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On October 22 2011 16:31 arbitrageur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 02:01 Josri wrote:
Fucking finally, you had no business there except for removing a dictator and installing democracy.
Does Iraq have a democracy yet?
As to the removing dictators, the world has plenty of them. Have you ever considered asking yourself why the "good" guys don't see fit to remove them from power? It's oil. The other dictators don't matter because they aren't sitting on it.
You write a whole tin can spoof but your own answers are about as shallow as a bottletop with that much content to boot.
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On October 22 2011 23:47 Chanted wrote:
Well, I think if the situation in Iraq is stable enough, then pulling out might be a good idea. I just hope that the new government is strong enough.
Usa has more then enough problems to fix at home, so if they could cut down some on military spendings, they could fix some of those.
I (and probably most europeans) hope that the democrats stay in power.
There are no democrats and there is no democracy. Just a corrupt US puppet regime. The only people that profited in any way are the kurds, who have relativly much autonomy and a relativly stable (local) government. But the government of the Iraqi Nation is shit and corrupt to the bone.
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Russian Federation1849 Posts
On October 22 2011 02:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Hahahaha sigh. I'm pretty sure if Obama wants any chance of winning the election, he won't talk about invading any other countries for a while.
Im interested had any american politic used the term "invasion" for those past wars US has created? It was all for saving the innocent, right?
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So.... When are we leaving Afghanistan?
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On October 23 2011 00:02 Hemula wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 02:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On October 22 2011 02:06 VALERO_ wrote:
we're preparing 4 iran LOL Hahahaha sigh. I'm pretty sure if Obama wants any chance of winning the election, he won't talk about invading any other countries for a while. Im interested had any american politic used the term "invasion" for those past wars US has created? It was all for saving the innocent, right?
I wouldn't say that you never hear the word invasion, especially from those on the left. Our media isn't as censored/bias as you might think.
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On October 22 2011 02:08 Silidons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 02:03 Kazuo wrote:
Let's just see if it actually happens... I'm pretty skeptical with the new HotS units and our Iraqi removal being announced on the same day...
ITS A TRAP
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On October 22 2011 17:17 OsoVega wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 17:11 Senorcuidado wrote:On October 22 2011 16:58 OsoVega wrote:On October 22 2011 16:47 Senorcuidado wrote:On October 22 2011 16:39 OsoVega wrote:On October 22 2011 16:36 Senorcuidado wrote:On October 22 2011 16:31 OsoVega wrote:On October 22 2011 16:15 Senorcuidado wrote:On October 22 2011 16:00 OsoVega wrote:On October 22 2011 15:51 Senorcuidado wrote:
[quote]
Oh my, and here we thought that we were trying to stop Saddam from getting WMD's or something...
And now it's because of how he treated his people??? Where was the U.S. for decades prior with the moral outrage? Oh yeah, we were giving him more weapons.
I'll just re-quote the most important part of your argument, which summarizes your ethic:
[quote]
Anything self-interested is morally justified. Got it. You're misunderstanding me. The justification, not the reason, was that his regime was an initiator of force. The reason given was WMDs. Anything self-interested is morally justified. Got it. This is completely unfair and a huge leap in logic. Nothing about my post indicates that that is what I believe. The invasion of Iraq would have been morally justified had it been self interested but it wasn't so it was not. My moral objection with the Iraq war is that it was self destructive. It's not that no other moral objections exist, it's that no other moral objections apply. Okay. The "reason" given was a series of intentional lies. The "justification" is inconsistent and self serving. Really, it's solely a matter of convenience. We didn't give two shits about Saddam's abuse toward his people while we were supporting him. He did not initiate force in 2003. I actually misunderstood your argument about anything self-interested being morally justified. Although to my knowledge you still stand by your stance that the world court is irrelevant if it contradicts our interests, so it seems that at the end of the day self-interest is the only justification necessary. Your only moral objection that applies is that the war was not self-interested. I, however, have a few moral objections that I think apply. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_WarPlus, you know, all the torture. "The major virtues tend to disintegrate under the pressures of convenient rationalization. But good form is good form, and it stands immutable in the storm of circumstance."
-Shibumi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War The responsibility of the force initiating state. Plus, you know, all the torture. Just because the UN says it is always a violation of human rights doesn't make them right. When you fight for a force initiating, rights violating state you give up your rights. Just so we're clear about your positions: The world court doesn't matter if the U.S. disagrees. International law doesn't matter if the U.S. disagrees. Torture is fine if the U.S. decides it is. Any initiation of force against another country by a dictator gives the U.S. justification to indiscriminately kill civilians of the aggressor country. And we still haven't established how Saddam "initiated force" in 2003. We have established that the "reasons" given for invading Iraq (WMD's) were intentional lies. Maybe Saddam planned 9/11? Why not. If the U.S. says he did, who can disagree? The world court doesn't matter if it is wrong. International law doesn't matter if it is wrong. Torture is fine if it is done against those who have forfeited their rights by initiating force directly or indirectly in a serious way. Any initiation of force against another country by a dictator gives the U.S. justification to indiscriminately kill civilians of the aggressor country. I've already stated the ways in which Saddam initiated force. Go back and read my posts. Stop trying to act like I treat the words of the US as dogma. Okay, we have established your principles. I think they speak for themselves. Under these principles I don't see anything to stop the U.S. from doing whatever it wants to whomever it wants for whatever reasons it wants, as long as it decides that everyone who disagrees is "wrong". You haven't adequately supported your case for how Saddam initiated force in 2003. As I said, the "reasons" were intentional lies and the "justification" that you promoted is inconsistent, self-serving, and a matter of political convenience. It's not about "deciding" what is wrong. It's about what is wrong. Do you believe that A is A, that existence exists, that red is not blue, that right is not wrong? If you can not realize that there are objective truths in this universe, you have little hope. Some arbitrary date does not matter. It was the same government. Even under your circumstances Saddam was in fact a dictator in 2003. Well, I'm going to take Subversive's advice and stop responding. Your arguments have become very hollow and I don't even need to pick at them anymore to discredit them. They speak for themselves. Your values are obviously quite unique, and I won't try to convince you to change them. I'm off to bed  My arguments haven't changed. Tell me how my arguments are hollow. My values are that of a man who desires a happy life on earth, reason, purpose and self-esteem. Reason as my only tool for knowledge. Purpose, as my choice of the happiness which that tool must proceed to achieve. Self-esteem, as my certainty that my mind is competent and that I am worthy of happiness on earth.
You're basically going no where because you set yourself up as the main character in the story of life and all of us are mere extras and side characters that are always wrong if you say otherwise.
You have this really weird self righteous attitude that makes you a complete pseudo intellectual because you present your arguments as unfalsifiable to begin with.
I'm an American and you make me fucking sick. You act as if our country did nothing wrong when invading and destroying a country that had NOTHING to do with 9/11 and was never a threat to us to begin with.
Look up America's decisions to go into countries after WWII.
Everything from operation ajax (over throwing the legitimate leader of Iran) to the CIA operations in Latin and South American from the 80s to the 90s.
You know what you'll learn after reading about some of this? It's that America likes dictators, we didn't go into Iraq because he was a dictator or because he was this, "Initiator of force". If this were the case America would've invaded North Korea and various 3rd world states already.
By your own retarded definition of "Initiator of force" we actually would've been in North Korea by now considering he oppresses his people, starts random fights along the DMZ (There was a major bombardment that killed South Korean Marines on an island near the DMZ as well as an alleged naval attack by submarine)
We go to war with countries when ideal political and economic interests line up not because of some arbitrary moral standard that when crossed causes Americans to go full Merikan and declare war.
Get over yourself, your historical view on the Iraq war and this country is one that even Fox news doesn't endorse anymore because of how many times it has been refuted and how flat out inaccurate it is.
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United States1072 Posts
I've been in Iraq since February, I am pretty stoked that I will be home before the holidays to hang out with my families and friends.
It's good that U.S. American troops are leaving Iraq, but in a couple of years Iraq will be like Germany, Korea and other countries the US has been in.
Even though we are leaving Iraq, there are still private contractors hired by the department of state to assist them with there work to "advise" and "assist" with the Iraqi government and army. So hopefully their government is going to be stabled.
Since I'm a U.S. Soldier, I can't really openly say anything else.
Also the cool thing is, my company is the last to leave Iraq :D! Gonna be the highlight of my life.
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On October 23 2011 04:35 FraCuS wrote:
I've been in Iraq since February, I am pretty stoked that I will be home before the holidays to hang out with my families and friends.
It's good that U.S. American troops are leaving Iraq, but in a couple of years Iraq will be like Germany, Korea and other countries the US has been in.
Even though we are leaving Iraq, there are still private contractors hired by the department of state to assist them with there work to "advise" and "assist" with the Iraqi government and army. So hopefully their government is going to be stabled.
Since I'm a U.S. Soldier, I can't really openly say anything else.
Also the cool thing is, my company is the last to leave Iraq :D! Gonna be the highlight of my life.
I'm excited to see a blog with pictures showcasing the excitement =]
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United States1072 Posts
On October 23 2011 04:37 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 04:35 FraCuS wrote:
I've been in Iraq since February, I am pretty stoked that I will be home before the holidays to hang out with my families and friends.
It's good that U.S. American troops are leaving Iraq, but in a couple of years Iraq will be like Germany, Korea and other countries the US has been in.
Even though we are leaving Iraq, there are still private contractors hired by the department of state to assist them with there work to "advise" and "assist" with the Iraqi government and army. So hopefully their government is going to be stabled.
Since I'm a U.S. Soldier, I can't really openly say anything else.
Also the cool thing is, my company is the last to leave Iraq :D! Gonna be the highlight of my life. I'm excited to see a blog with pictures showcasing the excitement =]
It's coming for sure =]
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I don't have any comment other than "I don't understand how you can just announce this kind of thing to the universe at large."
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I love how everyone here is a godamned expert on the current status of the Iraqi government and security forces.
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On October 23 2011 14:40 Bibdy wrote:
I love how everyone here is a godamned expert on the current status of the Iraqi government and security forces.
You don't have to be an expert.
I have friends in Iraq and I watch the news. The place is largely as dangerous today as it was last year, the year before, the year before that, the year before that. When America pulls out, the chances of huge sectarian violence are pretty high by all accounts, and I see no reason why the groups which have continued to oppose the new Iraqi government and governance system would not continue to do so.
In terms of democracy, a huge amount of candidates were banned from the 2010 election, including major party leaders. If you think it's just people who have a vested interest in saying it's not a real democracy lying to you, consider the fact that even US Ambassador stated that the elections weren't credible. Couple that with the violence on election day with hundreds dying and huge amounts of threats and you don't have a genuine democracy even with the huge American military presence and pressure they can place on the Iraqi government.
If you think that a democracy will somehow start to flourish and become genuine after America has left then you're far more optimistic than I am or than history would suggest is remotely sensible. There really is no reason to view Iraq's future positively - it may settle down into a relatively stable pseudo-democracy, but to think it's going to be a great place noticeably improved is just refusing to look at facts.
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On October 23 2011 04:35 FraCuS wrote:
I've been in Iraq since February, I am pretty stoked that I will be home before the holidays to hang out with my families and friends.
It's good that U.S. American troops are leaving Iraq, but in a couple of years Iraq will be like Germany, Korea and other countries the US has been in.
Even though we are leaving Iraq, there are still private contractors hired by the department of state to assist them with there work to "advise" and "assist" with the Iraqi government and army. So hopefully their government is going to be stabled.
Since I'm a U.S. Soldier, I can't really openly say anything else.
Also the cool thing is, my company is the last to leave Iraq :D! Gonna be the highlight of my life.
Have a nice trip back. Hopefully you're not sent off to any more damned wars during the remainder of your service. 
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On October 23 2011 16:37 FuzzyJAM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 14:40 Bibdy wrote:
I love how everyone here is a godamned expert on the current status of the Iraqi government and security forces. You don't have to be an expert. I have friends in Iraq and I watch the news. The place is largely as dangerous today as it was last year, the year before, the year before that, the year before that. When America pulls out, the chances of huge sectarian violence are pretty high by all accounts, and I see no reason why the groups which have continued to oppose the new Iraqi government and governance system would not continue to do so.
Well I just had to point out how wrong you are. Iraq is much safer than it used to be a few years ago, and though there are still frequent bombings, its no where near as bad as it was around 2006. And I'm not saying this cause I have "Iraqi friends", but because I'm an Iraqi myself and my father has recently started working in Iraq. In the all time he spent in Iraq, near the Al-Basra area, he never once heard a bomb go off AND never heard gunshots. That's not to say it doesn't happen anymore, on the contrary he visted a place that was bombed 1 hour after he left, but it shows its no were as frequent as it was before.
What many people don't understand about Iraq is how much business there is there. Any Iraqi engineer who wants a job will be picked up in a heart beat. The Iraqi government won't issue easy visas to foreigners so the jobs stay mainly for the Iraqi people. Its not like the Iraqis need the Americans anymore, we are (almost) self-sufficient. Many people who think that Iraq will pick up Sharia law (lol) honestly have no clue at what is really happening in Iraq, and don't understand the current state of the government.
On the topic of the Americans leaving, I know not one single Iraqi who has ever welcomed the American presence in Iraq (to put it lightly). If you ask people in Arabic what they think about the Americans leaving, they will tell you its about time the OCCUPATION is over. Even people who's relatives have been killed/tortured by Saddam are happy to see the Americans go.
Sorry if my points have been mentioned before, I didn't read the whole thread just skimmed through it and wanted to give my point of view.
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On October 23 2011 17:10 Bessey wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 16:37 FuzzyJAM wrote:On October 23 2011 14:40 Bibdy wrote:
I love how everyone here is a godamned expert on the current status of the Iraqi government and security forces. You don't have to be an expert. I have friends in Iraq and I watch the news. The place is largely as dangerous today as it was last year, the year before, the year before that, the year before that. When America pulls out, the chances of huge sectarian violence are pretty high by all accounts, and I see no reason why the groups which have continued to oppose the new Iraqi government and governance system would not continue to do so. Well I just had to point out how wrong you are. Iraq is much safer than it used to be a few years ago, and though there are still frequent bombings, its no where near as bad as it was around 2006. And I'm not saying this cause I have "Iraqi friends", but because I'm an Iraqi myself and my father has recently started working in Iraq. In the all time he spent in Iraq, near the Al-Basra area, he never once heard a bomb go off AND never heard gunshots. That's not to say it doesn't happen anymore, on the contrary he visted a place that was bombed 1 hour after he left, but it shows its no were as frequent as it was before.
You're right. It was about 2006-2007ish that the violence reached its peak and after cooling down it's stayed roughly the same since, which is exactly what I said. I think it's something like 5 deaths/day and 4 terrorist attacks/day now, though I could be a little off on that. Obviously the country is big so the level of violence you'll be exposed to depends on the area you're in, but I'd say that number of terrorist attacks and deaths is pretty high and, with 30,000 troops leaving, I think it's highly likely that it will get worse.
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Finaly. Was an illegal war anyway. Very happy for the american soldiers and there family.
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United States1072 Posts
On October 23 2011 16:54 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 04:35 FraCuS wrote:
I've been in Iraq since February, I am pretty stoked that I will be home before the holidays to hang out with my families and friends.
It's good that U.S. American troops are leaving Iraq, but in a couple of years Iraq will be like Germany, Korea and other countries the US has been in.
Even though we are leaving Iraq, there are still private contractors hired by the department of state to assist them with there work to "advise" and "assist" with the Iraqi government and army. So hopefully their government is going to be stabled.
Since I'm a U.S. Soldier, I can't really openly say anything else.
Also the cool thing is, my company is the last to leave Iraq :D! Gonna be the highlight of my life. Have a nice trip back. Hopefully you're not sent off to any more damned wars during the remainder of your service.
Thank you I appreciate it! Since my job is Infantry Mortarman, the possibility of me deploying to Afghanistan is high. :[ Good thing is my contract is done by the time I deploy to Afghanistan.
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Guess the oil pipeline is finally done...pfff
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Good for you (americans)! It was probably getting pretty expensive.
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EPT
