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motbob
United States12546 Posts
There's a bill in Congress that has been causing a lot of consternation lately. It's called the "National Defense Authorization Act." This bill is the latest iteration of a massive bill that is passed every year that deals with the military. In essence it funds and mandates certain activities by the military.
This year, a controversial provision has made its way into the bill.
SEC. 1031. AFFIRMATION OF AUTHORITY OF THE ARMED FORCES OF THE UNITED STATES TO DETAIN COVERED PERSONS PURSUANT TO THE AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF MILITARY FORCE
(a) In General- Congress affirms that the authority of the President to use all necessary and appropriate force pursuant to the Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107-40) includes the authority for the Armed Forces of the United States to detain covered persons (as defined in subsection (b)) pending disposition under the law of war.
(b) Covered Persons- A covered person under this section is any person as follows:
(1) A person who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored those responsible for those attacks.
(2) A person who was a part of or substantially supported al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners, including any person who has committed a belligerent act or has directly supported such hostilities in aid of such enemy forces.
(c) Disposition Under Law of War- The disposition of a person under the law of war as described in subsection (a) may include the following:
(1) Detention under the law of war without trial until the end of the hostilities authorized by the Authorization for Use of Military Force.
(2) Trial under chapter 47A of title 10, United States Code (as amended by the Military Commissions Act of 2009 (title XVIII of Public Law 111-84)).
(3) Transfer for trial by an alternative court or competent tribunal having lawful jurisdiction.
(4) Transfer to the custody or control of the person's country of origin, any other foreign country, or any other foreign entity.
(d) Construction- Nothing in this section is intended to limit or expand the authority of the President or the scope of the Authorization for Use of Military Force.
(e) Requirement for Briefings of Congress- The Secretary of Defense shall regularly brief Congress regarding the application of the authority described in this section, including the organizations, entities, and individuals considered to be `covered persons' for purposes of subsection (b)(2).
Opponents of this bill have claimed that this bill will allow the U.S. Executive Branch to detain citizens indefinitely. Will it? Let's take a look.
Sec 1031 (a) states that the Armed Forces can detain certain persons. These covered persons are either persons who planned or executed 9/11 or harbored those who did, or persons who have been a part of Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or "associated forces" or a person who has assisted such groups.
Subsection c) lists the ways that such persons can be detained. This is pretty much what the military has been doing to "unlawful combatants" over the past 10 years.
Subsection e) states the the Secretary of Defense must report to Congress whenever the definition of "covered persons" under subsection b) is expanded to include more groups or individuals than had previously been listed in subsection b. In other words, if the military suddenly decides that Occupy Wall Street has been associating with Al-Qaeda, they've got to explain why they think that is to Congress.
There are two reasons why the government's power to detain U.S. citizens under this act are extremely limited.
The first is the definition of who exactly the government can detain. This definition is almost identical to the one used for the past ten years by the U.S. Armed Forces to define "enemy combatants."
The definition in the Act is the following:
A person who was a part of or substantially supported al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners, including any person who has committed a belligerent act or has directly supported such hostilities in aid of such enemy forces. While the definition of an enemy combatant is the following:
‘Enemy combatant’ shall mean an individual who was part of or supporting Taliban or al Qaeda forces, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners. This includes any person who has committed belligerent act or has directly supported hostilities in aid of enemy combat forces. They look pretty much identical, don't they?
The U.S. military has been detaining persons under the "Enemy Combatant" rule for the last ten years, so this law is basically business as usual.
But what about the possibility of the U.S. Army detaining a U.S. Citizen? Doesn't that violate due process?
The Supreme Court agrees with you 100%! In Hamdi v. Rumsfeld, the Court ruled that the Executive Branch of the United States doesn't have the right to hold U.S. Citizens indefinitely without following due process. This court ruling led directly to the release of a U.S. Citizen who was being labeled an enemy combatant.
So, essentially, the bill doesn't need a provision excluding U.S. citizens from the bill's scope. The Supreme Court's ruling has already excluded them.
I know this is tl;dr, and the only reason I'm posting it is so that whenever someone posts a dumb over-simplified thread saying that the U.S. Army now has the right to imprison the entirety of OWS I can just close it and link to this thread instead.
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One step closer to being a police state.
edit: Look at my alias, I just had to. 
User was warned for this post
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America is really tightening up. If the Al Qeada and Anti-America organized terrorism is indeed true, this is its real victory - confusion, anarchy, and paranoia.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
I don't know why I even bother.
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On November 30 2011 22:34 Disregard wrote: One step closer to being a police state.
Way to miss the point of the OP entirely.
@OP - Interesting post. The exact specifications for what constitutes an "enemy combatant" have always been quite vague - it's interesting to see an analysis of the latest Defense Act that touches on that subject.
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On November 30 2011 22:34 Disregard wrote: One step closer to being a police state. Being in China, you know what you're talking about 
On subject, good review of the situation, thanks OP. It may be business as usual but it's still baaad to be able to detain people Guantanamo style.
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United States5162 Posts
On November 30 2011 22:34 Disregard wrote: One step closer to being a police state. LOL. The whole point of the thread was to try and prevent knee-jerk reactions such as this.
Personally, I don't like our government being able to hold any person indefinitely without trial, US citizen or not. However, this is just an continuation of the enemy combatant policy we've had for 10 years now.
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On November 30 2011 22:37 motbob wrote: I don't know why I even bother.
Thanks for clarifying Motbob.
Please continue to bother.
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On November 30 2011 22:34 Disregard wrote: One step closer to being a police state.
umm... too late? Edit: never mind, i realised what the OP meant
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This thread needs to stand for all time as to why tl;dr is an axiom of the internet.
Thanks motbob.
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GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
So what I understand is that they have to prove that the people they detained have proof of such association, or can they just detain without probable cause?
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I think the biggest problem with this is that, at face value, it is a power that could readily be abused.
However, it is worth mentioning that under Posse Comitatus, the military has had the ability to act as a police force with congressional approval for quite sometime.
I did not know about that particular supreme court ruling, so I'd like to thank you for bringing it up. Ignore the idiots shouting fascism and police state without even bothering to get all the facts.
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On November 30 2011 22:55 amazingxkcd wrote: So what I understand is that they have to prove that the people they detained have proof of such association, or can they just detain without probable cause?
Once they have any information regarding your association, they can detain you at their will.
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so basically its business as usual and the OWS people are going to try and make some big deal about this bill being another way government is trying to control our lives?
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I appreciate the effort of doing a proper op. The other thread didn't really make an effort.
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The media likes to sensationalize this kind of stuff, like when they were trying to raise the debt ceiling for the US, claiming the president could just use the 14th amendment section dealing with public debts to raise it himself, when that wasn't true at all. I respect people's concern for our freedoms but it doesn't help to make things up or call the US a police state, when it's actually far, far better than many places around the world.
Regardless thanks for bringing this up.
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1019 Posts
nice write-up OP. People crying big brother over this is the same as all those hippies complaining about america killing the terrorist al-alwaki because he was an american citizen. get fucking real. american or not if your trying to kill american people you deserve to die
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On November 30 2011 23:19 white_horse wrote: nice write-up OP. People crying big brother over this is the same as all those hippies complaining about america killing the terrorist al-alwaki because he was an american citizen. get fucking real. american or not if your trying to kill american people you deserve to die
So basically we should get rid of the criminal justice system in favor of death squads who hunt down murderers and terrorist sympathizers? Interesting theory.
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I reaaaaally like this thread, so I hope it doesn't degenerate off topic.
*coughthetwopostsabove*
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On November 30 2011 23:19 white_horse wrote: nice write-up OP. People crying big brother over this is the same as all those hippies complaining about america killing the terrorist al-alwaki because he was an american citizen. get fucking real. american or not if your trying to kill american people you deserve to die
Oh America, America! How perfect your people is...
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Great post motbot. I was looking for a better analysis of the provision after hearing Rand Paul and Udall give their addresses. It seems to me like ever if the Supreme Court hadn't dealt with a similar issue, this would without a doubt make it's way to the court at some point (and invariably be ruled unconstitutional). What is frightening to me the rhetoric coming from McCain and Graham when directly asked if American citizens should be detained without trial if deemed to be an enemy of the state.
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Nicely written (much better than mine) :D Thanks for creating a new thread so we can discuss it further.
I'm not hip on legal jargon, but from what I understand this is left wide open to what could have some terrible effects. You asked whether this would allow citizens to be held indefinitely, and it appears to me that c1 would say yes, unless you believe that the war on terror is not a perpetual one and will end anytime soon.
Section b2 is one of contention by many, from what I've seen. Many things need to be defined or quantified there... what is "substantially supported", for example? It is also here where "dumb" posters like myself get worried that this could be expanded to start covering street protests since they can potentially be seen as "hostile" in nature. Is "belligerent act" defined somewhere?
Precedents have been overturned by the Supreme Court before, and very recently in fact (Citizens United).
Also: has anyone had a chance to see the provison that repeals the executive order that bans torture?
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But Motbob, when Gingrich becomes president he'll put that court in its place!
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Why should it be allowable to detain anyone indefinitely?
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Let me just say.
Try to keep it civil guys, I feel like we're close to a flamefest. And this is only page 2!
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On November 30 2011 23:24 Hypertension wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 23:19 white_horse wrote: nice write-up OP. People crying big brother over this is the same as all those hippies complaining about america killing the terrorist al-alwaki because he was an american citizen. get fucking real. american or not if your trying to kill american people you deserve to die So basically we should get rid of the criminal justice system in favor of death squads who hunt down murderers and terrorist sympathizers? Interesting theory.
You can't join a group the United States is at war with and think you can run around immune from attack because you were\are an American citizen 
It wouldn't work if you had joined the Viet Cong or the Wehrmacht, and it won't work with Al-Qaeda.
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Sick post motbob. I feel like it serves the double purpose of being informational in the, ah... contentious arena that is TL General, as well as being hilarious bait for people who post before reading the OP.
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just because its supporting something that has already been around for 10 yrs doesn't mean the original was right.
" This includes any person who has committed belligerent act or has directly supported hostilities in aid of enemy combat forces. "
what I'd like to know is how they define "a belligerent act" and "hostilities to america" "aid of enemy combat forces." Like if i swear in public and damn america, thats a belligerent act and hostile to the country. And obviously driving a plane into a building in the name of some god will be "aid of enemy combat forces." But where along that line do you cross into this category? how do they measure/quantify it?
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On December 01 2011 10:30 Romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 23:24 Hypertension wrote:On November 30 2011 23:19 white_horse wrote: nice write-up OP. People crying big brother over this is the same as all those hippies complaining about america killing the terrorist al-alwaki because he was an american citizen. get fucking real. american or not if your trying to kill american people you deserve to die So basically we should get rid of the criminal justice system in favor of death squads who hunt down murderers and terrorist sympathizers? Interesting theory. You can't join a group the United States is at war with and think you can run around immune from attack because you were\are an American citizen  It wouldn't work if you had joined the Viet Cong or the Wehrmacht, and it won't work with Al-Qaeda.
On the other hand, do we want internment camps like we did in WW2 for Japanese Americans, or McCarthyism again?
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On December 01 2011 10:26 travis wrote: Why should it be allowable to detain anyone indefinitely?
So they don't get on a plane with a shoe bomb and blow everyone up.
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On December 01 2011 11:00 ElMeanYo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 10:26 travis wrote: Why should it be allowable to detain anyone indefinitely? So they don't get on a plane with a shoe bomb and blow everyone up.
So you agree with indefinite detainment on basis of pure suspicion.....?
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On December 01 2011 11:00 ElMeanYo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 10:26 travis wrote: Why should it be allowable to detain anyone indefinitely? So they don't get on a plane with a shoe bomb and blow everyone up.
But then theres the case of "Mister ____ was interrogated and held in a cell for 6 months unable to see his family because the CIA made a mistake."
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Does the bill allow indefinite detention for people who have proven to be "terrorists", or people the US Government claims are "terrorists"?
If the former, why not simply change the bill to "terrorist=life without parole after conviction" instead of "indefinite detention"? If the latter...we have issues. Very large issues.
From news articles, it appears Obama's threatened to veto it. Not sure on his reasoning, though.
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who decides they're terrorist or were aiding in 9/11, what court?
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On December 01 2011 11:08 acker wrote: Does the bill allow indefinite detention for people who have proven to be "terrorists", or people the US Government claims are "terrorists"?
If the former, why not simply change the bill to "terrorist=life without parole after conviction" instead of "indefinite detention"? If the latter...we have issues. Very large issues.
From news articles, it appears Obama's threatened to veto it. Not sure on his reasoning, though.
This is what I'd like to know as well. Legal experts are claiming the latter, and I'd like to find the wording they're getting this from.
The threat to veto will come with a price (if he actually exercises it). A veto on a military budget bill won't be very popular in this country and conservatives will surely play off of it. I'm sure of his reasoning either to be honest... after all, the administration has been spying on peace activist groups. Not that I'm complaining if he does veto it.
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Doesn't seem to be anything wrong with this bill. Why not?
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On December 01 2011 11:29 screamingpalm wrote:
This is what I'd like to know as well. Legal experts are claiming the latter, and I'd like to find the wording they're getting this from.
The threat to veto will come with a price (if he actually exercises it). A veto on a military budget bill won't be very popular in this country and conservatives will surely play off of it. I'm sure of his reasoning either to be honest... after all, the administration has been spying on peace activist groups. Not that I'm complaining if he does veto it.
The budget for the military is tied to the appropriations bill (not this one), according to the NYT.
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On December 01 2011 12:09 acker wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 11:29 screamingpalm wrote:
This is what I'd like to know as well. Legal experts are claiming the latter, and I'd like to find the wording they're getting this from.
The threat to veto will come with a price (if he actually exercises it). A veto on a military budget bill won't be very popular in this country and conservatives will surely play off of it. I'm sure of his reasoning either to be honest... after all, the administration has been spying on peace activist groups. Not that I'm complaining if he does veto it. The budget for the military is tied to the appropriations bill (not this one), according to the NYT.
Isn't the appropriations bill to determine the overall amount and this one breaks it down into how it is spent? Or do I have that wrong?
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I really don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was true. After all, someone's got to pay for the new provisions listed in the bill. However, I don't think it would take Congress all that long to pass an amended version of the bill.
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Thanks for posting this.
I immediately have a couple thoughts. Please correct me if I have misunderstood something.
With respect to section (b) pertaining to covered persons, are these people who are suspected as said persons or that have been proven as said persons. If it's the latter, then there's really no need for this to be instituted, since it went before a court, and this could already be punished (harshly unless I'm mistaken). If it's the former, then I do have a problem with it, particularly in conjunction with article (c) section (1) (indefinite detention without trial).
The problem I have is that these two tenets in conjunction appear to allow the US government to detain innocent suspects (innocent until proven guilty) indefinitely without a trial. This sounds kinda contrary to what our system of justice is all about.
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Motmob 2012.
Solving our problems before they exist.
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Thanks for the explanation, Motbob! Now I won't have to sh*t the bed when FOX covers this sometime tomorrow on "Freedom Watch" or whatever they call it.
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Yeah, detaining people without charge is pretty undemocratic... Hopefully that BS bill doesn't go through, it's insane.
On November 30 2011 23:19 white_horse wrote: nice write-up OP. People crying big brother over this is the same as all those hippies complaining about america killing the terrorist al-alwaki because he was an american citizen. get fucking real. american or not if your trying to kill american people you deserve to die I love the paradox :D
Anyway, not sure why wanting to kill american people makes you more deserving of death than wanting to kill afghans. There's motive on both sides as there's bad people on both sides.
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On December 01 2011 10:30 Romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 23:24 Hypertension wrote:On November 30 2011 23:19 white_horse wrote: nice write-up OP. People crying big brother over this is the same as all those hippies complaining about america killing the terrorist al-alwaki because he was an american citizen. get fucking real. american or not if your trying to kill american people you deserve to die So basically we should get rid of the criminal justice system in favor of death squads who hunt down murderers and terrorist sympathizers? Interesting theory. You can't join a group the United States is at war with and think you can run around immune from attack because you were\are an American citizen  It wouldn't work if you had joined the Viet Cong or the Wehrmacht, and it won't work with Al-Qaeda.
So suspicion of being associated with a terrorist group is enough to warrant being shot? Regardless of citizenship everyone deserves a trial. Its because of people with attitudes like yours that america really is half-way to becoming a police state.
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Hopefully Obama will veto this BS. That's our only chance.
Can't believe 44 of our Republicans voted FOR this violation of the U.S. Constitution.
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so wait. This bill specifically prevents any1 imprisoned on suspicion of terrorism from due process. And your answer to this is what ? The Supreme Court ? sin't that part of the due process ? yes it is.
If you are denied a trial, what any court says is irrelevant. Isn't that the all f'in point?
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lol silly motbob... Trying to be "reasonable" and provide actual "facts" in your arguments. This is the internet, we want rabble rabble rabble!
But seriously though, great OP and well written. It's a shame that the people who need to read it most will skim it and jump to the same conclusions they already held.
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I think this site should be added to the OP: www.lawfareblog.com/2011/12/does-the-ndaa-authorize-detention-of-us-citizens/
I don't think it is as simple as the OP implies, because the definition of enemy combatant is so vague. I posted this on Facebook: Essentially, the entire definition rests on the idea of an "enemy of the United States", which means if you're downloading torrents, or you kill someone, or you rob a convenience store, or mug a New Yorker, you will be fine (as in subject to the normal proceedings in a court of law). But if you self-identify as a Juggalo or Anonymous or any type of gang, and those groups are deemed to be enemies of the United States, you can be held without trial basically indefinitely.
Regardless of that though, even if you assume the U.S. citizens are safe, why is okay that non U.S. citizens be held without trial? That sounds counter to justice in my mind. I don't like it.
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On December 04 2011 12:08 flowSthead wrote:I think this site should be added to the OP: www.lawfareblog.com/2011/12/does-the-ndaa-authorize-detention-of-us-citizens/I don't think it is as simple as the OP implies, because the definition of enemy combatant is so vague. I posted this on Facebook: Essentially, the entire definition rests on the idea of an "enemy of the United States", which means if you're downloading torrents, or you kill someone, or you rob a convenience store, or mug a New Yorker, you will be fine (as in subject to the normal proceedings in a court of law). But if you self-identify as a Juggalo or Anonymous or any type of gang, and those groups are deemed to be enemies of the United States, you can be held without trial basically indefinitely. Regardless of that though, even if you assume the U.S. citizens are safe, why is okay that non U.S. citizens be held without trial? That sounds counter to justice in my mind. I don't like it.
Would anyone really be opposed to the indefinite detainment of juggalos?
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On December 02 2011 22:29 DemigodcelpH wrote: Hopefully Obama will veto this BS. That's our only chance.
Can't believe 44 of our Republicans voted FOR this violation of the U.S. Constitution.
It's like no one actually reads the OP.
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On December 04 2011 12:26 InvalidID wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 12:08 flowSthead wrote:I think this site should be added to the OP: www.lawfareblog.com/2011/12/does-the-ndaa-authorize-detention-of-us-citizens/I don't think it is as simple as the OP implies, because the definition of enemy combatant is so vague. I posted this on Facebook: Essentially, the entire definition rests on the idea of an "enemy of the United States", which means if you're downloading torrents, or you kill someone, or you rob a convenience store, or mug a New Yorker, you will be fine (as in subject to the normal proceedings in a court of law). But if you self-identify as a Juggalo or Anonymous or any type of gang, and those groups are deemed to be enemies of the United States, you can be held without trial basically indefinitely. Regardless of that though, even if you assume the U.S. citizens are safe, why is okay that non U.S. citizens be held without trial? That sounds counter to justice in my mind. I don't like it. Would anyone really be opposed to the indefinite detainment of juggalos?
It's the principle of the matter. Juggalos are people too, very, very disturbed people.
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I really wonder if people understand what the 3 different branches of US Government are there for. The idea is that each branch executes their power to the fullest, and the other 2 will complete their tasks to make sure what is done is both in the interest of the people and legal in regards to the Constitution. In essence, it doesn't matter what is passed in Congress or what the President does, if it's against the Constitution, it will be struck down.
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On December 04 2011 12:44 aksfjh wrote: I really wonder if people understand what the 3 different branches of US Government are there for. The idea is that each branch executes their power to the fullest, and the other 2 will complete their tasks to make sure what is done is both in the interest of the people and legal in regards to the Constitution. In essence, it doesn't matter what is passed in Congress or what the President does, if it's against the Constitution, it will be struck down.
By that logic the American state is infallible.
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On December 04 2011 13:11 Dapper_Cad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 12:44 aksfjh wrote: I really wonder if people understand what the 3 different branches of US Government are there for. The idea is that each branch executes their power to the fullest, and the other 2 will complete their tasks to make sure what is done is both in the interest of the people and legal in regards to the Constitution. In essence, it doesn't matter what is passed in Congress or what the President does, if it's against the Constitution, it will be struck down. By that logic the American state is infallible.
That was the idea in the beginning, yes. Clearly it's not true, but theoretically, it is.
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On November 30 2011 23:31 Days wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 23:19 white_horse wrote: nice write-up OP. People crying big brother over this is the same as all those hippies complaining about america killing the terrorist al-alwaki because he was an american citizen. get fucking real. american or not if your trying to kill american people you deserve to die Oh America, America! How perfect your people is... Do you understand that you completely missed his point?
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Well, Robert Chesney doesn't seem to agree with you, motbob. I certainly hope you're correct, but I think Americans stand to lose a whole lot more from being too permissive over this kind of legislation than too suspicious. I there should be absolutely no ambiguity in legislation regarding such basic rights, regardless of judicial precedent.
And, of course, I don't think the US should be able to hold anyone indefinitely without trial in the first place. In the very best case scenario, this is a continuation of bad policy.
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i was waiting for somebody to post a thread about it, but it looks like motbob beat pretty much everybody to the punch...
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I find it cynical how Americans draw a distinction between US citizens and non-citizens.
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On December 04 2011 16:56 hypercube wrote: I find it cynical how Americans draw a distinction between US citizens and non-citizens.
I think that's a poorly thought out comment. You draw a distinction between US citizens and non-citizens, you can tell because you used the word "American". Perhaps you dislike that US citizens have rights in the US that non-citizens don't, that that's a fact of life in any state. You can disagree with it, but then you are disagreeing with the very notion of the nation state. We could argue about that, hell I might well agree that the very notion of statehood is an idea that is past it's sell by date... or not... but I think it's a discussion for a different thread.
http://www.democracynow.org/2011/11/29/battlefield_america_us_citizens_face_indefinite
This is an interesting, if biased, discussion about this provision. The aspect which they focus on is the argument that the provision "would effectively extend the definition of what’s considered the U.S. military’s battlefield to anywhere in the world, even the United States.". I think if you couple this broadening of the battlefield with the idea that the U.S. can declare war on groups or individuals rather than nation states and you have a conceptualization of "war" which has exceeded traditional bounds by so much that the very word is rendered meaningless.
You end up with an army that has given itself Carte Blanche, it can declare war on anyone, anywhere. You could be walking along the street in a U.S. city and a group of armed U.S. soldiers could grab someone walking by you on the street, put them in an army vehicle and drive them to a secure location for indefinite detention and torture (another provision buried in the bill rescinds the executive order banning torture) because they are suspected of associating with enemies of the state. This is not business as usual as suggested in the O.P. because while the U.S. military can currently do this (minus the torture) in Afghanistan, they can't do it on U.S. soil.
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On December 05 2011 02:04 Dapper_Cad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 16:56 hypercube wrote: I find it cynical how Americans draw a distinction between US citizens and non-citizens. I think that's a poorly thought out comment. You draw a distinction between US citizens and non-citizens, you can tell because you used the word "American". Perhaps you dislike that US citizens have rights in the US that non-citizens don't, that that's a fact of life in any state. You can disagree with it, but then you are disagreeing with the very notion of the nation state. We could argue about that, hell I might well agree that the very notion of statehood is an idea that is past it's sell by date... or not... but I think it's a discussion for a different thread.
I could have gone into details but the point is that while some rights naturally only apply to citizens (like access to diplomatic services abroad) others should apply to everyone. The right for due process shouldn't depend on citizenship and I believe and, at least in theory, it doesn't in EU countries. Although in practice it's much more likely that a non-citizen would be transfered to a country that doesn't respect human rights, so it's not absolute.
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(d) Construction- Nothing in this section is intended to limit or expand the authority of the President or the scope of the Authorization for Use of Military Force.
Uh doesn't this sorta mean that this entire section is pointless? I mean the entire point of the section seems to be to detail the authority of the president and Authorization for Use of Military Force?
Edit: as said before, much of the powers given in this section already exist.
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I disagree with the premise here. Just because they've already scrounged a bunch of these powers in from other ambiguous laws doesn't mean they should have ever had them to begin with. Saying that 'they already do it anyway' is nothing more then a strawman to the real issue of whether this law is something the US needs and whether their previous actions were lawful. I refuse to believe that military trials for us citizens was something that needed to be codified. We should be protecting the rights of US citizens, not encouraging the executive branch to trounce on them.
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On December 05 2011 13:38 patrick321 wrote: I disagree with the premise here. Just because they've already scrounged a bunch of these powers in from other ambiguous laws doesn't mean they should have ever had them to begin with. Saying that 'they already do it anyway' is nothing more then a strawman to the real issue of whether this law is something the US needs and whether their previous actions were lawful. I refuse to believe that military trials for us citizens was something that needed to be codified. We should be protecting the rights of US citizens, not encouraging the executive branch to trounce on them. We (the people) encourage the executive and legislative branches to do whatever they can to "fix" society. It is up to the courts to decide if the solution they came up with is constitutional.
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On December 04 2011 12:08 flowSthead wrote:I think this site should be added to the OP: www.lawfareblog.com/2011/12/does-the-ndaa-authorize-detention-of-us-citizens/I don't think it is as simple as the OP implies, because the definition of enemy combatant is so vague. I posted this on Facebook: Essentially, the entire definition rests on the idea of an "enemy of the United States", which means if you're downloading torrents, or you kill someone, or you rob a convenience store, or mug a New Yorker, you will be fine (as in subject to the normal proceedings in a court of law). But if you self-identify as a Juggalo or Anonymous or any type of gang, and those groups are deemed to be enemies of the United States, you can be held without trial basically indefinitely. Regardless of that though, even if you assume the U.S. citizens are safe, why is okay that non U.S. citizens be held without trial? That sounds counter to justice in my mind. I don't like it.
It has to do with the idea of being in a "state of war" ie you don't give enemy soldiers a trial, you shoot at them, unless they surrender, and then you hold them until the war is over.
Now you have a problem when 1. the "soldiers" do not have uniforms 2. the "war" is not against a state with territory and relatively clear leadership, but a group with no territory, and potentially unclear leadership.
While you could use purely criminal methods for this (because its not a "state"), it gets complicated when the criminal organization is operating across national borders, and when you don't have full cooperation with the local "state". (the local "state" may be militia if the official "state" is too weak)
This probably indicates that some revision is needed, in designing a system so the executive branch doesn't have the power to hold people indefinitely without some type of individual trial. (with allowances made for more time if the inital 'detention' was in foreign territory)
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On December 05 2011 12:29 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 02:04 Dapper_Cad wrote:On December 04 2011 16:56 hypercube wrote: I find it cynical how Americans draw a distinction between US citizens and non-citizens. I think that's a poorly thought out comment. You draw a distinction between US citizens and non-citizens, you can tell because you used the word "American". Perhaps you dislike that US citizens have rights in the US that non-citizens don't, that that's a fact of life in any state. You can disagree with it, but then you are disagreeing with the very notion of the nation state. We could argue about that, hell I might well agree that the very notion of statehood is an idea that is past it's sell by date... or not... but I think it's a discussion for a different thread. I could have gone into details but the point is that while some rights naturally only apply to citizens (like access to diplomatic services abroad) others should apply to everyone. The right for due process shouldn't depend on citizenship and I believe and, at least in theory, it doesn't in EU countries. Although in practice it's much more likely that a non-citizen would be transfered to a country that doesn't respect human rights, so it's not absolute. Absolutely this. I am completely disgusted that anyone would think otherwise.
There are obvious reasons for having differences in how you operate some rights - it's simply not feasible for country X to provide free health care for all seven billion people on the planet, or pensions, or disability allowance, or whatever else. However, the right to freedom? The right to life? The nationality of someone has absolutely nothing to do with whether a government should respect these. If there is not enough reason to justify denying these rights to someone of one nationality, there is not enough reason to justify denying them to someone of any nationality whatsoever. I honestly don't see how this can be argued.
I am truly amazed that some people actually seem to feel differently. It's honestly very sad.
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On December 08 2011 20:08 FuzzyJAM wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 12:29 hypercube wrote:On December 05 2011 02:04 Dapper_Cad wrote:On December 04 2011 16:56 hypercube wrote: I find it cynical how Americans draw a distinction between US citizens and non-citizens. I think that's a poorly thought out comment. You draw a distinction between US citizens and non-citizens, you can tell because you used the word "American". Perhaps you dislike that US citizens have rights in the US that non-citizens don't, that that's a fact of life in any state. You can disagree with it, but then you are disagreeing with the very notion of the nation state. We could argue about that, hell I might well agree that the very notion of statehood is an idea that is past it's sell by date... or not... but I think it's a discussion for a different thread. I could have gone into details but the point is that while some rights naturally only apply to citizens (like access to diplomatic services abroad) others should apply to everyone. The right for due process shouldn't depend on citizenship and I believe and, at least in theory, it doesn't in EU countries. Although in practice it's much more likely that a non-citizen would be transfered to a country that doesn't respect human rights, so it's not absolute. Absolutely this. I am completely disgusted that anyone would think otherwise. There are obvious reasons for having differences in how you operate some rights - it's simply not feasible for country X to provide free health care for all seven billion people on the planet, or pensions, or disability allowance, or whatever else. However, the right to freedom? The right to life? The nationality of someone has absolutely nothing to do with whether a government should respect these. If there is not enough reason to justify denying these rights to someone of one nationality, there is not enough reason to justify denying them to someone of any nationality whatsoever. I honestly don't see how this can be argued. I am truly amazed that some people actually seem to feel differently. It's honestly very sad.
Agreed, of course. Keep in mind though that Obama was supposed to close Gitmo and end extradition- all with popular support. I don't see Americans as being hypocritical on the issue in general, although the right wing stance may well be.
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On December 06 2011 07:03 Krikkitone wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 12:08 flowSthead wrote:I think this site should be added to the OP: www.lawfareblog.com/2011/12/does-the-ndaa-authorize-detention-of-us-citizens/I don't think it is as simple as the OP implies, because the definition of enemy combatant is so vague. I posted this on Facebook: Essentially, the entire definition rests on the idea of an "enemy of the United States", which means if you're downloading torrents, or you kill someone, or you rob a convenience store, or mug a New Yorker, you will be fine (as in subject to the normal proceedings in a court of law). But if you self-identify as a Juggalo or Anonymous or any type of gang, and those groups are deemed to be enemies of the United States, you can be held without trial basically indefinitely. Regardless of that though, even if you assume the U.S. citizens are safe, why is okay that non U.S. citizens be held without trial? That sounds counter to justice in my mind. I don't like it. It has to do with the idea of being in a "state of war" ie you don't give enemy soldiers a trial, you shoot at them, unless they surrender, and then you hold them until the war is over. Now you have a problem when 1. the "soldiers" do not have uniforms 2. the "war" is not against a state with territory and relatively clear leadership, but a group with no territory, and potentially unclear leadership. While you could use purely criminal methods for this (because its not a "state"), it gets complicated when the criminal organization is operating across national borders, and when you don't have full cooperation with the local "state". (the local "state" may be militia if the official "state" is too weak) This probably indicates that some revision is needed, in designing a system so the executive branch doesn't have the power to hold people indefinitely without some type of individual trial. (with allowances made for more time if the inital 'detention' was in foreign territory)
Oh I understand why it is done. When I asked why it is okay, it was more a rhetorical question about why people would think it is just to be able to do it. I agree with everything you've written in so far as a reason for the way it is, I just don't see it as a valid justification for the language of the law.
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What I hate about law: it's really complicated I really have to thank the TLers here, I would not have understood what this meant otherwise. When you have cases in which people have been detained over long periods of time without evidence, I really don't know how you argue that this is good. I understand that the war on terror is important, but this is taking it a bit too far.
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Basically, Miranda Rights, Bill of Rights, and any other laws that protect you from unjust abuse of governmental power - all gone. What the fuck are you people smoking to encourage and support this? First the E-PARASITE Act and now this. WHAT IS OUR GOVERNMENT DOING? Not working to FIX stuff but fuck up our system even more. Only 7 of our "representatives" vetoed this bill that would basically infringe all of our given rights in the Constitution. SEVEN. Jesus Christ, Congress, how far have you fallen.
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This is absolutely crazy It is like McCarthyism, but with terrorism instead of communism The government can detain anyone for an indefinite period of time without trial or anything - if government even suspects them of terrorist type activity.
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Complete and utter BS. Slippery slopes are slippery, especially when you have profits at stake.. Presidents declaring war without congress approval, private organizations in control of our money supply.. Where have the checks and balances gone? (to the highest bidder)
http://newsstream.blogs.cnn.com/2011/12/06/occupy-london-terror-threat/
Any responsible person would oppose this bill..
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nonono this is good! since pretty much everyone released from places like guantanamo bay end up going back to their terrorist roots...this is why its being made i think
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On November 30 2011 22:29 motbob wrote:
The U.S. military has been detaining persons under the "Enemy Combatant" rule for the last ten years, so this law is basically business as usual.
But what about the possibility of the U.S. Army detaining a U.S. Citizen? Doesn't that violate due process?
The Supreme Court agrees with you 100%! In Hamdi v. Rumsfeld, the Court ruled that the Executive Branch of the United States doesn't have the right to hold U.S. Citizens indefinitely without following due process. This court ruling led directly to the release of a U.S. Citizen who was being labeled an enemy combatant.
So, essentially, the bill doesn't need a provision excluding U.S. citizens from the bill's scope. The Supreme Court's ruling has already excluded them.
I know this is tl;dr, and the only reason I'm posting it is so that whenever someone posts a dumb over-simplified thread saying that the U.S. Army now has the right to imprison the entirety of OWS I can just close it and link to this thread instead.
So, if this is business as usual, why is this bill even necessary? Also, why has Obama threatened to veto the bill, and why have top military brass gone on the public record as saying that they don't want this power?
It's a slippery slope, and the architects of the bill know that it's a slippery slope, hence the bill, and the critics of the bill know that its a slippery slope, hence the criticism. This is definitely more nefarious than the OP makes it out to be because its an incremental erosion. It is definitely less clear-cut than the OP makes it out to be, hence the pages of discussion.
You might think people are being paranoid and dumb in saying that this allows the US military to imprison OWS without trial, and in a way you are right, it is a fairly large leap and this bill does not authorize that. But this bill does bring that possibility closer, and its not difficult to envision the intermediary steps from this point on that need to be taken to do so.
Besides, in policy briefings protest and civil unrest are already classified as low level terrorism, the dots are not as far apart as one would think. The fear isn't of people in OWS being rounded up in January, the concern is 5 or 10 years down the road. Nazi Germany didn't happen over a weekend.
@couple posts above poster, yes, McCarthyism except with terrorism rather than communism.
@travis below re: secret meetings. OH that's just business as usual, nothing controversial there... bills which fundamentally counteract the constitution itself are simply not worthy of being discussed-- waste of time really, should be held behind closed doors so we can focus on things like the economy and prevent needless distractions. That's all.
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On December 09 2011 08:26 urSa wrote: nonono this is good! since pretty much everyone released from places like guantanamo bay end up going back to their terrorist roots...this is why its being made i think
LOL. We don't release people from guantanamo bay, we don't even give them a trail.. Not a single one. Your logic is flawed, try again..
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*too slow*
*edit 2* I better not say it after all.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
I wonder if discussion of any bill related to national security has ever not not been open to the public.
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editing... will fix later, gotta go now.
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One step closer.
Step by step. "Enemy is at the gates, gather around, I will protect you." One step closer. "It's all for the greater good". One step closer. "They are the enemy!". One step closer. And one day you wake up and ask yourself: "How did we get here?".
You walked there, silly. All by yourselves.
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Where can I find the full text of the current iteration of the bill?
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Lol this actually does the opposite of improving security.
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As upsetting as this may be, it is not as bad as many people make it out to be.
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(Washington, DC) – US President Barack Obama’s apparent decision to not veto a defense spending bill that codifies indefinite detention without trial into US law and expands the military’s role in holding terrorism suspects does enormous damage to the rule of law both in the US and abroad, Human Rights Watch said today. The Obama administration had threatened to veto the bill, the 2012 National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA), over detainee provisions, but on December 14, 2011, issued a statement indicating the president would likely sign the legislation.
“By signing this defense spending bill, President Obama will go down in history as the president who enshrined indefinite detention without trial in US law,” said Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch. “In the past, Obama has lauded the importance of being on the right side of history, but today he is definitely on the wrong side.”
The far-reaching detainee provisions would codify indefinite detention without trial into US law for the first time since the McCarthy era when Congress in 1950 overrode the veto of then-President Harry Truman and passed the Internal Security Act. The bill would also bar the transfer of detainees currently held at Guantanamo into the US for any reason, including for trial. In addition, it would extend restrictions, imposed last year, on the transfer of detainees from Guantanamo to home or third countries – even those cleared for release by the administration.
There are currently 171 detainees at Guantanamo, many of whom have been imprisoned for nearly 10 years. As one of his first acts in office, Obama signed an executive order for the closure of Guantanamo within one year. Instead of moving quickly to close the prison and end the use of the discredited military commissions, he supported modifications to the Military Commissions Act.
“It is a sad moment when a president who has prided himself on his knowledge of and belief in constitutional principles succumbs to the politics of the moment to sign a bill that poses so great a threat to basic constitutional rights,” Roth said.
The bill also requires the US military take custody of certain terrorism suspects even inside the United States, cases that previously have been handled by federal, state and local law enforcement authorities. During debate over the bill, several senior administration officials, including the secretary of defense, attorney general, director of national intelligence, director of the FBI, and director of the CIA, all raised objections that this provision interfered with the administration’s ability to effectively fight terrorism. In the last 10 years over 400 people have been prosecuted in US federal courts for terrorism related offenses. Meanwhile during that same period, only six cases have been prosecuted in the military commissions.
“President Obama cannot even justify this serious threat to basic rights on the basis of security,” Roth said. “The law replaces an effective system of civilian-court prosecutions with a system that has generated the kind of global outrage that would delight recruiters of terrorists.”
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On November 30 2011 23:19 white_horse wrote: nice write-up OP. People crying big brother over this is the same as all those hippies complaining about america killing the terrorist al-alwaki because he was an american citizen. get fucking real. american or not if your trying to kill american people you deserve to die
Are you fucking kidding me? I really hope this is a joke.
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Yeah I guess the SOPA is no big deal either right. Both in the same week. Nothing wrong here just keep shopping and play some sc2!
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one has to assume that the ACLU will be taking NDAA to court immediately, meaning that it won't be able to be used for quite some time, and if the supreme court isn't obscenely corrupt it would have to overturn the NDAA or water it down to the point that people wouldn't care
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On December 16 2011 01:15 Coramoor wrote: one has to assume that the ACLU will be taking NDAA to court immediately, meaning that it won't be able to be used for quite some time, and if the supreme court isn't obscenely corrupt it would have to overturn the NDAA or water it down to the point that people wouldn't care

User was warned for this post
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Actually, what pisses me off more than this bill is that people are only getting mad that it doesn't exempt US citizens. Being a US citizen has nothing to do with whether you deserve basic human rights like due process. Thinking "oh this was okay until they stopped exempting Americans!" is like... sooo damn selfish and xenophobic.
I really need to make sure that I resist the temptation to keep living in this country after I graduate college.
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Well, let's be honest here. The government doesn't need to pass a law to be able to do what this upcoming law says. They can already do it as they please, as they're above the law. The only problem is some people will and have whined when the govt. does something that isn't in the law books, which is a bit of an annoyance to those big dogs.
By making it a law, when people whine, good ole Sam just tells them to take look at the law books and it'll be there explaining why what he's doing is 'legal'. After that, they better keep quiet, or else Old Sammy's gonna take his belt off for a whipping.
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Thanks for this write up. It's hard to find unbiased information.
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On December 16 2011 14:12 Klamity wrote: Thanks for this write up. It's hard to find unbiased information.
Holy crap, dont you care even the slightest about your basic human rights? Any mediocre hacker could hack your facebook account and post some suspicious stuff, throw away some emails and the next day you could be imprisoned indefinitely. No trial. Just you staring down a gun barrel. Why would you do this to your self? I beg you to do some research and not blindly trust the OP because the NDAA is no small matter. Do some research and you will find that you are being stripped of your rights, not only as an american, but as a human being.
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On November 30 2011 23:19 white_horse wrote: nice write-up OP. People crying big brother over this is the same as all those hippies complaining about america killing the terrorist al-alwaki because he was an american citizen. get fucking real. american or not if your trying to kill american people you deserve to die Just think of the ways the gov't could abuse this power.
Good luck doing any kind of occupy protest
This bill will pass whether we want it too or not.
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On December 02 2011 22:29 DemigodcelpH wrote: Hopefully Obama will veto this BS. That's our only chance.
Can't believe 44 of our Republicans voted FOR this violation of the U.S. Constitution.
I mean technically if it's against the constitution it can't be used.
Also, if they don't vote for it, the adds at election time are gonna say "This republican wants TERRORISTS to EAT OUR BABIES AND/OR KILL AMERICAN CHILDREN AND TAKE YOUR JOBS"
Edit: Because they didn't vote for that bill, or act or whatever.
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On December 24 2011 09:51 Marcus420 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 23:19 white_horse wrote: nice write-up OP. People crying big brother over this is the same as all those hippies complaining about america killing the terrorist al-alwaki because he was an american citizen. get fucking real. american or not if your trying to kill american people you deserve to die Just think of the ways the gov't could abuse this power. Good luck doing any kind of occupy protest This bill will pass whether we want it too or not. Exactly. Which is another reason why I am embarrassed to say I'm a U.S. citizen. Honestly our Constitution isn't even worth the paper it's written on anymore...
Also with the NDAA being passed it gives the President the right to arrest, detain, and even assassinate anybody(yes even American citizens) who are considered a threat to national security.
I honestly think that once they are able to censor the net anybody who opposes what is going on in Washington will be handled accordingly.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On December 24 2011 10:07 IntoTheBush wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 09:51 Marcus420 wrote:On November 30 2011 23:19 white_horse wrote: nice write-up OP. People crying big brother over this is the same as all those hippies complaining about america killing the terrorist al-alwaki because he was an american citizen. get fucking real. american or not if your trying to kill american people you deserve to die Just think of the ways the gov't could abuse this power. Good luck doing any kind of occupy protest This bill will pass whether we want it too or not. Exactly. Which is another reason why I am embarrassed to say I'm a U.S. citizen. Honestly our Constitution isn't even worth the paper it's written on anymore... Also with the NDAA being passed it gives the President the right to arrest, detain, and even assassinate anybody(yes even American citizens) who are considered a threat to national security. I honestly think that once they are able to censor the net anybody who opposes what is going on in Washington will be handled accordingly. You didn't read the OP. The entire point of the OP is that the government does not have the right to indefinitely detain U.S. citizens no matter what laws Congress passes. You cannot extend constitutional authority by simply passing a law.
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GOP presidential candidate Ron Paul warned that the National Defense Authorization Act, which was passed by Congress this month, will accelerate the country’s “slip into tyranny” and virtually assures “our descent into totalitarianism.”
http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/gop-presidential-primary/201335-rep-paul-says-defense-bill-assures-descent-into-totalitarianism
A good quote from the article
“The Bill of Rights has no exceptions for really bad people or terrorists or even non-citizens. It is a key check on government power against any person. That is not a weakness in our legal system, it is the very strength of our legal system. The NDAA attempts to justify abridging the Bill of Rights on the theory that rights are suspended in a time of war, and the entire United States is a battlefield in the war on terror. This is a very dangerous development, indeed. Beware.”
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On December 24 2011 10:59 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2011 10:07 IntoTheBush wrote:On December 24 2011 09:51 Marcus420 wrote:On November 30 2011 23:19 white_horse wrote: nice write-up OP. People crying big brother over this is the same as all those hippies complaining about america killing the terrorist al-alwaki because he was an american citizen. get fucking real. american or not if your trying to kill american people you deserve to die Just think of the ways the gov't could abuse this power. Good luck doing any kind of occupy protest This bill will pass whether we want it too or not. Exactly. Which is another reason why I am embarrassed to say I'm a U.S. citizen. Honestly our Constitution isn't even worth the paper it's written on anymore... Also with the NDAA being passed it gives the President the right to arrest, detain, and even assassinate anybody(yes even American citizens) who are considered a threat to national security. I honestly think that once they are able to censor the net anybody who opposes what is going on in Washington will be handled accordingly. You didn't read the OP. The entire point of the OP is that the government does not have the right to indefinitely detain U.S. citizens no matter what laws Congress passes. You cannot extend constitutional authority by simply passing a law.
While this may be true, the amount of time it takes for anything to reach the supreme court and get rulled on once-and-for-all is ridiculously long. It would likely be at least 10 years. For example, the Defense of Marriage Act and whether sexual orientation is a suspect class has yet to be ruled on by the Supreme Court definitively.
With this in mind, the law is in essence, in effect for ten years and the people passing it can't be sued or held accountable.
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Obama's reservations towards the bill already forced alterations that should alleviate any fears.
"The new law now requires military custody for any suspect who is a member of al-Qaida or "associated forces" and involved in planning or attempting to carry out an attack on the United States or its coalition partners. The president or a designated subordinate may waive the military custody requirement by certifying to Congress that such a move is in the interest of national security.
The administration also pushed Congress to change a provision that would have denied U.S. citizens suspected of terrorism the right to trial and could have subjected them to indefinite detention. Lawmakers eventually dropped the military custody requirement for U.S. citizens or lawful U.S. residents."
http://www.npr.org/2011/12/31/144524058/obama-signs-defense-bill-with-reservations?ft=1&f=1001&sc=tw&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
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Llama, the statute in the bill referencing 'indefinite detainment' of US citizens is still in.
lol @ 4th amendment rights,
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1031, and as far as I know it is still in and passed with the bill. We'll have to see what implications it has, personally I prefer that they err on the side of caution with the jargon, but it's too late now.
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The language is purposefully vague to cover al-Awlaki type cases.
I don't see how it doesn't conflict with the Military Commissions Act of 2006, which stated that American citizens could not be denied the right to file a writ of habeas corpus, period.
Saying the president may decide that a citizen detained under the rules of this act can get a hearing is nice but the Constitution says that the president can't make that decision and that Congress only can if it votes to invoke martial law.
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On January 01 2012 11:21 screamingpalm wrote:1031, and as far as I know it is still in and passed with the bill. We'll have to see what implications it has, personally I prefer that they err on the side of caution with the jargon, but it's too late now.
The OP mistyped the section number:
Both wikipedia and the official source shows that the entry in question is Sec. 1021 http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h112-1540
People claim that it's still in, but can someone actually back up their statement with a citation? I've provided two direct sources that directly prove the opposite.
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On January 01 2012 11:39 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2012 11:21 screamingpalm wrote:On January 01 2012 11:07 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:On January 01 2012 09:53 Ympulse wrote: Llama, the statute in the bill referencing 'indefinite detainment' of US citizens is still in.
lol @ 4th amendment rights, Section 1021, the "infinite detainment" statute, is not in the final bill. http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c112:7:./temp/~c112zkMBxz:: 1031, and as far as I know it is still in and passed with the bill. We'll have to see what implications it has, personally I prefer that they err on the side of caution with the jargon, but it's too late now. The OP mistyped the section number: Both wikipedia and the official source shows that the entry in question is Sec. 1021 http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h112-1540People claim that it's still in, but can someone actually back up their statement with a citation? I've provided two direct sources that directly prove the opposite.
It does appear they renamed it from 1031 to 1021, my apologies. It still appears to have made the cut- the Udall amendment was defeated, and I haven't seen anything to suggest that the provision was taken out.
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On January 01 2012 12:03 screamingpalm wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2012 11:39 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:On January 01 2012 11:21 screamingpalm wrote:On January 01 2012 11:07 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:On January 01 2012 09:53 Ympulse wrote: Llama, the statute in the bill referencing 'indefinite detainment' of US citizens is still in.
lol @ 4th amendment rights, Section 1021, the "infinite detainment" statute, is not in the final bill. http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c112:7:./temp/~c112zkMBxz:: 1031, and as far as I know it is still in and passed with the bill. We'll have to see what implications it has, personally I prefer that they err on the side of caution with the jargon, but it's too late now. The OP mistyped the section number: Both wikipedia and the official source shows that the entry in question is Sec. 1021 http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h112-1540People claim that it's still in, but can someone actually back up their statement with a citation? I've provided two direct sources that directly prove the opposite. It does appear they renamed it from 1031 to 1021, my apologies. It still appears to have made the cut- the Udall amendment was defeated, and I haven't seen anything to suggest that the provision was taken out.
My mistake too, the section was not entirely omitted - Feinstein got a compromise amendment to assert that it doesn't "change" things, which remains ambiguous as to how things currently are in regards to indefinite detention of American citizens.
http://www.politico.com/blogs/joshgerstein/1211/Senate_votes_to_allow_indefinite_detention_of_Americans.html
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Welp, looks like my plans to move out of the country are becoming more and more reasonable by the day.
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So where are the OWS type protests for this bill? What the hell kind of free country could allow such a proposal to pass into law without resistance from the people.
Governements are nothing without people and it is your right to oppose your own government should you deem them unworthy
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( e) Authorities- Nothing in this section shall be construed to affect existing law or authorities relating to the detention of United States citizens, lawful resident aliens of the United States, or any other persons who are captured or arrested in the United States.
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The above is from Section 1021 of the bill. Simply put, it means nothing has changed regarding citizens rights. There have been precedents disallowing indefinite detention of United States citizens, and they still stand because of the above sub-paragraph.
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On January 02 2012 04:09 ryanAnger wrote: ( e) Authorities- Nothing in this section shall be construed to affect existing law or authorities relating to the detention of United States citizens, lawful resident aliens of the United States, or any other persons who are captured or arrested in the United States.
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The above is from Section 1021 of the bill. Simply put, it means nothing has changed regarding citizens rights. There have been precedents disallowing indefinite detention of United States citizens, and they still stand because of the above sub-paragraph.
I feel that this is misleading since our backyards are now considered a warzone. It will be like internment camps in WW2 for Japanese-Americans, only worse because this is a perpetual war.
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I believe this will further strenghten the Social stigmas against people of different races who live in the US(not trying to be offensive), because some people (and sadly, some of those who serve on police departments and have patrol duties) are extremely prejudicial when it comes to this kind of issue, and will probably look down on those who may look "suspicious" to them. I don't really see this spreading to other countries though because of the different mindset that other places have but, this is just my point of view, and may be mistaken.
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TL;DR The President’s opponents played the electorate like a fiddle and will get away with it because people don’t seem to realize they’ve been tricked into being angry at the wrong person.
He signed it because if he didn’t, defense spending including benefits to veterans and their families would not have been authorized. The sections of NDAA that many people here seem to have a problem with are sections that were added into the document by primarily Republican legislators and which the President adamantly opposes but was powerless to stop. I’ll repeat that: the parts of this bill that many people here hate were included against the President’s wishes and in a way that he is powerless to stop. The only way he could have stopped these sections from being included would have been to try to veto the bill in its entirety, a move that would have been both political suicide as well as being futile, as Congress would simply have overridden him. He is explicit in his opposition to exactly the parts of the bill everyone here hates, going so far as to detail exactly which sections he opposes and why.
You’ll notice that the bill also restricts his ability to close Guantanamo Bay; this isn’t coincidence. These sections are openly hostile to the President’s stated mandate - they are effectively a giant ‘fuck you’ to the President, as well as a nasty way of eroding the President’s support with his own base. Observe:
Draft legislation that is almost guaranteed to piss of the President but more importantly piss of his base. Attach said legislation to another piece of larger, more important legislation like, say, the Defense Spending budget for the entire year so that any attempt to dislodge the offensive legislation will result in a political shitstorm, as well as place the larger legislation in jeopardy. Once attached, begin a PR campaign that highlights the offending legislation and brings it to the attention of as many media outlets as possible - not just the traditional media, but alternative media outlets as well (Fox news, MSNBC, Media Matters, Huff-Po, Infowars, etc.) Here’s where it gets tricky: Simultaneously, speak to both your party’s base and the opposition’s. To your base, argue that the legislation is necessary to ‘Keep America safe’ and that the President, by opposing it, is clearly soft of terrorism and endangering the military by trying to strip the legislation out. At the same time, sit back and watch your opponent’s liberal supporters tear into the offending legislation as being dangerous, anti-democratic, and a threat to civil liberties. You know they will; that’s what they care about most. You’ve designed legislation that will make them froth at the mouth. You don’t even have to keep flogging the message; one look at the legislation will be enough to convince most people that it is anathema to everything they hold dear. Because it is. Pass the ‘parent’ legislation. Doing so forces the President to sign it or attempt to veto it. Since the legislation in question just so happens to be the military’s operating budget, a veto is out of the question. The President must sign the bill, you get the legislation you wanted, but you also practically guarantee that your opponent’s base will be furious at him for passing a bill they see as evil. Even if he tries to explain in detail why he had to sign it and what he hates about it, it won’t matter; ignorance of the American political process, coupled with an almost militant indifference to subtle explanations will almost ensure that most people will only remember that the President passed a bill they hate. Profit. you get the legislation you want, while the President has to contend with a furious base that feels he betrayed them - even though he agrees with their position but simply lacked the legislative tools to stop this from happening. It’s a classic piece of misdirection that needs only two things to work: A lack of principles (or a partisan ideology that is willing to say anything - do anything - to win), and an electorate that is easy to fool. This is pretty basic political maneuvering and the biggest problem is that it almost always works because most people either don’t know or don’t care how their political system actually functions. The President was saddled with a lose-lose situation where he either seriously harmed American defense policy (political suicide), or passed offensive legislation knowing that it would cost him political capital. To all of you here lamenting that you ever voted for this ‘corporate shill’, congratulations: you are the result the Republicans were hoping for. They get the law they want, they get the weakened Presidential candidate they want. And many of you just don’t seem to see that. You don’t have to like your country’s two-party system, but it pays to be able to understand it so that you can recognize when it’s being used like this.
EDIT: thanks to Reddit user Mauve_Cubedweller for this post
found on tumblr regarding the issue (which apparently came from reddit)
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Rest in peace land of the free... Your democracy is a farce and your president is a traitor. I'm not saying the united states is necessarily worse than anyplace else but i truly did believe the policies since 911 was only a temporary setback.
User was warned for this post edit: ok i clearly can't keep my fucking mouth shut^^ will stay away from threads about american politics... I'm only upset because i love you! It's not the first warning like this i get.
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On January 02 2012 04:09 ryanAnger wrote: ( e) Authorities- Nothing in this section shall be construed to affect existing law or authorities relating to the detention of United States citizens, lawful resident aliens of the United States, or any other persons who are captured or arrested in the United States.
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The above is from Section 1021 of the bill. Simply put, it means nothing has changed regarding citizens rights. There have been precedents disallowing indefinite detention of United States citizens, and they still stand because of the above sub-paragraph.
You do know that the WWII US concentration type camps are still ruled to be constitutional legal by the supreme court. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korematsu_v._United_States
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On January 02 2012 14:12 goldenkrnboi wrote:Show nested quote +TL;DR The President’s opponents played the electorate like a fiddle and will get away with it because people don’t seem to realize they’ve been tricked into being angry at the wrong person.
He signed it because if he didn’t, defense spending including benefits to veterans and their families would not have been authorized. The sections of NDAA that many people here seem to have a problem with are sections that were added into the document by primarily Republican legislators and which the President adamantly opposes but was powerless to stop. I’ll repeat that: the parts of this bill that many people here hate were included against the President’s wishes and in a way that he is powerless to stop. The only way he could have stopped these sections from being included would have been to try to veto the bill in its entirety, a move that would have been both political suicide as well as being futile, as Congress would simply have overridden him. He is explicit in his opposition to exactly the parts of the bill everyone here hates, going so far as to detail exactly which sections he opposes and why.
You’ll notice that the bill also restricts his ability to close Guantanamo Bay; this isn’t coincidence. These sections are openly hostile to the President’s stated mandate - they are effectively a giant ‘fuck you’ to the President, as well as a nasty way of eroding the President’s support with his own base. Observe:
Draft legislation that is almost guaranteed to piss of the President but more importantly piss of his base. Attach said legislation to another piece of larger, more important legislation like, say, the Defense Spending budget for the entire year so that any attempt to dislodge the offensive legislation will result in a political shitstorm, as well as place the larger legislation in jeopardy. Once attached, begin a PR campaign that highlights the offending legislation and brings it to the attention of as many media outlets as possible - not just the traditional media, but alternative media outlets as well (Fox news, MSNBC, Media Matters, Huff-Po, Infowars, etc.) Here’s where it gets tricky: Simultaneously, speak to both your party’s base and the opposition’s. To your base, argue that the legislation is necessary to ‘Keep America safe’ and that the President, by opposing it, is clearly soft of terrorism and endangering the military by trying to strip the legislation out. At the same time, sit back and watch your opponent’s liberal supporters tear into the offending legislation as being dangerous, anti-democratic, and a threat to civil liberties. You know they will; that’s what they care about most. You’ve designed legislation that will make them froth at the mouth. You don’t even have to keep flogging the message; one look at the legislation will be enough to convince most people that it is anathema to everything they hold dear. Because it is. Pass the ‘parent’ legislation. Doing so forces the President to sign it or attempt to veto it. Since the legislation in question just so happens to be the military’s operating budget, a veto is out of the question. The President must sign the bill, you get the legislation you wanted, but you also practically guarantee that your opponent’s base will be furious at him for passing a bill they see as evil. Even if he tries to explain in detail why he had to sign it and what he hates about it, it won’t matter; ignorance of the American political process, coupled with an almost militant indifference to subtle explanations will almost ensure that most people will only remember that the President passed a bill they hate. Profit. you get the legislation you want, while the President has to contend with a furious base that feels he betrayed them - even though he agrees with their position but simply lacked the legislative tools to stop this from happening. It’s a classic piece of misdirection that needs only two things to work: A lack of principles (or a partisan ideology that is willing to say anything - do anything - to win), and an electorate that is easy to fool. This is pretty basic political maneuvering and the biggest problem is that it almost always works because most people either don’t know or don’t care how their political system actually functions. The President was saddled with a lose-lose situation where he either seriously harmed American defense policy (political suicide), or passed offensive legislation knowing that it would cost him political capital. To all of you here lamenting that you ever voted for this ‘corporate shill’, congratulations: you are the result the Republicans were hoping for. They get the law they want, they get the weakened Presidential candidate they want. And many of you just don’t seem to see that. You don’t have to like your country’s two-party system, but it pays to be able to understand it so that you can recognize when it’s being used like this.
EDIT: thanks to Reddit user Mauve_Cubedweller for this post found on tumblr regarding the issue (which apparently came from reddit)
There appears to be quite a lot of misinformation in there, and possibly written by a Democrat appologist, but this part especially jumps out at me as being totally wrong, since the provision was authored by Levin (D) and McCain (R)- and we all know how the voting went (not to mention how miserably the Udall amendment failed):
The sections of NDAA that many people here seem to have a problem with are sections that were added into the document by primarily Republican legislators and which the President adamantly opposes but was powerless to stop.
The threat to veto was because of a spat over the exact specifics of powers granted to the executive branch in our increasingly totalitarian police state, not the trampling of liberty or freedom.
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Hedges to sue Obama, Panetta source (including legal doc): http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/why_im_suing_barack_obama_20120116/ + Show Spoiler + Attorneys Carl J. Mayer and Bruce I. Afran filed a complaint Friday in the Southern U.S. District Court in New York City on my behalf as a plaintiff against Barack Obama and Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta to challenge the legality of the Authorization for Use of Military Force as embedded in the latest version of the National Defense Authorization Act, signed by the president Dec. 31.
The act authorizes the military in Title X, Subtitle D, entitled “Counter-Terrorism,” for the first time in more than 200 years, to carry out domestic policing. With this bill, which will take effect March 3, the military can indefinitely detain without trial any U.S. citizen deemed to be a terrorist or an accessory to terrorism. And suspects can be shipped by the military to our offshore penal colony in Guantanamo Bay and kept there until “the end of hostilities.” It is a catastrophic blow to civil liberties.
I spent many years in countries where the military had the power to arrest and detain citizens without charge. I have been in some of these jails. I have friends and colleagues who have “disappeared” into military gulags. I know the consequences of granting sweeping and unrestricted policing power to the armed forces of any nation. And while my battle may be quixotic, it is one that has to be fought if we are to have any hope of pulling this country back from corporate fascism.
Section 1031 of the bill defines a “covered person”—one subject to detention—as “a person who was a part of or substantially supported al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners, including any person who has committed a belligerent act or has directly supported such hostilities in aid of such enemy forces.”
The bill, however, does not define the terms “substantially supported,” “directly supported” or “associated forces.” I met regularly with leaders of Hamas and Islamic Jihad in Gaza. I used to visit Palestine Liberation Organization leaders, including Yasser Arafat and Abu Jihad, in Tunis when they were branded international terrorists. I have spent time with the Revolutionary Guard in Iran and was in northern Iraq and southeastern Turkey with fighters from the Kurdistan Workers’ Party. All these entities were or are labeled as terrorist organizations by the U.S. government. What would this bill have meant if it had been in place when I and other Americans traveled in the 1980s with armed units of the Sandinistas in Nicaragua or the Farabundo Marti National Liberation Front guerrillas in El Salvador? What would it have meant for those of us who were with the southern insurgents during the civil war in Yemen or the rebels in the southern Sudan? I have had dinner more times than I can count with people whom this country brands as terrorists. But that does not make me one.
Once a group is deemed to be a terrorist organization, whether it is a Palestinian charity or an element of the Uighur independence movement, the military can under this bill pick up a U.S. citizen who supported charities associated with the group or unwittingly sent money or medical supplies to front groups. We have already seen the persecution and closure of Islamic charity organizations in the United States that supported the Palestinians. Now the members of these organizations can be treated like card-carrying “terrorists” and sent to Guantanamo.
But I suspect the real purpose of this bill is to thwart internal, domestic movements that threaten the corporate state. The definition of a terrorist is already so amorphous under the Patriot Act that there are probably a few million Americans who qualify to be investigated if not locked up. Consider the arcane criteria that can make you a suspect in our new military-corporate state. The Department of Justice considers you worth investigating if you are missing a few fingers, if you have weatherproof ammunition, if you own guns or if you have hoarded more than seven days of food in your house. Adding a few of the obstructionist tactics of the Occupy movement to this list would be a seamless process. On the whim of the military, a suspected “terrorist” who also happens to be a U.S. citizen can suffer extraordinary rendition—being kidnapped and then left to rot in one of our black sites “until the end of hostilities.” Since this is an endless war that will be a very long stay.
This demented “war on terror” is as undefined and vague as such a conflict is in any totalitarian state. Dissent is increasingly equated in this country with treason. Enemies supposedly lurk in every organization that does not chant the patriotic mantras provided to it by the state. And this bill feeds a mounting state paranoia. It expands our permanent war to every spot on the globe. It erases fundamental constitutional liberties. It means we can no longer use the word “democracy” to describe our political system.
The supine and gutless Democratic Party, which would have feigned outrage if George W. Bush had put this into law, appears willing, once again, to grant Obama a pass. But I won’t. What he has done is unforgivable, unconstitutional and exceedingly dangerous. The threat and reach of al-Qaida—which I spent a year covering for The New York Times in Europe and the Middle East—are marginal, despite the attacks of 9/11. The terrorist group poses no existential threat to the nation. It has been so disrupted and broken that it can barely function. Osama bin Laden was gunned down by commandos and his body dumped into the sea. Even the Pentagon says the organization is crippled. So why, a decade after the start of the so-called war on terror, do these draconian measures need to be implemented? Why do U.S. citizens now need to be specifically singled out for military detention and denial of due process when under the 2001 Authorization for Use of Military Force the president can apparently find the legal cover to serve as judge, jury and executioner to assassinate U.S. citizens, as he did in the killing of the cleric Anwar al-Awlaki in Yemen? Why is this bill necessary when the government routinely ignores our Fifth Amendment rights—“No person shall be deprived of life without due process of law”—as well as our First Amendment right of free speech? How much more power do they need to fight “terrorism”?
Fear is the psychological weapon of choice for totalitarian systems of power. Make the people afraid. Get them to surrender their rights in the name of national security. And then finish off the few who aren’t afraid enough. If this law is not revoked we will be no different from any sordid military dictatorship. Its implementation will be a huge leap forward for the corporate oligarchs who plan to continue to plunder the nation and use state and military security to cow the population into submission.
The oddest part of this legislation is that the FBI, the CIA, the director of national intelligence, the Pentagon and the attorney general didn’t support it. FBI Director Robert Mueller said he feared the bill would actually impede the bureau’s ability to investigate terrorism because it would be harder to win cooperation from suspects held by the military. “The possibility looms that we will lose opportunities to obtain cooperation from the persons in the past that we’ve been fairly successful in gaining,” he told Congress.
But it passed anyway. And I suspect it passed because the corporations, seeing the unrest in the streets, knowing that things are about to get much worse, worrying that the Occupy movement will expand, do not trust the police to protect them. They want to be able to call in the Army. And now they can.
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On January 02 2012 02:54 Orcasgt24 wrote: So where are the OWS type protests for this bill? What the hell kind of free country could allow such a proposal to pass into law without resistance from the people.
Governements are nothing without people and it is your right to oppose your own government should you deem them unworthy
I agree entirely. For one, its definitely not covered much by the media, and two, many people think it would/could never happen. I'm no Historian, but I'm pretty sure Hitler passed a document granting him similar powers; to jail indefinitely anyone deemed a threat to the nation. If they say they won't actually use it to detain a citizen then why is it in there? Power like this should never be given to the Government, especially under such vague conditions.
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WASHINGTON -- The White House released rules Tuesday evening waiving the most controversial piece of the new military detention law, and exempting U.S. citizens, as well as other broad categories of suspected terrorists.
Indefinite military detention of Americans and others was granted in the defense authorization bill President Barack Obama signed just before Christmas, sparking a storm of anger from civil libertarians on the left and right.
The new rules -- which deal with Section 1022 of the law -- are aimed at soothing many of their gravest concerns, an administration official said. Those concerns are led by the possibility that a law that grants the president authority to jail Americans without trial in Guantanamo Bay based on secret evidence could easily be abused.
"It is important to recognize that the scope of the new law is limited," says a fact sheet released by the White House, focusing on that worry. "Section 1022 does not apply to U.S. citizens, and the President has decided to waive its application to lawful permanent residents arrested in the United States."
Source
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On January 18 2012 18:52 mmp wrote:Hedges to sue Obama, Panetta source (including legal doc): http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/why_im_suing_barack_obama_20120116/+ Show Spoiler + Attorneys Carl J. Mayer and Bruce I. Afran filed a complaint Friday in the Southern U.S. District Court in New York City on my behalf as a plaintiff against Barack Obama and Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta to challenge the legality of the Authorization for Use of Military Force as embedded in the latest version of the National Defense Authorization Act, signed by the president Dec. 31.
The act authorizes the military in Title X, Subtitle D, entitled “Counter-Terrorism,” for the first time in more than 200 years, to carry out domestic policing. With this bill, which will take effect March 3, the military can indefinitely detain without trial any U.S. citizen deemed to be a terrorist or an accessory to terrorism. And suspects can be shipped by the military to our offshore penal colony in Guantanamo Bay and kept there until “the end of hostilities.” It is a catastrophic blow to civil liberties.
I spent many years in countries where the military had the power to arrest and detain citizens without charge. I have been in some of these jails. I have friends and colleagues who have “disappeared” into military gulags. I know the consequences of granting sweeping and unrestricted policing power to the armed forces of any nation. And while my battle may be quixotic, it is one that has to be fought if we are to have any hope of pulling this country back from corporate fascism.
Section 1031 of the bill defines a “covered person”—one subject to detention—as “a person who was a part of or substantially supported al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners, including any person who has committed a belligerent act or has directly supported such hostilities in aid of such enemy forces.”
The bill, however, does not define the terms “substantially supported,” “directly supported” or “associated forces.” I met regularly with leaders of Hamas and Islamic Jihad in Gaza. I used to visit Palestine Liberation Organization leaders, including Yasser Arafat and Abu Jihad, in Tunis when they were branded international terrorists. I have spent time with the Revolutionary Guard in Iran and was in northern Iraq and southeastern Turkey with fighters from the Kurdistan Workers’ Party. All these entities were or are labeled as terrorist organizations by the U.S. government. What would this bill have meant if it had been in place when I and other Americans traveled in the 1980s with armed units of the Sandinistas in Nicaragua or the Farabundo Marti National Liberation Front guerrillas in El Salvador? What would it have meant for those of us who were with the southern insurgents during the civil war in Yemen or the rebels in the southern Sudan? I have had dinner more times than I can count with people whom this country brands as terrorists. But that does not make me one.
Once a group is deemed to be a terrorist organization, whether it is a Palestinian charity or an element of the Uighur independence movement, the military can under this bill pick up a U.S. citizen who supported charities associated with the group or unwittingly sent money or medical supplies to front groups. We have already seen the persecution and closure of Islamic charity organizations in the United States that supported the Palestinians. Now the members of these organizations can be treated like card-carrying “terrorists” and sent to Guantanamo.
But I suspect the real purpose of this bill is to thwart internal, domestic movements that threaten the corporate state. The definition of a terrorist is already so amorphous under the Patriot Act that there are probably a few million Americans who qualify to be investigated if not locked up. Consider the arcane criteria that can make you a suspect in our new military-corporate state. The Department of Justice considers you worth investigating if you are missing a few fingers, if you have weatherproof ammunition, if you own guns or if you have hoarded more than seven days of food in your house. Adding a few of the obstructionist tactics of the Occupy movement to this list would be a seamless process. On the whim of the military, a suspected “terrorist” who also happens to be a U.S. citizen can suffer extraordinary rendition—being kidnapped and then left to rot in one of our black sites “until the end of hostilities.” Since this is an endless war that will be a very long stay.
This demented “war on terror” is as undefined and vague as such a conflict is in any totalitarian state. Dissent is increasingly equated in this country with treason. Enemies supposedly lurk in every organization that does not chant the patriotic mantras provided to it by the state. And this bill feeds a mounting state paranoia. It expands our permanent war to every spot on the globe. It erases fundamental constitutional liberties. It means we can no longer use the word “democracy” to describe our political system.
The supine and gutless Democratic Party, which would have feigned outrage if George W. Bush had put this into law, appears willing, once again, to grant Obama a pass. But I won’t. What he has done is unforgivable, unconstitutional and exceedingly dangerous. The threat and reach of al-Qaida—which I spent a year covering for The New York Times in Europe and the Middle East—are marginal, despite the attacks of 9/11. The terrorist group poses no existential threat to the nation. It has been so disrupted and broken that it can barely function. Osama bin Laden was gunned down by commandos and his body dumped into the sea. Even the Pentagon says the organization is crippled. So why, a decade after the start of the so-called war on terror, do these draconian measures need to be implemented? Why do U.S. citizens now need to be specifically singled out for military detention and denial of due process when under the 2001 Authorization for Use of Military Force the president can apparently find the legal cover to serve as judge, jury and executioner to assassinate U.S. citizens, as he did in the killing of the cleric Anwar al-Awlaki in Yemen? Why is this bill necessary when the government routinely ignores our Fifth Amendment rights—“No person shall be deprived of life without due process of law”—as well as our First Amendment right of free speech? How much more power do they need to fight “terrorism”?
Fear is the psychological weapon of choice for totalitarian systems of power. Make the people afraid. Get them to surrender their rights in the name of national security. And then finish off the few who aren’t afraid enough. If this law is not revoked we will be no different from any sordid military dictatorship. Its implementation will be a huge leap forward for the corporate oligarchs who plan to continue to plunder the nation and use state and military security to cow the population into submission.
The oddest part of this legislation is that the FBI, the CIA, the director of national intelligence, the Pentagon and the attorney general didn’t support it. FBI Director Robert Mueller said he feared the bill would actually impede the bureau’s ability to investigate terrorism because it would be harder to win cooperation from suspects held by the military. “The possibility looms that we will lose opportunities to obtain cooperation from the persons in the past that we’ve been fairly successful in gaining,” he told Congress.
But it passed anyway. And I suspect it passed because the corporations, seeing the unrest in the streets, knowing that things are about to get much worse, worrying that the Occupy movement will expand, do not trust the police to protect them. They want to be able to call in the Army. And now they can.
Sad that this doesn't seem to be getting any attention. I guess people that dismiss the idea that this will affect political speech still paint us as a bunch of loonies for not sucking it up like pragmatic moderates.
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/coming_to_a_gulag_near_you_20120402/
“You are unable to say that [such a book] consisting of political speech could not be captured under [NDAA section] 1021?” the judge asked.
“We can’t say that,” Torrance answered.
“Are you telling me that no U.S. citizen can be detained under 1021?” Forest asked.
“That’s not a reasonable fear,” the government lawyer said.
“Say it’s reasonable to fear you will be unlucky [and face] detention, trial. What does ‘directly supported’ mean?” she asked.
“We have not said anything about that …” Torrance answered.
“What do you think it means?” the judge asked. “Give me an example that distinguishes between direct and indirect support. Give me a single example.”?
“We have not come to a position on that,” he said.
“So assume you are a U.S. citizen trying not to run afoul of this law. What does it [the phrase] mean to you?” the judge said.
“I couldn’t offer any specific language,” Torrance answered. “I don’t have a specific example.”
There are now 1,271 government agencies and 1,931 private companies that work on programs related to counterterrorism, homeland security and intelligence in about 10,000 locations across the United States, The Washington Post reported in a 2010 series by Dana Priest and William M. Arken. There are 854,000 people with top-secret security clearances, the reporters wrote, and in Washington, D.C., and the surrounding area 33 building complexes for top-secret intelligence work are under construction or have been built since September 2011. Investigative reporter James Bamford wrote in the latest issue of Wired magazine that the National Security Agency is building the largest spy center in the country in Bluffdale, Utah, as part of a secret NSA surveillance program code-named “Stellar Wind.” Bamford noted that the NSA has established listening posts throughout the country to collect, store and examine billions of email messages and phone calls.
*Insert relevant Ben Franklin quote about liberty here*
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On March 02 2012 12:07 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +WASHINGTON -- The White House released rules Tuesday evening waiving the most controversial piece of the new military detention law, and exempting U.S. citizens, as well as other broad categories of suspected terrorists.
Indefinite military detention of Americans and others was granted in the defense authorization bill President Barack Obama signed just before Christmas, sparking a storm of anger from civil libertarians on the left and right.
The new rules -- which deal with Section 1022 of the law -- are aimed at soothing many of their gravest concerns, an administration official said. Those concerns are led by the possibility that a law that grants the president authority to jail Americans without trial in Guantanamo Bay based on secret evidence could easily be abused.
"It is important to recognize that the scope of the new law is limited," says a fact sheet released by the White House, focusing on that worry. "Section 1022 does not apply to U.S. citizens, and the President has decided to waive its application to lawful permanent residents arrested in the United States." Source
Doesn't appear to be the whole story though (I can never trust a thing that comes out of the White House these days). Link from a comment on that site:
http://verdict.justia.com/2012/02/29/chipping-away-at-the-ndaa
Limiting the NDAA via Congressional Action
One problem with a presidential directive is, of course, that it can be rescinded by a future president. And while the new directive represents a laudable effort to narrow some of the NDAA’s most objectionable provisions, it leaves section 1021 of the law untouched.
A much better, if more long-term, approach to remedying the law’s problems would be to repeal or amend it. The hearings held this morning by the Senate Judiciary Committee are a step in that direction.
Close observers of the NDAA will recall that its detention provisions were passed without any hearings, and that even though its provisions negatively impacted the civilian justice system, the bill was never brought before the House or Senate Judiciary Committees for a vote. Today’s hearing, while too late to prevent the NDAA’s passage, should serve to formally initiate the broad congressional discussion that the law’s provisions merit.
What is needed is statutory reform: a clear legal rule that terrorism cases belong in the civilian courts. Because, in the end, flexibility and executive discretion—the focus of the new directive—mean that the government is as free to take the wrong approach as the right one.
As the fact sheet accompanying the directive emphasizes, the new rules open up the executive’s detention options, but they do not limit those options. A determination that section 1022 does not apply or should be waived “does not affect the executive branch’s discretion to use any lawful disposition option…[It just means] that there is no statutory requirement to place an individual in military custody.”
Pretty slick eh?
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I know this is tl;dr, and the only reason I'm posting it is so that whenever someone posts a dumb over-simplified thread saying that the U.S. Army now has the right to imprison the entirety of OWS I can just close it and link to this thread instead.
Article by Chris Hedges entitled "First They Come For the Muslims" (ironic considering my "sensationalized" closed topic in which I quoted Niemoller lol): http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/first_they_come_for_the_muslims_20120416/
Tarek Mehanna's statement before receiving a 17.5 year sentence:
TAREK’S SENTENCING STATEMENT APRIL 12, 2012 Read to Judge O’Toole during his sentencing, April 12th 2012.
In the name of God the most gracious the most merciful Exactly four years ago this month I was finishing my work shift at a local hospital. As I was walking to my car I was approached by two federal agents. They said that I had a choice to make: I could do things the easy way, or I could do them the hard way. The “easy ” way, as they explained, was that I would become an informant for the government, and if I did so I would never see the inside of a courtroom or a prison cell. As for the hard way, this is it. Here I am, having spent the majority of the four years since then in a solitary cell the size of a small closet, in which I am locked down for 23 hours each day. The FBI and these prosecutors worked very hard-and the government spent millions of tax dollars – to put me in that cell, keep me there, put me on trial, and finally to have me stand here before you today to be sentenced to even more time in a cell.
In the weeks leading up to this moment, many people have offered suggestions as to what I should say to you. Some said I should plead for mercy in hopes of a light sentence, while others suggested I would be hit hard either way. But what I want to do is just talk about myself for a few minutes.
When I refused to become an informant, the government responded by charging me with the “crime” of supporting the mujahideen fighting the occupation of Muslim countries around the world. Or as they like to call them, “terrorists.” I wasn’t born in a Muslim country, though. I was born and raised right here in America and this angers many people: how is it that I can be an American and believe the things I believe, take the positions I take? Everything a man is exposed to in his environment becomes an ingredient that shapes his outlook, and I’m no different. So, in more ways than one, it’s because of America that I am who I am.
When I was six, I began putting together a massive collection of comic books. Batman implanted a concept in my mind, introduced me to a paradigm as to how the world is set up: that there are oppressors, there are the oppressed, and there are those who step up to defend the oppressed. This resonated with me so much that throughout the rest of my childhood, I gravitated towards any book that reflected that paradigm – Uncle Tom’s Cabin, The Autobiography of Malcolm X, and I even saw an ehical dimension to The Catcher in the Rye. By the time I began high school and took a real history class, I was learning just how real that paradigm is in the world. I learned about the Native Americans and what befell them at the hands of European settlers. I learned about how the descendents of those European settlers were in turn oppressed under the tyranny of King George III.
I read about Paul Revere, Tom Paine, and how Americans began an armed insurgency against British forces – an insurgency we now celebrate as the American revolutionary war. As a kid I even went on school field trips just blocks away from where we sit now. I learned about Harriet Tubman, Nat Turner, John Brown, and the fight against slavery in this country. I learned about Emma Goldman, Eugene Debs, and the struggles of the labor unions, working class, and poor. I learned about Anne Frank, the Nazis, and how they persecuted minorities and imprisoned dissidents. I learned about Rosa Parks, Malcolm X, Martin Luther King, and the civil rights struggle. I learned about Ho Chi Minh, and how the Vietnamese fought for decades to liberate themselves from one invader after another. I learned about Nelson Mandela and the fight against apartheid in South Africa. Everything I learned in those years confirmed what I was beginning to learn when I was six: that throughout history, there has been a constant struggle between the oppressed and their oppressors. With each struggle I learned about, I found myself consistently siding with the oppressed, and consistently respecting those who stepped up to defend them -regardless of nationality, regardless of religion. And I never threw my class notes away. As I stand here speaking, they are in a neat pile in my bedroom closet at home.
From all the historical figures I learned about, one stood out above the rest. I was impressed be many things about Malcolm X, but above all, I was fascinated by the idea of transformation, his transformation. I don’t know if you’ve seen the movie “X” by Spike Lee, it’s over three and a half hours long, and the Malcolm at the beginning is different from the Malcolm at the end. He starts off as an illiterate criminal, but ends up a husband, a father, a protective and eloquent leader for his people, a disciplined Muslim performing the Hajj in Makkah, and finally, a martyr. Malcolm’s life taught me that Islam is not something inherited; it’s not a culture or ethnicity. It’s a way of life, a state of mind anyone can choose no matter where they come from or how they were raised. This led me to look deeper into Islam, and I was hooked. I was just a teenager, but Islam answered the question that the greatest scientific minds were clueless about, the question that drives the rich & famous to depression and suicide from being unable to answer: what is the purpose of life? Why do we exist in this Universe? But it also answered the question of how we’re supposed to exist. And since there’s no hierarchy or priesthood, I could directly and immediately begin digging into the texts of the Qur’an and the teachings of Prophet Muhammad, to begin the journey of understanding what this was all about, the implications of Islam for me as a human being, as an individual, for the people around me, for the world; and the more I learned, the more I valued Islam like a piece of gold. This was when I was a teen, but even today, despite the pressures of the last few years, I stand here before you, and everyone else in this courtroom, as a very proud Muslim.
With that, my attention turned to what was happening to other Muslims in different parts of the world. And everywhere I looked, I saw the powers that be trying to destroy what I loved. I learned what the Soviets had done to the Muslims of Afghanistan. I learned what the Serbs had done to the Muslims of Bosnia. I learned what the Russians were doing to the Muslims of Chechnya. I learned what Israel had done in Lebanon – and what it continues to do in Palestine – with the full backing of the United States. And I learned what America itself was doing to Muslims. I learned about the Gulf War, and the depleted uranium bombs that killed thousands and caused cancer rates to skyrocket across Iraq. I learned about the American-led sanctions that prevented food, medicine, and medical equipment from entering Iraq, and how – according to the United Nations – over half a million children perished as a result. I remember a clip from a ’60 Minutes‘ interview of Madeline Albright where she expressed her view that these dead children were “worth it.” I watched on September 11th as a group of people felt driven to hijack airplanes and fly them into buildings from their outrage at the deaths of these children. I watched as America then attacked and invaded Iraq directly. I saw the effects of ’Shock & Awe’ in the opening day of the invasion – the children in hospital wards with shrapnel from American missiles sticking but of their foreheads (of course, none of this was shown on CNN).
I learned about the town of Haditha, where 24 Muslims – including a 76-year old man in a wheelchair, women, and even toddlers – were shot up and blown up in their bedclothes as the slept by US Marines. I learned about Abeer al-Janabi, a fourteen-year old Iraqi girl gang-raped by five American soldiers, who then shot her and her family in the head, then set fire to their corpses. I just want to point out, as you can see, Muslim women don’t even show their hair to unrelated men. So try to imagine this young girl from a conservative village with her dress torn off, being sexually assaulted by not one, not two, not three, not four, but five soldiers. Even today, as I sit in my jail cell, I read about the drone strikes which continue to kill Muslims daily in places like Pakistan, Somalia, and Yemen. Just last month, we all heard about the seventeen Afghan Muslims – mostly mothers and their kids – shot to death by an American soldier, who also set fire to their corpses. These are just the stories that make it to the headlines, but one of the first concepts I learned in Islam is that of loyalty, of brotherhood – that each Muslim woman is my sister, each man is my brother, and together, we are one large body who must protect each other. In other words, I couldn’t see these things beings done to my brothers & sisters – including by America – and remain neutral. My sympathy for the oppressed continued, but was now more personal, as was my respect for those defending them.
I mentioned Paul Revere – when he went on his midnight ride, it was for the purpose of warning the people that the British were marching to Lexington to arrest Sam Adams and John Hancock, then on to Concord to confiscate the weapons stored there by the Minuteman. By the time they got to Concord, they found the Minuteman waiting for them, weapons in hand. They fired at the British, fought them, and beat them. From that battle came the American Revolution. There’s an Arabic word to describe what those Minutemen did that day. That word is: JIHAD, and this is what my trial was about. All those videos and translations and childish bickering over ‘Oh, he translated this paragraph’ and ‘Oh, he edited that sentence,’ and all those exhibits revolved around a single issue: Muslims who were defending themselves against American soldiers doing to them exactly what the British did to America. It was made crystal clear at trial that I never, ever plotted to “kill Americans” at shopping malls or whatever the story was. The government’s own witnesses contradicted this claim, and we put expert after expert up on that stand, who spent hours dissecting my every written word, who explained my beliefs. Further, when I was free, the government sent an undercover agent to prod me into one of their little “terror plots,” but I refused to participate. Mysteriously, however, the jury never heard this.
So, this trial was not about my position on Muslims killing American civilians. It was about my position on Americans killing Muslim civilians, which is that Muslims should defend their lands from foreign invaders – Soviets, Americans, or Martians. This is what I believe. It’s what I’ve always believed, and what I will always believe. This is not terrorism, and it’s not extremism. It’s what the arrows on that seal above your head represent: defense of the homeland. So, I disagree with my lawyers when they say that you don’t have to agree with my beliefs – no. Anyone with commonsense and humanity has no choice but to agree with me. If someone breaks into your home to rob you and harm your family, logic dictates that you do whatever it takes to expel that invader from your home. But when that home is a Muslim land, and that invader is the US military, for some reason the standards suddenly change. Common sense is renamed ”terrorism” and the people defending themselves against those who come to kill them from across the ocean become “the terrorists” who are ”killing Americans.” The mentality that America was victimized with when British soldiers walked these streets 2 ½ centuries ago is the same mentality Muslims are victimized by as American soldiers walk their streets today. It’s the mentality of colonialism.
When Sgt. Bales shot those Afghans to death last month, all of the focus in the media was on him-his life, his stress, his PTSD, the mortgage on his home-as if he was the victim. Very little sympathy was expressed for the people he actually killed, as if they’re not real, they’re not humans. Unfortunately, this mentality trickles down to everyone in society, whether or not they realize it. Even with my lawyers, it took nearly two years of discussing, explaining, and clarifying before they were finally able to think outside the box and at least ostensibly accept the logic in what I was saying. Two years! If it took that long for people so intelligent, whose job it is to defend me, to de-program themselves, then to throw me in front of a randomly selected jury under the premise that they’re my “impartial peers,” I mean, come on. I wasn’t tried before a jury of my peers because with the mentality gripping America today, I have no peers. Counting on this fact, the government prosecuted me – not because they needed to, but simply because they could.
I learned one more thing in history class: America has historically supported the most unjust policies against its minorities – practices that were even protected by the law – only to look back later and ask: ’what were we thinking?’ Slavery, Jim Crow, the internment of the Japanese during World War II – each was widely accepted by American society, each was defended by the Supreme Court. But as time passed and America changed, both people and courts looked back and asked ’What were we thinking?’ Nelson Mandela was considered a terrorist by the South African government, and given a life sentence. But time passed, the world changed, they realized how oppressive their policies were, that it was not he who was the terrorist, and they released him from prison. He even became president. So, everything is subjective - even this whole business of “terrorism” and who is a “terrorist.” It all depends on the time and place and who the superpower happens to be at the moment.
In your eyes, I’m a terrorist, and it’s perfectly reasonable that I be standing here in an orange jumpsuit. But one day, America will change and people will recognize this day for what it is. They will look at how hundreds of thousands of Muslims were killed and maimed by the US military in foreign countries, yet somehow I’m the one going to prison for “conspiring to kill and maim” in those countries – because I support the Mujahidin defending those people. They will look back on how the government spent millions of dollars to imprison me as a ”terrorist,” yet if we were to somehow bring Abeer al-Janabi back to life in the moment she was being gang-raped by your soldiers, to put her on that witness stand and ask her who the “terrorists” are, she sure wouldn’t be pointing at me.
The government says that I was obsessed with violence, obsessed with ”killing Americans.” But, as a Muslim living in these times, I can think of a lie no more ironic.
-Tarek Mehanna 4/12/12
http://www.salon.com/2012/04/13/the_real_criminals_in_the_tarek_mehanna_case/
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