I dearly wish the discussion I was reading wasn't focused on Fox News or whether what the students were doing was illegal or not. Fox is a tabloid on television and any simpering fool that dislikes higher reasoning will find themselves in agreance with Fox 100% of the time. The protesters represent the opposite side of the political spectrum under the same ignorant power movement. The students were doing something illegal. Whether it should be illegal or shouldn't be illegal was not the reason for protest and they were rightfully arrested.
That, I wish dearly, could be agreed upon and moved on to the issue that is important to me: Did the police use exessive, even brutal force, without trying alternative measures with a more deft hand? If they did not- did they feel threatened? Were they in any danger from the protest? If they tried to move the students after arresting and handcuffing them, were they at risk?
If they were not in a reasonable amount of danger- the usage of pepper spray was as unlawful as the protest, violating their 8th Amendment Right?
To quote the reddit title and more importantly, the report by Nathan Brown of UC Davis, "When students covered their eyes with clothing, police forced open their mouths and pepper-sprayed down their throats.".
I easily contend that undue suffering, no, torture was the intent of the police officers arresting the students. Not only did this violate their Constitutional Rights, but it violated a host of other procedural and State ratified laws. I am not a legal expert. In fact I am a layman in every sense. I'm speaking from my emotions when I say this:
The arresting officers violated the law so grievously with their brutality that mere expulsion from their rank and job is not enough. They abused their power so heinously that they deserve fair and equal treatment. Prison.
This is my sincere belief. I am open to being disagreed with and more open to reading my opinions be refuted with legal or logical reasoning. I doubt any exist that I cannot denounce in turn.
ouch i hope their eyes are okay... just wondering though how much could really get in if their eyes were closed?
edit: after reading a lot more, i agree with probe1, this is fucking horrible it's supposed to minumum 15 feet but it was in their face and down their throat? it hought it was like, normal pepper spray
Also, permanentnly damaging (possibly) someone's wrist nerves? What the fuck are you kidding? Imagine if he was a piano performance major, in his fourth year, about to graduate. I guess he's just fucked for life =/
Also how the fuck can police officers be so violent. They were protesting non peacefully. It looks like a bunch of these police officers are corrupt with power and/or they (or at least the john pike guy) is a police officer not to just protect people and serve the law sincerely but to abuse power for satisfaction.
On November 27 2011 06:59 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: ouch i hope their eyes are okay... just wondering though how much could really get in if their eyes were closed?
edit: after reading a lot more, i agree with probe1, this is fucking horrible it's supposed to minumum 15 feet but it was in their face and down their throat? it hought it was like, normal pepper spray
Also, permanentnly damaging (possibly) someone's wrist nerves? What the fuck are you kidding? Imagine if he was a piano performance major, in his fourth year, about to graduate. I guess he's just fucked for life =/
Also how the fuck can police officers be so violent. They were protesting non peacefully. It looks like a bunch of these police officers are corrupt with power and/or they (or at least the john pike guy) is a police officer not to just protect people and serve the law sincerely but to abuse power for satisfaction.
In fact the 9th circuit court has ruled that at ranges of less than three feet, pepper spray is deadly force, on par with using a gun or striking the head or neck with a baton, unlike less than lethal force, such as using a taser or rubber bullets aimed at the body from a distance.
Well, after reading a bit more into the article and knowing a bit more about what exactly the police did, I'm supporting the protesters in this. Pepper spray at point blank range is bad enough, but maybe the cops were simply making a mistake, which should result in being taken off the force due to causing excessive harm to the students, however shooting it at their throats is something that is unjustifiable and unbelievably cruel. I agree with probe1, jail time is exactly what they need.
15 chronological minutes of what happened that day. Bias towards the police in the video, but after watching it I tend to agree. The police were far more reasonable than they originally appeared to be.
On November 27 2011 06:44 Probe1 wrote: I dearly wish the discussion I was reading wasn't focused on Fox News or whether what the students were doing was illegal or not. Fox is a tabloid on television and any simpering fool that dislikes higher reasoning will find themselves in agreance with Fox 100% of the time. The protesters represent the opposite side of the political spectrum under the same ignorant power movement. The students were doing something illegal. Whether it should be illegal or shouldn't be illegal was not the reason for protest and they were rightfully arrested.
That, I wish dearly, could be agreed upon and moved on to the issue that is important to me: Did the police use exessive, even brutal force, without trying alternative measures with a more deft hand? If they did not- did they feel threatened? Were they in any danger from the protest? If they tried to move the students after arresting and handcuffing them, were they at risk?
If they were not in a reasonable amount of danger- the usage of pepper spray was as unlawful as the protest, violating their 8th Amendment Right?
To quote the reddit title and more importantly, the report by Nathan Brown of UC Davis, "When students covered their eyes with clothing, police forced open their mouths and pepper-sprayed down their throats.".
I easily contend that undue suffering, no, torture was the intent of the police officers arresting the students. Not only did this violate their Constitutional Rights, but it violated a host of other procedural and State ratified laws. I am not a legal expert. In fact I am a layman in every sense. I'm speaking from my emotions when I say this:
The arresting officers violated the law so grievously with their brutality that mere expulsion from their rank and job is not enough. They abused their power so heinously that they deserve fair and equal treatment. Prison.
This is my sincere belief. I am open to being disagreed with and more open to reading my opinions be refuted with legal or logical reasoning. I doubt any exist that I cannot denounce in turn.
Obviously the police were far to physical than they should have been, but you post concerns me. When you say that all idiots are conservative, you risk people thinking that you dislike higher reasoning. Is Fox biased? Yes. Is every cable news station biased? absolutely. The point is that if you think that everyone who disagrees with you is an idiot, then you are, and nothing can be done to come to an understanding. I am very good friends with a communist and someone who watches Bill O'reilly every night. They are both intelligent, but they have different mindsets about humanity. Political extremism is actually not a bad thing as long as the holder of the extreme viewpoint be willing to have a frank discussion and be willing to change his views if proven incorrect.
On December 03 2011 12:27 dudeman001 wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhPdH3wE0_Y 15 chronological minutes of what happened that day. Bias towards the police in the video, but after watching it I tend to agree. The police were far more reasonable than they originally appeared to be.
What? That made them seem far more unreasonable to me. Before I was willing to give them some benefit of the doubt regarding the fact that they were in a hostile situation, but that video makes it clear that the protesters were not encroaching on them or behaving in any hostile fashion.
Yes the police officers should have been more responsible with the power and authority that they are given in responding to this protest. However I feel the protestors should be held to the same standard of being responsible with the use of their own rights. What they were doing was illegal. The police did what they could to resolve the situation without force but these kids weren't having it. It sounds completely backwards but I feel the protestors were in the wrong here, completely.
If you want to protest something there are ways to do it tactfully and legally. They could have easily moved when the police told them they were breaking the law. They didn't and now despite all their attempts to diffuse the situation without incident the police have to put up with the exaggerated cries of police brutality. Its a shame some people got pepper sprayed but it is their own fault.
Also I find it ridiculous they are even protesting the rising cost of education. If you want a pricey education man up and save or risk the loans. College is expensive and its not getting cheaper anytime soon. If they`re worried about not being able to afford tuition their time would have been better spent looking for jobs, applying for scholarships, or pretty much anything else besides essentially baiting "police brutality" and then crying about it.
This whole thing was completely unnecessary; a waste of time and pepper spray.
On December 03 2011 12:57 Azerbaijan wrote: Also I find it ridiculous they are even protesting the rising cost of education. If you want a pricey education man up and save or risk the loans. College is expensive and its not getting cheaper anytime soon. If they`re worried about not being able to afford tuition their time would have been better spent looking for jobs, applying for scholarships, or pretty much anything else besides essentially baiting "police brutality" and then crying about it.
This whole thing was completely unnecessary; a waste of time and pepper spray.
Right, because the amount of money your parents made during their lives should directly determine whether you are worthy of an education. Let's watch the rich get richer and the the poor get poorer. Long live the American Dream!
On December 03 2011 12:27 dudeman001 wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhPdH3wE0_Y 15 chronological minutes of what happened that day. Bias towards the police in the video, but after watching it I tend to agree. The police were far more reasonable than they originally appeared to be.
What? That made them seem far more unreasonable to me. Before I was willing to give them some benefit of the doubt regarding the fact that they were in a hostile situation, but that video makes it clear that the protesters were not encroaching on them or behaving in any hostile fashion.
did you even watch it? They clearly where advancing on the people who where arrested as the police attempted to leave. they moved like a mob clearly and then surrounded the cops.
The fact that they think the people will just be majestically set free in opposition to the law is laughable. They wouldn't allow the cops to leave. The guy who peper sprayed the people clearly went up to every single one of them and said that if they stayed they would be pepper sprayed. Notice they're "peaceful" shouting of fuck the police. They think its some type of funny joke that they are sitting there and not doing anything wrong. If any of them ANY of them would have left they would have had no problem. One of them says loudly lieing that the cop said that he was going to shoot him.
Yet another instance of people editing video to make their side look good and the other side look bad. The whole event is completely justified by this.
On December 03 2011 12:27 dudeman001 wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhPdH3wE0_Y 15 chronological minutes of what happened that day. Bias towards the police in the video, but after watching it I tend to agree. The police were far more reasonable than they originally appeared to be.
What? That made them seem far more unreasonable to me. Before I was willing to give them some benefit of the doubt regarding the fact that they were in a hostile situation, but that video makes it clear that the protesters were not encroaching on them or behaving in any hostile fashion.
did you even watch it? They clearly where advancing on the people who where arrested as the police attempted to leave. they moved like a mob clearly and then surrounded the cops.
The fact that they think the people will just be majestically set free in opposition to the law is laughable. They wouldn't allow the cops to leave. The guy who peper sprayed the people clearly went up to every single one of them and said that if they stayed they would be pepper sprayed. Notice they're "peaceful" shouting of fuck the police. They think its some type of funny joke that they are sitting there and not doing anything wrong. If any of them ANY of them would have left they would have had no problem. One of them says loudly lieing that the cop said that he was going to shoot him.
Yet another instance of people editing video to make their side look good and the other side look bad. The whole event is completely justified by this.
On December 03 2011 12:57 Azerbaijan wrote: Also I find it ridiculous they are even protesting the rising cost of education. If you want a pricey education man up and save or risk the loans. College is expensive and its not getting cheaper anytime soon. If they`re worried about not being able to afford tuition their time would have been better spent looking for jobs, applying for scholarships, or pretty much anything else besides essentially baiting "police brutality" and then crying about it.
This whole thing was completely unnecessary; a waste of time and pepper spray.
Right, because the amount of money your parents made during their lives should directly determine whether you are worthy of an education. Let's watch the rich get richer and the the poor get poorer. Long live the American Dream!
There are limitless ways to obtain a college education without needing wealthy parents. It makes absolutely zero sense to go to a college where tuition is $12,000 a semester and then protest the cost of your education. Again either save up, risk the loans, or settle for a less pricey institution. These occupy movements blow my mind; the argument boils down to "few people control of most the money, that's not fair, I want free money."
On December 03 2011 12:57 Azerbaijan wrote: Also I find it ridiculous they are even protesting the rising cost of education. If you want a pricey education man up and save or risk the loans. College is expensive and its not getting cheaper anytime soon. If they`re worried about not being able to afford tuition their time would have been better spent looking for jobs, applying for scholarships, or pretty much anything else besides essentially baiting "police brutality" and then crying about it.
This whole thing was completely unnecessary; a waste of time and pepper spray.
Right, because the amount of money your parents made during their lives should directly determine whether you are worthy of an education. Let's watch the rich get richer and the the poor get poorer. Long live the American Dream!
There are limitless ways to obtain a college education without needing wealthy parents. It makes absolutely zero sense to go to a college where tuition is $12,000 a semester and then protest the cost of your education. Again either save up, risk the loans, or settle for a less pricey institution. These occupy movements blow my mind; the argument boils down to "few people control of most the money, that's not fair, I want free money."
Actually, their argument goes down to "The system is unfairly stacked in favour of people who control most of the money."
On December 03 2011 12:57 Azerbaijan wrote: Also I find it ridiculous they are even protesting the rising cost of education. If you want a pricey education man up and save or risk the loans. College is expensive and its not getting cheaper anytime soon. If they`re worried about not being able to afford tuition their time would have been better spent looking for jobs, applying for scholarships, or pretty much anything else besides essentially baiting "police brutality" and then crying about it.
This whole thing was completely unnecessary; a waste of time and pepper spray.
Right, because the amount of money your parents made during their lives should directly determine whether you are worthy of an education. Let's watch the rich get richer and the the poor get poorer. Long live the American Dream!
There are limitless ways to obtain a college education without needing wealthy parents. It makes absolutely zero sense to go to a college where tuition is $12,000 a semester and then protest the cost of your education. Again either save up, risk the loans, or settle for a less pricey institution. These occupy movements blow my mind; the argument boils down to "few people control of most the money, that's not fair, I want free money."
Actually, their argument goes down to "The system is unfairly stacked in favour of people who control most of the money."
Same damn thing. few people control money who stack the system etc etc.
I won't comment on the morality, but I really feel bad for the cop. He isn't a malicious person. He clearly thought at the time that was the correct course of action. According to the Miami approach that is possibly justified under current police thought. Don't make the man out to be a monster: he is simply a man doing what guidelines tell him to.
And also, makes me annoyed when protesters whine and complain about how abused they are and yell obscenities at police. Then parallel themselves to ghandi. Who advocated being a nuisance, putting up with police brutality, not complaining, and being righteous and pure... I know it may not be effective in this case but stop drawing parallels darnit.
I would love to see some of the people in this thread pose as the police officers in a situation like this, with the actual officers involved posing as the "peaceful protestors". Fucking buffoons not knowing anything about appropriate usage of force would starve to death inside that circle of protestors.
On December 03 2011 12:57 Azerbaijan wrote: Also I find it ridiculous they are even protesting the rising cost of education. If you want a pricey education man up and save or risk the loans. College is expensive and its not getting cheaper anytime soon. If they`re worried about not being able to afford tuition their time would have been better spent looking for jobs, applying for scholarships, or pretty much anything else besides essentially baiting "police brutality" and then crying about it.
This whole thing was completely unnecessary; a waste of time and pepper spray.
Right, because the amount of money your parents made during their lives should directly determine whether you are worthy of an education. Let's watch the rich get richer and the the poor get poorer. Long live the American Dream!
There are limitless ways to obtain a college education without needing wealthy parents. It makes absolutely zero sense to go to a college where tuition is $12,000 a semester and then protest the cost of your education. Again either save up, risk the loans, or settle for a less pricey institution. These occupy movements blow my mind; the argument boils down to "few people control of most the money, that's not fair, I want free money."
Actually, their argument goes down to "The system is unfairly stacked in favour of people who control most of the money."
Same damn thing. few people control money who stack the system etc etc.
I won't comment on the morality, but I really feel bad for the cop. He isn't a malicious person. He clearly thought at the time that was the correct course of action. According to the Miami approach that is possibly justified under current police thought. Don't make the man out to be a monster: he is simply a man doing what guidelines tell him to.
And also, makes me annoyed when protesters whine and complain about how abused they are and yell obscenities at police. Then parallel themselves to ghandi. Who advocated being a nuisance, putting up with police brutality, not complaining, and being righteous and pure... I know it may not be effective in this case but stop drawing parallels darnit.
I agree 100% This type of protest can not be paralleled to Ghandi's approach in almost any sense. To really protest in that style, I would think you would simply not acknowledge validity of the injustice in question, state the non violent action you would and will take and protest, and dissemble if you could not do it peacefully. This was either a poorly organized attempt by some students, or a mob of bad apples decided to jump on the bandwagon. You really need a strong voice and strong leaders for any kind of non violent approach to protesting, and this protest clearly had neither.
Then again, they are just college students, and American culture is naturally pretty volatile in my opinion. I like the initiative these students took, but there execution was their downfall. The cops just did their job, and trying to act like the supposed "brutality" of these police reflects or is analogous to the hardship of the system they protest against, is very very self defeating.
One of Ghandi's many great quotes stated "An eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind." When protestors fight the injustice they see by immorally claiming "brutality", they fight against their own cause, and nothing is truly accomplished.
On December 03 2011 12:27 dudeman001 wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhPdH3wE0_Y 15 chronological minutes of what happened that day. Bias towards the police in the video, but after watching it I tend to agree. The police were far more reasonable than they originally appeared to be.
What? That made them seem far more unreasonable to me. Before I was willing to give them some benefit of the doubt regarding the fact that they were in a hostile situation, but that video makes it clear that the protesters were not encroaching on them or behaving in any hostile fashion.
did you even watch it? They clearly where advancing on the people who where arrested as the police attempted to leave. they moved like a mob clearly and then surrounded the cops.
The fact that they think the people will just be majestically set free in opposition to the law is laughable. They wouldn't allow the cops to leave. The guy who peper sprayed the people clearly went up to every single one of them and said that if they stayed they would be pepper sprayed. Notice they're "peaceful" shouting of fuck the police. They think its some type of funny joke that they are sitting there and not doing anything wrong. If any of them ANY of them would have left they would have had no problem. One of them says loudly lieing that the cop said that he was going to shoot him.
Yet another instance of people editing video to make their side look good and the other side look bad. The whole event is completely justified by this.
I don't know about it being completely justified by this but it has changed my opinion on the events somewhat. Not sure how I feel about it all now. Pepper-spraying, in a vacuum, is pretty fucked up and I think I still disagree with it's use here but the situation was not as cut-and-dry as it was made out to be.
On December 03 2011 12:57 Azerbaijan wrote: Also I find it ridiculous they are even protesting the rising cost of education. If you want a pricey education man up and save or risk the loans. College is expensive and its not getting cheaper anytime soon. If they`re worried about not being able to afford tuition their time would have been better spent looking for jobs, applying for scholarships, or pretty much anything else besides essentially baiting "police brutality" and then crying about it.
This whole thing was completely unnecessary; a waste of time and pepper spray.
Right, because the amount of money your parents made during their lives should directly determine whether you are worthy of an education. Let's watch the rich get richer and the the poor get poorer. Long live the American Dream!
There are limitless ways to obtain a college education without needing wealthy parents. It makes absolutely zero sense to go to a college where tuition is $12,000 a semester and then protest the cost of your education. Again either save up, risk the loans, or settle for a less pricey institution. These occupy movements blow my mind; the argument boils down to "few people control of most the money, that's not fair, I want free money."
Actually, their argument goes down to "The system is unfairly stacked in favour of people who control most of the money."
Same damn thing. few people control money who stack the system etc etc.
I won't comment on the morality, but I really feel bad for the cop. He isn't a malicious person. He clearly thought at the time that was the correct course of action. According to the Miami approach that is possibly justified under current police thought. Don't make the man out to be a monster: he is simply a man doing what guidelines tell him to.
Following orders is not a morally acceptable defense.
On December 03 2011 12:57 Azerbaijan wrote: Also I find it ridiculous they are even protesting the rising cost of education. If you want a pricey education man up and save or risk the loans. College is expensive and its not getting cheaper anytime soon. If they`re worried about not being able to afford tuition their time would have been better spent looking for jobs, applying for scholarships, or pretty much anything else besides essentially baiting "police brutality" and then crying about it.
This whole thing was completely unnecessary; a waste of time and pepper spray.
Right, because the amount of money your parents made during their lives should directly determine whether you are worthy of an education. Let's watch the rich get richer and the the poor get poorer. Long live the American Dream!
There are limitless ways to obtain a college education without needing wealthy parents. It makes absolutely zero sense to go to a college where tuition is $12,000 a semester and then protest the cost of your education. Again either save up, risk the loans, or settle for a less pricey institution. These occupy movements blow my mind; the argument boils down to "few people control of most the money, that's not fair, I want free money."
Actually, their argument goes down to "The system is unfairly stacked in favour of people who control most of the money."
Same damn thing. few people control money who stack the system etc etc.
I won't comment on the morality, but I really feel bad for the cop. He isn't a malicious person. He clearly thought at the time that was the correct course of action. According to the Miami approach that is possibly justified under current police thought. Don't make the man out to be a monster: he is simply a man doing what guidelines tell him to.
Following orders is not a morally acceptable defense.
But morally is surrounding police and telling them they can't leave acceptable?
I'm just saying: the man is not inherently evil. But is it morally incorrect to pepper spray those trying to obstruct the arrest of others?
EPT
