EPTAnd you expect people to say:
"Oh, i guess massmurder is ok when it's commited by angry Soldiers:".
WTF?
Haditha Massacre - Page 6
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Velr
Switzerland10683 Posts
And you expect people to say: "Oh, i guess massmurder is ok when it's commited by angry Soldiers:". WTF? | ||
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nodnod
New Zealand172 Posts
On January 24 2012 19:54 Velr wrote: Then how is the correct word for this act if not terrorism or massmurder? They killed civilians out of rage/hate... Just imagine this would happen the other way round... I'm sure you wouldn't call them Terrorists... ... ... -.- The key difference here is that the US military followed the proper legal process of prosecuting the offender, and he is not being portrayed as a hero for sure. It's a despicable act but you have to commend the US military for taking the responsibility and handling the matter through the appropriate channel. On the other hand, I think we all know how terrorists are being worshiped as 'martyrs' back in their home country/province. | ||
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Detri
United Kingdom683 Posts
Who's to say how you would react seeing your best friend blown up beside you? Do you know? Seemingly the guy just snapped. | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On January 24 2012 19:53 zalz wrote: There is free press in Iraq and freedom of speech. Neither existed under Saddam. The people of Iraq want the US to get out? They can say that just as easily. Their last democratic elections were widely considered a succes. Doesn't matter what side of the argument you fall on. You can't deny Iraqi's are more free now then under Saddam. I am sure that East-Germany was stable under the Stasi aswell. Doesn't mean it was a good system. People staying in Iraq was somewhat influenced by the fact that your entire family would get thrown in jail if your moving was considered political in any way. They might have wanted to run for a long time but simply couldn't under Saddam. People aren't staying in North-Korea because it's paradise on earth, sometimes you simply can't leave due to the government. But the USA can't stop the bombings. Only the Iraqi people can stop those bombings. I think it was worth it. Had the USA not done what it did then Saddam would still be in power today. Still running his criminal totalitarian regime. Killing off half the party, forcing family members to cheer for the murder of their own. It's not always about practical things. Some times you just have to say that you cannot tolerate a regime that is so morally bankrupt. He even had a man chopped up and send the body parts to his wife. Iraq's future is a good one at the moment. If Saddam was still alive or one of his sons had taken over? The place would still be a hellhole. A decent post is a decent post. Postcount doesn't say much. Freedom is not a good measure of anything by itself really. But anyway their free press and freedom of speech is laughable by any western standard, in some areas they have even lesser freedom of speech than before. Saying they are better now than under Saddam's regime is true only so-so if at all. And the cost of achieving so, compared to the cost of overthrowing East-German regime, was quite possibly far from worth it considering hundreds of thousands that had to die and countless others that had to suffer. As for their new freedoms : torture and corruption not unlike in Saddam's days | ||
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bayside871
United States13 Posts
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On January 24 2012 20:14 nodnod wrote: The key difference here is that the US military followed the proper legal process of prosecuting the offender, and he is not being portrayed as a hero for sure. It's a despicable act but you have to commend the US military for taking the responsibility and handling the matter through the appropriate channel. On the other hand, I think we all know how terrorists are being worshiped as 'martyrs' back in their home country/province. And you wonder why ? Maybe when murderers of innocents get slap on the wrist in US, terrorists who kill US innocents are viewed as just performing due justice. Is it fucked up, yes, but it is far from surprising or unexpected reaction to injustice. US might try to think what message are they sending to the world by not punishing murderer's of innocent foreigners and how it might just incite even more hatred and violence against them. And frankly at this point rightfully so. | ||
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Bleak
Turkey3059 Posts
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eXeJJu
Switzerland55 Posts
On January 24 2012 07:50 gruff wrote: Great, I'll use it the next time I commit a serious crime. next time eh | ||
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Pika Chu
Romania2510 Posts
I believe this sets a very bad precedent, even in WWII sometimes commanders chose to punish people who fired at innocent civilians (i know of a few stories that happened in Romania). | ||
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
On January 24 2012 07:36 Yuljan wrote: I know there will surely be someone who will justify this ruling but im quite appaled. How can a civilized country treat human beings that differently. Iraqi lives apparently mean nothing to the US. Soldiers aren't civilians. Different laws apply. It's that simple. | ||
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StyLeD
United States2965 Posts
On January 24 2012 08:44 Notfragile wrote: "the killings were methodical and without resistance" "Insufficient evidence has come to light to account for insurgents hiding in the houses that first came under attack" Read. Unarmed civilians (and not even teenager children) + no weapons found + no insurgents hiding in the houses = blind, indiscriminate slaughter. That's what you read out of it. | ||
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Pika Chu
Romania2510 Posts
On January 24 2012 19:53 zalz wrote: There is free press in Iraq and freedom of speech. Neither existed under Saddam. The people of Iraq want the US to get out? They can say that just as easily. Their last democratic elections were widely considered a succes. Doesn't matter what side of the argument you fall on. You can't deny Iraqi's are more free now then under Saddam. I am sure that East-Germany was stable under the Stasi aswell. Doesn't mean it was a good system. People staying in Iraq was somewhat influenced by the fact that your entire family would get thrown in jail if your moving was considered political in any way. They might have wanted to run for a long time but simply couldn't under Saddam. People aren't staying in North-Korea because it's paradise on earth, sometimes you simply can't leave due to the government. But the USA can't stop the bombings. Only the Iraqi people can stop those bombings. I think it was worth it. Had the USA not done what it did then Saddam would still be in power today. Still running his criminal totalitarian regime. Killing off half the party, forcing family members to cheer for the murder of their own. It's not always about practical things. Some times you just have to say that you cannot tolerate a regime that is so morally bankrupt. He even had a man chopped up and send the body parts to his wife. Iraq's future is a good one at the moment. If Saddam was still alive or one of his sons had taken over? The place would still be a hellhole. A decent post is a decent post. Postcount doesn't say much. I'm going to puke. Imagine a war in netherlands, imagine it under occupation, imagine the thousands of dead, the ruined cities, the millions of broken dreams. Do you actually understand that WAR IS NOT A VIDEO GAME? WAR KILLS PEOPLE! Have you ever spoken with one of your elders who's been in war? You're one of the most superficial posters on tl.net and i've seen that over time. You're always up in balls about free speech no matter the costs. Would you live in poverty and misery being happy you're free to say whatever you want? Maybe you're really passionate about it but i doubt it. I doubt you'd rather live your life in a weel chair (because of a bomb) and be able to speak freely than live healthy in a totalitarian regime. Saddam's criminal regime wouldn't have managed to destroy as many lives (and by destroyed live i also think of parents who lose children, losing your loved one, losing your parent, brother, friends) as this war did not in a hundred years. The people of Iraqi did not revolt against Sadddam, there was no revolution, there was a war that was uncalled from the iraqi people. Were iraqis content of getting rid of saddam? Yes, they would've wanted to see him gone probably! But would they wanted to pay this price? No, definitely not at this costs! And you're making a paralel about east germany? When was east germany attacked? Do you even know the history of it's "revolution" right? They used protests to get rid of their rulers, not bombs. They yelled "Gorbi, help us" when Gorbaciov had a meeting with east germany ruler (i forgot his name). They went out on the streets and said what they want! How can you make a paralel between the two? If one of saddam's sons took over it would be hellhole right? What the hell is it now? A paradise? Being afraid of being blown up on the streets? Would you live there? Edit: sorry for the off topic but i just had to... | ||
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GatorGar
Somalia77 Posts
Let me clue you all you weirdos in; dead Iraqi's with bullet holes in them was commonplace in all of Iraq in '05. It could very well have been a local Al-Qaeda cell who shot them up for refusing to be suicide bombers. Who knows. Dead civilian Iraqi's does not mean that the nearest US forces shot them up. | ||
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SolidMotion
Canada55 Posts
I'm sorry, but if I saw someone who was with me during training get blown up in pieces by a bomb when I'm super tired and exhausted as well as paranoid given the circumstance, I might, and you as well, act like that. **Edit: O.o | ||
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CurLy[]
United States759 Posts
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Hypertension
United States802 Posts
Most Americans do know that atrocities were committed in Iraq in general, and we do feel bad about it. Those that opposed the war are sad, those of us that approved of the war see it as an acceptable by-blow of "freeing" the Iraqi people from a horrible dictator. Personally, I don't like the war and am glad that we are getting out. But bad things happen in war, and I don't see how putting this sergeant in prison for the rest of his life would make the world feel any better about us. If he wasn't supposed to kill those people he shouldn't have been sent to that location. It will take a long time to rebuild our reputation in the world, maybe staying out of a foreign war for a decade or two will help. | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On January 24 2012 22:18 SolidMotion wrote: If those who say those soldiers should have gotten much worst have never done any form of REAL military training then I am sorry but you are not qualified to debate on this matter. War is not a game, you never know when you could be ambushed when your not in safe zones. I only did the training for the Canadian reserve and when we did the simulator near the end of training it was fucking crazy. You're so tired it's hard to make good decisions since you have only slept 4 hours during the past 48 hours, the sound of artillery (even though they're fake) is crazy, you really feel where the impact comes from. I'm sorry, but if I saw someone who was with me during training get blown up in pieces by a bomb when I'm super tired and exhausted as well as paranoid given the circumstance, I might, and you as well, act like that. **Edit: O.o First, you should not be allowed in the military if you cannot do the job. Modern military should be required to be able to do more than kill everyone in sight. Second, nothing of what you say is in any way any excuse of what he did, it might be used to lower the sentence slightly, but that is it. | ||
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Caryc
Germany330 Posts
guess you cant really prove every war crime in a different country. i hope they at least tried. | ||
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Hypertension
United States802 Posts
On January 24 2012 22:31 mcc wrote: First, you should not be allowed in the military if you cannot do the job. Modern military should be required to be able to do more than kill everyone in sight. Second, nothing of what you say is in any way any excuse of what he did, it might be used to lower the sentence slightly, but that is it. The thing is the military doesn't have a great choice of who can be allowed in. Especially in 2005 with no end to the Iraq war in sight, recruitment was having a hugely hard time keeping up with demand. Soldiers who had served their tours were being asked to continue long past the time when they thought they would be freed from their obligations. National Guard troops were being sent to active combat zones. At that time you either had to be incredibly patriotic or down on your luck to be considering the military, and the military basically took who it could get. We were even considering formalizing the acceptance of illegal immigrants and felons into the army at that time. On January 24 2012 22:26 CurLy[] wrote: i hate my country Don't, there are a lot of great people still in the US and a lot to be proud of. | ||
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bdair2002
Israel51 Posts
This is disgusting, the war against Iraq and Afghanistan is done for money only, AFAIK G. W bush has a lot of stocks in oil companies and made miliions of dollars from this war "http://www.rense.com/general14/bushsformer.htm" , this is the freedom and democracy you are bringing? well keep it for yourself, we are way better without it. | ||
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