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On December 01 2011 05:09 Silidons wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 05:01 jj33 wrote:On December 01 2011 04:57 Interloper wrote:On December 01 2011 04:54 jj33 wrote:
Alot of justification for pirating in here.
We live in a culture of something for nothing and me me me.
I love pc games and console games, but when I hear of PC elitists crying about how a game was developed mostly for console like skyrim and not tapping into the true potential of PC and how consoles are ruining pc gaming etc, that just makes me laugh.
More and more developers will primiarly develop for consoles, they want to make money not lose money.
Console games are pirated too. Pirated ALOT more than you think they are. I know they are, but there is a reason why alot of developers love consoles.I'm pretty sure they make more money on consoles than PC. There is a reason why skyrim was developed for 360 primarily and not PC. Because the graphics can look super shitty and way more people play console games? Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 05:09 Interloper wrote:On December 01 2011 05:07 Silidons wrote:On December 01 2011 04:58 Myles wrote:On December 01 2011 04:56 Silidons wrote:On December 01 2011 04:53 Interloper wrote:On December 01 2011 04:47 Klondikebar wrote:On December 01 2011 04:44 jtype wrote:
OK, lets get this straight. To those of you who think piracy is harming the industry. Actually, let me rephrase that. To those of you who think piracy in no way helps the industry - Do you really think that if it was as clear cut as you think it is and every developer 'knew' that piracy was only bad for the industry and was ruining it, that we'd be able to pirate games at all?
Just throwing this out there, as I think too many people think this issue is more clear-cut than it is. Developers aren't the good guys and pirates aren't the bad guys. The reverse is also not true. Don't imagine that DRM is what you're told to believe it is. Don't imagine that piracy is what you've been taught to believe it is.
Personally, I buy my games, but I don't think that piracy the evil that some of you think it is and I don't think developers are stupid enough to think that either. It will be 100% impossible to pirate Diablo III since the entire game is emulated on the Blizzard servers. The only reason we've been able to pirate games up to this point is because developers and publishers haven't had the technology to keep us from doing so. They have the technology now. Impossible huh? I think you will be surprised... How many people played online SC2 without a key? A good amount. Pirate servers do exist. I'm talking about on the normal ladder. Not any private server. The correct answer is none. Well, "How many people played online SC2 without a key?" was your question. The answer is that some people did. And if it wasnt on the official servers, so what? It was still online with the same basic experience. Not all the features maybe, but it was still possible, and will be possible for D3 as well. I just rephrased my question that I posted a little above which was "How many people played the ladder on sc2 without a key?" If it wasn't on official servers... well then it's not even worth it to play much is it? How many people play WoW on private servers? A drop in a bucket compared to the real servers.
What do you mean by that? I am willing to wager that alot of those who pirated found thier time as well spent as anyone who bought the game. And alot, ALOT, of people play WoW on private servers.
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On December 01 2011 05:12 Nemireck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 05:06 jj33 wrote:On December 01 2011 05:00 Nemireck wrote:On December 01 2011 04:57 Interloper wrote:On December 01 2011 04:54 jj33 wrote:
Alot of justification for pirating in here.
We live in a culture of something for nothing and me me me.
I love pc games and console games, but when I hear of PC elitists crying about how a game was developed mostly for console like skyrim and not tapping into the true potential of PC and how consoles are ruining pc gaming etc, that just makes me laugh.
More and more developers will primiarly develop for consoles, they want to make money not lose money.
Console games are pirated too. Pirated ALOT more than you think they are. Worse even, is the fact that every time a game is sold second-hand, it not only has the same affect as pirating the game, but someone else who ISN'T the game publisher/developer makes a profit off of it. It's considered an even bigger problem than piracy itself in much of the console industry. You are right, second hand sales from gamestop for example are hurting the game companies. Hence why they want to get rid of gamestop and eventually get digital downloads straight from them. Here's the thing, you seem to want to justify piracy and say it's not that bad because second hand used games sales are worse. I'm not sitting on a high horse, but people trying to justify piracy and saying it's not THAT bad is just hilarious to me. I'm not trying to justify piracy at all. You seem to have mistaken me for someone else. The reason that second-hand sales are worse is that they actually represent a concrete SALE. Whereas not every pirated copy of a game represents the same.
Used game sales absolutely do not represent a concrete sale. If someone buys a game for $15 you have no way of knowing whether they would have bought it for $50 if that was their only option. They may have simply opted to not buy the game or buy a different game.
Also, the person who sold said used game might've used the money they got for the trade-in to purchase a new game themselves. In that scenario, used game sales increase new game sales.
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On December 01 2011 05:09 Silidons wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 05:01 jj33 wrote:On December 01 2011 04:57 Interloper wrote:On December 01 2011 04:54 jj33 wrote:
Alot of justification for pirating in here.
We live in a culture of something for nothing and me me me.
I love pc games and console games, but when I hear of PC elitists crying about how a game was developed mostly for console like skyrim and not tapping into the true potential of PC and how consoles are ruining pc gaming etc, that just makes me laugh.
More and more developers will primiarly develop for consoles, they want to make money not lose money.
Console games are pirated too. Pirated ALOT more than you think they are. I know they are, but there is a reason why alot of developers love consoles.I'm pretty sure they make more money on consoles than PC. There is a reason why skyrim was developed for 360 primarily and not PC. Because the graphics can look super shitty and way more people play console games? Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 05:09 Interloper wrote:On December 01 2011 05:07 Silidons wrote:On December 01 2011 04:58 Myles wrote:On December 01 2011 04:56 Silidons wrote:On December 01 2011 04:53 Interloper wrote:On December 01 2011 04:47 Klondikebar wrote:On December 01 2011 04:44 jtype wrote:
OK, lets get this straight. To those of you who think piracy is harming the industry. Actually, let me rephrase that. To those of you who think piracy in no way helps the industry - Do you really think that if it was as clear cut as you think it is and every developer 'knew' that piracy was only bad for the industry and was ruining it, that we'd be able to pirate games at all?
Just throwing this out there, as I think too many people think this issue is more clear-cut than it is. Developers aren't the good guys and pirates aren't the bad guys. The reverse is also not true. Don't imagine that DRM is what you're told to believe it is. Don't imagine that piracy is what you've been taught to believe it is.
Personally, I buy my games, but I don't think that piracy the evil that some of you think it is and I don't think developers are stupid enough to think that either. It will be 100% impossible to pirate Diablo III since the entire game is emulated on the Blizzard servers. The only reason we've been able to pirate games up to this point is because developers and publishers haven't had the technology to keep us from doing so. They have the technology now. Impossible huh? I think you will be surprised... How many people played online SC2 without a key? A good amount. Pirate servers do exist. I'm talking about on the normal ladder. Not any private server. The correct answer is none. Well, "How many people played online SC2 without a key?" was your question. The answer is that some people did. And if it wasnt on the official servers, so what? It was still online with the same basic experience. Not all the features maybe, but it was still possible, and will be possible for D3 as well. I just rephrased my question that I posted a little above which was "How many people played the ladder on sc2 without a key?" If it wasn't on official servers...well then it's not even worth it to play much is it? How many people play WoW on private servers? A drop in a bucket compared to the real servers.
Yes it's true way more people are on consoles. That is a big reason definitely, but the fact that pc games get pirated to hell is another reason they go console.
Yes I know console games get pirated, but I'm pretty sure PC piracy still surpasses it.
Oblivion got pirated badly when it came out on PC, pretty sure Bethesda took note of that was a big reason why they went 360 for primary development.
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On December 01 2011 03:09 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 03:06 Sm3agol wrote:On December 01 2011 02:53 Myles wrote:On December 01 2011 02:49 Nikon wrote:On December 01 2011 02:45 HereAndNow wrote:On December 01 2011 02:38 Nikon wrote:On December 01 2011 02:33 HereAndNow wrote:On December 01 2011 02:25 Nikon wrote:On December 01 2011 02:22 HereAndNow wrote:On December 01 2011 02:19 dementrio wrote:I have a better analogy than stealing. + Show Spoiler +it's not hard to find one, because, well, piracy isn't stealing You live in San Diego and you just turned 21. You go party hard in Mexico, where a bottle of tequila costs $10. The same bottle in the US costs $20, because there is heavy tax on alcohol thanks to the liberal media. You drink a bottle and come back for the hangover. How much did you steal from the US government? That's not a good analogy, because you're still paying for the service. If I could find the same game in two places, but one charged me $20 dollars less, it's still a sale. A better analogy is this. You have a magic gun that lets you clone anything you shoot with it. You walk onto a car dealership. You shoot a Camaro. You drive off in a brand new Camaro that you didn't pay for, but the one you cloned is still there. Is this stealing a car? Yeah. Yeah it fucking is. No, it's not. The owner of the original car still has it. You took a car that wasn't created and/or paid for by him in any capacity. #1 bad analogy. Alright, now what's to prevent 1000 people from walking on to the lot and doing the same thing? The going price of the 2011 Camaro is ~$35k. That's $35,000,000 worth of car that's driving out without being paid for. Oh look, the Camaro isn't being made anymore! But why? I still want a new Camaro even if I don't pay for it! Well you see, you fucking need to pay people for a service, or they're not going to keep making products because there's no revenue in it. How many pirates do you think are out there? Lol... if I clone a Camaro that goes at $35000, that's not $35000 lost for the company, since I can't afford it anyway. Now, with cars, there's a multitue of price ranges and different types, etc. So I'm able to afford a car. True, it's not as good as the Camaro, but it works. With computer games, however, I'm stuck with paying 60 Euro for a product, that I will add, costs 30 Euro in Finland (which I only found out today, thanks to this thread) - a country in which, a person at minimum wage earns 10 times what a person in my country does. It is $35000 wasted for the company though. Why should they even bother making cars when they won't sell? Again, this doesn't work for gaming because the games don't disappear, but the point still stands. Why do you spend time and money making a game that a good chunk of the people aren't going to pay for? You'll just run yourself broke that way. Do you even read what I write? People that pirate games can't afford them, due to poor pricing in most of the cases. If pirating was impossible, they still wouldn't have bought them. You can't magically wish more money into existance. Stop throwing out absolutes. Yes, some people who pirate stuff wouldn't be able to buy if they wanted to. There are others though who simply don't want to pay. As well as people who want a good demo, or are 'making a statement'. So again, stop posting absolutes as to why pirating happens - there are a variety of reasons. I would say the majority of people who download games illegally either 1. Can't afford them, or 2. Wouldn't buy them in the first place. I have friends with hundreds of GB of illegal games on their hard drives that they just download compulsively, because they can, same with music/movies. They never watch the movies, listen to the music, or play the games most of the time. Pirating games and getting them to work properly can be a pain in the butt if you actually spend a lot of time with the game(and depending on the game). Obviously this is just my experience, but people seeing "millions of illegal downloads" and them thinking that is millions in lost sales are delusional. And stupid, considering that an illegal download from someone that would never be able to buy it/just won't buy it in the first place doesn't affect them in the slightest other than free publicity. I don't disagree. A friend of mine has hundreds of gigs of songs on his computer. He could have never afforded to buy all of it. However, the problem is that you aren't paying for any of it. Normally, you might consume 1/5 of what you pirate(pulled out of my ass, don't take seriously) so you'd be contributing to some people. By pirating it all you're contributing to no one.
I'm not arguing morality, I'm arguing business. Morally, pirating is wrong. From a business side of it, though, I don't see how all this ridiculous, expensive, hard to use DRM makes sense.
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On December 01 2011 05:15 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 05:12 Nemireck wrote:On December 01 2011 05:06 jj33 wrote:On December 01 2011 05:00 Nemireck wrote:On December 01 2011 04:57 Interloper wrote:On December 01 2011 04:54 jj33 wrote:
Alot of justification for pirating in here.
We live in a culture of something for nothing and me me me.
I love pc games and console games, but when I hear of PC elitists crying about how a game was developed mostly for console like skyrim and not tapping into the true potential of PC and how consoles are ruining pc gaming etc, that just makes me laugh.
More and more developers will primiarly develop for consoles, they want to make money not lose money.
Console games are pirated too. Pirated ALOT more than you think they are. Worse even, is the fact that every time a game is sold second-hand, it not only has the same affect as pirating the game, but someone else who ISN'T the game publisher/developer makes a profit off of it. It's considered an even bigger problem than piracy itself in much of the console industry. You are right, second hand sales from gamestop for example are hurting the game companies. Hence why they want to get rid of gamestop and eventually get digital downloads straight from them. Here's the thing, you seem to want to justify piracy and say it's not that bad because second hand used games sales are worse. I'm not sitting on a high horse, but people trying to justify piracy and saying it's not THAT bad is just hilarious to me. I'm not trying to justify piracy at all. You seem to have mistaken me for someone else. The reason that second-hand sales are worse is that they actually represent a concrete SALE. Whereas not every pirated copy of a game represents the same. Used game sales absolutely do not represent a concrete sale. If someone buys a game for $15 you have no way of knowing whether they would have bought it for $50 if that was their only option. They may have simply opted to not buy the game or buy a different game. Also, the person who sold said used game might've used the money they got for the trade-in to purchase a new game themselves. In that scenario, used game sales increase new game sales.
They absolutely DO represent a concrete sale. If the game is sold, it's a SALE. Naturally, because it's second-hand it's worth less than a brand new copy, but it is still a sale that the developer could have made potential profit off of. If Gamestop, for instance, weren't Gamestop, but was "The Nintendo Store" owned and operated by Nintendo, and people brought in their used games to trade for new games, and then Nintendo sold those second-hand games for $15, they'd be making a profit that they aren't currently making, because right now Gamestop makes that money.
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On December 01 2011 05:17 jj33 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 05:09 Silidons wrote:On December 01 2011 05:01 jj33 wrote:On December 01 2011 04:57 Interloper wrote:On December 01 2011 04:54 jj33 wrote:
Alot of justification for pirating in here.
We live in a culture of something for nothing and me me me.
I love pc games and console games, but when I hear of PC elitists crying about how a game was developed mostly for console like skyrim and not tapping into the true potential of PC and how consoles are ruining pc gaming etc, that just makes me laugh.
More and more developers will primiarly develop for consoles, they want to make money not lose money.
Console games are pirated too. Pirated ALOT more than you think they are. I know they are, but there is a reason why alot of developers love consoles.I'm pretty sure they make more money on consoles than PC. There is a reason why skyrim was developed for 360 primarily and not PC. Because the graphics can look super shitty and way more people play console games? On December 01 2011 05:09 Interloper wrote:On December 01 2011 05:07 Silidons wrote:On December 01 2011 04:58 Myles wrote:On December 01 2011 04:56 Silidons wrote:On December 01 2011 04:53 Interloper wrote:On December 01 2011 04:47 Klondikebar wrote:On December 01 2011 04:44 jtype wrote:
OK, lets get this straight. To those of you who think piracy is harming the industry. Actually, let me rephrase that. To those of you who think piracy in no way helps the industry - Do you really think that if it was as clear cut as you think it is and every developer 'knew' that piracy was only bad for the industry and was ruining it, that we'd be able to pirate games at all?
Just throwing this out there, as I think too many people think this issue is more clear-cut than it is. Developers aren't the good guys and pirates aren't the bad guys. The reverse is also not true. Don't imagine that DRM is what you're told to believe it is. Don't imagine that piracy is what you've been taught to believe it is.
Personally, I buy my games, but I don't think that piracy the evil that some of you think it is and I don't think developers are stupid enough to think that either. It will be 100% impossible to pirate Diablo III since the entire game is emulated on the Blizzard servers. The only reason we've been able to pirate games up to this point is because developers and publishers haven't had the technology to keep us from doing so. They have the technology now. Impossible huh? I think you will be surprised... How many people played online SC2 without a key? A good amount. Pirate servers do exist. I'm talking about on the normal ladder. Not any private server. The correct answer is none. Well, "How many people played online SC2 without a key?" was your question. The answer is that some people did. And if it wasnt on the official servers, so what? It was still online with the same basic experience. Not all the features maybe, but it was still possible, and will be possible for D3 as well. I just rephrased my question that I posted a little above which was "How many people played the ladder on sc2 without a key?" If it wasn't on official servers...well then it's not even worth it to play much is it? How many people play WoW on private servers? A drop in a bucket compared to the real servers. Yes it's true way more people are on consoles. That is a big reason definitely, but the fact that pc games get pirated to hell is another reason they go console. Yes I know console games get pirated, but I'm pretty sure PC piracy still surpasses it. Oblivion got pirated badly when it came out on PC, pretty sure Bethesda took note of that was a big reason why they went 360 for primary development.
No, I think developers primarily develop games on consoles because it's easier to create a simple, console-friendly interface and port it to the pc, than vice-versa. They may state pc piracy as their reason, but that's a different issue.
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I find it odd that the OP has a free to play game video.
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On December 01 2011 05:07 jtype wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 05:03 Serelitz wrote:On December 01 2011 04:48 HereAndNow wrote:On December 01 2011 04:45 Serelitz wrote:On December 01 2011 04:37 HereAndNow wrote:
They also knew that they weren't going to sell a full rule book to each player, and accounted for that. Same for DnD books. They expect you to buy your pieces for the full experience. I've been watching this discussion for a few pages now but I have to step in here and say - what makes you think this isn't being done for video games? High prices to compensate for lost sales I mean. Yeah, and I'd much prefer if my DnD DMG didn't cost an arm and a leg. Like I said in a previous post, if there were less pirates, there'd be lower prices, and less need for pirates. But no one wants to put up with the inbetween stage of buying games and proving to developers that they can actually lower the price and still make a profit. Again, an argument you can turn around - no developer wants to be at the inbetween stage of lowering their prices before increased sales either. Because actually, in pure business terms, paying 50$ for a game is basically proving that the game is worth 50$. No one in their right mind can truly believe that more people paying 50$ for a game is going to make developers decide to sell their next game for less that.
Which is why not pirating and supporting a game will never make the price drop, whereas developers dropping the price will not necessarily lead to loss of income (due to an increase in sales).
The problem here is that like all piracy arguments, it can't be quantified to any extent so the status quo will most likely be preserved (save for incredibly intrusive laws like SOPA/PIPA which I am against). Considering that the industry isn't exactly shrinking, I don't think the status quo right now is that bad.
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On December 01 2011 05:18 Nemireck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 05:15 Klondikebar wrote:On December 01 2011 05:12 Nemireck wrote:On December 01 2011 05:06 jj33 wrote:On December 01 2011 05:00 Nemireck wrote:On December 01 2011 04:57 Interloper wrote:On December 01 2011 04:54 jj33 wrote:
Alot of justification for pirating in here.
We live in a culture of something for nothing and me me me.
I love pc games and console games, but when I hear of PC elitists crying about how a game was developed mostly for console like skyrim and not tapping into the true potential of PC and how consoles are ruining pc gaming etc, that just makes me laugh.
More and more developers will primiarly develop for consoles, they want to make money not lose money.
Console games are pirated too. Pirated ALOT more than you think they are. Worse even, is the fact that every time a game is sold second-hand, it not only has the same affect as pirating the game, but someone else who ISN'T the game publisher/developer makes a profit off of it. It's considered an even bigger problem than piracy itself in much of the console industry. You are right, second hand sales from gamestop for example are hurting the game companies. Hence why they want to get rid of gamestop and eventually get digital downloads straight from them. Here's the thing, you seem to want to justify piracy and say it's not that bad because second hand used games sales are worse. I'm not sitting on a high horse, but people trying to justify piracy and saying it's not THAT bad is just hilarious to me. I'm not trying to justify piracy at all. You seem to have mistaken me for someone else. The reason that second-hand sales are worse is that they actually represent a concrete SALE. Whereas not every pirated copy of a game represents the same. Used game sales absolutely do not represent a concrete sale. If someone buys a game for $15 you have no way of knowing whether they would have bought it for $50 if that was their only option. They may have simply opted to not buy the game or buy a different game. Also, the person who sold said used game might've used the money they got for the trade-in to purchase a new game themselves. In that scenario, used game sales increase new game sales. They absolutely DO represent a concrete sale. If the game is sold, it's a SALE. Naturally, because it's second-hand it's worth less than a brand new copy, but it is still a sale that the developer could have made potential profit off of. If Gamestop, for instance, weren't Gamestop, but was "The Nintendo Store" owned and operated by Nintendo, and people brought in their used games to trade for new games, and then Nintendo sold those second-hand games for $15, they'd be making a profit that they aren't currently making, because right now Gamestop makes that money.
I know HOW used games work. I'm just not convinced that if you took away used game sales, new sales would improve. I would argue they would actually get worse.
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On December 01 2011 05:23 jtype wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 05:17 jj33 wrote:On December 01 2011 05:09 Silidons wrote:On December 01 2011 05:01 jj33 wrote:On December 01 2011 04:57 Interloper wrote:On December 01 2011 04:54 jj33 wrote:
Alot of justification for pirating in here.
We live in a culture of something for nothing and me me me.
I love pc games and console games, but when I hear of PC elitists crying about how a game was developed mostly for console like skyrim and not tapping into the true potential of PC and how consoles are ruining pc gaming etc, that just makes me laugh.
More and more developers will primiarly develop for consoles, they want to make money not lose money.
Console games are pirated too. Pirated ALOT more than you think they are. I know they are, but there is a reason why alot of developers love consoles.I'm pretty sure they make more money on consoles than PC. There is a reason why skyrim was developed for 360 primarily and not PC. Because the graphics can look super shitty and way more people play console games? On December 01 2011 05:09 Interloper wrote:On December 01 2011 05:07 Silidons wrote:On December 01 2011 04:58 Myles wrote:On December 01 2011 04:56 Silidons wrote:On December 01 2011 04:53 Interloper wrote:On December 01 2011 04:47 Klondikebar wrote:On December 01 2011 04:44 jtype wrote:
OK, lets get this straight. To those of you who think piracy is harming the industry. Actually, let me rephrase that. To those of you who think piracy in no way helps the industry - Do you really think that if it was as clear cut as you think it is and every developer 'knew' that piracy was only bad for the industry and was ruining it, that we'd be able to pirate games at all?
Just throwing this out there, as I think too many people think this issue is more clear-cut than it is. Developers aren't the good guys and pirates aren't the bad guys. The reverse is also not true. Don't imagine that DRM is what you're told to believe it is. Don't imagine that piracy is what you've been taught to believe it is.
Personally, I buy my games, but I don't think that piracy the evil that some of you think it is and I don't think developers are stupid enough to think that either. It will be 100% impossible to pirate Diablo III since the entire game is emulated on the Blizzard servers. The only reason we've been able to pirate games up to this point is because developers and publishers haven't had the technology to keep us from doing so. They have the technology now. Impossible huh? I think you will be surprised... How many people played online SC2 without a key? A good amount. Pirate servers do exist. I'm talking about on the normal ladder. Not any private server. The correct answer is none. Well, "How many people played online SC2 without a key?" was your question. The answer is that some people did. And if it wasnt on the official servers, so what? It was still online with the same basic experience. Not all the features maybe, but it was still possible, and will be possible for D3 as well. I just rephrased my question that I posted a little above which was "How many people played the ladder on sc2 without a key?" If it wasn't on official servers...well then it's not even worth it to play much is it? How many people play WoW on private servers? A drop in a bucket compared to the real servers. Yes it's true way more people are on consoles. That is a big reason definitely, but the fact that pc games get pirated to hell is another reason they go console. Yes I know console games get pirated, but I'm pretty sure PC piracy still surpasses it. Oblivion got pirated badly when it came out on PC, pretty sure Bethesda took note of that was a big reason why they went 360 for primary development. No, I think developers primarily develop games on consoles because it's easier to create a simple, console-friendly interface and port it to the pc, than vice-versa. They may state pc piracy as their reason, but that's a different issue.
And as a recent example of Skyrim, PC scene has the right to hate the guts out of developers who take the lazy way around and simply do a shitty port over to PC from console when it comes to control scheme. How godawful UI and controls can you bear before you put your hands up and say this shit is enough?
Extremely laggy, unresponsive mouse control, UI menus clearly suited for pads, not mice and things like your mouse Y movement being dependant on your FPS, menu items not registering a mouse click over them, quality issues like this aren't really the thing to boost your sales >_>
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So many people here trying to justify stealing to ease their guilty minds. You are without permission, taking intellectual property that the owner intended to sell. If you don't have the money then you shouldn't have it.
We have access to gameplay footage on Youtube, tons of reviews, Blockbuster rentals, downloadable demos, and Gamefly. Don't tell me you don't know what game you're buying and need to just "test" it out via piracy (play the entire campaign). Same applies to music. Just because the song has the ability to be reproduced in a non-physical manner does not mean that you aren't stealing. They are SELLING entertainment. Are you not entertained?
Is it OK to walk into a movie theater and sample the first 30 minutes of the movie before you buy the ticket? Of course not.
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On December 01 2011 05:26 Serelitz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 05:07 jtype wrote:On December 01 2011 05:03 Serelitz wrote:On December 01 2011 04:48 HereAndNow wrote:On December 01 2011 04:45 Serelitz wrote:On December 01 2011 04:37 HereAndNow wrote:
They also knew that they weren't going to sell a full rule book to each player, and accounted for that. Same for DnD books. They expect you to buy your pieces for the full experience. I've been watching this discussion for a few pages now but I have to step in here and say - what makes you think this isn't being done for video games? High prices to compensate for lost sales I mean. Yeah, and I'd much prefer if my DnD DMG didn't cost an arm and a leg. Like I said in a previous post, if there were less pirates, there'd be lower prices, and less need for pirates. But no one wants to put up with the inbetween stage of buying games and proving to developers that they can actually lower the price and still make a profit. Again, an argument you can turn around - no developer wants to be at the inbetween stage of lowering their prices before increased sales either. Because actually, in pure business terms, paying 50$ for a game is basically proving that the game is worth 50$. No one in their right mind can truly believe that more people paying 50$ for a game is going to make developers decide to sell their next game for less that. Which is why not pirating and supporting a game will never make the price drop, whereas developers dropping the price will not necessarily lead to loss of income (due to an increase in sales). The problem here is that like all piracy arguments, it can't be quantified to any extent so the status quo will most likely be preserved (save for incredibly intrusive laws like SOPA/PIPA which I am against). Considering that the industry isn't exactly shrinking, I don't think the status quo right now is that bad.
Yea, exactly. And I've tried to make that point in various ways throughout this thread. I think you put it a bit better than I did though. 
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Guys, of course the 4.5 million pirated copies do not represent all the revenue lost. But that doesn't matter. I'm willing to bet the majority of these pirates never bought the real game. I'm also willing to bet that, no matter how many times you remind yourself that 4.5 million is not the true amount of copies worth of revenue lost, you cannot deny that 4.5 million is a big number. And that's all that matters. It's part of our subtler psychology, it's why products are always sold one cent below a dollar and why the "freemium" method is so good. Because there is an almost invisible, but incredibly strong influence on our perception of numbers that isn't always rational.
4.5 million may not be the actual number of copies that are owned but never bought, but it's the only number we have, and it's a big number. For the first RPG of its kind in a long time, and an absolutely AMAZING one at that, this is devastating.
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On December 01 2011 05:27 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 05:18 Nemireck wrote:On December 01 2011 05:15 Klondikebar wrote:On December 01 2011 05:12 Nemireck wrote:On December 01 2011 05:06 jj33 wrote:On December 01 2011 05:00 Nemireck wrote:On December 01 2011 04:57 Interloper wrote:On December 01 2011 04:54 jj33 wrote:
Alot of justification for pirating in here.
We live in a culture of something for nothing and me me me.
I love pc games and console games, but when I hear of PC elitists crying about how a game was developed mostly for console like skyrim and not tapping into the true potential of PC and how consoles are ruining pc gaming etc, that just makes me laugh.
More and more developers will primiarly develop for consoles, they want to make money not lose money.
Console games are pirated too. Pirated ALOT more than you think they are. Worse even, is the fact that every time a game is sold second-hand, it not only has the same affect as pirating the game, but someone else who ISN'T the game publisher/developer makes a profit off of it. It's considered an even bigger problem than piracy itself in much of the console industry. You are right, second hand sales from gamestop for example are hurting the game companies. Hence why they want to get rid of gamestop and eventually get digital downloads straight from them. Here's the thing, you seem to want to justify piracy and say it's not that bad because second hand used games sales are worse. I'm not sitting on a high horse, but people trying to justify piracy and saying it's not THAT bad is just hilarious to me. I'm not trying to justify piracy at all. You seem to have mistaken me for someone else. The reason that second-hand sales are worse is that they actually represent a concrete SALE. Whereas not every pirated copy of a game represents the same. Used game sales absolutely do not represent a concrete sale. If someone buys a game for $15 you have no way of knowing whether they would have bought it for $50 if that was their only option. They may have simply opted to not buy the game or buy a different game. Also, the person who sold said used game might've used the money they got for the trade-in to purchase a new game themselves. In that scenario, used game sales increase new game sales. They absolutely DO represent a concrete sale. If the game is sold, it's a SALE. Naturally, because it's second-hand it's worth less than a brand new copy, but it is still a sale that the developer could have made potential profit off of. If Gamestop, for instance, weren't Gamestop, but was "The Nintendo Store" owned and operated by Nintendo, and people brought in their used games to trade for new games, and then Nintendo sold those second-hand games for $15, they'd be making a profit that they aren't currently making, because right now Gamestop makes that money. I know HOW used games work. I'm just not convinced that if you took away used game sales, new sales would improve. I would argue they would actually get worse.
I'm not arguing that new sales would improve if used game sales were taken away. I'm arguing that developers deserve a cut of the second-hand sale.
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On December 01 2011 05:34 Nemireck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 05:27 Klondikebar wrote:On December 01 2011 05:18 Nemireck wrote:On December 01 2011 05:15 Klondikebar wrote:On December 01 2011 05:12 Nemireck wrote:On December 01 2011 05:06 jj33 wrote:On December 01 2011 05:00 Nemireck wrote:On December 01 2011 04:57 Interloper wrote:On December 01 2011 04:54 jj33 wrote:
Alot of justification for pirating in here.
We live in a culture of something for nothing and me me me.
I love pc games and console games, but when I hear of PC elitists crying about how a game was developed mostly for console like skyrim and not tapping into the true potential of PC and how consoles are ruining pc gaming etc, that just makes me laugh.
More and more developers will primiarly develop for consoles, they want to make money not lose money.
Console games are pirated too. Pirated ALOT more than you think they are. Worse even, is the fact that every time a game is sold second-hand, it not only has the same affect as pirating the game, but someone else who ISN'T the game publisher/developer makes a profit off of it. It's considered an even bigger problem than piracy itself in much of the console industry. You are right, second hand sales from gamestop for example are hurting the game companies. Hence why they want to get rid of gamestop and eventually get digital downloads straight from them. Here's the thing, you seem to want to justify piracy and say it's not that bad because second hand used games sales are worse. I'm not sitting on a high horse, but people trying to justify piracy and saying it's not THAT bad is just hilarious to me. I'm not trying to justify piracy at all. You seem to have mistaken me for someone else. The reason that second-hand sales are worse is that they actually represent a concrete SALE. Whereas not every pirated copy of a game represents the same. Used game sales absolutely do not represent a concrete sale. If someone buys a game for $15 you have no way of knowing whether they would have bought it for $50 if that was their only option. They may have simply opted to not buy the game or buy a different game. Also, the person who sold said used game might've used the money they got for the trade-in to purchase a new game themselves. In that scenario, used game sales increase new game sales. They absolutely DO represent a concrete sale. If the game is sold, it's a SALE. Naturally, because it's second-hand it's worth less than a brand new copy, but it is still a sale that the developer could have made potential profit off of. If Gamestop, for instance, weren't Gamestop, but was "The Nintendo Store" owned and operated by Nintendo, and people brought in their used games to trade for new games, and then Nintendo sold those second-hand games for $15, they'd be making a profit that they aren't currently making, because right now Gamestop makes that money. I know HOW used games work. I'm just not convinced that if you took away used game sales, new sales would improve. I would argue they would actually get worse. I'm not arguing that new sales would improve if used game sales were taken away. I'm arguing that developers deserve a cut of the second-hand sale.
Why? They didn't create anything new. They already got their payment with the original sale. Gamestop is the one who staffs the stores, rents the space to display/store the games, and bears all of the transaction costs for the used game sale.
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On December 01 2011 05:31 Karnage77 wrote:
So many people here trying to justify stealing to ease their guilty minds. You are without permission, taking intellectual property that the owner intended to sell. If you don't have the money then you shouldn't have it.
We have access to gameplay footage on Youtube, tons of reviews, Blockbuster rentals, downloadable demos, and Gamefly. Don't tell me you don't know what game you're buying and need to just "test" it out via piracy (play the entire campaign). Same applies to music. Just because the song has the ability to be reproduced in a non-physical manner does not mean that you aren't stealing. They are SELLING entertainment. Are you not entertained?
And there are so many people trying to defend companys who again and again make shitty content just for the sake of making money. Quality or happy customers are just a Bi-product in a best case scenario for these people. I do not understand how anyone can defend companys like Activision, Ubisoft or EA for all the shit they have pulled through the years. Piracy is the perfect method to tell a company to fuck off because it is the only way to target the only thing they care about, the money.
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On December 01 2011 05:23 jtype wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 05:17 jj33 wrote:On December 01 2011 05:09 Silidons wrote:On December 01 2011 05:01 jj33 wrote:On December 01 2011 04:57 Interloper wrote:On December 01 2011 04:54 jj33 wrote:
Alot of justification for pirating in here.
We live in a culture of something for nothing and me me me.
I love pc games and console games, but when I hear of PC elitists crying about how a game was developed mostly for console like skyrim and not tapping into the true potential of PC and how consoles are ruining pc gaming etc, that just makes me laugh.
More and more developers will primiarly develop for consoles, they want to make money not lose money.
Console games are pirated too. Pirated ALOT more than you think they are. I know they are, but there is a reason why alot of developers love consoles.I'm pretty sure they make more money on consoles than PC. There is a reason why skyrim was developed for 360 primarily and not PC. Because the graphics can look super shitty and way more people play console games? On December 01 2011 05:09 Interloper wrote:On December 01 2011 05:07 Silidons wrote:On December 01 2011 04:58 Myles wrote:On December 01 2011 04:56 Silidons wrote:On December 01 2011 04:53 Interloper wrote:On December 01 2011 04:47 Klondikebar wrote:On December 01 2011 04:44 jtype wrote:
OK, lets get this straight. To those of you who think piracy is harming the industry. Actually, let me rephrase that. To those of you who think piracy in no way helps the industry - Do you really think that if it was as clear cut as you think it is and every developer 'knew' that piracy was only bad for the industry and was ruining it, that we'd be able to pirate games at all?
Just throwing this out there, as I think too many people think this issue is more clear-cut than it is. Developers aren't the good guys and pirates aren't the bad guys. The reverse is also not true. Don't imagine that DRM is what you're told to believe it is. Don't imagine that piracy is what you've been taught to believe it is.
Personally, I buy my games, but I don't think that piracy the evil that some of you think it is and I don't think developers are stupid enough to think that either. It will be 100% impossible to pirate Diablo III since the entire game is emulated on the Blizzard servers. The only reason we've been able to pirate games up to this point is because developers and publishers haven't had the technology to keep us from doing so. They have the technology now. Impossible huh? I think you will be surprised... How many people played online SC2 without a key? A good amount. Pirate servers do exist. I'm talking about on the normal ladder. Not any private server. The correct answer is none. Well, "How many people played online SC2 without a key?" was your question. The answer is that some people did. And if it wasnt on the official servers, so what? It was still online with the same basic experience. Not all the features maybe, but it was still possible, and will be possible for D3 as well. I just rephrased my question that I posted a little above which was "How many people played the ladder on sc2 without a key?" If it wasn't on official servers...well then it's not even worth it to play much is it? How many people play WoW on private servers? A drop in a bucket compared to the real servers. Yes it's true way more people are on consoles. That is a big reason definitely, but the fact that pc games get pirated to hell is another reason they go console. Yes I know console games get pirated, but I'm pretty sure PC piracy still surpasses it. Oblivion got pirated badly when it came out on PC, pretty sure Bethesda took note of that was a big reason why they went 360 for primary development. No, I think developers primarily develop games on consoles because it's easier to create a simple, console-friendly interface and port it to the pc, than vice-versa. They may state pc piracy as their reason, but that's a different issue.
Developing for a console is simplier because the environment is defined and testing is simple. A console provides a set of developing tools and makes certain that they work on every one of the boxes out there. To test your stuff you just need one of the boxes. If the box gives trouble you go ask its single manufacturer.
Developing in e.g. Java is the same, and that's why Java is so popular. But PC has a much vaster landscape. For every chip in a PC there are at least several different manufacturers, each one has it quirks and many could act unexpectedly when combined with others in particular setup. Past the hardware there is an even more chaotic software level: many different operating systems, libraries, protocols and standards. Just finding out what of all this is responsible for a particular problem you're facing can be a daunting task.
If you develop for the xbox Microsoft tells you how to do things and if you have a problem you go ask Microsoft.
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On December 01 2011 05:39 Interloper wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 05:31 Karnage77 wrote:
So many people here trying to justify stealing to ease their guilty minds. You are without permission, taking intellectual property that the owner intended to sell. If you don't have the money then you shouldn't have it.
We have access to gameplay footage on Youtube, tons of reviews, Blockbuster rentals, downloadable demos, and Gamefly. Don't tell me you don't know what game you're buying and need to just "test" it out via piracy (play the entire campaign). Same applies to music. Just because the song has the ability to be reproduced in a non-physical manner does not mean that you aren't stealing. They are SELLING entertainment. Are you not entertained? And there are so many people trying to defend companys who again and again make shitty content just for the sake of making money. Quality or happy customers are just a Bi-product in a best case scenario for these people. I do not understand how anyone can defend companys like Activision, Ubisoft or EA for all the shit they have pulled through the years. Piracy is the perfect method to tell a company to fuck off because it is the only way to target the only thing they care about, the money.
that's a copout. if these game companies made the best game ever etc and did everything perfectly, people would still pirate the hell out of the games.
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United States7483 Posts
You know, this is really simple, and people really tend to overcomplicate this shit.
Is stealing bad: Yes or No. If Yes, then pirating is bad. If No, then pirating isn't bad.
Pirating is stealing, plain and simple. People keep making ridiculous arguments like "I couldn't afford to buy it anyway, so it isn't hurting them anyway for me to pirate it." Well guess what? When it comes to other goods, if you can't afford it, YOU DON'T BENEFIT FROM IT. When you pirate you're benefiting from someone's work and not giving them anything in exchange for their work, and it hurts innovation.
People deserve to benefit from their work, and the more their work is used, the more they deserve to benefit from it.
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