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On February 05 2013 02:02 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 22:06 zatic wrote:
I find the inter-European gun and murder rate comparisons largely meaningless as in pretty much every European country you are not allowed to own a gun for self defense purposes anyway. So I really fail to see how gun ownership would influence crime and/or gun crime significantly.
As to the differences quoted in the study. The central and northern European countries have a long tradition of hunting and competition shooting - something that just isn't there in the same extend in the southern countries. At the same time they (North/Central) happen to be better off economically, educationally, and in pretty much every other factor that would influence crime. Just because Europeans are generally not allowed to own guns for self defense does not mean that those weapons cannot be used in self defense. Would you rather get the shit kicked out of you, and possibly die, or would you choose a little jail time for a weapons charge?
That's a pretty loaded statement, you basically said if anyone comes up and tries to get in a fist fight with you the only alternative to fighting is pulling out a loaded pistol. Seems to me you either a) exaggerate or b) hang around the shittiest neighborhoods and in that are the company you keep.
I'm rather pro-guns but I'm not pro stupidity and that's a ridiculous assertion that merits no premise in either anti-gun or pro-gun; it just doesn't fit.
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On February 05 2013 02:06 Hitch-22 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 02:02 Millitron wrote:On February 04 2013 22:06 zatic wrote:
I find the inter-European gun and murder rate comparisons largely meaningless as in pretty much every European country you are not allowed to own a gun for self defense purposes anyway. So I really fail to see how gun ownership would influence crime and/or gun crime significantly.
As to the differences quoted in the study. The central and northern European countries have a long tradition of hunting and competition shooting - something that just isn't there in the same extend in the southern countries. At the same time they (North/Central) happen to be better off economically, educationally, and in pretty much every other factor that would influence crime. Just because Europeans are generally not allowed to own guns for self defense does not mean that those weapons cannot be used in self defense. Would you rather get the shit kicked out of you, and possibly die, or would you choose a little jail time for a weapons charge? That's a pretty loaded statement, you basically said if anyone comes up and tries to get in a fist fight with you the only alternative to fighting is pulling out a loaded pistol. Seems to me you either a) exaggerate or b) hang around the shittiest neighborhoods and in that are the company you keep. I'm rather pro-guns but I'm not pro stupidity and that's a ridiculous assertion that merits no premise in either anti-gun or pro-gun; it just doesn't fit.
No, because I understand that Europeans do not carry guns with them. They leave their guns at home. If someone breaks in when you're there, and doesn't leave the instant they see you, they mean business. That's when it would not be impossible for European to shoot someone.
If an intruder starts a fist fight with you in your own home, what would you suggest?
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On February 05 2013 02:13 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 02:06 Hitch-22 wrote:On February 05 2013 02:02 Millitron wrote:On February 04 2013 22:06 zatic wrote:
I find the inter-European gun and murder rate comparisons largely meaningless as in pretty much every European country you are not allowed to own a gun for self defense purposes anyway. So I really fail to see how gun ownership would influence crime and/or gun crime significantly.
As to the differences quoted in the study. The central and northern European countries have a long tradition of hunting and competition shooting - something that just isn't there in the same extend in the southern countries. At the same time they (North/Central) happen to be better off economically, educationally, and in pretty much every other factor that would influence crime. Just because Europeans are generally not allowed to own guns for self defense does not mean that those weapons cannot be used in self defense. Would you rather get the shit kicked out of you, and possibly die, or would you choose a little jail time for a weapons charge? That's a pretty loaded statement, you basically said if anyone comes up and tries to get in a fist fight with you the only alternative to fighting is pulling out a loaded pistol. Seems to me you either a) exaggerate or b) hang around the shittiest neighborhoods and in that are the company you keep. I'm rather pro-guns but I'm not pro stupidity and that's a ridiculous assertion that merits no premise in either anti-gun or pro-gun; it just doesn't fit. No, because I understand that Europeans do not carry guns with them. They leave their guns at home. If someone breaks in when you're there, and doesn't leave the instant they see you, they mean business. That's when it would not be impossible for European to shoot someone. If an intruder starts a fist fight with you in your own home, what would you suggest?
dude, no one has guns here, at least talking about germany. i am 28yo and i have never seen a gun, which was not on a police or hunter, in my life. never heard the sound of a gunfire besides in movies ...
the 10 or so murders per year we got in a city of 500.000 are also 90% without guns.
quite happy about it, i think would be paranoid as fuck when having to expect every drunken idiot possibly carrying a gun with him ...
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On February 05 2013 02:13 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 02:06 Hitch-22 wrote:On February 05 2013 02:02 Millitron wrote:On February 04 2013 22:06 zatic wrote:
I find the inter-European gun and murder rate comparisons largely meaningless as in pretty much every European country you are not allowed to own a gun for self defense purposes anyway. So I really fail to see how gun ownership would influence crime and/or gun crime significantly.
As to the differences quoted in the study. The central and northern European countries have a long tradition of hunting and competition shooting - something that just isn't there in the same extend in the southern countries. At the same time they (North/Central) happen to be better off economically, educationally, and in pretty much every other factor that would influence crime. Just because Europeans are generally not allowed to own guns for self defense does not mean that those weapons cannot be used in self defense. Would you rather get the shit kicked out of you, and possibly die, or would you choose a little jail time for a weapons charge? That's a pretty loaded statement, you basically said if anyone comes up and tries to get in a fist fight with you the only alternative to fighting is pulling out a loaded pistol. Seems to me you either a) exaggerate or b) hang around the shittiest neighborhoods and in that are the company you keep. I'm rather pro-guns but I'm not pro stupidity and that's a ridiculous assertion that merits no premise in either anti-gun or pro-gun; it just doesn't fit. No, because I understand that Europeans do not carry guns with them. They leave their guns at home. If someone breaks in when you're there, and doesn't leave the instant they see you, they mean business. That's when it would not be impossible for European to shoot someone. If an intruder starts a fist fight with you in your own home, what would you suggest?
"Would you rather get the shit kicked out of you, and possibly die, or would you choose a little jail time for a weapons charge?"
My Apologies, where were you referencing home invasion? That's an interesting way to spin a stance or it may have been that you just simply poorly put your stance in question. Of course, if someone invades your home, you may defend yourself but without context your statement made as much sense as the light I put it in.
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On February 05 2013 02:27 Corvi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 02:13 Millitron wrote:On February 05 2013 02:06 Hitch-22 wrote:On February 05 2013 02:02 Millitron wrote:On February 04 2013 22:06 zatic wrote:
I find the inter-European gun and murder rate comparisons largely meaningless as in pretty much every European country you are not allowed to own a gun for self defense purposes anyway. So I really fail to see how gun ownership would influence crime and/or gun crime significantly.
As to the differences quoted in the study. The central and northern European countries have a long tradition of hunting and competition shooting - something that just isn't there in the same extend in the southern countries. At the same time they (North/Central) happen to be better off economically, educationally, and in pretty much every other factor that would influence crime. Just because Europeans are generally not allowed to own guns for self defense does not mean that those weapons cannot be used in self defense. Would you rather get the shit kicked out of you, and possibly die, or would you choose a little jail time for a weapons charge? That's a pretty loaded statement, you basically said if anyone comes up and tries to get in a fist fight with you the only alternative to fighting is pulling out a loaded pistol. Seems to me you either a) exaggerate or b) hang around the shittiest neighborhoods and in that are the company you keep. I'm rather pro-guns but I'm not pro stupidity and that's a ridiculous assertion that merits no premise in either anti-gun or pro-gun; it just doesn't fit. No, because I understand that Europeans do not carry guns with them. They leave their guns at home. If someone breaks in when you're there, and doesn't leave the instant they see you, they mean business. That's when it would not be impossible for European to shoot someone. If an intruder starts a fist fight with you in your own home, what would you suggest? dude, no one has guns here, at least talking about germany. i am 28yo and i have never seen a gun, which was not on a police or hunter, in my life. never heard the sound of a gunfire besides in movies ... the 10 or so murders per year we got in a city of 500.000 are also 90% without guns. quite happy about it, i think would be paranoid as fuck when having to expect every drunken idiot possibly carrying a gun with him ...
I have only seen one pistol that was not strapped to a cop. The only long-guns I've seen are either mine, or owned by hunters. Guns are not absolutely everywhere, and people are not constantly being shot in every town all over country. Yes, lots of people own them, but shootings are still extremely rare unless you're in Detroit, Chicago, or DC.
Why would you be paranoid to have people have guns? Would you shoot some random person for no reason? No? Then why do you expect that other people would?
On February 05 2013 02:29 Hitch-22 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 02:13 Millitron wrote:On February 05 2013 02:06 Hitch-22 wrote:On February 05 2013 02:02 Millitron wrote:On February 04 2013 22:06 zatic wrote:
I find the inter-European gun and murder rate comparisons largely meaningless as in pretty much every European country you are not allowed to own a gun for self defense purposes anyway. So I really fail to see how gun ownership would influence crime and/or gun crime significantly.
As to the differences quoted in the study. The central and northern European countries have a long tradition of hunting and competition shooting - something that just isn't there in the same extend in the southern countries. At the same time they (North/Central) happen to be better off economically, educationally, and in pretty much every other factor that would influence crime. Just because Europeans are generally not allowed to own guns for self defense does not mean that those weapons cannot be used in self defense. Would you rather get the shit kicked out of you, and possibly die, or would you choose a little jail time for a weapons charge? That's a pretty loaded statement, you basically said if anyone comes up and tries to get in a fist fight with you the only alternative to fighting is pulling out a loaded pistol. Seems to me you either a) exaggerate or b) hang around the shittiest neighborhoods and in that are the company you keep. I'm rather pro-guns but I'm not pro stupidity and that's a ridiculous assertion that merits no premise in either anti-gun or pro-gun; it just doesn't fit. No, because I understand that Europeans do not carry guns with them. They leave their guns at home. If someone breaks in when you're there, and doesn't leave the instant they see you, they mean business. That's when it would not be impossible for European to shoot someone. If an intruder starts a fist fight with you in your own home, what would you suggest? Show nested quote +"Would you rather get the shit kicked out of you, and possibly die, or would you choose a little jail time for a weapons charge?" My Apologies, where were you referencing home invasion? That's an interesting way to spin a stance or it may have been that you just simply poorly put your stance in question. Of course, if someone invades your home, you may defend yourself but without context your statement made as much sense as the light I put it in.
I know, I did not specifically say home invasion, but that was indeed what I was talking about. Zatic said Europeans do not own guns for self defense, and I was merely saying that just because they bought the gun for some other reason does not mean they cannot use it for self defense.
Even in the US, many people own guns for self defense, but do not take them when they leave the house.
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On February 04 2013 18:29 StayPhrosty wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 16:32 tokicheese wrote:
Some stats taught at my restricted weapons licensing test today.
In Canada a study found that 80% of all gun deaths in Canada is from suicides, Accidents make up 5% (most of which include a fence) while the rest are murders/justifiable homicide/cop shootings etc.
In Alberta during an economic down turn the suicide rate to gun death went up to 95%.
People like to paint guns as killing machines but the vasssttttt majority of bullets fired I would guess the high 90%s were used lawfully during hunting or target shooting.
Something else we talked about and that I found interesting. Recently a man was in his home when some people started throwing molotovs at his home in Ontario. His house was burning and he was burned badly when he went to his safe and got a gun. he fired 3 rounds in the ground in front of the thugs. They ran off and then when the police showed up later he got charged with unlawful use of a firearm. How is that not fucked up?
Every single post of Whitehorse has an insult in it for gun owners lol. Pretty sad to resort to name calling... I'm not sure how the "interesting" story helps your argument at all... All it does is paint you as a paranoid gun-proponent (and thus people may infer that you want your guns because you think the government is coming to get you) As far as those statistics go, you made a point about what most guns are used for, but not what all guns are used for. You also made no comment on a connection between gun ownership and gun usage, numbers of gun accidents, numbers of suicides, escalation of violence, etc. As well, you assert that your made up percentage on the number of bullets used for target practice somehow justifies the rest of the bullets being used for other things like killing people... So basically you disregard any connection between your statistics and actual relevance to whether someone should own a gun or not...
Are you serious lol? Let me get this straight because I think that you should be able to defend your home (your not even allowed to shoot warning shots right now) when people are lighting your house on fire makes me a paranoid gun nut... I would like to think that most people would want to defend their homes and families in the 0.000001% chance that happened but I guess I'm the only one... http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/01/20/man-faces-jail-after-protecting-home-from-masked-attackers/ I think this is pretty fucked up. 3 guys throwing molotovs at his home and at his dog house all caught on camera he fired 3 shots in the ground and then he is arrested for unsafe use of a firearm.
I have no idea how you got the idea that I think the government is gonna come take because I didn't even mention anything even close to that in my post and I never have. It's pretty obvious you read half of it and then started name calling...
Since you need things to be spoon fed to you the vast majority of bullets fired in Canada are not harming a person be it from murder, suicide or self defence. I think that would be pretty obvious with 10 million firearms and less than 1000 deaths (500+ of which are suicides and would obviously be a single shot). You wont get them for total bullets fired across Canada. It's impossible to get a number on how many bullets have been fired because there is no way to track that other than looking at how many bullets were purchased and that would be way off anyway or maybe phoning every gun owner in Canada and asking how much they have shot. Last time I went out my brother and I shot 1000 .22 rounds and 50ish .308/.30-06 so we shot more bullets than were used to harm people single handedly. I was just stating the ratio of gun deaths from various causes. That is probably lowered by our background checks and licensing system in place.
Idk why I have to look up the ownership rates/death rate for you because they have been posted all throughout the thread over and over but here. http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/canada
9,950,000 gun in Canada
23.8 guns per 100 people
I'll use the 2006 stat because it's from Stats Canada because it looks like it might be a biased site but Stats Can isn't.
2006 Murder rate by Firearm
160 total
2006 Suicide rate by firearm
586 total
So under 1.000 gun deaths with nearly 10 million guns in country seems pretty safe to me.
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Zurich15355 Posts
On February 05 2013 02:27 Corvi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 02:13 Millitron wrote:On February 05 2013 02:06 Hitch-22 wrote:On February 05 2013 02:02 Millitron wrote:On February 04 2013 22:06 zatic wrote:
I find the inter-European gun and murder rate comparisons largely meaningless as in pretty much every European country you are not allowed to own a gun for self defense purposes anyway. So I really fail to see how gun ownership would influence crime and/or gun crime significantly.
As to the differences quoted in the study. The central and northern European countries have a long tradition of hunting and competition shooting - something that just isn't there in the same extend in the southern countries. At the same time they (North/Central) happen to be better off economically, educationally, and in pretty much every other factor that would influence crime. Just because Europeans are generally not allowed to own guns for self defense does not mean that those weapons cannot be used in self defense. Would you rather get the shit kicked out of you, and possibly die, or would you choose a little jail time for a weapons charge? That's a pretty loaded statement, you basically said if anyone comes up and tries to get in a fist fight with you the only alternative to fighting is pulling out a loaded pistol. Seems to me you either a) exaggerate or b) hang around the shittiest neighborhoods and in that are the company you keep. I'm rather pro-guns but I'm not pro stupidity and that's a ridiculous assertion that merits no premise in either anti-gun or pro-gun; it just doesn't fit. No, because I understand that Europeans do not carry guns with them. They leave their guns at home. If someone breaks in when you're there, and doesn't leave the instant they see you, they mean business. That's when it would not be impossible for European to shoot someone. If an intruder starts a fist fight with you in your own home, what would you suggest? dude, no one has guns here, at least talking about germany. i am 28yo and i have never seen a gun, which was not on a police or hunter, in my life. never heard the sound of a gunfire besides in movies ...
That is nonsense, there are plenty of guns in Germany.
On February 05 2013 02:02 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 22:06 zatic wrote:
I find the inter-European gun and murder rate comparisons largely meaningless as in pretty much every European country you are not allowed to own a gun for self defense purposes anyway. So I really fail to see how gun ownership would influence crime and/or gun crime significantly.
As to the differences quoted in the study. The central and northern European countries have a long tradition of hunting and competition shooting - something that just isn't there in the same extend in the southern countries. At the same time they (North/Central) happen to be better off economically, educationally, and in pretty much every other factor that would influence crime. Just because Europeans are generally not allowed to own guns for self defense does not mean that those weapons cannot be used in self defense. Would you rather get the shit kicked out of you, and possibly die, or would you choose a little jail time for a weapons charge?
I don't see how my personal choice has anything to do with it. But of course I would rather get beat up than go to jail, ruin the rest of my life with a criminal record and above all having to live with the knowledge that I killed someone.
It is obvious that a hunter could theoretically use his gun for self defense. It would still be illegal, and without having numbers ready I would say it is extremely, extremely uncommon that guns are used in self defense in Europe.
My point is any attempt to draw a connection between gun ownership and gun/crime in Europe is pointless as the guns that are there do little to nothing to either deter or further crime.
In general the biggest difference across the Atlantic is not at all the amount or type of guns. Hell if you are going through with an assault rifle ban it'll be easier to arm yourself for the apocalypse in France or Germany than in the US. But it's the culture and may I say obsession with deadly violence in the US compared to Europe that contributes to the absurdly high number of people being shot dead.a
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On February 05 2013 04:36 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 02:27 Corvi wrote:On February 05 2013 02:13 Millitron wrote:On February 05 2013 02:06 Hitch-22 wrote:On February 05 2013 02:02 Millitron wrote:On February 04 2013 22:06 zatic wrote:
I find the inter-European gun and murder rate comparisons largely meaningless as in pretty much every European country you are not allowed to own a gun for self defense purposes anyway. So I really fail to see how gun ownership would influence crime and/or gun crime significantly.
As to the differences quoted in the study. The central and northern European countries have a long tradition of hunting and competition shooting - something that just isn't there in the same extend in the southern countries. At the same time they (North/Central) happen to be better off economically, educationally, and in pretty much every other factor that would influence crime. Just because Europeans are generally not allowed to own guns for self defense does not mean that those weapons cannot be used in self defense. Would you rather get the shit kicked out of you, and possibly die, or would you choose a little jail time for a weapons charge? That's a pretty loaded statement, you basically said if anyone comes up and tries to get in a fist fight with you the only alternative to fighting is pulling out a loaded pistol. Seems to me you either a) exaggerate or b) hang around the shittiest neighborhoods and in that are the company you keep. I'm rather pro-guns but I'm not pro stupidity and that's a ridiculous assertion that merits no premise in either anti-gun or pro-gun; it just doesn't fit. No, because I understand that Europeans do not carry guns with them. They leave their guns at home. If someone breaks in when you're there, and doesn't leave the instant they see you, they mean business. That's when it would not be impossible for European to shoot someone. If an intruder starts a fist fight with you in your own home, what would you suggest? dude, no one has guns here, at least talking about germany. i am 28yo and i have never seen a gun, which was not on a police or hunter, in my life. never heard the sound of a gunfire besides in movies ... That is nonsense, there are plenty of guns in Germany. Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 02:02 Millitron wrote:On February 04 2013 22:06 zatic wrote:
I find the inter-European gun and murder rate comparisons largely meaningless as in pretty much every European country you are not allowed to own a gun for self defense purposes anyway. So I really fail to see how gun ownership would influence crime and/or gun crime significantly.
As to the differences quoted in the study. The central and northern European countries have a long tradition of hunting and competition shooting - something that just isn't there in the same extend in the southern countries. At the same time they (North/Central) happen to be better off economically, educationally, and in pretty much every other factor that would influence crime. Just because Europeans are generally not allowed to own guns for self defense does not mean that those weapons cannot be used in self defense. Would you rather get the shit kicked out of you, and possibly die, or would you choose a little jail time for a weapons charge? I don't see how my personal choice has anything to do with it. But of course I would rather get beat up than go to jail, ruin the rest of my life with a criminal record and above all having to live with the knowledge that I killed someone. It is obvious that a hunter could theoretically use his gun for self defense. It would still be illegal, and without having numbers ready I would say it is extremely, extremely uncommon that guns are used in self defense in Europe. My point is any attempt to draw a connection between gun ownership and gun/crime in Europe is pointless as the guns that are there do little to nothing to either deter or further crime. In general the biggest difference across the Atlantic is not at all the amount or type of guns. Hell if you are going through with an assault rifle ban it'll be easier to arm yourself for the apocalypse in France or Germany than in the US. But it's the culture and may I say obsession with deadly violence in the US compared to Europe that contributes to the absurdly high number of people being shot dead.a
I know plenty of people who are 28 that have never seen a gun in the United States, why would that mean the U.S. is gun free? That is so strange an assumption.
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On February 05 2013 04:36 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 02:27 Corvi wrote:On February 05 2013 02:13 Millitron wrote:On February 05 2013 02:06 Hitch-22 wrote:On February 05 2013 02:02 Millitron wrote:On February 04 2013 22:06 zatic wrote:
I find the inter-European gun and murder rate comparisons largely meaningless as in pretty much every European country you are not allowed to own a gun for self defense purposes anyway. So I really fail to see how gun ownership would influence crime and/or gun crime significantly.
As to the differences quoted in the study. The central and northern European countries have a long tradition of hunting and competition shooting - something that just isn't there in the same extend in the southern countries. At the same time they (North/Central) happen to be better off economically, educationally, and in pretty much every other factor that would influence crime. Just because Europeans are generally not allowed to own guns for self defense does not mean that those weapons cannot be used in self defense. Would you rather get the shit kicked out of you, and possibly die, or would you choose a little jail time for a weapons charge? That's a pretty loaded statement, you basically said if anyone comes up and tries to get in a fist fight with you the only alternative to fighting is pulling out a loaded pistol. Seems to me you either a) exaggerate or b) hang around the shittiest neighborhoods and in that are the company you keep. I'm rather pro-guns but I'm not pro stupidity and that's a ridiculous assertion that merits no premise in either anti-gun or pro-gun; it just doesn't fit. No, because I understand that Europeans do not carry guns with them. They leave their guns at home. If someone breaks in when you're there, and doesn't leave the instant they see you, they mean business. That's when it would not be impossible for European to shoot someone. If an intruder starts a fist fight with you in your own home, what would you suggest? dude, no one has guns here, at least talking about germany. i am 28yo and i have never seen a gun, which was not on a police or hunter, in my life. never heard the sound of a gunfire besides in movies ... That is nonsense, there are plenty of guns in Germany. Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 02:02 Millitron wrote:On February 04 2013 22:06 zatic wrote:
I find the inter-European gun and murder rate comparisons largely meaningless as in pretty much every European country you are not allowed to own a gun for self defense purposes anyway. So I really fail to see how gun ownership would influence crime and/or gun crime significantly.
As to the differences quoted in the study. The central and northern European countries have a long tradition of hunting and competition shooting - something that just isn't there in the same extend in the southern countries. At the same time they (North/Central) happen to be better off economically, educationally, and in pretty much every other factor that would influence crime. Just because Europeans are generally not allowed to own guns for self defense does not mean that those weapons cannot be used in self defense. Would you rather get the shit kicked out of you, and possibly die, or would you choose a little jail time for a weapons charge? I don't see how my personal choice has anything to do with it. But of course I would rather get beat up than go to jail, ruin the rest of my life with a criminal record and above all having to live with the knowledge that I killed someone. It is obvious that a hunter could theoretically use his gun for self defense. It would still be illegal, and without having numbers ready I would say it is extremely, extremely uncommon that guns are used in self defense in Europe. My point is any attempt to draw a connection between gun ownership and gun/crime in Europe is pointless as the guns that are there do little to nothing to either deter or further crime. In general the biggest difference across the Atlantic is not at all the amount or type of guns. Hell if you are going through with an assault rifle ban it'll be easier to arm yourself for the apocalypse in France or Germany than in the US. But it's the culture and may I say obsession with deadly violence in the US compared to Europe that contributes to the absurdly high number of people being shot dead.a
Since you put up that numbers I wanted to know how many households own a gun in the US. some quick search revealed that 40-45% of households in the US posses a gun. For Germany your blog says 10% of households own a gun.
I would say that this is a significant difference.
Edit: Upon rereading it is less than 10% because there could be multiple gun owners in one household.
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On February 05 2013 04:06 tokicheese wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 18:29 StayPhrosty wrote:On February 04 2013 16:32 tokicheese wrote:
Some stats taught at my restricted weapons licensing test today.
In Canada a study found that 80% of all gun deaths in Canada is from suicides, Accidents make up 5% (most of which include a fence) while the rest are murders/justifiable homicide/cop shootings etc.
In Alberta during an economic down turn the suicide rate to gun death went up to 95%.
People like to paint guns as killing machines but the vasssttttt majority of bullets fired I would guess the high 90%s were used lawfully during hunting or target shooting.
Something else we talked about and that I found interesting. Recently a man was in his home when some people started throwing molotovs at his home in Ontario. His house was burning and he was burned badly when he went to his safe and got a gun. he fired 3 rounds in the ground in front of the thugs. They ran off and then when the police showed up later he got charged with unlawful use of a firearm. How is that not fucked up?
Every single post of Whitehorse has an insult in it for gun owners lol. Pretty sad to resort to name calling... I'm not sure how the "interesting" story helps your argument at all... All it does is paint you as a paranoid gun-proponent (and thus people may infer that you want your guns because you think the government is coming to get you) As far as those statistics go, you made a point about what most guns are used for, but not what all guns are used for. You also made no comment on a connection between gun ownership and gun usage, numbers of gun accidents, numbers of suicides, escalation of violence, etc. As well, you assert that your made up percentage on the number of bullets used for target practice somehow justifies the rest of the bullets being used for other things like killing people... So basically you disregard any connection between your statistics and actual relevance to whether someone should own a gun or not... Are you serious lol? Let me get this straight because I think that you should be able to defend your home (your not even allowed to shoot warning shots right now) when people are lighting your house on fire makes me a paranoid gun nut... I would like to think that most people would want to defend their homes and families in the 0.000001% chance that happened but I guess I'm the only one... http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/01/20/man-faces-jail-after-protecting-home-from-masked-attackers/ I think this is pretty fucked up. 3 guys throwing molotovs at his home and at his dog house all caught on camera he fired 3 shots in the ground and then he is arrested for unsafe use of a firearm. I have no idea how you got the idea that I think the government is gonna come take because I didn't even mention anything even close to that in my post and I never have. It's pretty obvious you read half of it and then started name calling... Since you need things to be spoon fed to you the vast majority of bullets fired in Canada are not harming a person be it from murder, suicide or self defence. I think that would be pretty obvious with 10 million firearms and less than 1000 deaths (500+ of which are suicides and would obviously be a single shot). You wont get them for total bullets fired across Canada. It's impossible to get a number on how many bullets have been fired because there is no way to track that other than looking at how many bullets were purchased and that would be way off anyway or maybe phoning every gun owner in Canada and asking how much they have shot. Last time I went out my brother and I shot 1000 .22 rounds and 50ish .308/.30-06 so we shot more bullets than were used to harm people single handedly. I was just stating the ratio of gun deaths from various causes. That is probably lowered by our background checks and licensing system in place. Idk why I have to look up the ownership rates/death rate for you because they have been posted all throughout the thread over and over but here. http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/canada9,950,000 gun in Canada 23.8 guns per 100 people I'll use the 2006 stat because it's from Stats Canada because it looks like it might be a biased site but Stats Can isn't. 2006 Murder rate by Firearm 160 total 2006 Suicide rate by firearm 586 total So under 1.000 gun deaths with nearly 10 million guns in country seems pretty safe to me.
Thats an unfair comparison given the regulations canada has in regards to ammunition and handguns. You're pretty much compearing shotguns (limited to 3 shells) to handguns (whatever limit, if any,you guys have on clip size/fireing rate) there and saying its the same.
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On February 05 2013 10:42 AdamBanks wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 04:06 tokicheese wrote:On February 04 2013 18:29 StayPhrosty wrote:On February 04 2013 16:32 tokicheese wrote:
Some stats taught at my restricted weapons licensing test today.
In Canada a study found that 80% of all gun deaths in Canada is from suicides, Accidents make up 5% (most of which include a fence) while the rest are murders/justifiable homicide/cop shootings etc.
In Alberta during an economic down turn the suicide rate to gun death went up to 95%.
People like to paint guns as killing machines but the vasssttttt majority of bullets fired I would guess the high 90%s were used lawfully during hunting or target shooting.
Something else we talked about and that I found interesting. Recently a man was in his home when some people started throwing molotovs at his home in Ontario. His house was burning and he was burned badly when he went to his safe and got a gun. he fired 3 rounds in the ground in front of the thugs. They ran off and then when the police showed up later he got charged with unlawful use of a firearm. How is that not fucked up?
Every single post of Whitehorse has an insult in it for gun owners lol. Pretty sad to resort to name calling... I'm not sure how the "interesting" story helps your argument at all... All it does is paint you as a paranoid gun-proponent (and thus people may infer that you want your guns because you think the government is coming to get you) As far as those statistics go, you made a point about what most guns are used for, but not what all guns are used for. You also made no comment on a connection between gun ownership and gun usage, numbers of gun accidents, numbers of suicides, escalation of violence, etc. As well, you assert that your made up percentage on the number of bullets used for target practice somehow justifies the rest of the bullets being used for other things like killing people... So basically you disregard any connection between your statistics and actual relevance to whether someone should own a gun or not... Are you serious lol? Let me get this straight because I think that you should be able to defend your home (your not even allowed to shoot warning shots right now) when people are lighting your house on fire makes me a paranoid gun nut... I would like to think that most people would want to defend their homes and families in the 0.000001% chance that happened but I guess I'm the only one... http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/01/20/man-faces-jail-after-protecting-home-from-masked-attackers/ I think this is pretty fucked up. 3 guys throwing molotovs at his home and at his dog house all caught on camera he fired 3 shots in the ground and then he is arrested for unsafe use of a firearm. I have no idea how you got the idea that I think the government is gonna come take because I didn't even mention anything even close to that in my post and I never have. It's pretty obvious you read half of it and then started name calling... Since you need things to be spoon fed to you the vast majority of bullets fired in Canada are not harming a person be it from murder, suicide or self defence. I think that would be pretty obvious with 10 million firearms and less than 1000 deaths (500+ of which are suicides and would obviously be a single shot). You wont get them for total bullets fired across Canada. It's impossible to get a number on how many bullets have been fired because there is no way to track that other than looking at how many bullets were purchased and that would be way off anyway or maybe phoning every gun owner in Canada and asking how much they have shot. Last time I went out my brother and I shot 1000 .22 rounds and 50ish .308/.30-06 so we shot more bullets than were used to harm people single handedly. I was just stating the ratio of gun deaths from various causes. That is probably lowered by our background checks and licensing system in place. Idk why I have to look up the ownership rates/death rate for you because they have been posted all throughout the thread over and over but here. http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/canada9,950,000 gun in Canada 23.8 guns per 100 people I'll use the 2006 stat because it's from Stats Canada because it looks like it might be a biased site but Stats Can isn't. 2006 Murder rate by Firearm 160 total 2006 Suicide rate by firearm 586 total So under 1.000 gun deaths with nearly 10 million guns in country seems pretty safe to me. Thats an unfair comparison given the regulations canada has in regards to ammunition and handguns. You're pretty much compearing shotguns (limited to 3 shells) to handguns (whatever limit, if any,you guys have on clip size/fireing rate) there and saying its the same.
How is it an unfair comparison? I'm just looking at the gun death rates which I think have to do with the licensing process in place here. You can still get a .22 with an unlimited clip size for a rifle and you can still get handguns with a limit of 10 rounds in the chamber. We're allowed to own however much ammo we please with no limits on the type of bullets other than explosive rounds/military rounds/armour piercing rounds. We can own any type of bullet be it parition/hollowpoint other than that though. I can still go to a store and buy an Ar-15 or a handgun. It's just that we have licensing in place before I can do that and I have to go get permission from the Police before I can get a restricted weapon. This takes barely any time and it's just a criminal history check.
Some restrictions are pretty retarded for clip sizes and mods for rifles though. Most shotguns have room for more than 3 shells and on some weapons like the SKS you can shave down a little piece of steel that limits the number of rounds in the magazine to bring it from the limited 5 to 7. You can't expect someone who is going to be holding up a store to only load 3 shells into their shotgun when it can be modified to have a capacity of 7 because they are scared of a fine when they are also committing armed robbery lol. I posted more about it in another post if you care to read more.
Considering the vast majority of deaths in Canada from firearms is from Suicide it doesn't matter if you have a M249 SAW with baby seeking armour piercing bullets or a single shot 100 year old .22. I don't think guns are a problem for Canadian society and I would like to able to continue going into the wilderness and hunting with my family. I don't think that's wrong.
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On February 05 2013 04:36 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 02:27 Corvi wrote:On February 05 2013 02:13 Millitron wrote:On February 05 2013 02:06 Hitch-22 wrote:On February 05 2013 02:02 Millitron wrote:On February 04 2013 22:06 zatic wrote:
I find the inter-European gun and murder rate comparisons largely meaningless as in pretty much every European country you are not allowed to own a gun for self defense purposes anyway. So I really fail to see how gun ownership would influence crime and/or gun crime significantly.
As to the differences quoted in the study. The central and northern European countries have a long tradition of hunting and competition shooting - something that just isn't there in the same extend in the southern countries. At the same time they (North/Central) happen to be better off economically, educationally, and in pretty much every other factor that would influence crime. Just because Europeans are generally not allowed to own guns for self defense does not mean that those weapons cannot be used in self defense. Would you rather get the shit kicked out of you, and possibly die, or would you choose a little jail time for a weapons charge? That's a pretty loaded statement, you basically said if anyone comes up and tries to get in a fist fight with you the only alternative to fighting is pulling out a loaded pistol. Seems to me you either a) exaggerate or b) hang around the shittiest neighborhoods and in that are the company you keep. I'm rather pro-guns but I'm not pro stupidity and that's a ridiculous assertion that merits no premise in either anti-gun or pro-gun; it just doesn't fit. No, because I understand that Europeans do not carry guns with them. They leave their guns at home. If someone breaks in when you're there, and doesn't leave the instant they see you, they mean business. That's when it would not be impossible for European to shoot someone. If an intruder starts a fist fight with you in your own home, what would you suggest? dude, no one has guns here, at least talking about germany. i am 28yo and i have never seen a gun, which was not on a police or hunter, in my life. never heard the sound of a gunfire besides in movies ... That is nonsense, there are plenty of guns in Germany. Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 02:02 Millitron wrote:On February 04 2013 22:06 zatic wrote:
I find the inter-European gun and murder rate comparisons largely meaningless as in pretty much every European country you are not allowed to own a gun for self defense purposes anyway. So I really fail to see how gun ownership would influence crime and/or gun crime significantly.
As to the differences quoted in the study. The central and northern European countries have a long tradition of hunting and competition shooting - something that just isn't there in the same extend in the southern countries. At the same time they (North/Central) happen to be better off economically, educationally, and in pretty much every other factor that would influence crime. Just because Europeans are generally not allowed to own guns for self defense does not mean that those weapons cannot be used in self defense. Would you rather get the shit kicked out of you, and possibly die, or would you choose a little jail time for a weapons charge? I don't see how my personal choice has anything to do with it. But of course I would rather get beat up than go to jail, ruin the rest of my life with a criminal record and above all having to live with the knowledge that I killed someone. It is obvious that a hunter could theoretically use his gun for self defense. It would still be illegal, and without having numbers ready I would say it is extremely, extremely uncommon that guns are used in self defense in Europe. My point is any attempt to draw a connection between gun ownership and gun/crime in Europe is pointless as the guns that are there do little to nothing to either deter or further crime. In general the biggest difference across the Atlantic is not at all the amount or type of guns. Hell if you are going through with an assault rifle ban it'll be easier to arm yourself for the apocalypse in France or Germany than in the US. But it's the culture and may I say obsession with deadly violence in the US compared to Europe that contributes to the absurdly high number of people being shot dead.a
The vast majority of defensive uses of guns do not end in anyone being shot.
http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/stats.html
"91.7% of these incidents the defensive use of a gun did not wound or kill the criminal attacker"
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Millitron, think of it this way:
If you live in a place where you are allowed guns for self defense, then an attacker may take a gun and use it for offense. The choice is really gun vs gun or no gun vs no gun.
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United States24730 Posts
On February 06 2013 01:33 hzflank wrote:
Millitron, think of it this way:
If you live in a place where you are allowed guns for self defense, then an attacker may take a gun and use it for offense. The choice is really gun vs gun or no gun vs no gun.
It will take many decades to make guns virtually disappear, so if you disarm the homeowner through legislation, then there will be a multi-decade period of gun vs no gun, with the intruder having the gun.
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Zurich15355 Posts
On February 06 2013 00:56 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 04:36 zatic wrote:On February 05 2013 02:27 Corvi wrote:On February 05 2013 02:13 Millitron wrote:On February 05 2013 02:06 Hitch-22 wrote:On February 05 2013 02:02 Millitron wrote:On February 04 2013 22:06 zatic wrote:
I find the inter-European gun and murder rate comparisons largely meaningless as in pretty much every European country you are not allowed to own a gun for self defense purposes anyway. So I really fail to see how gun ownership would influence crime and/or gun crime significantly.
As to the differences quoted in the study. The central and northern European countries have a long tradition of hunting and competition shooting - something that just isn't there in the same extend in the southern countries. At the same time they (North/Central) happen to be better off economically, educationally, and in pretty much every other factor that would influence crime. Just because Europeans are generally not allowed to own guns for self defense does not mean that those weapons cannot be used in self defense. Would you rather get the shit kicked out of you, and possibly die, or would you choose a little jail time for a weapons charge? That's a pretty loaded statement, you basically said if anyone comes up and tries to get in a fist fight with you the only alternative to fighting is pulling out a loaded pistol. Seems to me you either a) exaggerate or b) hang around the shittiest neighborhoods and in that are the company you keep. I'm rather pro-guns but I'm not pro stupidity and that's a ridiculous assertion that merits no premise in either anti-gun or pro-gun; it just doesn't fit. No, because I understand that Europeans do not carry guns with them. They leave their guns at home. If someone breaks in when you're there, and doesn't leave the instant they see you, they mean business. That's when it would not be impossible for European to shoot someone. If an intruder starts a fist fight with you in your own home, what would you suggest? dude, no one has guns here, at least talking about germany. i am 28yo and i have never seen a gun, which was not on a police or hunter, in my life. never heard the sound of a gunfire besides in movies ... That is nonsense, there are plenty of guns in Germany. On February 05 2013 02:02 Millitron wrote:On February 04 2013 22:06 zatic wrote:
I find the inter-European gun and murder rate comparisons largely meaningless as in pretty much every European country you are not allowed to own a gun for self defense purposes anyway. So I really fail to see how gun ownership would influence crime and/or gun crime significantly.
As to the differences quoted in the study. The central and northern European countries have a long tradition of hunting and competition shooting - something that just isn't there in the same extend in the southern countries. At the same time they (North/Central) happen to be better off economically, educationally, and in pretty much every other factor that would influence crime. Just because Europeans are generally not allowed to own guns for self defense does not mean that those weapons cannot be used in self defense. Would you rather get the shit kicked out of you, and possibly die, or would you choose a little jail time for a weapons charge? I don't see how my personal choice has anything to do with it. But of course I would rather get beat up than go to jail, ruin the rest of my life with a criminal record and above all having to live with the knowledge that I killed someone. It is obvious that a hunter could theoretically use his gun for self defense. It would still be illegal, and without having numbers ready I would say it is extremely, extremely uncommon that guns are used in self defense in Europe. My point is any attempt to draw a connection between gun ownership and gun/crime in Europe is pointless as the guns that are there do little to nothing to either deter or further crime. In general the biggest difference across the Atlantic is not at all the amount or type of guns. Hell if you are going through with an assault rifle ban it'll be easier to arm yourself for the apocalypse in France or Germany than in the US. But it's the culture and may I say obsession with deadly violence in the US compared to Europe that contributes to the absurdly high number of people being shot dead.a The vast majority of defensive uses of guns do not end in anyone being shot. http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/stats.html"91.7% of these incidents the defensive use of a gun did not wound or kill the criminal attacker"
I have no idea what you are trying to tell me. I am arguing against comparing the amount of guns and crime rates between European countries.
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On February 06 2013 01:46 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 01:33 hzflank wrote:
Millitron, think of it this way:
If you live in a place where you are allowed guns for self defense, then an attacker may take a gun and use it for offense. The choice is really gun vs gun or no gun vs no gun. It will take many decades to make guns virtually disappear, so if you disarm the homeowner through legislation, then there will be a multi-decade period of gun vs no gun, with the intruder having the gun.
which however wouldn't be that much that much of a problem imo unless you do live in a place with psychopaths all over the place that want to murder you for the sake of murdering you . The reason noone is scared in europe about things like that are twofold:
1) It's HIGHLY unlikely to run into someone carrying a gun. Even if you're taking the situation "robbery" as granted, as in "the guy in question has a weapon" it's really unlikely that the guy has a gun instead of something else like a knife.
(Edit: Assuming we're talking about people breaking into privat households. If you're talking about people who want to rob a gasoline station or something like that... yeah that's scary)
2) With none of the civilians being armed there's no reason for something to escalate even if you find yourself in one of those really unlikely scenarios facing someone who has a gun. Let's face it, murder as in some random dude broke in your house and shot you because he felt like it just doesn't exist in reality. If something happens it's a 16 year old kid in panic. And that's way more scary for both of you if the kid has a gun and thinks he has to instantly use it to not die himself.
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United States24730 Posts
On February 06 2013 01:56 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 01:46 micronesia wrote:On February 06 2013 01:33 hzflank wrote:
Millitron, think of it this way:
If you live in a place where you are allowed guns for self defense, then an attacker may take a gun and use it for offense. The choice is really gun vs gun or no gun vs no gun. It will take many decades to make guns virtually disappear, so if you disarm the homeowner through legislation, then there will be a multi-decade period of gun vs no gun, with the intruder having the gun. which however wouldn't be that much that much of a problem imo unless you do live in a place with psychopaths all over the place that want to murder you for the sake of murdering you . The reason noone is scared in europe about things like that are twofold: 1) It's HIGHLY unlikely to run into someone carrying a gun. Even if you're taking the situation "robbery" as granted, as in "the guy in question has a weapon" it's really unlikely that the guy has a gun instead of something else like a knife. (Edit: Assuming we're talking about people breaking into privat households. If you're talking about people who want to rob a gasoline station or something like that... yeah that's scary) 2) With none of the civilians being armed there's no reason for something to escalate even if you find yourself in one of those really unlikely scenarios facing someone who has a gun. Let's face it, murder as in some random dude broke in your house and shot you because he felt like it just doesn't exist in reality. If something happens it's a 16 year old kid in panic. And that's way more scary for both of you if the kid has a gun and thinks he has to instantly use it to not die himself.
I won't deny this necessarily, but it would take years or possibly the same number of decades as I referenced before for this transition to occur. In either case it's asking people who currently choose to keep a gun at home for self defense to give that up long before the threat they see has greatly diminished. I don't personally keep a gun at home for self defense, but I hope by taking up their stance it can become more clear why they are resistant to seemingly logical suggestions.
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On February 06 2013 01:48 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 00:56 Millitron wrote:On February 05 2013 04:36 zatic wrote:On February 05 2013 02:27 Corvi wrote:On February 05 2013 02:13 Millitron wrote:On February 05 2013 02:06 Hitch-22 wrote:On February 05 2013 02:02 Millitron wrote:On February 04 2013 22:06 zatic wrote:
I find the inter-European gun and murder rate comparisons largely meaningless as in pretty much every European country you are not allowed to own a gun for self defense purposes anyway. So I really fail to see how gun ownership would influence crime and/or gun crime significantly.
As to the differences quoted in the study. The central and northern European countries have a long tradition of hunting and competition shooting - something that just isn't there in the same extend in the southern countries. At the same time they (North/Central) happen to be better off economically, educationally, and in pretty much every other factor that would influence crime. Just because Europeans are generally not allowed to own guns for self defense does not mean that those weapons cannot be used in self defense. Would you rather get the shit kicked out of you, and possibly die, or would you choose a little jail time for a weapons charge? That's a pretty loaded statement, you basically said if anyone comes up and tries to get in a fist fight with you the only alternative to fighting is pulling out a loaded pistol. Seems to me you either a) exaggerate or b) hang around the shittiest neighborhoods and in that are the company you keep. I'm rather pro-guns but I'm not pro stupidity and that's a ridiculous assertion that merits no premise in either anti-gun or pro-gun; it just doesn't fit. No, because I understand that Europeans do not carry guns with them. They leave their guns at home. If someone breaks in when you're there, and doesn't leave the instant they see you, they mean business. That's when it would not be impossible for European to shoot someone. If an intruder starts a fist fight with you in your own home, what would you suggest? dude, no one has guns here, at least talking about germany. i am 28yo and i have never seen a gun, which was not on a police or hunter, in my life. never heard the sound of a gunfire besides in movies ... That is nonsense, there are plenty of guns in Germany. On February 05 2013 02:02 Millitron wrote:On February 04 2013 22:06 zatic wrote:
I find the inter-European gun and murder rate comparisons largely meaningless as in pretty much every European country you are not allowed to own a gun for self defense purposes anyway. So I really fail to see how gun ownership would influence crime and/or gun crime significantly.
As to the differences quoted in the study. The central and northern European countries have a long tradition of hunting and competition shooting - something that just isn't there in the same extend in the southern countries. At the same time they (North/Central) happen to be better off economically, educationally, and in pretty much every other factor that would influence crime. Just because Europeans are generally not allowed to own guns for self defense does not mean that those weapons cannot be used in self defense. Would you rather get the shit kicked out of you, and possibly die, or would you choose a little jail time for a weapons charge? I don't see how my personal choice has anything to do with it. But of course I would rather get beat up than go to jail, ruin the rest of my life with a criminal record and above all having to live with the knowledge that I killed someone. It is obvious that a hunter could theoretically use his gun for self defense. It would still be illegal, and without having numbers ready I would say it is extremely, extremely uncommon that guns are used in self defense in Europe. My point is any attempt to draw a connection between gun ownership and gun/crime in Europe is pointless as the guns that are there do little to nothing to either deter or further crime. In general the biggest difference across the Atlantic is not at all the amount or type of guns. Hell if you are going through with an assault rifle ban it'll be easier to arm yourself for the apocalypse in France or Germany than in the US. But it's the culture and may I say obsession with deadly violence in the US compared to Europe that contributes to the absurdly high number of people being shot dead.a The vast majority of defensive uses of guns do not end in anyone being shot. http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/stats.html"91.7% of these incidents the defensive use of a gun did not wound or kill the criminal attacker" I have no idea what you are trying to tell me. I am arguing against comparing the amount of guns and crime rates between European countries.
Several posts ago, you said Europeans do not have guns for self defense. I said that simply because they bought the gun to hunt or target practice does not mean they cannot use it for self defense. I added that many might choose to use a gun in self defense rather than be beaten and possibly killed, because a weapons charge isn't as bad as dying. You said that you would not shoot someone, because you would go to jail practically forever, and you'd feel guilty for killing. I then pointed out that the vast majority of self-defense gun uses end in absolutely no one being shot, or even shot at.
I think what happened here, is that I posted a response to something you said, but the conversation had moved on, and you assumed what I was saying was about the more recent posts. Probably just a misunderstanding.
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Zurich15355 Posts
On February 06 2013 02:11 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 01:48 zatic wrote:On February 06 2013 00:56 Millitron wrote:On February 05 2013 04:36 zatic wrote:On February 05 2013 02:27 Corvi wrote:On February 05 2013 02:13 Millitron wrote:On February 05 2013 02:06 Hitch-22 wrote:On February 05 2013 02:02 Millitron wrote:On February 04 2013 22:06 zatic wrote:
I find the inter-European gun and murder rate comparisons largely meaningless as in pretty much every European country you are not allowed to own a gun for self defense purposes anyway. So I really fail to see how gun ownership would influence crime and/or gun crime significantly.
As to the differences quoted in the study. The central and northern European countries have a long tradition of hunting and competition shooting - something that just isn't there in the same extend in the southern countries. At the same time they (North/Central) happen to be better off economically, educationally, and in pretty much every other factor that would influence crime. Just because Europeans are generally not allowed to own guns for self defense does not mean that those weapons cannot be used in self defense. Would you rather get the shit kicked out of you, and possibly die, or would you choose a little jail time for a weapons charge? That's a pretty loaded statement, you basically said if anyone comes up and tries to get in a fist fight with you the only alternative to fighting is pulling out a loaded pistol. Seems to me you either a) exaggerate or b) hang around the shittiest neighborhoods and in that are the company you keep. I'm rather pro-guns but I'm not pro stupidity and that's a ridiculous assertion that merits no premise in either anti-gun or pro-gun; it just doesn't fit. No, because I understand that Europeans do not carry guns with them. They leave their guns at home. If someone breaks in when you're there, and doesn't leave the instant they see you, they mean business. That's when it would not be impossible for European to shoot someone. If an intruder starts a fist fight with you in your own home, what would you suggest? dude, no one has guns here, at least talking about germany. i am 28yo and i have never seen a gun, which was not on a police or hunter, in my life. never heard the sound of a gunfire besides in movies ... That is nonsense, there are plenty of guns in Germany. On February 05 2013 02:02 Millitron wrote:On February 04 2013 22:06 zatic wrote:
I find the inter-European gun and murder rate comparisons largely meaningless as in pretty much every European country you are not allowed to own a gun for self defense purposes anyway. So I really fail to see how gun ownership would influence crime and/or gun crime significantly.
As to the differences quoted in the study. The central and northern European countries have a long tradition of hunting and competition shooting - something that just isn't there in the same extend in the southern countries. At the same time they (North/Central) happen to be better off economically, educationally, and in pretty much every other factor that would influence crime. Just because Europeans are generally not allowed to own guns for self defense does not mean that those weapons cannot be used in self defense. Would you rather get the shit kicked out of you, and possibly die, or would you choose a little jail time for a weapons charge? I don't see how my personal choice has anything to do with it. But of course I would rather get beat up than go to jail, ruin the rest of my life with a criminal record and above all having to live with the knowledge that I killed someone. It is obvious that a hunter could theoretically use his gun for self defense. It would still be illegal, and without having numbers ready I would say it is extremely, extremely uncommon that guns are used in self defense in Europe. My point is any attempt to draw a connection between gun ownership and gun/crime in Europe is pointless as the guns that are there do little to nothing to either deter or further crime. In general the biggest difference across the Atlantic is not at all the amount or type of guns. Hell if you are going through with an assault rifle ban it'll be easier to arm yourself for the apocalypse in France or Germany than in the US. But it's the culture and may I say obsession with deadly violence in the US compared to Europe that contributes to the absurdly high number of people being shot dead.a The vast majority of defensive uses of guns do not end in anyone being shot. http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/stats.html"91.7% of these incidents the defensive use of a gun did not wound or kill the criminal attacker" I have no idea what you are trying to tell me. I am arguing against comparing the amount of guns and crime rates between European countries. Several posts ago, you said Europeans do not have guns for self defense. I said that simply because they bought the gun to hunt or target practice does not mean they cannot use it for self defense. I added that many might choose to use a gun in self defense rather than be beaten and possibly killed, because a weapons charge isn't as bad as dying. You said that you would not shoot someone, because you would go to jail practically forever, and you'd feel guilty for killing. I then pointed out that the vast majority of self-defense gun uses end in absolutely no one being shot, or even shot at. I think what happened here, is that I posted a response to something you said, but the conversation had moved on, and you assumed what I was saying was about the more recent posts. Probably just a misunderstanding.
OK fair enough.
It's really not like that in Europe though. Speaking for Germany: Just having your gun in any ready state for self defense purposes would already be a criminal offense. Carrying without a permit could easily get you jail time, and just loading your gun or in fact having it anywhere but unloaded in a certified gun safe is a (criminal) offense. And of course, should you ever get caught doing any of that you can say goodbye to legally owning a gun forever. So that is why I doubt anyone would get a gun legally with the intent to use it for self defense.
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On February 06 2013 03:41 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 02:11 Millitron wrote:On February 06 2013 01:48 zatic wrote:On February 06 2013 00:56 Millitron wrote:On February 05 2013 04:36 zatic wrote:On February 05 2013 02:27 Corvi wrote:On February 05 2013 02:13 Millitron wrote:On February 05 2013 02:06 Hitch-22 wrote:On February 05 2013 02:02 Millitron wrote:On February 04 2013 22:06 zatic wrote:
I find the inter-European gun and murder rate comparisons largely meaningless as in pretty much every European country you are not allowed to own a gun for self defense purposes anyway. So I really fail to see how gun ownership would influence crime and/or gun crime significantly.
As to the differences quoted in the study. The central and northern European countries have a long tradition of hunting and competition shooting - something that just isn't there in the same extend in the southern countries. At the same time they (North/Central) happen to be better off economically, educationally, and in pretty much every other factor that would influence crime. Just because Europeans are generally not allowed to own guns for self defense does not mean that those weapons cannot be used in self defense. Would you rather get the shit kicked out of you, and possibly die, or would you choose a little jail time for a weapons charge? That's a pretty loaded statement, you basically said if anyone comes up and tries to get in a fist fight with you the only alternative to fighting is pulling out a loaded pistol. Seems to me you either a) exaggerate or b) hang around the shittiest neighborhoods and in that are the company you keep. I'm rather pro-guns but I'm not pro stupidity and that's a ridiculous assertion that merits no premise in either anti-gun or pro-gun; it just doesn't fit. No, because I understand that Europeans do not carry guns with them. They leave their guns at home. If someone breaks in when you're there, and doesn't leave the instant they see you, they mean business. That's when it would not be impossible for European to shoot someone. If an intruder starts a fist fight with you in your own home, what would you suggest? dude, no one has guns here, at least talking about germany. i am 28yo and i have never seen a gun, which was not on a police or hunter, in my life. never heard the sound of a gunfire besides in movies ... That is nonsense, there are plenty of guns in Germany. On February 05 2013 02:02 Millitron wrote:On February 04 2013 22:06 zatic wrote:
I find the inter-European gun and murder rate comparisons largely meaningless as in pretty much every European country you are not allowed to own a gun for self defense purposes anyway. So I really fail to see how gun ownership would influence crime and/or gun crime significantly.
As to the differences quoted in the study. The central and northern European countries have a long tradition of hunting and competition shooting - something that just isn't there in the same extend in the southern countries. At the same time they (North/Central) happen to be better off economically, educationally, and in pretty much every other factor that would influence crime. Just because Europeans are generally not allowed to own guns for self defense does not mean that those weapons cannot be used in self defense. Would you rather get the shit kicked out of you, and possibly die, or would you choose a little jail time for a weapons charge? I don't see how my personal choice has anything to do with it. But of course I would rather get beat up than go to jail, ruin the rest of my life with a criminal record and above all having to live with the knowledge that I killed someone. It is obvious that a hunter could theoretically use his gun for self defense. It would still be illegal, and without having numbers ready I would say it is extremely, extremely uncommon that guns are used in self defense in Europe. My point is any attempt to draw a connection between gun ownership and gun/crime in Europe is pointless as the guns that are there do little to nothing to either deter or further crime. In general the biggest difference across the Atlantic is not at all the amount or type of guns. Hell if you are going through with an assault rifle ban it'll be easier to arm yourself for the apocalypse in France or Germany than in the US. But it's the culture and may I say obsession with deadly violence in the US compared to Europe that contributes to the absurdly high number of people being shot dead.a The vast majority of defensive uses of guns do not end in anyone being shot. http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/stats.html"91.7% of these incidents the defensive use of a gun did not wound or kill the criminal attacker" I have no idea what you are trying to tell me. I am arguing against comparing the amount of guns and crime rates between European countries. Several posts ago, you said Europeans do not have guns for self defense. I said that simply because they bought the gun to hunt or target practice does not mean they cannot use it for self defense. I added that many might choose to use a gun in self defense rather than be beaten and possibly killed, because a weapons charge isn't as bad as dying. You said that you would not shoot someone, because you would go to jail practically forever, and you'd feel guilty for killing. I then pointed out that the vast majority of self-defense gun uses end in absolutely no one being shot, or even shot at. I think what happened here, is that I posted a response to something you said, but the conversation had moved on, and you assumed what I was saying was about the more recent posts. Probably just a misunderstanding. OK fair enough. It's really not like that in Europe though. Speaking for Germany: Just having your gun in any ready state for self defense purposes would already be a criminal offense. Carrying without a permit could easily get you jail time, and just loading your gun or in fact having it anywhere but unloaded in a certified gun safe is a (criminal) offense. And of course, should you ever get caught doing any of that you can say goodbye to legally owning a gun forever. So that is why I doubt anyone would get a gun legally with the intent to use it for self defense.
Makes more sense to get a dog for self defense rather than a gun in alot of countries.
edit: i take it back, the second some of the people here thought u had a dog they'd want a tiger.
if you outlaw tigers only criminals will have them...
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