On October 14 2011 09:33 Suisen wrote: Cops are already using a lot of violence and this has only just started. When violence is used by cops, this gets a response from the people at some point. It's not like violent riots are something amazing and unique. Every protest in Greece ends in violence. Why? Because the police infiltrate the protesters and have these infiltrators start the riots so the police can respond with excessive violence. This tactic will be used soon.
The key reason why this isn't likely is that the police are people too, and some of these officers, admitting it or not, support what is going on. If you start to ask the wrong people to infiltrate and start a riot, they will snap, and the last thing anyone up top wants is a significant portion of the NYPD joining the protests.
As well, if this happens and the information gets leaked, a massive chain reaction will occur, causing more police departments and more people to join, as they will see what is going on.
Oh joy, the conservatives in here taking one poster as evidence for their prejudices.
oh teh ironies of politics
its weak anyway, every day dozens of people post with the same vehement hatred for "corporations" "capitalism" "republicans" or whatever, and when one of them says 95% of the same things but the other 5% is over the line, you'll fall all over yourself to say we're being unfair and you should not be associated with their insanity.
of course you'll say that, anything else will make you look bad.
I am not promoting violence. All I am saying is that if anything is going to change right now, it is going to be through a violent revolution. Why? Because the protesters are violent? No, Because the elite and their supporters are too entrenched and will not give way to peaceful protesters. Exibit A is xDaunt. Exibit B is DeepElemBlues
And their argument "Change it so impossible. It can only happen through a violent revolution, therefore no change can or should happen. Therefore I stick my head into the sand." Is a silly argument. I am warning literally these two people so they understand the consequences of their actions. Instead, they feel more entrenched into their positions.
in no way do i want to see anyone seriously harmed or killed as a result of these protests or any kind of political disagreement in this or any country.
For ten thousand years political disagreements were settled by violence or the threat of violence, which was always as close by as the nearest sword.
It has only been for a very short time and for a very few number of societies where we have been able to find ways to battle out our political disputes without actually battling. This is one of the greatest accomplishments we can credit ourselves for as humans in general, although of course we are nowhere near yet having that accomplishment be 100%.
In our society, if you lose politically, you lose. You try again next time. Maybe that time you'll win. The point is you will get the chance.
You do not demand that the other side "give way" just because you want them to. You do not say "I do not support violence but it is inevitable that we will use it and it is the other side's fault." That's just a cheap rationalization for political violence and a threat of violence all in one.
And let us understand something that is very, very serious. Any kind of attempt at "revolution" of the kind Suisen posits would be a disaster. For the revolutionaries anyway. Nothing would expose just how low support is for a left-wing/anarchist "revolution" than an actual attempt it. Or for any kind of violent revolution in general. It would be crushed. The vast, vast, vast majority of Americans want to work our problems out through the political system we already have under the Constitution. I don't know why some people who talk about there being violence don't understand this. I don't want to see the government blowing up people because they're trying to firebomb police stations and take over cities. And that's what would happen if people like Suisen deluded themselves or others into thinking that they could actually win. All they'd do would be to hurt innocent people and get themselves killed.
Saying "Oh in 30 years" just makes the prediction worthless, predicting the state of the world in 5 years is a crapshoot much less 30.
"The elite and their supporters" are the 95% of this country that no matter what they think about taxes or corporations or rich vs. poor, do not want to see a disastrous uprising against the government, do not want to see chaos and blood in the streets, and do not want to have anything to do with using force to coerce people's politics, ever.
We who are too "entrenched" wouldn't start the violence, but we certainly would end it. And the whole damn thing would be a tragedy for all involved. So please don't talk so cavalierly about it.
On October 14 2011 09:33 Suisen wrote: Cops are already using a lot of violence and this has only just started. When violence is used by cops, this gets a response from the people at some point. It's not like violent riots are something amazing and unique. Every protest in Greece ends in violence. Why? Because the police infiltrate the protesters and have these infiltrators start the riots so the police can respond with excessive violence. This tactic will be used soon. It was already obvious that the police got orders from above to use violence because it were the serious policemen who were leading the violence. Not some rogue violently inclined grunts.
You cannot claim "excessive violence" without citing your basis for what the appropriate usage of force should have been. Since I'm fairly certain you have no clue how law enforcement officers are trained about the usage of force, I don't expect you to have anything to back it up.
If the OWS crowd narrowed their focus to one single issue: getting campaign contributions completely out of politics, they would have broad support. But since they clutter it up with a bunch of liberal bullshit, they will accomplish nothing.
Now what if the OWS crowd could narrow that focus, and take said issue, and combine it with the original tea party issue, fiscal responsibility. Then what. Maybe a Nader/Paul ticket poke poke
E- Two big issues, more probable, more palpatable, more profitible for the peoples time
On October 14 2011 11:05 TOloseGT wrote: Oh joy, the conservatives in here taking one poster as evidence for their prejudices.
? I honestly did not know any of this was going on until I read this post (Students are in permanent media blackouts FYI) after I decided to do a research paper on the current problems with Capatalism. Definatly will be using this as one of my argument points. And yes, the police would be off-duty forever, but imagine that you are asked to infiltrate a peaceful protest and to make it violent so that your buddies can arrest everyone. Does that sit right with you? Not trying to be argumentative, I personally have no opinion either way. Just trying to use some logic on the situation.
Edit: I do agree that if the protesters decided to be more specific with their demands they would get a lot more support. Basically they are saying "We want all the problems with the US fixed" which isn't helping anybody.
Oh joy, the conservatives in here taking one poster as evidence for their prejudices.
oh teh ironies of politics
its weak anyway, every day dozens of people post with the same vehement hatred for "corporations" "capitalism" "republicans" or whatever, and when one of them says 95% of the same things but the other 5% is over the line, you'll fall all over yourself to say we're being unfair and you should not be associated with their insanity.
of course you'll say that, anything else will make you look bad.
The fuck are you on? This happens daily. Groups distance themselves from the wackos because guess what, they're wackos. If a shooter shoots a congresswoman, and that shooter happens to follow one particular group of thought, that doesn't make the vast majority of the people within that group criminals does it? I love how you try to rationalize your prejudice with school ground logic and subtle condescension.
? I honestly did not know any of this was going on until I read this post (Students are in permanent media blackouts FYI) after I decided to do a research paper on the current problems with Capatalism. Definatly will be using this as one of my argument points. And yes, the police would be off-duty forever, but imagine that you are asked to infiltrate a peaceful protest and to make it violent so that your buddies can arrest everyone. Does that sit right with you? Not trying to be argumentative, I personally have no opinion either way. Just trying to use some logic on the situation.
Edit: I do agree that if the protesters decided to be more specific with their demands they would get a lot more support. Basically they are saying "We want all the problems with the US fixed" which isn't helping anybody.
I was responding to the more vocal conservatives on here.
Arrests going on in Denver(apparently cops in Riot Gear?), San Diego, Seattle, Atlanta... Apparently the storm in New York has delayed/stopped the NYPD, but none of the protesters are moving in any of the cities. Seems like a massive effort to try and end the protests before the 15th.
Why don't you guys try to actually be intelligent human beings and discuss the issues without resorting to political affiliation? What side anyone is on doesn't matter. It's the genetic fallacy, one of the primary rules of logic yet all this thread is is a bunch of people shit-posting about political affiliations rather than the actual issues. It's disgusting.
The eviction(cleaning) of Zuccoti Park was postponed. The people have won today The crowd here is massive.. the roaring louder then I've ever heard before.
On October 14 2011 19:46 Macabre wrote: The eviction(cleaning) of Zuccoti Park was postponed. The people have won today The crowd here is massive.. the roaring louder then I've ever heard before.
The people united will never be defeated.
I was glad to read that, too. Seriously, though. The protesters keep the park clean, they even separate their trash. So Bloomberg really had no choice in that in order to avoid looking like an ass.
Funny thing: while in the US people protest against Wallstreet, politicians in the EU plan to give eben more money to the banks. 2nd Bailout, here we go. I hope many people join the OccupyLondon or OccupyFrankfurt movements on October 15th.
On October 14 2011 19:46 Macabre wrote: The eviction(cleaning) of Zuccoti Park was postponed. The people have won today The crowd here is massive.. the roaring louder then I've ever heard before.
The people united will never be defeated.
Smart move by the police. Would have been a bloody day and the movement would only have grown in support, which it will in time anyway. This was a better solution for everyone involved.
On October 14 2011 19:46 Macabre wrote: The eviction(cleaning) of Zuccoti Park was postponed. The people have won today The crowd here is massive.. the roaring louder then I've ever heard before.
The people united will never be defeated.
Smart move by the police. Would have been a bloody day and the movement would only have grown in support, which it will in time anyway. This was a better solution for everyone involved.
Its funny how events are unfolding in the world haha. All of those because of one man burning himself in a market place. The catalyst that unleashed the anger of the people all over the world, let it be in Arab countries, china, Spain, UK or USA. People in general are fed up with their Govts around the world.
On October 14 2011 19:46 Macabre wrote: The eviction(cleaning) of Zuccoti Park was postponed. The people have won today The crowd here is massive.. the roaring louder then I've ever heard before.
The people united will never be defeated.
I was glad to read that, too. Seriously, though. The protesters keep the park clean, they even separate their trash. So Bloomberg really had no choice in that in order to avoid looking like an ass.
Funny thing: while in the US people protest against Wallstreet, politicians in the EU plan to give eben more money to the banks. 2nd Bailout, here we go. I hope many people join the OccupyLondon or OccupyFrankfurt movements on October 15th.
Yes, I had quite a loud laugh at the pictures of the OWS with brooms early in the morning.
Wow i just saw this on AlJazeera to show you the scope of this protest in terms of how many cities are protesting across the USA. It kind of opened my eyes to how big this is getting.......
On October 15 2011 00:03 sekritzzz wrote: Wow i just saw this on AlJazeera to show you the scope of this protest in terms of how many cities are protesting across the USA. It kind of opened my eyes to how big this is getting.......
'Occupy Wall Street' -- It's Not What They're for, But What They're Against
Critics of the growing Occupy Wall Street movement complain that the protesters don’t have a policy agenda and, therefore, don’t stand for anything. They're wrong. The key isn’t what protesters are for but rather what they’re against -- the gaping inequality that has poisoned our economy, our politics and our nation.
In America today, 400 people have more wealth than the bottom 150 million combined. That’s not because 150 million Americans are pathetically lazy or even unlucky. In fact, Americans have been working harder than ever -- productivity has risen in the last several decades. Big business profits and CEO bonuses have also gone up. Worker salaries, however, have declined.
Most of the Occupy Wall Street protesters aren’t opposed to free market capitalism. In fact, what they want is an end to the crony capitalist system now in place, that makes it easier for the rich and powerful to get even more rich and powerful while making it increasingly hard for the rest of us to get by. The protesters are not anti-American radicals. They are the defenders of the American Dream, the decision from the birth of our nation that success should be determined by hard work not royal bloodlines.
Sure, bank executives may work a lot harder than you and me or a mother of three doing checkout at a grocery store. Maybe the bankers work ten times harder. Maybe even a hundred times harder. But they’re compensated a thousand times more.
The question is not how Occupy Wall Street protesters can find that gross discrepancy immoral. The question is why every one of us isn’t protesting with them.
According to polls, most Americans support the 99% movement, even if they’re not taking to the streets. In fact, support for the Occupy Wall Street protests is not only higher than for either political party in Washington but greater than support for the Tea Party. And unlike the Tea Party which was fueled by national conservative donors and institutions, the Occupy Wall Street Movement is spreading organically from Idaho to Indiana. Institutions on the left, including unions, have been relatively late to the game.
Ironically, the original Boston Tea Party activists would likely support Occupy Wall Street more as well. Note that the original Tea Party didn’t protest taxes, merely the idea of taxation without representation -- and they were actually protesting the crown-backed monopoly of the East India Company, the main big business of the day.
Americans today also support taxes. In fact, two-thirds of voters -- including a majority of Republicans -- support increasing taxes on the rich, something the Occupy Wall Street protests implicitly support. That’s not just anarchist lefty kids. Soccer moms and construction workers and, yes, even some bankers want to see our economy work for the 99%, not just the 1%, and are flocking to Occupy protests in droves.
I’ve even met a number of Libertarians and Tea Party conservatives at these protests. So the critics are right, the Occupy Wall Street movement isn’t the Tea Party. Occupy Wall Street is much, much broader.
Maybe it’s hard to see your best interests reflected in a sometimes rag-tag, inarticulate, imperfect group of protesters. But make no mistake about it: While horrendous inequality is not an American tradition, protest is.And if you’re part of the 99% of underpaid or unemployed Americans crushed in the current economy, the Occupy Wall Street protests are your best chance at fixing the broken economy that is breaking your back.
Sally Kohn is the founder and Chief Education Officer of the Movement Vision Lab, a grassroots think tank. Follow her on Twitter@sallykohn.
On October 15 2011 00:03 sekritzzz wrote: Wow i just saw this on AlJazeera to show you the scope of this protest in terms of how many cities are protesting across the USA. It kind of opened my eyes to how big this is getting.......
On October 15 2011 00:03 sekritzzz wrote: Wow i just saw this on AlJazeera to show you the scope of this protest in terms of how many cities are protesting across the USA. It kind of opened my eyes to how big this is getting.......
I think all you need to be included in that link is a facebook page with an "occupy [city name]." My city is on that list and there is no widespread protest. Just a couple dozen people on campus, which is not much of an achievement considering how easy it is to get college kids to do something for a cause.
The eviction(cleaning) of Zuccoti Park was postponed. The people have won today The crowd here is massive.. the roaring louder then I've ever heard before.
But at the 11th hour the owners of the property suspended a request for the city to clear the square for routine cleaning, saying they believed they could reach a deal, Deputy Mayor Cas Holloway said in a statement.
Brookfield Properties, which owns the site, "believes they can work out an arrangement with the protesters that will ensure the park remains clean, safe, available for public use," Holloway added.
Brookfield and the city are bending over backwards to avoid violence, I hope but don't think it will last.
The choice is between maybe someday getting the park back and restoring it, or destroying the park in the process of removing the protesters.
If this "deal" that they are close to doesn't work, we are back to square one unfortunately. Interesting to see what will happen, what the details of this "deal" will be, whether it will go through, whether it will be lived up to, etc.
EPT
The crowd here is massive.. the roaring louder then I've ever heard before. 
