On March 18 2012 08:43 Voltaire wrote: It's a shame that the protesters were never able to actually form a cause.
"We are the 99%" is definitely not a cause.
it's a shame people actively try not to listen to others. here, i'll get you started.
That video is ancient, that declaration never saw the light of day. Sure, there are a few people who have legitimate reasons to protest, but most of the people involved have no idea what those 22 reasons are.
Just because a small group of individuals creates a "declaration" doesn't mean that the entire movement understands it and supports it.
you're saying you know what the entire movement thinks?
Nope, that's what you're saying.
What I'm saying is that there is no clear, consolidated message coming from the protests other than "We are the 99%", which is just a simple fact.
It's just a big clusterfuck of people who are pissed off at the current situation, without any clear proposed solutions going along with it.
except they do have clear solutions. let's take one: get money out of politics. is that not clear for you? what exactly are you asking for when you say consolidated message? someone speaking for them?
its st pattys day forgive me. But really, are you fucking serious? do you really think that the rich are paying "more than their fair share"?
their fair share is everything. everyone owes EVERYTHING to society. without it, they wouldn't be where they are. the ones who say they did it all themselves are fucking bullshitting. there should be a societal contract you need to sign before you vote. if that was the case you wouldnt have all these fucking assholes saying "oh this and that". i dont give a fuck. the truth is on the wall: people deserve to be treated well by the society which they themselves, in coordination, create. the government of that society should have its values in line with those of the societal mind. thats the whole fucking point. the ones who want to do it by themselves are assholes. its a fact. they wouldnt exist
That may be true in Canada, but this is America we are talking about and people have the right to own their stuff. Nobody owes everything to society (in other words government) and if you think like that maybe get a time machine and go to a communist nation.
and with that in mind: its not one persons idiocy that brings these problems to the forefront. its the manipulating and conniving of those few who go against; its the individualistic "counter-cultures" that create this dissension. you're a fucking fool if you think that people would be who they are without society. and WITH THAT IN MIND: TREAT YOUR NEIGHBOUR WELL. that's all the 99% ask. but they were born into a society already controlled by the financial sector, who in turn controls the PEOPLE'S (DONT MISS THE APOSTROPHE) GOVERNMENT. that is IT. no end of the world in 2012, just a bunch of fucking old white men thinking theyre more important than they are
they only have a right to own their own stuff because their nation is "strong enough" to protect those rights. guess what. your fucking country is a LIE
what does that mean? that the IDEA on which you THINK your country is founded is a LIE. it doesnt work. you cant have "|freedom" and have that equate to "capitalism" and just be fine. its not real. its not true. its a fucking fallacy. you think that makes sense but really it DOESNT. IT DOESNT. you need PEOPLE. you neeed FRIENDS. you need a fucking OCMMUNITY> and if tyou DO then you need to FUCKING RESPECT IT. GOD DAMN
the founding fathers were against the fickle "democracy" for that particular reason. they believed in a REPUBLIC of EQUAL and UNALIENABLE...RIGHTS. DIGNITIES. HUMAN DIGNITY GODDAMNIT
First and foremost these people are not the 99%. These are the 43% that don't pay any taxes, if anything THEY ARE THE ONES OWE EVERYTHING TO SOCIETY. Middle class people, like myself, have jobs and aspire to become something great. If we reach that point and then have to pay for those who are unsuccessful it defeats the point. It is like training your whole life to win a race but you still have to backtrack so everybody is a "winner".
Secondly, it is big business in collusion with the government that creates these problems. It is not a fault with business but of government.
except they do have clear solutions. let's take one: get money out of politics. is that not clear for you? what exactly are you asking for when you say consolidated message? someone speaking for them?
It's impossible to "get money out of politics," though, and if you think it's achievable or even desirable, you don't understand that "money" just gets replaced with other ways of being useful to the government.
their fair share is everything. everyone owes EVERYTHING to society. without it, they wouldn't be where they are. the ones who say they did it all themselves are fucking bullshitting. there should be a societal contract you need to sign before you vote. if that was the case you wouldnt have all these fucking assholes saying "oh this and that". i dont give a fuck. the truth is on the wall: people deserve to be treated well by the society which they themselves, in coordination, create. the government of that society should have its values in line with those of the societal mind. thats the whole fucking point. the ones who want to do it by themselves are assholes. its a fact. they wouldnt exist
And what if the values of the societal mind, as you put it, are more individualistic than you like?
People don't owe anything to society. Society is just a construct of people. Society owes its existence to people. You're putting the cart before the horse.
No one does it on his or her own but the societies where the most gets done are the ones where people do it 'on their own' (that being defined as lack of government meddling) to the greatest degree possible.
they only have a right to own their own stuff because their nation is "strong enough" to protect those rights. guess what. your fucking country is a LIE
Well the reason it is strong enough to protect property rights is because property rights exist. A society without real property rights is a weak society where the only cohesiveness is the force of the government, e.g. the USSR.
what does that mean? that the IDEA on which you THINK your country is founded is a LIE. it doesnt work. you cant have "|freedom" and have that equate to "capitalism" and just be fine. its not real. its not true. its a fucking fallacy. you think that makes sense but really it DOESNT. IT DOESNT. you need PEOPLE. you neeed FRIENDS. you need a fucking OCMMUNITY> and if tyou DO then you need to FUCKING RESPECT IT. GOD DAMN
Capitalism, or rather private property rights, is a vital component of freedom, and there's a reason the strongest communities in existence today or ever are ones with more capitalism than collectivism.
On March 18 2012 08:43 Voltaire wrote: It's a shame that the protesters were never able to actually form a cause.
"We are the 99%" is definitely not a cause.
If only they were able to band together to fight corporate lobbying or advocate campaign financing reform.
They want other peoples' money - that's the cause
Lol, the typical big bank comeback.
You obviously haven't heard what they are saying. Two most common demands are tax people making 250k more and have the government provide me with a job
That's a ridiculous simplification, but even if it were true, those are pretty decent demands imo, given that inequality/austerity has almost universally created economic stagnation or collapse where implemented, and countries with robust public sectors have been the most resilient to global economic woes.
The government is here to provide for society after all.
You're right. It is oversimplification. They also want anarchy. communism, and legalizing all drugs. But, no, those are not decent demands. Why should doctors who have to incur massive amounts of debt be taxed more? It is not like there aren't any jobs, it is that there aren't many jobs for unskilled labor. Community college is free for those with this entitlement disorder and yet they would rather lay on the street for a year. If they spent all that time at school that is a technical or associates degree that people from countries with real problems come to fill. And yes the rich are paying more than their fair share.
1) You can categorize any arbitrary group of people into a single 'they' and pretend that it is a homogenous group in order to paint 'them' any way you like, but it doesn't make it an accurate depiction. We are human beings, we possess the ability to filter and abstract and think critically. Utilize this ability.
2) I've yet to see anyone in the Occupy camp or anyone sympathetic to it targetting doctors as a source of society's ills. It's more about the concentration of wealth and influence by the absolute elite. Doctors hardly qualify.
3) Community college doesn't help with structural unemployment. (aside from the obvious social benefit of having a more educated population) Reducing a social argument into an individual's perspective is a pretty transparently false way of magicking away structural inequality. It's the default argument for closet (or covert, or even blissfully unaware-of-the-implications-of-their-own-ideology-) corporatists, and people realize it's an overutilized argument.
4) What's wrong with being entitled. The way society is structured is absolutely fundamentally broken. It's healthy to feel entitled to a more equal/efficient/better society. Labelling it as a disorder seems to imply that we should accept society being fundamentally abusive. I would argue that accepting things as they are, feeling powerless to change them, and normalizing structural abuses is a disorder, but we're all 'entitled' to our own opinions right? (or is that a disorder in your way of looking at it too? we should all have a single perspective perhaps?)
1) You can categorize any arbitrary group of people into a single 'they' and pretend that it is a homogenous group in order to paint 'them' any way you like, but it doesn't make it an accurate depiction. We are human beings, we possess the ability to filter and abstract and think critically. Utilize this ability.
On the other hand, it's undeniable that the leadership structure of OWS is essentially Marxist in nature. And please don't cry about how it isn't, 5 minutes using Google makes that very very clear.
2) I've yet to see anyone in the Occupy camp or anyone sympathetic to it targetting doctors as a source of society's ills. It's more about the concentration of wealth and influence by the absolute elite. Doctor's hardly qualify.
I think he meant, why should doctors incur large amounts of debt getting the education to be a doctor, only to be taxed more because their incomes are too big or whatever. He could have chosen any professional, dunno why he chose doctors.
3) Community college doesn't help with structural unemployment. (aside from the obvious social benefit of having a more educated population) Reducing a social argument into an individual's perspective is a pretty transparently false way of magicking away structural inequality.
Structural inequality is an inescapable fact of human society, any human society. The question is, is a society that produces more overall wealth better than one that produces less wealth but distributes it more evenly across the entire population. I personally believe the former is superior.
[4) What's wrong with being entitled. The way society is structured is absolutely fundamentally broken. It's healthy to feel entitled to a more equal/efficient/better society. Labelling it as a disorder seems to imply that we should accept society being fundamentally abusive. I would argue that accepting things as they are, feeling powerless to change them, and normalizing structural abuses is a disorder, but we're all 'entitled' to our own opinions right? (or is that a disorder in your way of looking at it too? we should all have a single perspective perhaps?)
What's wrong with feeling entitled to a more economically equal society to the degree OWS wants it to be equal is that it achieves neither political or economic equality.
The way society is structured is not fundamentally broken, that's a great example of first-world problem thinking.
1) I admitted they are very diverse and as i said those are the most common ones.
2)
3) It does help with structural unemployment because there is high demand in tech related jobs that we have to give work visas just to fulfill. (i work with a lot of these people)
4) Entitlement has it pluses and minus. But the people demanding to live off of entitlement is growing and growing. Entitlement accounts for over half of our government spending and almost as much as our tax revenue. If they got aid while trying to improve themselves that would be fine with me but that is not case most of the time.
On March 18 2012 08:43 Voltaire wrote: It's a shame that the protesters were never able to actually form a cause.
"We are the 99%" is definitely not a cause.
If only they were able to band together to fight corporate lobbying or advocate campaign financing reform.
They want other peoples' money - that's the cause
Lol, the typical big bank comeback.
You obviously haven't heard what they are saying. Two most common demands are tax people making 250k more and have the government provide me with a job
what's wrong with a progressive tax and raising taxes on the wealthier americans? it wouldn't kill them.
On March 18 2012 08:43 Voltaire wrote: It's a shame that the protesters were never able to actually form a cause.
"We are the 99%" is definitely not a cause.
If only they were able to band together to fight corporate lobbying or advocate campaign financing reform.
They want other peoples' money - that's the cause
Lol, the typical big bank comeback.
You obviously haven't heard what they are saying. Two most common demands are tax people making 250k more and have the government provide me with a job
what's wrong with a progressive tax and raising taxes on the wealthier americans? it wouldn't kill them.
It is wrong when people see runaway governement spending and immediately attack the rich. Secondly, you don't want to scare them away. It is much better to have them here than some other country.
Zuccotti park cleared once more, rinse and repeat. Many arrested, reports of assault against protesters as well as Journalists, media not allowed in etc.
EDIT: Apparently the NYPD might have also violated a Court Order when setting up Barricades.
On March 18 2012 08:43 Voltaire wrote: It's a shame that the protesters were never able to actually form a cause.
"We are the 99%" is definitely not a cause.
If only they were able to band together to fight corporate lobbying or advocate campaign financing reform.
They want other peoples' money - that's the cause
Lol, the typical big bank comeback.
You obviously haven't heard what they are saying. Two most common demands are tax people making 250k more and have the government provide me with a job
what's wrong with a progressive tax and raising taxes on the wealthier americans? it wouldn't kill them.
It is wrong when people see runaway governement spending and immediately attack the rich. Secondly, you don't want to scare them away. It is much better to have them here than some other country.
I disagree. Why is it better to have super rich in close proximity? They aren't creating jobs, and the presence of huge disparity often just corrupts/erodes public institutions.
It's a toss up for me.
runaway government spending? Stop drinking the koolaid. Why exactly is government spending a bad thing again?
On March 18 2012 13:10 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Zuccotti park cleared once more, rinse and repeat. Many arrested, reports of assault against protesters as well as Journalists, media not allowed in etc.
EDIT: Apparently the NYPD might have also violated a Court Order when setting up Barricades.
*sigh
It's getting pretty fucking OLD already.
Can't get too pissed off at them, gotta endear the arms of power. The biggest fear of those giving the orders is if police start sympathizing with protestors.
3) It does help with structural unemployment because there is high demand in tech related jobs that we have to give work visas just to fulfill. (i work with a lot of these people)
4) Entitlement has it pluses and minus. But the people demanding to live off of entitlement is growing and growing. Entitlement accounts for over half of our government spending and almost as much as our tax revenue. If they got aid while trying to improve themselves that would be fine with me but that is not case most of the time.
1) ok.
2) *shrugs* remember what I said about abstracting and filtering and thinking critically?
3) look at the issue more deeply. look at the systemic nature and underlying cause rather than the symptoms. Why does structural inequality exist? You can't blame it on individuals any more than it makes sense for people affiliated with OWS to blame individuals (though they might have a better case since there are comparatively fewer individuals, and a comparatively higher rate of sociopathy among the ultra-rich, but that's dodging the issue and scapegoating, and it utilizes a logic that is detrimental to society in general). Look at the system and the sum of relations which are structural in nature-- sure, these relations are actively pursued by individuals, but the solutions to them are structural as well. Plus we as a society need to fix some of our core concepts, though that takes a bit longer
4) Those are just assertions. you say things like 'most' 'over half', 'they', none of which are substantiated, and it just sounds like you have this category 'them' in your mind, and you plant your assumptions about society and social problems onto them without actually either verifying if your beliefs are in fact valid, or your depictions of these people you describe are accurate. Look deeper, the world is a lot more complex than we realize.
Theres someone in this thread, call him DEB, that I won't be replying to. I've explained to him and others why doing so is counterproductive elsewhere. I'm restating it here for the record in case he feels wounded that I don't respond.
Theres someone in this thread, call him DEB, that I won't be replying to. I've explained to him and others why doing so is counterproductive elsewhere. I'm restating it here for the record in case he feels wounded that I don't respond.
Society has rarely been changed by converting those holding strongly held opposing views, rather it is converting the great masses without them that brings change on a given issue.
Still a pussy egotistical move, this person you speak of would feel wounded if he hadn't been an egotistical pussy in the same way in another thread with someone else.
EPT
