If you're seeing this topic then another mass shooting hap…

Myth: Guns are not a good deterrent to crime

Fact: Guns prevent an estimated 2.5 million crimes a year or 6,849 every day. Often the gun is never fired and no blood (including the criminal’s) is shed.

Fact: It seems to be slowing down property crime (especially burglaries). The chart shows the legal handgun supply in America (mainly in civilian hands) to the property crime rate.

Fact: Every day 550 rapes, 1,100 murders, and 5,200 other violent crimes are prevented just by showing a gun. In less than 0.9% of these instances is the gun ever actually fired.

62 Richard Lumb, Paul Friday, City of Charlotte Gunshot Study, Department of Criminal Justice, 1994
63 Homicides and Non-Fatal Shootings: A Report on the First 6 Months Of 2009, Milwaukee Homicide
Review Commission, July 13, 2009
64 Firearm-related Injury Incidents in 1999 – Annual Report, San Francisco Department of Public Health
and San Francisco Injury Center, February 2002
65 Targeting Guns, Dr. Gary Kleck, Criminologist, Florida State University, Aldine, 1997
66 National Crime Victimization Survey, 2000, Bureau of Justice Statistics, BATF estimates on handgun
supply
67 Ibid Handgun Supply Millions
National Crime Victimization Survey, 2000, Bureau of
Justice Statistics, BATE firearm ownership ests.
Gun Facts

Fact: 60% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they
knew the victim was armed. 40% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided
committing crimes when they thought the victim might be armed.68
Fact: Felons report that they avoid entering houses where people are at home because
they fear being shot.69
Fact: 59% of the burglaries in Britain, which has tough gun control laws, are “hot
burglaries”70 which are burglaries committed while the home is occupied by the
owner/renter. By contrast, the U.S., with more lenient gun control laws, has a “hot
burglary” rate of only 13%.71
Fact: Washington D.C. has essentially banned gun ownership since 1976 and has a
murder rate of 56.9 per 100,000. Across the river in Arlington, Virginia, gun ownership is
less restricted. There, the murder rate is just 1.6 per 100,000, less than three percent of
the Washington, D.C. rate.72
Fact: 26% of all retail businesses report keeping a gun on the premises for crime
control.73
Fact: In 1982, Kennesaw, GA passed a law requiring heads of households to keep at least
one firearm in the house. The residential burglary rate dropped 89% the following year.74
Fact: A survey of felons revealed the following:75
• 74% of felons agreed that, "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at
home is that they fear being shot during the crime."
• 57% of felons polled agreed, "criminals are more

Myth: Private guns are used to commit violent crimes
Fact: 90% of all violent crimes in the U.S. do not involve firearms of any type.76
Fact: Even in crimes where the offender possessed a gun during the commission of the
crime, 83% did not use or threaten to use the gun.77

68 Armed and Considered Dangerous: A Survey of Felons and Their Firearms, James Wright and Peter
Rossi, Aldine, 1986
69 Ibid
70 A “hot burglary” is when the burglar enters a home while the residents are there
71 Dr. Gary Kleck, Criminologist, Florida State University (1997) and Kopel (1992 and 1999)
72 Crime in the United States, FBI, 1998
73 Crime Against Small Business, U.S. Small Business Administration, Senate Document No. 91-14, 1969
74 Crime Control Through the Private Use of Armed Force, Dr. Gary Kleck, Social Problems, February
1988
75 The Armed Criminal in America: A Survey of Incarcerated Felons, U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics
Federal Firearms Offenders study, 1997: National Institute of Justice, Research Report, July 1985,
Department of Justice
76 Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, 1998

On February 20 2012 11:46 clementdudu wrote:

the problem wouldnt be to find ONE french tler with a gun,it would be to find a french with a gun.is there something like a shooting range in france?quite a few hunters in some regions but thats it.

On February 20 2012 11:46 allerion wrote:
Give me one good reason why I shouldn't own my guns.

On February 20 2012 11:50 Djzapz wrote:

1- Your post was pretty short, I have no way to know what kind of person you are... Really, for all I know you may not be a clever person. There's a chance you'll shoot yourself or someone you love. Alternatively, someone you love may shoot you or themselves.
2- You may be a nutter, and who knows, maybe you'll end up killing an innocent person with it. (Psychosis, etc.)
3- It's a waste of money for a vast majority of people. It'll just stay there doing nothing.
4- Another thing you can lose/have stolen from you...

etc.

On February 20 2012 11:49 Millitron wrote:

As I said, the graph is not "Percentage of people who own guns" its "# of guns per 100 people". It says nothing of how many of those guns are owned by the same person. Its a safe bet to assume that many of those hunters own far more than 1 gun.

On February 20 2012 11:50 Djzapz wrote:

1- Your post was pretty short, I have no way to know what kind of person you are... Really, for all I know you may not be a clever person. There's a chance you'll shoot yourself or someone you love. Alternatively, someone you love may shoot you or themselves.
2- You may be a nutter, and who knows, maybe you'll end up killing an innocent person with it. (Psychosis, etc.)
3- It's a waste of money for a vast majority of people. It'll just stay there doing nothing.
4- Another thing you can lose/have stolen from you...

etc.

On February 20 2012 11:50 Djzapz wrote:

1- Your post was pretty short, I have no way to know what kind of person you are... Really, for all I know you may not be a clever person. There's a chance you'll shoot yourself or someone you love. Alternatively, someone you love may shoot you or themselves.
2- You may be a nutter, and who knows, maybe you'll end up killing an innocent person with it. (Psychosis, etc.)
3- It's a waste of money for a vast majority of people. It'll just stay there doing nothing.
4- Another thing you can lose/have stolen from you...

etc.

On February 20 2012 12:01 setzer wrote:


1- He could just as easily fall down the stairs and break his neck. If he has a family, this is where proper gun safety applies. Accidents happen because there is a lack of responsiblity.
2- I agree people who can not demonstrate mental responsibility and understanding of firearm ownership don't deserve to have one
3- We live in a materialistic world. A boat is useless for many people the vast majority of the year
4- So is most everything in your possession. If you marry someday (assuming you haven't here...) make sure you tell your betrothed you didn't buy a ring because it could be stolen

On February 20 2012 12:05 scaban84 wrote:

You might be a nutter who would run over innocent people therefore you shouldn't own a car.

See how stupid that sounds?

On February 20 2012 12:05 allerion wrote:


1- There is a chance I'll run over someone with my car. There is a chance i'll cut off a finger with a kitchen knife. There is a chance I'll fall down 23 flights of stairs. There is a chance I'll blow up my house. There is a chance I'll rape someone. There is a chance I'll get some disease which has no cure. All of these are more likely than me shooting myself or someone else, yet no one tries to regulate people have a car, a kitchen knife, coordination, various things that go boom, phalluses, and other things.

2- Show me a first world country where a legally insane person can own a firearm.

3- Who are you to tell me how to spend my money? I'm assuming you think I bought my firearms because of self-defense reasons. Wrong. I just think they're cool. Do you think starcraft is cool? Yes? Well, you're probably never going to NEED it, so why buy it?

4- Everything can be stolen from you. Stolen possessions aren't that big of deal in the grand scheme of things.

On February 20 2012 11:37 Djzapz wrote:

I'm especially bothered by that part of your post. May seem obvious, but have you ever heard "you don't compare apples and oranges"? Any half decent statistician (or person who's undergone any kind of high education) would point out that you can't compare different countries like because there's a WORLD of different conjunctures that you haven't analysed. The lack of correlation of data between distinct countries does not imply the lack of causation of a concept which should be analysed over time.

Also I feel the need to mention that statistics in every country are taken differently. For instance, unemployment is calculated differently in Canada than it is in the US (the criteria to be considered "unemployed" are different). The way guns are counted is obviously inaccurate with different degrees of error in each country. For instance, the US has a f'load of illegal weapons that are unaccounted for.

So what do we have as far as studies on guns? A bunch of PhDs in soft sciences that are on both sides - some say guns are good, others say guns are bad - some are funded by republicans, others are funded by organizations for traumatized victims of violent crimes.

Also, you use some graphs in your thread and the cited source is "small arms survey". Just thought you should ponder about that. Also note that the first graph sorts data in absolute numbers (with the rate on the side) and the second one sorts it in rates. This is deceptive, and doesn't work. Those graphics were not meant to be seen together, at least not by anyone honest. Provided everything was made fairly, the first graph would favor big countries for making the list, for instance. There is no sense of objectivity.

Let's end this discussion once and for all. Below is an excerpt. The entirety of the document is here, start on page 11: (http://gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/6.0/Gun-Facts-v6.0-screen.pdf)

The sources are fine, check for yourself. For those claiming republican/democrat bias.


Myth: Guns are not a good deterrent to crime

Fact: Guns prevent an estimated 2.5 million crimes a year or 6,849 every day. Often the gun is never fired and no blood (including the criminal’s) is shed.

Fact: It seems to be slowing down property crime (especially burglaries). The chart shows the legal handgun supply in America (mainly in civilian hands) to the property crime rate.

Fact: Every day 550 rapes, 1,100 murders, and 5,200 other violent crimes are prevented just by showing a gun. In less than 0.9% of these instances is the gun ever actually fired.

62 Richard Lumb, Paul Friday, City of Charlotte Gunshot Study, Department of Criminal Justice, 1994
63 Homicides and Non-Fatal Shootings: A Report on the First 6 Months Of 2009, Milwaukee Homicide
Review Commission, July 13, 2009
64 Firearm-related Injury Incidents in 1999 – Annual Report, San Francisco Department of Public Health
and San Francisco Injury Center, February 2002
65 Targeting Guns, Dr. Gary Kleck, Criminologist, Florida State University, Aldine, 1997
66 National Crime Victimization Survey, 2000, Bureau of Justice Statistics, BATF estimates on handgun
supply
67 Ibid Handgun Supply Millions
National Crime Victimization Survey, 2000, Bureau of
Justice Statistics, BATE firearm ownership ests.
Gun Facts



Fact: 60% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided committing crimes when they
knew the victim was armed. 40% of convicted felons admitted that they avoided
committing crimes when they thought the victim might be armed.68
Fact: Felons report that they avoid entering houses where people are at home because
they fear being shot.69
Fact: 59% of the burglaries in Britain, which has tough gun control laws, are “hot
burglaries”70 which are burglaries committed while the home is occupied by the
owner/renter. By contrast, the U.S., with more lenient gun control laws, has a “hot
burglary” rate of only 13%.71
Fact: Washington D.C. has essentially banned gun ownership since 1976 and has a
murder rate of 56.9 per 100,000. Across the river in Arlington, Virginia, gun ownership is
less restricted. There, the murder rate is just 1.6 per 100,000, less than three percent of
the Washington, D.C. rate.72
Fact: 26% of all retail businesses report keeping a gun on the premises for crime
control.73
Fact: In 1982, Kennesaw, GA passed a law requiring heads of households to keep at least
one firearm in the house. The residential burglary rate dropped 89% the following year.74
Fact: A survey of felons revealed the following5
• 74% of felons agreed that, "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at
home is that they fear being shot during the crime."
• 57% of felons polled agreed, "criminals are more

Myth: Private guns are used to commit violent crimes
Fact: 90% of all violent crimes in the U.S. do not involve firearms of any type.76
Fact: Even in crimes where the offender possessed a gun during the commission of the
crime, 83% did not use or threaten to use the gun.77

68 Armed and Considered Dangerous: A Survey of Felons and Their Firearms, James Wright and Peter
Rossi, Aldine, 1986
69 Ibid
70 A “hot burglary” is when the burglar enters a home while the residents are there
71 Dr. Gary Kleck, Criminologist, Florida State University (1997) and Kopel (1992 and 1999)
72 Crime in the United States, FBI, 1998
73 Crime Against Small Business, U.S. Small Business Administration, Senate Document No. 91-14, 1969
74 Crime Control Through the Private Use of Armed Force, Dr. Gary Kleck, Social Problems, February
1988
75 The Armed Criminal in America: A Survey of Incarcerated Felons, U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics
Federal Firearms Offenders study, 1997: National Institute of Justice, Research Report, July 1985,
Department of Justice
76 Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, 1998

On February 20 2012 12:08 DuckS wrote:
I guess i'll chip in.

Personally, I hate guns. I don't care for the second amendment. It just seems.. inefficient to me. Would you feel comfy if you knew a lot of people around you were carrying around guns on a daily basis? I surely wouldn't. People are stupid. Guns end lives. All it takes is one irrational idiot. And, unfortunately, I live in a society surrounded by a lot of them.

Now, the act of concealing these weapons. I don't understand this. If you have to conceal it, that means to hide it - to put it away somewhere where it will probably hamper your ability to use it efficiently. That being said, what's the point of having the gun in the first place if that's the case? This isn't hollywood. If i'm walking on a street, and a guy wants to mug me for my wallet, he's not going to give me a 30 second head start. He's going to be fast and quiet about it. And, wouldn't a gun heighten the threat of the situation..? He was only looking for my wallet. But now I pose as a threat to him - I have the ability to end his life, as he, mine. Adrenaline will play a role. There are too many factors in it - but the introduction of a gun into the equation can only make things worse.

And as far as protecting your home goes.. How? Unless if you live alone and just.. kind of.. keep your gun laying around or something? A majority of the time, you're going to have family that you were looking to protect in the first place. You're going to put your gun up. On safety - you don't want your kids to run into this thing. So picture this - it's 3 A.M., you're fast asleep, but woken up by a break of your window, or something of the sort. Do you really have the time to rummage around your stuff looking for this gun? Some people keep it on safety, some separate the ammo from the weapon itself, etc. The most common times for burgalries are during night or when you're not home. They aren't looking to harm you (most of the time), they want your stuff. And, going back to my previous argument, adding a gun into the equation will only complicate the matter.

So, just my opinion. I'm not comfy around guns. Don't get me wrong, i'm educated in the use of them. But I just don't like the idea of everyone and their brother owning a gun.. Especially Americans - just the attitude we conceive of ourselves after owning a gun disturbs me.

On February 20 2012 12:07 Djzapz wrote:

1- Handled.
2- Insane people aren't always legally insane.
3- My starcrafts don't fall and shoot toddlers in the face. I'd like to be allowed to tell you how to spend your money if I thought you were a risk to society. Fact is, reasonable people with guns don't scare me - but who the hell are you? I don't know you.
4- ;( sorry about number 4.

Give me pls a single scenario where you really need a gun in your house -.-

Find a single french TLer who owns a gun, and I will agree with everything you said. Just a single one. 30% is just an absurd number. Citizens are not allowed to have any guns, there is nothing like a license (except for hunting). So that would mean that either 30% of the population are hunters, or that 29% of the population is illegally carrying weapons?

Civilian Guns

Number of Privately Owned Firearms
The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in France is 19,000,000

Rate of Civilian Firearm Possession per 100 Population
The rate of private gun ownership in France is 31.2 firearms per 100 people

Number of Privately Owned Firearms - World Ranking
In a comparison of the number of privately owned guns in 178 countries, France ranked at No. 5

Rate of Privately Owned Firearms per 100 Population - World Ranking
In a comparison of the rate of private gun ownership in 179 countries, France ranked at No. 12

Number of Registered Firearms
The number of registered guns in France is reported to be 2,802,057

Rate of Registered Firearms per 100 Population
The rate of registered firearms per 100 people in France is 4.45



Number of Law Enforcement Firearms
Police in France are reported to have 217,7475 firearms

On February 20 2012 12:21 Millitron wrote:

A poster earlier posted a big list of statistics that showed that burglaries where people were in their home when the break in occurred are more common in regions with more gun control.

On February 20 2012 12:27 ClanRH.TV wrote:


First off, it does not say and never said 30 PERCENT....its 30 guns exist per 100 people. Please learn to interpret a damn graph before making yourself look terrible. To clarify it a bit here are the actual statistics....they have revealed to me that you must be a pretty sheltered little french boy:

On February 20 2012 03:06 Mohdoo wrote:
When I compare the murder rate in the US to that of other developed countries, I wish we had less guns. Its really staggering just how much more murder occurs here compared to Japan or Korea

On February 20 2012 12:35 ReturnStroke wrote:


Japan has a lot of corruption in the police force. As in not investigating something as a murder if they aren't positive they can catch the guy.

On February 20 2012 12:19 ClanRH.TV wrote:
1st.) How many times are you going to edit you post? Try focusing on getting to the point instead of trying to say something in the most complicated manner (while I must add, saying nothing rather useful or relevant) and having to edit it everytime you remember a better synonym

2.) The point of doing research is to collect data and compare it. You "feel the need to mention that statistics in every country are taken differently." I spoke with the man conducting the study named Dr. Obvious and he said that one takes into account such things when doing research. That is why they paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to get a doctorate.

3.) What are you even trying to do here? Last time I checked math isn't referred to as a soft science. If your referring to the fact that this is correlation research, then captain obvious has stuck again. Regardless, when the information from correlational research begins to stack up on one side or another, causation can pretty much be deduced. You mention that the gun control research is "funded by politians," when this is all but untrue. There are many cases of indepedent research being done on the topic. To support these two points I will reference this post on pg. 23:

The first graph has presented a RATE (not an absolute number....whatever you're actually referring to here?!??") It's HOMICIDES PER 100,000 people. Finally you got something right in that you concluded that the second graph was factually presented in terms of a rate!

Terrible post honestly.