causes crime? That seems incredibly petty as the people who suffer most from the increased crime rates are not gun rights advocates, but rather the poor people you feign sympathy for. On January 21 2014 03:10 Djzapz wrote:Sure, gun control many not prevent many (if any) crimes. Gun control increases crime rates. Full stop. If you had any regard for the facts you wouldn't be pretending otherwise. No no, I guess I'm being misunderstood here. I was basically saying that many people who support the political position that there shouldn't be gun control (that I largely agree with) should at least be aware that certain social programs would reduce violence in society. Since gun control doesn't work, turn to something else. Don't just leave the problem as it is. As for the idea that gun control increases crime rates, I don't know. I haven't seen any evidence of that. I know that areas with gun control have more crime but that could be because high crime areas get gun control legislation first. That said I wouldn't dismiss the evidence if I saw it, and I think it could very well be true in the US. I was getting criticized for mentioning this rather than going after the 'liberals' who are pro gun control, and I do actually criticize them. I've actually convinced many of my friends and colleagues here in Quebec that gun control wouldn't prevent shootings in the US. That's a subject for a different thread. But what you are saying is really not true. Nation's poorest county has low crime rateDoes poverty cause the crime? Or does crime cause the poverty?
Turns out they're both trick questions. It's not a chicken-egg, parent-child; cause-and-effect relationship.
Rather, the two are often siblings, twin children of low intelligence.
Psychologist Arthur Jensen demonstrated that males with IQs between 70 and 90, aged 18 to 49 commit nearly all violent crimes. That same lack of intelligence also causes poverty, though not all poverty is caused by low intelligence.
The low crime rate in Appalachia, for example, reveals that poverty can be circumstantial rather than inherent due to low intelligence and, when that is the case, it is reflected in a low crime rate.http://dailykenn.blogspot.com/2014/01/nations-poorest-county-has-low-crime.html
You've just invalidated social sciences with a completely different outlook. I'll cease being a university teacher now solely off of that chicken and egg analogy madness. Fucking psychology and blogspot, jesus fuck.
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On January 21 2014 04:25 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 04:19 Zaqwe wrote:On January 21 2014 04:14 FallDownMarigold wrote:On January 21 2014 03:56 Zaqwe wrote:On January 21 2014 03:10 Djzapz wrote:
My problem is that the people who argue against gun control and say that the problem is the people rather than the guns tend to be the same people who refuse to pay taxes and blame the poor for all the difficulties they're experiencing. I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at. You support gun control out of spite for people who tend to oppose gun control, regardless of the fact that gun control causes crime? That seems incredibly petty and cruel. The people who suffer most from increased crime rates are not gun rights advocates, but the impoverished you feign sympathy for. On January 21 2014 03:10 Djzapz wrote:
Sure, gun control many not prevent many (if any) crimes. Gun control increases crime rates. Full stop. If you had any regard for the facts you wouldn't be pretending otherwise. provide links to a set of peer reviewed studies concluding "gun control increases crime rates" thanks Kates, D. B.; Mauser, G. A. (2002). "Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International and Some Domestic Evidence". Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy 30 (2): 649–694. The article concludes that gun control cannot be proven to be effective given the available data, and that this conclusion should be taken with a grain of salt. Not that it increases homicide rates. Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 04:23 Zaqwe wrote:On January 21 2014 04:00 Djzapz wrote:On January 21 2014 03:56 Zaqwe wrote:On January 21 2014 03:10 Djzapz wrote:
My problem is that the people who argue against gun control and say that the problem is the people rather than the guns tend to be the same people who refuse to pay taxes and blame the poor for all the difficulties they're experiencing. I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at. You are suggesting people should support gun control out of spite for people who tend to support gun rights, regardless of the fact that gun control causes crime? That seems incredibly petty as the people who suffer most from the increased crime rates are not gun rights advocates, but rather the poor people you feign sympathy for. On January 21 2014 03:10 Djzapz wrote:Sure, gun control many not prevent many (if any) crimes. Gun control increases crime rates. Full stop. If you had any regard for the facts you wouldn't be pretending otherwise. No no, I guess I'm being misunderstood here. I was basically saying that many people who support the political position that there shouldn't be gun control (that I largely agree with) should at least be aware that certain social programs would reduce violence in society. Since gun control doesn't work, turn to something else. Don't just leave the problem as it is. As for the idea that gun control increases crime rates, I don't know. I haven't seen any evidence of that. I know that areas with gun control have more crime but that could be because high crime areas get gun control legislation first. That said I wouldn't dismiss the evidence if I saw it, and I think it could very well be true in the US. I was getting criticized for mentioning this rather than going after the 'liberals' who are pro gun control, and I do actually criticize them. I've actually convinced many of my friends and colleagues here in Quebec that gun control wouldn't prevent shootings in the US. That's a subject for a different thread. But what you are saying is really not true. Nation's poorest county has low crime rateDoes poverty cause the crime? Or does crime cause the poverty?
Turns out they're both trick questions. It's not a chicken-egg, parent-child; cause-and-effect relationship.
Rather, the two are often siblings, twin children of low intelligence.
Psychologist Arthur Jensen demonstrated that males with IQs between 70 and 90, aged 18 to 49 commit nearly all violent crimes. That same lack of intelligence also causes poverty, though not all poverty is caused by low intelligence.
The low crime rate in Appalachia, for example, reveals that poverty can be circumstantial rather than inherent due to low intelligence and, when that is the case, it is reflected in a low crime rate.http://dailykenn.blogspot.com/2014/01/nations-poorest-county-has-low-crime.html You've just invalidated social sciences with a completely different outlook. I'll cease being a university teacher now solely off of that chicken and egg analogy madness. Fucking psychology and blogspot, jesus fuck.
Did you not read past the first two sentences? It's anecdotal evidence but it certainly contradicts your claims--for which you have provided no evidence, anecdotal or otherwise.
If you prefer empirical evidence, this graph is taken from a study of more than 11,000 people. You can see that, while increasing SES lowers the risk of incarceration only a little bit, increasing IQ lowers the risk sharply.
![[image loading]](http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/4935/3xuf.th.png)
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886911000912
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On January 21 2014 04:34 Zaqwe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 04:25 Djzapz wrote:On January 21 2014 04:19 Zaqwe wrote:On January 21 2014 04:14 FallDownMarigold wrote:On January 21 2014 03:56 Zaqwe wrote:On January 21 2014 03:10 Djzapz wrote:
My problem is that the people who argue against gun control and say that the problem is the people rather than the guns tend to be the same people who refuse to pay taxes and blame the poor for all the difficulties they're experiencing. I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at. You support gun control out of spite for people who tend to oppose gun control, regardless of the fact that gun control causes crime? That seems incredibly petty and cruel. The people who suffer most from increased crime rates are not gun rights advocates, but the impoverished you feign sympathy for. On January 21 2014 03:10 Djzapz wrote:
Sure, gun control many not prevent many (if any) crimes. Gun control increases crime rates. Full stop. If you had any regard for the facts you wouldn't be pretending otherwise. provide links to a set of peer reviewed studies concluding "gun control increases crime rates" thanks Kates, D. B.; Mauser, G. A. (2002). "Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International and Some Domestic Evidence". Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy 30 (2): 649–694. The article concludes that gun control cannot be proven to be effective given the available data, and that this conclusion should be taken with a grain of salt. Not that it increases homicide rates. On January 21 2014 04:23 Zaqwe wrote:On January 21 2014 04:00 Djzapz wrote:On January 21 2014 03:56 Zaqwe wrote:On January 21 2014 03:10 Djzapz wrote:
My problem is that the people who argue against gun control and say that the problem is the people rather than the guns tend to be the same people who refuse to pay taxes and blame the poor for all the difficulties they're experiencing. I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at. You are suggesting people should support gun control out of spite for people who tend to support gun rights, regardless of the fact that gun control causes crime? That seems incredibly petty as the people who suffer most from the increased crime rates are not gun rights advocates, but rather the poor people you feign sympathy for. On January 21 2014 03:10 Djzapz wrote:Sure, gun control many not prevent many (if any) crimes. Gun control increases crime rates. Full stop. If you had any regard for the facts you wouldn't be pretending otherwise. No no, I guess I'm being misunderstood here. I was basically saying that many people who support the political position that there shouldn't be gun control (that I largely agree with) should at least be aware that certain social programs would reduce violence in society. Since gun control doesn't work, turn to something else. Don't just leave the problem as it is. As for the idea that gun control increases crime rates, I don't know. I haven't seen any evidence of that. I know that areas with gun control have more crime but that could be because high crime areas get gun control legislation first. That said I wouldn't dismiss the evidence if I saw it, and I think it could very well be true in the US. I was getting criticized for mentioning this rather than going after the 'liberals' who are pro gun control, and I do actually criticize them. I've actually convinced many of my friends and colleagues here in Quebec that gun control wouldn't prevent shootings in the US. That's a subject for a different thread. But what you are saying is really not true. Nation's poorest county has low crime rateDoes poverty cause the crime? Or does crime cause the poverty?
Turns out they're both trick questions. It's not a chicken-egg, parent-child; cause-and-effect relationship.
Rather, the two are often siblings, twin children of low intelligence.
Psychologist Arthur Jensen demonstrated that males with IQs between 70 and 90, aged 18 to 49 commit nearly all violent crimes. That same lack of intelligence also causes poverty, though not all poverty is caused by low intelligence.
The low crime rate in Appalachia, for example, reveals that poverty can be circumstantial rather than inherent due to low intelligence and, when that is the case, it is reflected in a low crime rate.http://dailykenn.blogspot.com/2014/01/nations-poorest-county-has-low-crime.html You've just invalidated social sciences with a completely different outlook. I'll cease being a university teacher now solely off of that chicken and egg analogy madness. Fucking psychology and blogspot, jesus fuck. Did you not read past the first two sentences? It's anecdotal evidence but it certainly contradicts your claims--for which you have provided no evidence, anecdotal or otherwise. If you prefer empirical evidence, this graph is taken from a study of more than 11,000 people. You can see that, while increasing SES lowers the risk of incarceration only a little bit, increasing IQ lowers the risk sharply. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886911000912
Poverty and social inequality are different things. I don't disagree that low IQ can lead to crime.
I can help you to find half a billion papers explaining how social inequality leads to crime later tonight if you want. I'm in class atm so I'm a little limited. That said, you can go verify the correlation on the OECD site right now, that thing is awesome. Use excel and correlate the gini coefficient of countries and criminality. You'll see a pretty steep correlation. Add the social services (which scientific, peer reviewed articles do) and you'll see a serious correlation. Social equality, education, social services, etc. all play a role.
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On January 21 2014 04:38 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 04:34 Zaqwe wrote:On January 21 2014 04:25 Djzapz wrote:On January 21 2014 04:19 Zaqwe wrote:On January 21 2014 04:14 FallDownMarigold wrote:On January 21 2014 03:56 Zaqwe wrote:On January 21 2014 03:10 Djzapz wrote:
My problem is that the people who argue against gun control and say that the problem is the people rather than the guns tend to be the same people who refuse to pay taxes and blame the poor for all the difficulties they're experiencing. I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at. You support gun control out of spite for people who tend to oppose gun control, regardless of the fact that gun control causes crime? That seems incredibly petty and cruel. The people who suffer most from increased crime rates are not gun rights advocates, but the impoverished you feign sympathy for. On January 21 2014 03:10 Djzapz wrote:
Sure, gun control many not prevent many (if any) crimes. Gun control increases crime rates. Full stop. If you had any regard for the facts you wouldn't be pretending otherwise. provide links to a set of peer reviewed studies concluding "gun control increases crime rates" thanks Kates, D. B.; Mauser, G. A. (2002). "Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International and Some Domestic Evidence". Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy 30 (2): 649–694. The article concludes that gun control cannot be proven to be effective given the available data, and that this conclusion should be taken with a grain of salt. Not that it increases homicide rates. On January 21 2014 04:23 Zaqwe wrote:On January 21 2014 04:00 Djzapz wrote:On January 21 2014 03:56 Zaqwe wrote:On January 21 2014 03:10 Djzapz wrote:
My problem is that the people who argue against gun control and say that the problem is the people rather than the guns tend to be the same people who refuse to pay taxes and blame the poor for all the difficulties they're experiencing. I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at. You are suggesting people should support gun control out of spite for people who tend to support gun rights, regardless of the fact that gun control causes crime? That seems incredibly petty as the people who suffer most from the increased crime rates are not gun rights advocates, but rather the poor people you feign sympathy for. On January 21 2014 03:10 Djzapz wrote:Sure, gun control many not prevent many (if any) crimes. Gun control increases crime rates. Full stop. If you had any regard for the facts you wouldn't be pretending otherwise. No no, I guess I'm being misunderstood here. I was basically saying that many people who support the political position that there shouldn't be gun control (that I largely agree with) should at least be aware that certain social programs would reduce violence in society. Since gun control doesn't work, turn to something else. Don't just leave the problem as it is. As for the idea that gun control increases crime rates, I don't know. I haven't seen any evidence of that. I know that areas with gun control have more crime but that could be because high crime areas get gun control legislation first. That said I wouldn't dismiss the evidence if I saw it, and I think it could very well be true in the US. I was getting criticized for mentioning this rather than going after the 'liberals' who are pro gun control, and I do actually criticize them. I've actually convinced many of my friends and colleagues here in Quebec that gun control wouldn't prevent shootings in the US. That's a subject for a different thread. But what you are saying is really not true. Nation's poorest county has low crime rateDoes poverty cause the crime? Or does crime cause the poverty?
Turns out they're both trick questions. It's not a chicken-egg, parent-child; cause-and-effect relationship.
Rather, the two are often siblings, twin children of low intelligence.
Psychologist Arthur Jensen demonstrated that males with IQs between 70 and 90, aged 18 to 49 commit nearly all violent crimes. That same lack of intelligence also causes poverty, though not all poverty is caused by low intelligence.
The low crime rate in Appalachia, for example, reveals that poverty can be circumstantial rather than inherent due to low intelligence and, when that is the case, it is reflected in a low crime rate.http://dailykenn.blogspot.com/2014/01/nations-poorest-county-has-low-crime.html You've just invalidated social sciences with a completely different outlook. I'll cease being a university teacher now solely off of that chicken and egg analogy madness. Fucking psychology and blogspot, jesus fuck. Did you not read past the first two sentences? It's anecdotal evidence but it certainly contradicts your claims--for which you have provided no evidence, anecdotal or otherwise. If you prefer empirical evidence, this graph is taken from a study of more than 11,000 people. You can see that, while increasing SES lowers the risk of incarceration only a little bit, increasing IQ lowers the risk sharply. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886911000912 Poverty and social inequality are different things. I don't disagree that low IQ can lead to crime.
Why do men have higher crime rates than women?
Is there social inequality between them? What sort of social inequality?
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On January 21 2014 04:41 Zaqwe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 04:38 Djzapz wrote:On January 21 2014 04:34 Zaqwe wrote:On January 21 2014 04:25 Djzapz wrote:On January 21 2014 04:19 Zaqwe wrote:On January 21 2014 04:14 FallDownMarigold wrote:On January 21 2014 03:56 Zaqwe wrote:On January 21 2014 03:10 Djzapz wrote:
My problem is that the people who argue against gun control and say that the problem is the people rather than the guns tend to be the same people who refuse to pay taxes and blame the poor for all the difficulties they're experiencing. I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at. You support gun control out of spite for people who tend to oppose gun control, regardless of the fact that gun control causes crime? That seems incredibly petty and cruel. The people who suffer most from increased crime rates are not gun rights advocates, but the impoverished you feign sympathy for. On January 21 2014 03:10 Djzapz wrote:
Sure, gun control many not prevent many (if any) crimes. Gun control increases crime rates. Full stop. If you had any regard for the facts you wouldn't be pretending otherwise. provide links to a set of peer reviewed studies concluding "gun control increases crime rates" thanks Kates, D. B.; Mauser, G. A. (2002). "Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International and Some Domestic Evidence". Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy 30 (2): 649–694. The article concludes that gun control cannot be proven to be effective given the available data, and that this conclusion should be taken with a grain of salt. Not that it increases homicide rates. On January 21 2014 04:23 Zaqwe wrote:On January 21 2014 04:00 Djzapz wrote:On January 21 2014 03:56 Zaqwe wrote:On January 21 2014 03:10 Djzapz wrote:
My problem is that the people who argue against gun control and say that the problem is the people rather than the guns tend to be the same people who refuse to pay taxes and blame the poor for all the difficulties they're experiencing. I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at. You are suggesting people should support gun control out of spite for people who tend to support gun rights, regardless of the fact that gun control causes crime? That seems incredibly petty as the people who suffer most from the increased crime rates are not gun rights advocates, but rather the poor people you feign sympathy for. On January 21 2014 03:10 Djzapz wrote:Sure, gun control many not prevent many (if any) crimes. Gun control increases crime rates. Full stop. If you had any regard for the facts you wouldn't be pretending otherwise. No no, I guess I'm being misunderstood here. I was basically saying that many people who support the political position that there shouldn't be gun control (that I largely agree with) should at least be aware that certain social programs would reduce violence in society. Since gun control doesn't work, turn to something else. Don't just leave the problem as it is. As for the idea that gun control increases crime rates, I don't know. I haven't seen any evidence of that. I know that areas with gun control have more crime but that could be because high crime areas get gun control legislation first. That said I wouldn't dismiss the evidence if I saw it, and I think it could very well be true in the US. I was getting criticized for mentioning this rather than going after the 'liberals' who are pro gun control, and I do actually criticize them. I've actually convinced many of my friends and colleagues here in Quebec that gun control wouldn't prevent shootings in the US. That's a subject for a different thread. But what you are saying is really not true. Nation's poorest county has low crime rateDoes poverty cause the crime? Or does crime cause the poverty?
Turns out they're both trick questions. It's not a chicken-egg, parent-child; cause-and-effect relationship.
Rather, the two are often siblings, twin children of low intelligence.
Psychologist Arthur Jensen demonstrated that males with IQs between 70 and 90, aged 18 to 49 commit nearly all violent crimes. That same lack of intelligence also causes poverty, though not all poverty is caused by low intelligence.
The low crime rate in Appalachia, for example, reveals that poverty can be circumstantial rather than inherent due to low intelligence and, when that is the case, it is reflected in a low crime rate.http://dailykenn.blogspot.com/2014/01/nations-poorest-county-has-low-crime.html You've just invalidated social sciences with a completely different outlook. I'll cease being a university teacher now solely off of that chicken and egg analogy madness. Fucking psychology and blogspot, jesus fuck. Did you not read past the first two sentences? It's anecdotal evidence but it certainly contradicts your claims--for which you have provided no evidence, anecdotal or otherwise. If you prefer empirical evidence, this graph is taken from a study of more than 11,000 people. You can see that, while increasing SES lowers the risk of incarceration only a little bit, increasing IQ lowers the risk sharply. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886911000912 Poverty and social inequality are different things. I don't disagree that low IQ can lead to crime. Why do men have higher crime rates than women? Is there social inequality between them? What sort of social inequality?
So I mentioned social inequality and you outright assumed that I was saying that social inequality is the only influential factor? What is this, third grade?
Heads up, society is complicated.
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On January 21 2014 04:32 FallDownMarigold wrote:
^second that
Try reading more than just the conclusion. The data presented shows a negative correlation between gun ownership and crime.
Or you know what, try even reading the conclusion:
Harvard Study: No Correlation Between Gun Control and Less Violent Crime
The authors of the study conclude that the burden of proof rests on those who claim more guns equal more death and violent crime; such proponents should "at the very least [be able] to show a large number of nations with more guns have more death and that nations that impose stringent gun controls have achieved substantial reductions in criminal violence (or suicide)." But after intense study the authors conclude "those correlations are not observed when a large number of nations are compared around the world."
In fact, the numbers presented in the Harvard study support the contention that among the nations studied, those with more gun control tend toward higher death rates.
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/08/27/Harvard-Study-Shows-No-Correlation-Between-Strict-Gun-Control-And-Less-Crime-Violence
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On January 21 2014 04:47 Zaqwe wrote:Try reading more than just the conclusion. The data presented shows a negative correlation between gun ownership and crime. Or you know what, try even reading the conclusion: Harvard Study: No Correlation Between Gun Control and Less Violent CrimeThe authors of the study conclude that the burden of proof rests on those who claim more guns equal more death and violent crime; such proponents should "at the very least [be able] to show a large number of nations with more guns have more death and that nations that impose stringent gun controls have achieved substantial reductions in criminal violence (or suicide)." But after intense study the authors conclude "those correlations are not observed when a large number of nations are compared around the world."
In fact, the numbers presented in the Harvard study support the contention that among the nations studied, those with more gun control tend toward higher death rates. http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/08/27/Harvard-Study-Shows-No-Correlation-Between-Strict-Gun-Control-And-Less-Crime-Violence
Oh my god, language is important. They're not reporting a causal link, that's the point.... You've most likely heard the phrase 'correlation does not imply causation'? This is a prime example of that.
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On January 21 2014 04:44 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 04:41 Zaqwe wrote:On January 21 2014 04:38 Djzapz wrote:On January 21 2014 04:34 Zaqwe wrote:On January 21 2014 04:25 Djzapz wrote:On January 21 2014 04:19 Zaqwe wrote:On January 21 2014 04:14 FallDownMarigold wrote:On January 21 2014 03:56 Zaqwe wrote:On January 21 2014 03:10 Djzapz wrote:
My problem is that the people who argue against gun control and say that the problem is the people rather than the guns tend to be the same people who refuse to pay taxes and blame the poor for all the difficulties they're experiencing. I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at. You support gun control out of spite for people who tend to oppose gun control, regardless of the fact that gun control causes crime? That seems incredibly petty and cruel. The people who suffer most from increased crime rates are not gun rights advocates, but the impoverished you feign sympathy for. On January 21 2014 03:10 Djzapz wrote:
Sure, gun control many not prevent many (if any) crimes. Gun control increases crime rates. Full stop. If you had any regard for the facts you wouldn't be pretending otherwise. provide links to a set of peer reviewed studies concluding "gun control increases crime rates" thanks Kates, D. B.; Mauser, G. A. (2002). "Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International and Some Domestic Evidence". Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy 30 (2): 649–694. The article concludes that gun control cannot be proven to be effective given the available data, and that this conclusion should be taken with a grain of salt. Not that it increases homicide rates. On January 21 2014 04:23 Zaqwe wrote:On January 21 2014 04:00 Djzapz wrote:On January 21 2014 03:56 Zaqwe wrote:On January 21 2014 03:10 Djzapz wrote:
My problem is that the people who argue against gun control and say that the problem is the people rather than the guns tend to be the same people who refuse to pay taxes and blame the poor for all the difficulties they're experiencing. I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at. You are suggesting people should support gun control out of spite for people who tend to support gun rights, regardless of the fact that gun control causes crime? That seems incredibly petty as the people who suffer most from the increased crime rates are not gun rights advocates, but rather the poor people you feign sympathy for. On January 21 2014 03:10 Djzapz wrote:Sure, gun control many not prevent many (if any) crimes. Gun control increases crime rates. Full stop. If you had any regard for the facts you wouldn't be pretending otherwise. No no, I guess I'm being misunderstood here. I was basically saying that many people who support the political position that there shouldn't be gun control (that I largely agree with) should at least be aware that certain social programs would reduce violence in society. Since gun control doesn't work, turn to something else. Don't just leave the problem as it is. As for the idea that gun control increases crime rates, I don't know. I haven't seen any evidence of that. I know that areas with gun control have more crime but that could be because high crime areas get gun control legislation first. That said I wouldn't dismiss the evidence if I saw it, and I think it could very well be true in the US. I was getting criticized for mentioning this rather than going after the 'liberals' who are pro gun control, and I do actually criticize them. I've actually convinced many of my friends and colleagues here in Quebec that gun control wouldn't prevent shootings in the US. That's a subject for a different thread. But what you are saying is really not true. Nation's poorest county has low crime rateDoes poverty cause the crime? Or does crime cause the poverty?
Turns out they're both trick questions. It's not a chicken-egg, parent-child; cause-and-effect relationship.
Rather, the two are often siblings, twin children of low intelligence.
Psychologist Arthur Jensen demonstrated that males with IQs between 70 and 90, aged 18 to 49 commit nearly all violent crimes. That same lack of intelligence also causes poverty, though not all poverty is caused by low intelligence.
The low crime rate in Appalachia, for example, reveals that poverty can be circumstantial rather than inherent due to low intelligence and, when that is the case, it is reflected in a low crime rate.http://dailykenn.blogspot.com/2014/01/nations-poorest-county-has-low-crime.html You've just invalidated social sciences with a completely different outlook. I'll cease being a university teacher now solely off of that chicken and egg analogy madness. Fucking psychology and blogspot, jesus fuck. Did you not read past the first two sentences? It's anecdotal evidence but it certainly contradicts your claims--for which you have provided no evidence, anecdotal or otherwise. If you prefer empirical evidence, this graph is taken from a study of more than 11,000 people. You can see that, while increasing SES lowers the risk of incarceration only a little bit, increasing IQ lowers the risk sharply. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886911000912 Poverty and social inequality are different things. I don't disagree that low IQ can lead to crime. Why do men have higher crime rates than women? Is there social inequality between them? What sort of social inequality? So I mentioned social inequality and you outright assumed that I was saying that social inequality is the only influential factor? What is this, third grade? Heads up, society is complicated.
You're just dancing around the fact that social programs like welfare are pretty ineffective and probably counterproductive as they assist the worst segments of society in reproducing. Free abortions perhaps would be the best social program possible.
On the other hand letting people arm themselves and shoot criminals--for example when a criminal pins them to the ground and beats them in the head--is relatively much more effective. Maybe after 10,000 years of gun rights and strong self-defense laws America will have a crime rate as low as Japan.
Of course if you wanted to accelerate the process you could just replace the population of America with Japanese people.
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You made the massive claim:
"Gun control causes crime rate increase"
You made such a fuss about it being such a hard fact that you went as far as to label anyone "ignoring" the "fact".
Then, when called out on it -- because clearly any fact so certain would be corroborated by many independently peer reviewed journal articles in peer reviewed journals (re: not law reviews) -- and asked for evidence, all you can muster up is .... NOTHING!
Hahaha
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On January 21 2014 04:49 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 04:47 Zaqwe wrote:On January 21 2014 04:32 FallDownMarigold wrote:
^second that
Try reading more than just the conclusion. The data presented shows a negative correlation between gun ownership and crime. Or you know what, try even reading the conclusion: Harvard Study: No Correlation Between Gun Control and Less Violent CrimeThe authors of the study conclude that the burden of proof rests on those who claim more guns equal more death and violent crime; such proponents should "at the very least [be able] to show a large number of nations with more guns have more death and that nations that impose stringent gun controls have achieved substantial reductions in criminal violence (or suicide)." But after intense study the authors conclude "those correlations are not observed when a large number of nations are compared around the world."
In fact, the numbers presented in the Harvard study support the contention that among the nations studied, those with more gun control tend toward higher death rates. http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/08/27/Harvard-Study-Shows-No-Correlation-Between-Strict-Gun-Control-And-Less-Crime-Violence Oh my god, language is important. They're not reporting a causal link, that's the point.... You've most likely heard the phrase 'correlation does not imply causation'? This is a prime example of that.
So the data presented only exists if they mention it in the conclusion? Their conclusion is directly related to the question asked right there in the title: Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide?
The conclusion of course is: no.
The data within the body of the paper shows it would increase crime.
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On January 21 2014 04:51 Zaqwe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 04:44 Djzapz wrote:On January 21 2014 04:41 Zaqwe wrote:On January 21 2014 04:38 Djzapz wrote:On January 21 2014 04:34 Zaqwe wrote:On January 21 2014 04:25 Djzapz wrote:On January 21 2014 04:19 Zaqwe wrote:On January 21 2014 04:14 FallDownMarigold wrote:On January 21 2014 03:56 Zaqwe wrote:On January 21 2014 03:10 Djzapz wrote:
My problem is that the people who argue against gun control and say that the problem is the people rather than the guns tend to be the same people who refuse to pay taxes and blame the poor for all the difficulties they're experiencing. I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at. You support gun control out of spite for people who tend to oppose gun control, regardless of the fact that gun control causes crime? That seems incredibly petty and cruel. The people who suffer most from increased crime rates are not gun rights advocates, but the impoverished you feign sympathy for. On January 21 2014 03:10 Djzapz wrote:
Sure, gun control many not prevent many (if any) crimes. Gun control increases crime rates. Full stop. If you had any regard for the facts you wouldn't be pretending otherwise. provide links to a set of peer reviewed studies concluding "gun control increases crime rates" thanks Kates, D. B.; Mauser, G. A. (2002). "Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International and Some Domestic Evidence". Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy 30 (2): 649–694. The article concludes that gun control cannot be proven to be effective given the available data, and that this conclusion should be taken with a grain of salt. Not that it increases homicide rates. On January 21 2014 04:23 Zaqwe wrote:On January 21 2014 04:00 Djzapz wrote:On January 21 2014 03:56 Zaqwe wrote:On January 21 2014 03:10 Djzapz wrote:
My problem is that the people who argue against gun control and say that the problem is the people rather than the guns tend to be the same people who refuse to pay taxes and blame the poor for all the difficulties they're experiencing. I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at. You are suggesting people should support gun control out of spite for people who tend to support gun rights, regardless of the fact that gun control causes crime? That seems incredibly petty as the people who suffer most from the increased crime rates are not gun rights advocates, but rather the poor people you feign sympathy for. On January 21 2014 03:10 Djzapz wrote:Sure, gun control many not prevent many (if any) crimes. Gun control increases crime rates. Full stop. If you had any regard for the facts you wouldn't be pretending otherwise. No no, I guess I'm being misunderstood here. I was basically saying that many people who support the political position that there shouldn't be gun control (that I largely agree with) should at least be aware that certain social programs would reduce violence in society. Since gun control doesn't work, turn to something else. Don't just leave the problem as it is. As for the idea that gun control increases crime rates, I don't know. I haven't seen any evidence of that. I know that areas with gun control have more crime but that could be because high crime areas get gun control legislation first. That said I wouldn't dismiss the evidence if I saw it, and I think it could very well be true in the US. I was getting criticized for mentioning this rather than going after the 'liberals' who are pro gun control, and I do actually criticize them. I've actually convinced many of my friends and colleagues here in Quebec that gun control wouldn't prevent shootings in the US. That's a subject for a different thread. But what you are saying is really not true. Nation's poorest county has low crime rateDoes poverty cause the crime? Or does crime cause the poverty?
Turns out they're both trick questions. It's not a chicken-egg, parent-child; cause-and-effect relationship.
Rather, the two are often siblings, twin children of low intelligence.
Psychologist Arthur Jensen demonstrated that males with IQs between 70 and 90, aged 18 to 49 commit nearly all violent crimes. That same lack of intelligence also causes poverty, though not all poverty is caused by low intelligence.
The low crime rate in Appalachia, for example, reveals that poverty can be circumstantial rather than inherent due to low intelligence and, when that is the case, it is reflected in a low crime rate.http://dailykenn.blogspot.com/2014/01/nations-poorest-county-has-low-crime.html You've just invalidated social sciences with a completely different outlook. I'll cease being a university teacher now solely off of that chicken and egg analogy madness. Fucking psychology and blogspot, jesus fuck. Did you not read past the first two sentences? It's anecdotal evidence but it certainly contradicts your claims--for which you have provided no evidence, anecdotal or otherwise. If you prefer empirical evidence, this graph is taken from a study of more than 11,000 people. You can see that, while increasing SES lowers the risk of incarceration only a little bit, increasing IQ lowers the risk sharply. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886911000912 Poverty and social inequality are different things. I don't disagree that low IQ can lead to crime. Why do men have higher crime rates than women? Is there social inequality between them? What sort of social inequality? So I mentioned social inequality and you outright assumed that I was saying that social inequality is the only influential factor? What is this, third grade? Heads up, society is complicated. You're just dancing around the fact that social programs like welfare are pretty ineffective and probably counterproductive as they assist the worst segments of society in reproducing. Free abortions perhaps would be the best social program possible. On the other hand letting people arm themselves and shoot criminals--for example when a criminal pins them to the ground and beats them in the head--is relatively much more effective. Maybe after 10,000 years of gun rights and strong self-defense laws America will have a crime rate as low as Japan. Of course if you wanted to accelerate the process you could just replace the population of America with Japanese people.
How do you explain that societies with relatively strong social programs have low crime rates then :/.
I think you've just discredited yourself more than you had before by essentially bringing up eugenics as a solution to criminality.
Sigh.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/4935/3xuf.png)
