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Funny how the whole thread has been derailed into a debate about racism. There was a riot in the village where it first started, the houses of wealthy gypsy family members were burned, the close friend of the gypsy boss who murdered the boy, hid away in his mansion.
When people stormed in and set the place on fire, the police provided refuge for them because the gypsy boss was a member of the ruling government. The nation-wide protests are because they are fed up with the corruption and seek justice for the death of the young boy.
Yes, there is no surprise that a gypsy was behind yet another crime.
No, this thread should not be derailed of whether or not gypsies should be deported, killed off, or any other sort of stupid comments. Although i'm surprised that this sort of thing needed to happen for people to realize how bad it is here.
We've been coping for decades basically.
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The problems with the gypsies are merely a symptom of the broken social and justice system in Bulgaria, they are not the cause of it. The general sleaze and corruption is prevalent in all aspects of society, enabling and reinforcing all kinds of anti-social behavior--it is only natural that gypsies have become more and more aggressive.
The gypsies in this story are simple opportunists, preying on the collapsed society that has created them. Focusing solely on them could not solve the problem, it's the system that has allowed them to become what they are that needs changing.
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OK, maybe I don't know much about the problem, since clearly I have never dealt with gypsies. I guess I will let the Europeans figure out if the ideas being thrown around in this thread are racist or not. Have a good day
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On September 28 2011 00:05 drdreggor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 23:25 vanhio wrote:
But when some of the gypsies refuse to work and are criminals, that isn't racism, that is being USELESS to society.
90% of them refuse to work and the only thing they do is stealing. People who wants only privilegs and no responsibilities are plague to society. Most of them are not paying their bills and still gets water and electricity. Free water and electricity sounds cool right ? Who do you think pays for all of this ? Who do you think pays child support to every 15 years old gipsy girl with 3 childrens ? People here are sick and tired of this SHIT ! Aaaaaaand here we go again. What the FUCK do you know about how many gypsies that won't work? Where do you get your info? Probably from what you believe and have experienced, and various influences such as media and/or friends. You are making assumptions based on NOTHIN except personal experience and that is not enough to justify expelling a large number of humans, as some of you here sometimes forget the gypsies are.
Well, all-knowing guy who lives in a different world let me tell you this. You don`t live here. You don`t where these gypsies live. You don`t see how many of them are going to school. You don`t KNOW how many of them are in JAIL. You don`t know SHIT to be fair. And not writing these posts to CONVINCE somebody that bulgarian gypsies are bad etc.. We know what they are. WE LIVE WITH THEM, UNLIKE YOU. Feel free to come here and see with your own eyes.
Edit: I don`t think i need EXACT numbers cuz i live here for 25 years and MAYBE i have an idea how things are...
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lol yes because there are no Roma in the United States.
Can't you see why the rest of us are having trouble with relating to your problems when you come across so insisting and authoritative on everything gypsy?
Edit:
Estimated Roma population of US- 50k
Estimated Roma population of Bulgaria- 75k
:\ and thieving gypsys are like the very least of our social problems.
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On September 27 2011 22:31 Kukaracha wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 22:26 Zechs wrote:
Incidentally, it didn't take long for Godwin's Law to come into effect in this thread did it? Laugh all you want, extremism is rising in Europe, again. Not the same scapegoats, but you can't fool people THAT easily, no, you need another toy.
Well it's the exact same scapegoat for crying out loud.
The only thing I've got confirmed from this thread (that was supposed to be about a fucking riot) is that racism in Europe is reaching ridiculous levels.
When people start talking about exterminating all gypsies, you start wondering what century you live in.
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Euronyme there have been a lot of prejudicial things said in this thread but I dare you to find one quote of someone suggesting extermination.
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On September 28 2011 00:32 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 22:31 Kukaracha wrote:On September 27 2011 22:26 Zechs wrote:
Incidentally, it didn't take long for Godwin's Law to come into effect in this thread did it? Laugh all you want, extremism is rising in Europe, again. Not the same scapegoats, but you can't fool people THAT easily, no, you need another toy. Well it's the exact same scapegoat for crying out loud. The only thing I've got confirmed from this thread (that was supposed to be about a fucking riot) is that racism in Europe is reaching ridiculous levels. When people start talking about exterminating all gypsies, you start wondering what century you live in.
maybe in that case, the modern thinking and morally developed Sweden could give a helping hand for this poor, criminalized and desperate people who live in injustice.... oh wait..... you sent them back from Malmö already.
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First of all about the gypsy problem - people (especially ones from the US) seem to have their minds set, that every time a culture is being criticized, it's racism. I don't know what they teach you guys in schools, but it's certainly not using your brain on that topic. I've even gotten banned from this forum for saying stuff like that but ... meh ...
Europeans who write here aren't saying that gypsy blood makes gypsies what they are. A minimal percentage of them can live a different life. We're against gypsy culture - their language has one word for "slave" and "foreigner. The same way Korean has one word for "newbie" and "foreigner". Back on gypsies - what I saw earlier in the thread about "being awful towards their own children" isn't half as brutal as what I've seen - a mother throwing her 3~4 year old kid in front of a car driving @ about 40km/h so that she can sue the driver. Gypsies are way more racist than any of the people who wrote here, it's some kind of religion to them to "plague the lands" so to speak, and once again - this is part of their CULTURE, not their blood. It's funny how years back there was one gypsy guy, a surgeon, who was shown by all the media as the messiah, the sparkling example of the hard working gypsy. Guess what - he got caught for racketing sick people for money or he'd sabotage their operations. Media here haven't found another educated gypsy since then ...
But all of the above is off-topic (well. the whole thread is off-topic so I guess that's fine). But let me tell you what actually happened in Bulgaria, because people have the wrong idea about it. First of all, the gypsy problem in Bulgaria is probably bigger here than in any other country. The reason - the government supports it. Gypsies actually have more rights than Bulgarians, and this isn't about to change, as they are the perfect uneducated people that any politician who wants power dreams of. When it's time for elections, a gypsy vote costs - 3 meatballs (THIS IS NOT AN EXAGGERATION). Gypsies have their leaders (people like the man who ordered the murder this topic is about). These people are allowed to do whatever crimes they want, in exchange for telling gypsies that a genocide on them is imminent if they don't vote. The boy that got killed is one who was a victim of one of their previous crimes as the court would never do anything to Rashkov, they suspected he'd try another type of revenge, so they killed him. The riots started off as protests against the family, against the current Bulgarian politicians, who support this family. It wasn't about their gypsy blood. But the media owned by Rupert Murdoc purposely tries to mislead people, as they are paid by the current government, the problem is that this is so obvious now that even the most foolish amongst people wouldn't bite it this time (the words of the awarded "#1 Bulgarian Reporter" were "Some nazi drug-addicts and football hooligans want genocide against the gypsies"). Well that wasn't the case, even though for every 1000 people who only want justice, you'd find 10 or 20 mad nazi kids. But that's inevitable in any society I guess, there's just dumb people anyway ...
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On September 28 2011 00:01 Maenander wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 23:45 Fenrax wrote:
Many truths about race and demography are inconvenient. If reality is not like it should be in theory then the theory is wrong and not the reality. Of course it is wrong to assume that stereotypes are never based on statistical facts. That doesn't mean that categorizing people by their heritage is ok, on the contrary, it will only aggravate already existing problems. Saying racism has nothing to do with this discussion is obviously absurd, despite a lot of intelligent people in this thread stating just that. As soon as individuals are judged based on their cultural and ethnical background, which I am sure happens to gypsies in europe a lot, it is racism. It must be very hard to escape a way of life that you have been brought up with if outsiders immediately identify you with it.
Actually roma (see when you call them gypsies you are being racist according to the lawsuits they filed with the court in Hague) are juged in europe by what they do. And what they mostly do (I've never met an honest one in 20 years of living there) is steal, assault and beg for money (and funny enough, they somehow have more money then the rest of us poor saps).
The communist government wanted to get rid of them, so they gave them free food, clothing and places to live. The roma chose to not take advantage of any of these. I have had 5 roma kids in my grade school classes. None of them was allowed to finish anything more than 6th grade. Their parrents took them out of school and who knows what they made them do after.
These are not some insignificant special cases that people talk about. Talk to any romanian and they will have at least a story like this one.
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n00b3rt it reads like all 10 of the kids are posting in this thread~
Post a fuckin solution instead of blanketing every single person of one group as murderous leeches.
Also most of the people using the word racist are English as a second language users. Note my repeated use of bigot.
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9070 Posts
While there's tension in Bulgaria and the gypsies are a sensitive social topic, the demos in all big cities as well as the overwhelming public reaction about the murder are not ethnic or directed against a minority, but against a mafia boss, who's doings went unpunished for more than 20 years.
I feel really disturbed how the situation is abused by extreme political parties, seeking more public exposure by promoting racistic statements and provoking acts of violence against a minority.
What makes matters worse thou is that elections take place next month.
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On September 28 2011 00:34 Probe1 wrote:
Euronyme there have been a lot of prejudicial things said in this thread but I dare you to find one quote of someone suggesting extermination.
It was on the front page.
On September 27 2011 21:26 aTnClouD wrote:
tbh the only way of dealing with the gypsies problem is becoming a terrorist and kill as many as you can. if you drive them out of your country they will inevitably plague another place and it's a culture that is not really fit for living along with any other.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On September 28 2011 00:32 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 22:31 Kukaracha wrote:On September 27 2011 22:26 Zechs wrote:
Incidentally, it didn't take long for Godwin's Law to come into effect in this thread did it? Laugh all you want, extremism is rising in Europe, again. Not the same scapegoats, but you can't fool people THAT easily, no, you need another toy. Well it's the exact same scapegoat for crying out loud. The only thing I've got confirmed from this thread (that was supposed to be about a fucking riot) is that racism in Europe is reaching ridiculous levels. When people start talking about exterminating all gypsies, you start wondering what century you live in.
This picture is painted by the people that were most affected by the problem. Wouldn't you have a bad opinion of any minority that directly harms your community? Most posts, including mine, try to portray this problem for what it really is, whole groups of people living anywhere they please, even if it's privately owned land, refusing help that has been offered them, living off illegal means like stealing and refusing to at least give their children an opportunity to live a decent life.
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On September 28 2011 00:39 Probe1 wrote:
n00b3rt it reads like all 10 of the kids are posting in this thread~
Post a fuckin solution instead of blanketing every single person of one group as murderous leeches.
Also most of the people using the word racist are English as a second language users. Note my repeated use of bigot.
When the government needs gipsy votes because they are easy to buy, what is the solution ? You tell me man.
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On September 28 2011 00:26 vanhio wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 00:05 drdreggor wrote:On September 27 2011 23:25 vanhio wrote:
But when some of the gypsies refuse to work and are criminals, that isn't racism, that is being USELESS to society.
90% of them refuse to work and the only thing they do is stealing. People who wants only privilegs and no responsibilities are plague to society. Most of them are not paying their bills and still gets water and electricity. Free water and electricity sounds cool right ? Who do you think pays for all of this ? Who do you think pays child support to every 15 years old gipsy girl with 3 childrens ? People here are sick and tired of this SHIT ! Aaaaaaand here we go again. What the FUCK do you know about how many gypsies that won't work? Where do you get your info? Probably from what you believe and have experienced, and various influences such as media and/or friends. You are making assumptions based on NOTHIN except personal experience and that is not enough to justify expelling a large number of humans, as some of you here sometimes forget the gypsies are. Well, all-knowing guy who lives in a different world let me tell you this. You don`t live here. You don`t where these gypsies live. You don`t see how many of them are going to school. You don`t KNOW how many of them are in JAIL. You don`t know SHIT to be fair. And not writing these posts to CONVINCE somebody that bulgarian gypsies are bad etc.. We know what they are. WE LIVE WITH THEM, UNLIKE YOU. Feel free to come here and see with your own eyes. Edit: I don`t think i need EXACT numbers cuz i live here for 25 years and MAYBE i have an idea how things are...
I'm not making wild assumptions though about how 90% of them refuse to work, that's what I'm criticizing; you stating things as facts when you in fact really can't back it up. I'm not claiming to know how the situation actually is, like you are.
And you say you live with them blabla, and think that your opinion therefore can be applied to an entire population, well guess what, your opinion doesn't matter on a larger scale unless you can actively back it up.
Instead of condemning Gypsies, why aren't you condemning all people who murder, rape etc. You don't know any of these numbers, neither do I; but you are acting like you're the one sitting on the truths.
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And another thing to note is that the people who are calling Easter Europeans racists, are from countries that, funny enough, have already expulsed the roma from their lands (Sweeden, US, Canada, France, England) be it overtly or covertly (like the US and Canada and their simple denial of visas to 99% of roma applicants).
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"What do I want with a caravan that's got no fockin' wheels?!" Mickey(Brad Pitt), a gypsy in the move Snatch.
I thought the gypsy people were folk lore, like the leprechaun or the tooth fairy!
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On September 28 2011 00:22 qyk05328 wrote:
The problems with the gypsies are merely a symptom of the broken social and justice system in Bulgaria, they are not the cause of it. The general sleaze and corruption is prevalent in all aspects of society, enabling and reinforcing all kinds of anti-social behavior--it is only natural that gypsies have become more and more aggressive.
The gypsies in this story are simple opportunists, preying on the collapsed society that has created them. Focusing solely on them could not solve the problem, it's the system that has allowed them to become what they are that needs changing.
There is truth in your words.
Anyway , people here are fed up. Cases like this one where clans of gypsies terrorize entire small villages are quite common. This one is even worse since the leader of the clan is actually quite wealthy. While certainly there are some good people among the gypsies, most of them dont work, they rely on child support, stealing, dealing drugs, selling votes and what not. Most of them dont pay for water and electricity. If the wall wont protect the people and provide justice, then the people will protect themselves and take justice into their own hands, cause lets face it no one want his kids, his loved ones or himself to be beaten up, killed, raped, or all at the same time.
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On September 28 2011 00:40 drdreggor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 00:26 vanhio wrote:On September 28 2011 00:05 drdreggor wrote:On September 27 2011 23:25 vanhio wrote:
But when some of the gypsies refuse to work and are criminals, that isn't racism, that is being USELESS to society.
90% of them refuse to work and the only thing they do is stealing. People who wants only privilegs and no responsibilities are plague to society. Most of them are not paying their bills and still gets water and electricity. Free water and electricity sounds cool right ? Who do you think pays for all of this ? Who do you think pays child support to every 15 years old gipsy girl with 3 childrens ? People here are sick and tired of this SHIT ! Aaaaaaand here we go again. What the FUCK do you know about how many gypsies that won't work? Where do you get your info? Probably from what you believe and have experienced, and various influences such as media and/or friends. You are making assumptions based on NOTHIN except personal experience and that is not enough to justify expelling a large number of humans, as some of you here sometimes forget the gypsies are. Well, all-knowing guy who lives in a different world let me tell you this. You don`t live here. You don`t where these gypsies live. You don`t see how many of them are going to school. You don`t KNOW how many of them are in JAIL. You don`t know SHIT to be fair. And not writing these posts to CONVINCE somebody that bulgarian gypsies are bad etc.. We know what they are. WE LIVE WITH THEM, UNLIKE YOU. Feel free to come here and see with your own eyes. Edit: I don`t think i need EXACT numbers cuz i live here for 25 years and MAYBE i have an idea how things are... I'm not making wild assumptions though about how 90% of them refuse to work, that's what I'm criticizing; you stating things as facts when you in fact really can't back it up. I'm not claiming to know how the situation actually is, like you are. And you say you live with them blabla, and think that your opinion therefore can be applied to an entire population, well guess what, your opinion doesn't matter on a larger scale unless you can actively back it up. Instead of condemning Gypsies, why aren't you condemning all people who murder, rape etc. You don't know any of these numbers, neither do I; but you are acting like you're the one sitting on the truths.
Actually it's not a "wild assumption" friend. The 2001 and 2006 romanian census found that 92% and 94% of the roma population was unemployed and not looking for work.
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EPT
