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Occupy Wall Street - Page 192

Forum Index > General Forum
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TrojanSC
Profile Joined December 2011
United States27 Posts
December 31 2011 10:19 GMT
#3821
Has anything actually happened in December? I hardly pay attention to the Occupy movement anymore (I really only watched the NYC live stream anyways), so I barely have any idea what's going on.
Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm. Winston Churchill
BlackJack
Profile Blog Joined June 2003
United States10574 Posts
December 31 2011 17:22 GMT
#3822
@caradoc, I hope you know that there is a difference between a scientific poll and a poll that gets posted on a website where people can be recruited from forums to vote on. Scientific polls have not said the vast majority of Americans support Occupy. Not even a majority of Americans support the Occupy movement. Surely you can't dispute those facts.
Malgrif
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada1095 Posts
December 31 2011 17:26 GMT
#3823
just judging by the search trends on google, the movement is pretty much dead/dying.

http://www.google.com/trends?q=occupy wall street&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0
for there to be pro there has to be noob.
caradoc
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada3022 Posts
December 31 2011 18:28 GMT
#3824
Note that I referenced public opinion regarding general aims of the occupy movement, rather than the movement itself. We both know that public opinion is very well studied and understood in the US, and has been fairly consistent and stable over time, and consistently significantly to the left of both major parties. So for example, nearly three quarters of Americans see income disparity as a significant problem in the US, nearly two thirds want universal health care, a very large number of polls show significant, around 2/3s consistently in support of higher corporate taxation, nearly half feel all of congress is corrupt... this should come as no surprise, these general trends have been extremely consistent over time, and occupy is best viewed as a manifestation or a symptom of the crystallization of the belief that the system is fundamentally broken.

Salvation a la mode and a cup of tea...
caradoc
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada3022 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-31 19:18:49
December 31 2011 18:36 GMT
#3825
On January 01 2012 02:26 Malgrif wrote:
just judging by the search trends on google, the movement is pretty much dead/dying.

http://www.google.com/trends?q=occupy wall street&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0


Occupy changed/is changing the game in that it marks a critical inflection point for public opinion-- a majority of people now, arguably in ways for the first time recognize that the economic elite which generally have the sway in shaping the fundamental structure of our social/economic/governance system are directly responsible for the myriad social ills, and that economic/social/civil/environmental ills are all connected. This conclusion was unthinkable a decade or so ago but has become common knowledge. Accompanying this idea is an accompanying, perhaps more tacit understanding that power needs to be taken and wielded by well organized grassroots movements, rather than granted by the elite. People get this, and it scares the hell out of the elites.

The brutal and essentially simultaneous repression of the movements across north america indicates that they get it too.

Everyone should realize that 'the movement' is simply another indicator of a social consciousness and level of organization to society. It does not begin, end, or even centre on occupy camps. It would be almost comedically ignorant to think that it was simply a suggestion by a little-known magazine to 'occupy public spaces' that led to this global uprising rather than a much deeper social trend. In fact repression of occupy camps is arguably good for the movement (broadly construed) since people see them being repressed/dismantled and more often than not understand the repression as a consequence of a system that protects and promotes the interests of the elite at any cost. This mobilizes people, since again, polls universally indicate that a majority of people identify quite personally and strongly with the core message of the occupy movement.

Anyways any significant quality of life improvement in history is arguably the result of movements like these. Suffrage, civil rights, labour protection, education all fought and won through popular movements, not dictates of enlightened elites. Again, these ideas are referenced in the article I linked on the previous page, also in my sig.

I don't need really to explain these things though, I think everyone realizes that Occupy fundamentally changed the game in a very important way, perhaps even more so than 9/11, even if they realize this just at a very intuitive level. It's like that critical mid-game engagement that puts one player far back enough that most people realize the game can only go one way now provided no huge mistakes are made, even though they might draw it out for another 20 minutes. Big changes be on the horizon XD
Salvation a la mode and a cup of tea...
tdt
Profile Joined October 2010
United States3179 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-31 18:54:32
December 31 2011 18:53 GMT
#3826
Nothing changed. The looting continues in it's various forms and non-prosecuting continues. Look at MF global just recently actually stole 5 billion of clients money and all they do is ask the CEO to come testify to congress. USA is much different place than 20 years ago when thousands S&L crooks went to actual prison. More rotten, more corrupted, more revolving door. Look at it this way if you work for SEC for like $100K but could work for Goldman for 2-5million as long as you don't rock the boat - you wont.
MC for president
caradoc
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada3022 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-31 19:04:48
December 31 2011 18:57 GMT
#3827
On January 01 2012 03:53 tdt wrote:
Nothing changed. The looting continues in it's various forms and non-prosecuting continues. Look at MF global just recently actually stole 5 billion of clients money and all they do is ask the CEO to come testify to congress. USA is much different place than 20 years ago when thousands S&L crooks went to actual prison. More rotten, more corrupted, more revolving door. Look at it this way if you work for SEC for like $100K but could work for Goldman for 2-5million as long as you don't rock the boat - you wont.


The looting continues, but we're talking about it on a gaming website, and aware of it as ordinary citizens, and we place the blame squarely where it belongs, or at least closer to the mark, and we're pissed off. Some of us more than others, some of us, an increasing number, enough to mobilize, educate, fight for changes. It's an inflection point. The awareness shapes our subsequent actions. It has reached a point where none can dispute the cause of the problems.

Not the case 20 years ago. We would gasp around the dinner table about how it was just a few bad apples, the system wasn't corrupt, it wasn't rigged to benefit them, they didn't make the rules, the system brings us all to prosperity.

Give ourselves more credit yeah?

Still, theres lots of work to do, they'll fight back, and there will be repression, and there will be propaganda and distractions and attempts to hide the truth, but the path forward is now clear in a way that it has never been before.
Salvation a la mode and a cup of tea...
tdt
Profile Joined October 2010
United States3179 Posts
December 31 2011 19:04 GMT
#3828
I hope you are right. I am an accounting major with wall street internship behind me and only have a foggy idea of all that went on. MBS's CDOs etc etc etc I find it hard to believe main street has a clue. I honestly don't believe we can recover until faith and honest broking is restored to the system so hopefully it will come from wall street itself and wise politicians.
MC for president
caradoc
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada3022 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-31 19:24:30
December 31 2011 19:11 GMT
#3829
On January 01 2012 04:04 tdt wrote:
I hope you are right. I am an accounting major with wall street internship behind me and only have a foggy idea of all that went on. MBS's CDOs etc etc etc I find it hard to believe main street has a clue. I honestly don't believe we can recover until faith and honest broking is restored to the system so hopefully it will come from wall street itself and wise politicians.


'Course I hope I'm right too (I'm reasonably confident that I am), though as someone working in that area, you're in a really empowering position to tell people what's going on. XD

It never has come from the top down. Why would Lincoln issue the Emancipation proclamation that didn't free slaves in four states? It wasn't Lyndon Johnson that just decided to sign the Civil Rights Act cuz he felt like it, he was made to by a national movement. Politicians aren't just waking up and deciding to permit gay marriage cuz they feel like it, it is the result of an enduring, deep widespread gay rights movement. Institutional racism vs. the Chinese before WW2, universal suffrage, minimum wage, what little financial regulation we do have was all fought for and won by ordinary individuals getting together and taking it. Sometimes a minimum of pressure is needed, sometimes governments fall.

It won't be any different this time.

Of course if you mean wise politicians as those more like Lyndon Johnson in my example, less like the popular account of Marie Antoinette, then I'm on the same page as you!
Salvation a la mode and a cup of tea...
BlackJack
Profile Blog Joined June 2003
United States10574 Posts
January 04 2012 18:56 GMT
#3830
This is a funny story. A school is under fire for a song that a group of 8 year olds performed called "part of the 99"

http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/school-defends-occupy-song-for-8-year-olds.html

Lyrics

Some people have it all
But they still don’t think they have enough
They want more money
A faster ride
They’re not content
Never satisfied
Yes — they’re the 1 percent
I used to be one of the 1 percent
I worked all the time
Never saw my family
Couldn’t make life rhyme
Then the bubble burst
It really, really hurt
I lost my money
Lost my pride
Lost my home
Now I’m part of the 99
Some people have it all
But they still don’t think they have enough
They want more money
A faster ride
They’re not content
Never satisfied
Yes — they’re the 1 percent
I used to be sad, now I’m satisfied
’Cause I really have enough
Though I lost my yacht and plane
Didn’t need that extra stuff
Could have been much worse
You don’t need to be first
’Cause I’ve got my friends
Here by my side
Don’t need it all
I’m so happy to be part of the 99


The school insists the 8 year olds came up with the song and lyrics on their own and they didn't want to censor the kids. Anyone buying that? lol
caradoc
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada3022 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-05 08:46:38
January 05 2012 08:11 GMT
#3831
On January 05 2012 03:56 BlackJack wrote:
This is a funny story. A school is under fire for a song that a group of 8 year olds performed called "part of the 99"

http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/school-defends-occupy-song-for-8-year-olds.html

Lyrics

Show nested quote +
Some people have it all
But they still don’t think they have enough
They want more money
A faster ride
They’re not content
Never satisfied
Yes — they’re the 1 percent
I used to be one of the 1 percent
I worked all the time
Never saw my family
Couldn’t make life rhyme
Then the bubble burst
It really, really hurt
I lost my money
Lost my pride
Lost my home
Now I’m part of the 99
Some people have it all
But they still don’t think they have enough
They want more money
A faster ride
They’re not content
Never satisfied
Yes — they’re the 1 percent
I used to be sad, now I’m satisfied
’Cause I really have enough
Though I lost my yacht and plane
Didn’t need that extra stuff
Could have been much worse
You don’t need to be first
’Cause I’ve got my friends
Here by my side
Don’t need it all
I’m so happy to be part of the 99


The school insists the 8 year olds came up with the song and lyrics on their own and they didn't want to censor the kids. Anyone buying that? lol



Interesting, perfect segue into the article I was about to post

Essentially, Paul street makes the points that although the comparisons between modern America and early-mid 20th century fascist regimes may be partially based on sociopolitical and historical ignorance, the parallels are worth noting, and at any rate, it no longer makes sense to call America a democracy. The self-censorship/propaganda elements of this story above, (as well as the implicit suggestion in the post that the kids couldn't have possibly come up with it themselves, i.e. they were coached/influenced, and by implication having such views is not in the mainstream) are precise examples of what he's talking about, a powerful species of authoritarian rule propped up by widespread, uncoercive social indoctrination.

I guess its all a matter of definition though, Benito Mussolini calls modern fascism 'corporatism...the merger of state, military and corporate power', and he is somewhat of an expert.

+ Show Spoiler +


Fascist America? Not Quite

Paul Street


Iowa City, IA, January 3, 2011. Imagine if the United States really was, as a number of my fellow leftists claim to think, “a fascist state.”[1] To fit the description, it wouldn’t be enough for the U.S. to be plagued by:



the fierce co-joining of state and corporate/financial power
the persistence and deepening of harsh racial inequality and oppression
stark class disparity (in a country where the top 1 percent owns more than a third of the wealth and the top 20 percent owns 84 percent) producing grotesque hyper-opulence for the rich and powerful Few alongside deep poverty for tens of millions among of the Many
a viciously narrow one-and-a-half party system whose two wings are equally captive to “the unelected dictatorship of money”
a largely defeated and pathetically tamed labor movement
millions of stateless workers whose lack of legal status renders them super-exploitable by employers
a giant military system and war machine that maims and murders millions of innocents abroad
a significant mass of the citizenry that relies on war and empire to make a living and functions as a mercenary population for the elite
an ongoing history of waging illegal wars of aggression abroad
an authoritarian disabling of functioning democratic institutions at home
a pandemic of irrational thought and anti-intellectualism
the violent government suppression and ubiquitous surveillance of domestic dissent
the regular use of military methods and technologies in domestic policing
government assault on basic civil liberties (including the right not to be indefinitely detained without facing charges and without legal representation) and human rights at home and abroad
right wing propaganda systems that (among other things) conflate the right-centrist pseudo-liberalism of business Democrats like Barack Obama with socialism and even “Marxism”
a massive incarceration and criminalization system that keeps a very disproportionately black and Latino army of more than 2 million Americans behind bars and marks more than 1 in 3 adult black males with the lifelong stigma of a felony record
an intellectual class and university and media systems that supinely serve the corporate and financial elite and that elite’s state
the systematic marginalization of radicals and genuine dissenters
the savage concentration of news, information, communication, and cultural institutions into the hands of a tight corporate oligopoly, with corresponding authoritarian ideological consequences
a narcissistic culture of hyper-masculinized nationalism that justifies war and empire with claims of special American “greatness”
a political culture that blames the disadvantaged for their own position at the bottom of the nation’s ever-steeper pyramids of class, race, and ethnicity.



All of these things and more of a terrible and authoritarian nature can be discerned by those willing to see in the contemporary U.S. They are largely consistent with the notion of a “fascist America.” It’s not for nothing that many contemporary Hitler-worshipping European fascists look with favor upon the U.S. as a kind of role model.



Still, there would have to be more for the U.S. to fit the description “fascist state.” To be really fascist, the U.S. would have to be under the thrall of a charismatic dictator who had undertaken a conscious, explicit, and rapid assault on nominally democratic bourgeois-electoralist and representative institutions. That dictator would be supported by a highly mobilized mass of millions of dedicated, proto-militarized, and everyday (largely lower middle class/petit-bourgeois) authoritarians ready to do his bidding at home and abroad. This marching fascist multitude would seek to honor the sanctified Nation State (fatherland) by physically assaulting liberals, radicals, trade unionists, racial minorities, gays and lesbians, libraries, universities, civil society groups, and all political parties other than the ruling regime’s.



In a fascist America, the Occupy Movement would have been lucky to have lasted one night in a single city park before Fuhrer (let’s say) Beck’s minions would have run protestors off with broken bones and worse, herding many into buses and trains to be sent to work camps. There Occupiers would toil under armed guard alongside mostly black prisoners in the making of war materials. It is unthinkable that they would have lasted in their parks for many weeks and even received a considerable amount of half-way favorable media coverage, with journalists freely reporting that more than two thirds of the population supported the movement’s goals.



Untold thousands of Muslims would have been murdered inside the U.S. (not just in the Middle East and Southwest Asia) and sent to giant internment camps. Books would be burning in the streets. Barnes&Nobles outlets would not be allowed to carry volumes from Noam Chomsky, Ralph Nader, and Howard Zinn or even books by Michael Moore, who would have been whisked off (along with the liberal Rachel Maddow, perhaps) to an unnamed federal detention center in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan (the staff at “Democracy Now” would reside in Guantanamo). Elections would be dispensed with. Much of the media would be shut down. The parts that remained would be subject to ruthless centralized control from ideological authorities (some transferred over from FOX News) in Fortress Washington. Democracy and justice activists would have to meet secretly and would live in constant danger of beating, torture, and disappearance.



The “grassroots” core of the nation’s hard right wouldn’t be a bunch of comfortably retired white Republican Tea Partiers who claim to support the “free market” but who want to close the borders and keep their Medicare and Social Security[2] and who don’t particularly enjoy collective action. Instead, they would be younger, steely-eyed, truncheon-wielding, jackboot-wearing shock troops who love nothing more than rugged mass head-cracking action against various perceived liberal, racial, radical, and national enemies of the Founding Fathers’ land at home and abroad. The nation would be on a war footing, poised to invade not just distant Middle Eastern or Asian states but its immediate neighbors Canada and Mexico.



That’s what a truly “fascist America” would look like. It obviously hasn’t arrived and it’s unlikely to appear anytime soon. The hypothetical scenarios I just laid out amount largely to the transplantation into contemporary America of developments that are rooted in the toxic historical subsoil of interwar Europe (particularly of course in Italy and above all Hitler’s Third Reich Germany), the real and time and place for serious discussion of actual historical fascism. Even it could actually access it, the American ruling class doesn’t particularly need that particular mode of rule, which is less stable and durable than the current, considerably softer neoliberal regime of corporate-managed fake-democracy, whereby most of the population is generally de-mobilized, individualized, and fragmented and popular governance is slow-cooked to death through a million plutocratic, state-capitalist cuts. Under the American model of elite-managed shadow democracy, the reign of the Few masquerades as popular self-determination and “the free market” instead of lurking behind the explicitly repressive and holy State.



Even if real historical fascism could be translated across times and place to the modern U.S. it would be largely redundant for America’s powers that be. The American elite already gets the basic regressive and authoritarian outcomes of fascism – increased exploitation and division of the working class, deepening concentration of wealth and power, the disabling of political democracy and social justice, the marginalization of dissent and critical thought, and the advance of stupendous and lucrative militarism and empire – without having to unleash the full brutality of fascist dictatorship.



So why do some radicals and progressives like to throw the word fascism around with great bravado in connection with the contemporary U.S.? Beyond simple sociopolitical and historical ignorance (and I think fascism is a fairly complex historical subject matter), I think many of them may do it for an understandable shock effect. The parallels between contemporary and ongoing authoritarian/racist/classist/sexist/corporatist/ nationalist/imperialist Americanism – see my opening bullet points – and the Third Reich (and for that matter and to a lesser degree with the Soviet Empire of 1928-1991) are no laughing matter. The contemporary U.S. may not be a fascist totalitarian state. But it is highly questionable whether it deserves any longer to be considered a democracy. As veteran left-liberal political scientist Sheldon Wolin argued four years ago on the eve of the fake-progressive corporate imperialist Barack Obama’s ascendancy, the U.S. may have “morphed into a new and strange kind of political hybrid, one where economic and state powers are conjoined and virtually unbridled.” Wolin’s chilling book Democracy Incorporated described a mass-incarceration-ist and militarized nation, “where citizens are politically uninterested and submissive – and where elites are eager to keep them that way. At best,” Wolin argued, “the nation has become a ‘managed democracy’ where the public is shepherded, not sovereign [emphasis added]. At worst it is a place where corporate power no longer answer to state controls” and where “unchecked economic power risks verging on total power and has its own unnerving pathologies.” In Wolin’s view, Cheney-Bush America had the potential to become modern history’s third great totalitarian formation, succeeding the brown fascism of Hitler’s Germany and the red fascism of Stalin’s Russia.



Particularly “unnerving” to me is the possibility that this formation could be the most sophisticated and powerful species of authoritarian rule yet developed. As the brilliant Australian propaganda critic Alex Carey noted back in the Reagan-Thatcher era, the greatest and most potent long-term threat to “the liberal-democratic freedoms we are all supposed to enjoy” has not come from the 1984 “left” but rather in the deceptively “un-coercive” form of “a widespread social and political indoctrination, an indoctrination which promotes business interests as everyone’s interests and in the process fragments the community and closes off individual and critical thought.” The critical homeland and headquarters of this indoctrination and the deadly, oxymoronic and Orwellian “corporate-managed democracy” it breeds was of course the outwardly liberal and ostensibly freedom-loving United States, where the art and science of “taking the risk out of democracy” (what Noam Chomsky and Edward S. Herman later and famously termed “manufacturing consent”) – something different and arguably even more dangerous than the open and explicit bludgeoning of democracy – was, for various historical reasons, carried to new levels (see Alex Carey, Taking the Risk Out of Democracy: Corporate Propaganda Versus Freedom and Liberty (Urbana, IL: University of Illinois Press, 1997).



Alongside the ever more imminent ecological self-destruction imposed by the profits system and the ever-present danger of nuclear war, this great authoritarian threat (potentially “totalitarian” by Wolin’s account) underlines the desperately “fierce urgency of now” (Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.) when it comes to expanding the great American democracy upsurge that broke out last year in Madison, Wisconsin, Columbus, Ohio, Zucotti Park and more than 850 Occupy sites across the nation and world. On that note, I will now depart to see what kind of sand I can throw into the authoritarian gears of the fake-democratic Iowa Caucus extravaganza on this very cold evening of January 3, 2012.

Salvation a la mode and a cup of tea...
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
January 05 2012 08:55 GMT
#3832
On January 05 2012 17:11 caradoc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 05 2012 03:56 BlackJack wrote:
This is a funny story. A school is under fire for a song that a group of 8 year olds performed called "part of the 99"

http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/school-defends-occupy-song-for-8-year-olds.html

Lyrics

Some people have it all
But they still don’t think they have enough
They want more money
A faster ride
They’re not content
Never satisfied
Yes — they’re the 1 percent
I used to be one of the 1 percent
I worked all the time
Never saw my family
Couldn’t make life rhyme
Then the bubble burst
It really, really hurt
I lost my money
Lost my pride
Lost my home
Now I’m part of the 99
Some people have it all
But they still don’t think they have enough
They want more money
A faster ride
They’re not content
Never satisfied
Yes — they’re the 1 percent
I used to be sad, now I’m satisfied
’Cause I really have enough
Though I lost my yacht and plane
Didn’t need that extra stuff
Could have been much worse
You don’t need to be first
’Cause I’ve got my friends
Here by my side
Don’t need it all
I’m so happy to be part of the 99


The school insists the 8 year olds came up with the song and lyrics on their own and they didn't want to censor the kids. Anyone buying that? lol



Interesting, perfect segue into the article I was about to post

Essentially, Paul street makes the points that although the comparisons between modern America and early-mid 20th century fascist regimes may be partially based on sociopolitical and historical ignorance, the parallels are worth noting, and at any rate, it no longer makes sense to call America a democracy. The self-censorship/propaganda elements of this story above, (as well as the implicit suggestion in the post that the kids couldn't have possibly come up with it themselves, i.e. they were coached/influenced, and by implication having such views is not in the mainstream) are precise examples of what he's talking about, a powerful species of authoritarian rule propped up by widespread, uncoercive social indoctrination.

+ Show Spoiler +


Fascist America? Not Quite

Paul Street


Iowa City, IA, January 3, 2011. Imagine if the United States really was, as a number of my fellow leftists claim to think, “a fascist state.”[1] To fit the description, it wouldn’t be enough for the U.S. to be plagued by:



the fierce co-joining of state and corporate/financial power
the persistence and deepening of harsh racial inequality and oppression
stark class disparity (in a country where the top 1 percent owns more than a third of the wealth and the top 20 percent owns 84 percent) producing grotesque hyper-opulence for the rich and powerful Few alongside deep poverty for tens of millions among of the Many
a viciously narrow one-and-a-half party system whose two wings are equally captive to “the unelected dictatorship of money”
a largely defeated and pathetically tamed labor movement
millions of stateless workers whose lack of legal status renders them super-exploitable by employers
a giant military system and war machine that maims and murders millions of innocents abroad
a significant mass of the citizenry that relies on war and empire to make a living and functions as a mercenary population for the elite
an ongoing history of waging illegal wars of aggression abroad
an authoritarian disabling of functioning democratic institutions at home
a pandemic of irrational thought and anti-intellectualism
the violent government suppression and ubiquitous surveillance of domestic dissent
the regular use of military methods and technologies in domestic policing
government assault on basic civil liberties (including the right not to be indefinitely detained without facing charges and without legal representation) and human rights at home and abroad
right wing propaganda systems that (among other things) conflate the right-centrist pseudo-liberalism of business Democrats like Barack Obama with socialism and even “Marxism”
a massive incarceration and criminalization system that keeps a very disproportionately black and Latino army of more than 2 million Americans behind bars and marks more than 1 in 3 adult black males with the lifelong stigma of a felony record
an intellectual class and university and media systems that supinely serve the corporate and financial elite and that elite’s state
the systematic marginalization of radicals and genuine dissenters
the savage concentration of news, information, communication, and cultural institutions into the hands of a tight corporate oligopoly, with corresponding authoritarian ideological consequences
a narcissistic culture of hyper-masculinized nationalism that justifies war and empire with claims of special American “greatness”
a political culture that blames the disadvantaged for their own position at the bottom of the nation’s ever-steeper pyramids of class, race, and ethnicity.



All of these things and more of a terrible and authoritarian nature can be discerned by those willing to see in the contemporary U.S. They are largely consistent with the notion of a “fascist America.” It’s not for nothing that many contemporary Hitler-worshipping European fascists look with favor upon the U.S. as a kind of role model.



Still, there would have to be more for the U.S. to fit the description “fascist state.” To be really fascist, the U.S. would have to be under the thrall of a charismatic dictator who had undertaken a conscious, explicit, and rapid assault on nominally democratic bourgeois-electoralist and representative institutions. That dictator would be supported by a highly mobilized mass of millions of dedicated, proto-militarized, and everyday (largely lower middle class/petit-bourgeois) authoritarians ready to do his bidding at home and abroad. This marching fascist multitude would seek to honor the sanctified Nation State (fatherland) by physically assaulting liberals, radicals, trade unionists, racial minorities, gays and lesbians, libraries, universities, civil society groups, and all political parties other than the ruling regime’s.



In a fascist America, the Occupy Movement would have been lucky to have lasted one night in a single city park before Fuhrer (let’s say) Beck’s minions would have run protestors off with broken bones and worse, herding many into buses and trains to be sent to work camps. There Occupiers would toil under armed guard alongside mostly black prisoners in the making of war materials. It is unthinkable that they would have lasted in their parks for many weeks and even received a considerable amount of half-way favorable media coverage, with journalists freely reporting that more than two thirds of the population supported the movement’s goals.



Untold thousands of Muslims would have been murdered inside the U.S. (not just in the Middle East and Southwest Asia) and sent to giant internment camps. Books would be burning in the streets. Barnes&Nobles outlets would not be allowed to carry volumes from Noam Chomsky, Ralph Nader, and Howard Zinn or even books by Michael Moore, who would have been whisked off (along with the liberal Rachel Maddow, perhaps) to an unnamed federal detention center in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan (the staff at “Democracy Now” would reside in Guantanamo). Elections would be dispensed with. Much of the media would be shut down. The parts that remained would be subject to ruthless centralized control from ideological authorities (some transferred over from FOX News) in Fortress Washington. Democracy and justice activists would have to meet secretly and would live in constant danger of beating, torture, and disappearance.



The “grassroots” core of the nation’s hard right wouldn’t be a bunch of comfortably retired white Republican Tea Partiers who claim to support the “free market” but who want to close the borders and keep their Medicare and Social Security[2] and who don’t particularly enjoy collective action. Instead, they would be younger, steely-eyed, truncheon-wielding, jackboot-wearing shock troops who love nothing more than rugged mass head-cracking action against various perceived liberal, racial, radical, and national enemies of the Founding Fathers’ land at home and abroad. The nation would be on a war footing, poised to invade not just distant Middle Eastern or Asian states but its immediate neighbors Canada and Mexico.



That’s what a truly “fascist America” would look like. It obviously hasn’t arrived and it’s unlikely to appear anytime soon. The hypothetical scenarios I just laid out amount largely to the transplantation into contemporary America of developments that are rooted in the toxic historical subsoil of interwar Europe (particularly of course in Italy and above all Hitler’s Third Reich Germany), the real and time and place for serious discussion of actual historical fascism. Even it could actually access it, the American ruling class doesn’t particularly need that particular mode of rule, which is less stable and durable than the current, considerably softer neoliberal regime of corporate-managed fake-democracy, whereby most of the population is generally de-mobilized, individualized, and fragmented and popular governance is slow-cooked to death through a million plutocratic, state-capitalist cuts. Under the American model of elite-managed shadow democracy, the reign of the Few masquerades as popular self-determination and “the free market” instead of lurking behind the explicitly repressive and holy State.



Even if real historical fascism could be translated across times and place to the modern U.S. it would be largely redundant for America’s powers that be. The American elite already gets the basic regressive and authoritarian outcomes of fascism – increased exploitation and division of the working class, deepening concentration of wealth and power, the disabling of political democracy and social justice, the marginalization of dissent and critical thought, and the advance of stupendous and lucrative militarism and empire – without having to unleash the full brutality of fascist dictatorship.



So why do some radicals and progressives like to throw the word fascism around with great bravado in connection with the contemporary U.S.? Beyond simple sociopolitical and historical ignorance (and I think fascism is a fairly complex historical subject matter), I think many of them may do it for an understandable shock effect. The parallels between contemporary and ongoing authoritarian/racist/classist/sexist/corporatist/ nationalist/imperialist Americanism – see my opening bullet points – and the Third Reich (and for that matter and to a lesser degree with the Soviet Empire of 1928-1991) are no laughing matter. The contemporary U.S. may not be a fascist totalitarian state. But it is highly questionable whether it deserves any longer to be considered a democracy. As veteran left-liberal political scientist Sheldon Wolin argued four years ago on the eve of the fake-progressive corporate imperialist Barack Obama’s ascendancy, the U.S. may have “morphed into a new and strange kind of political hybrid, one where economic and state powers are conjoined and virtually unbridled.” Wolin’s chilling book Democracy Incorporated described a mass-incarceration-ist and militarized nation, “where citizens are politically uninterested and submissive – and where elites are eager to keep them that way. At best,” Wolin argued, “the nation has become a ‘managed democracy’ where the public is shepherded, not sovereign [emphasis added]. At worst it is a place where corporate power no longer answer to state controls” and where “unchecked economic power risks verging on total power and has its own unnerving pathologies.” In Wolin’s view, Cheney-Bush America had the potential to become modern history’s third great totalitarian formation, succeeding the brown fascism of Hitler’s Germany and the red fascism of Stalin’s Russia.



Particularly “unnerving” to me is the possibility that this formation could be the most sophisticated and powerful species of authoritarian rule yet developed. As the brilliant Australian propaganda critic Alex Carey noted back in the Reagan-Thatcher era, the greatest and most potent long-term threat to “the liberal-democratic freedoms we are all supposed to enjoy” has not come from the 1984 “left” but rather in the deceptively “un-coercive” form of “a widespread social and political indoctrination, an indoctrination which promotes business interests as everyone’s interests and in the process fragments the community and closes off individual and critical thought.” The critical homeland and headquarters of this indoctrination and the deadly, oxymoronic and Orwellian “corporate-managed democracy” it breeds was of course the outwardly liberal and ostensibly freedom-loving United States, where the art and science of “taking the risk out of democracy” (what Noam Chomsky and Edward S. Herman later and famously termed “manufacturing consent”) – something different and arguably even more dangerous than the open and explicit bludgeoning of democracy – was, for various historical reasons, carried to new levels (see Alex Carey, Taking the Risk Out of Democracy: Corporate Propaganda Versus Freedom and Liberty (Urbana, IL: University of Illinois Press, 1997).



Alongside the ever more imminent ecological self-destruction imposed by the profits system and the ever-present danger of nuclear war, this great authoritarian threat (potentially “totalitarian” by Wolin’s account) underlines the desperately “fierce urgency of now” (Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.) when it comes to expanding the great American democracy upsurge that broke out last year in Madison, Wisconsin, Columbus, Ohio, Zucotti Park and more than 850 Occupy sites across the nation and world. On that note, I will now depart to see what kind of sand I can throw into the authoritarian gears of the fake-democratic Iowa Caucus extravaganza on this very cold evening of January 3, 2012.


Yeah, 8 year olds really need to learn that political bull. Just a shock piece, though. They'll go on their own journey to decide whether the country really is clandestinely ruled by 1% of the total population to the detriment of the other 99%.

Nice little propaganda piece at the end you've got there. I particularly enjoyed, "It’s not for nothing that many contemporary Hitler-worshipping European fascists look with favor upon the U.S. as a kind of role model." Well, and what was suggested by the quote from Alex Carey, “a widespread social and political indoctrination, an indoctrination which promotes business interests as everyone’s interests and in the process fragments the community and closes off individual and critical thought.” If that's his criticism of Reagan-Thatcher era, he'd do better to extend it back to Adam Smith etc. One thing to disagree with the small government etc ideals, and quite another to follow that out and say everybody has been brainwashed and the government now is fascist in nature.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Gnial
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada907 Posts
January 05 2012 09:01 GMT
#3833
My biggest issue with the movement at this point is the term 1%. I know that educated commentators will say that the 1% doesn't actually mean every member of the top 1% - only certain ones - but that is exactly the problem. A lot of people don't realize this, and it has the effect of demonizing (in the eyes of some) a lot of smart, hard working people who should be idolized and learned from.
1, eh? 2, eh? 3, eh?
caradoc
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada3022 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-05 09:27:02
January 05 2012 09:06 GMT
#3834
On January 05 2012 17:55 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 05 2012 17:11 caradoc wrote:
On January 05 2012 03:56 BlackJack wrote:
This is a funny story. A school is under fire for a song that a group of 8 year olds performed called "part of the 99"

http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/school-defends-occupy-song-for-8-year-olds.html

Lyrics

Some people have it all
But they still don’t think they have enough
They want more money
A faster ride
They’re not content
Never satisfied
Yes — they’re the 1 percent
I used to be one of the 1 percent
I worked all the time
Never saw my family
Couldn’t make life rhyme
Then the bubble burst
It really, really hurt
I lost my money
Lost my pride
Lost my home
Now I’m part of the 99
Some people have it all
But they still don’t think they have enough
They want more money
A faster ride
They’re not content
Never satisfied
Yes — they’re the 1 percent
I used to be sad, now I’m satisfied
’Cause I really have enough
Though I lost my yacht and plane
Didn’t need that extra stuff
Could have been much worse
You don’t need to be first
’Cause I’ve got my friends
Here by my side
Don’t need it all
I’m so happy to be part of the 99


The school insists the 8 year olds came up with the song and lyrics on their own and they didn't want to censor the kids. Anyone buying that? lol



Interesting, perfect segue into the article I was about to post

Essentially, Paul street makes the points that although the comparisons between modern America and early-mid 20th century fascist regimes may be partially based on sociopolitical and historical ignorance, the parallels are worth noting, and at any rate, it no longer makes sense to call America a democracy. The self-censorship/propaganda elements of this story above, (as well as the implicit suggestion in the post that the kids couldn't have possibly come up with it themselves, i.e. they were coached/influenced, and by implication having such views is not in the mainstream) are precise examples of what he's talking about, a powerful species of authoritarian rule propped up by widespread, uncoercive social indoctrination.

+ Show Spoiler +


Fascist America? Not Quite

Paul Street


Iowa City, IA, January 3, 2011. Imagine if the United States really was, as a number of my fellow leftists claim to think, “a fascist state.”[1] To fit the description, it wouldn’t be enough for the U.S. to be plagued by:



the fierce co-joining of state and corporate/financial power
the persistence and deepening of harsh racial inequality and oppression
stark class disparity (in a country where the top 1 percent owns more than a third of the wealth and the top 20 percent owns 84 percent) producing grotesque hyper-opulence for the rich and powerful Few alongside deep poverty for tens of millions among of the Many
a viciously narrow one-and-a-half party system whose two wings are equally captive to “the unelected dictatorship of money”
a largely defeated and pathetically tamed labor movement
millions of stateless workers whose lack of legal status renders them super-exploitable by employers
a giant military system and war machine that maims and murders millions of innocents abroad
a significant mass of the citizenry that relies on war and empire to make a living and functions as a mercenary population for the elite
an ongoing history of waging illegal wars of aggression abroad
an authoritarian disabling of functioning democratic institutions at home
a pandemic of irrational thought and anti-intellectualism
the violent government suppression and ubiquitous surveillance of domestic dissent
the regular use of military methods and technologies in domestic policing
government assault on basic civil liberties (including the right not to be indefinitely detained without facing charges and without legal representation) and human rights at home and abroad
right wing propaganda systems that (among other things) conflate the right-centrist pseudo-liberalism of business Democrats like Barack Obama with socialism and even “Marxism”
a massive incarceration and criminalization system that keeps a very disproportionately black and Latino army of more than 2 million Americans behind bars and marks more than 1 in 3 adult black males with the lifelong stigma of a felony record
an intellectual class and university and media systems that supinely serve the corporate and financial elite and that elite’s state
the systematic marginalization of radicals and genuine dissenters
the savage concentration of news, information, communication, and cultural institutions into the hands of a tight corporate oligopoly, with corresponding authoritarian ideological consequences
a narcissistic culture of hyper-masculinized nationalism that justifies war and empire with claims of special American “greatness”
a political culture that blames the disadvantaged for their own position at the bottom of the nation’s ever-steeper pyramids of class, race, and ethnicity.



All of these things and more of a terrible and authoritarian nature can be discerned by those willing to see in the contemporary U.S. They are largely consistent with the notion of a “fascist America.” It’s not for nothing that many contemporary Hitler-worshipping European fascists look with favor upon the U.S. as a kind of role model.



Still, there would have to be more for the U.S. to fit the description “fascist state.” To be really fascist, the U.S. would have to be under the thrall of a charismatic dictator who had undertaken a conscious, explicit, and rapid assault on nominally democratic bourgeois-electoralist and representative institutions. That dictator would be supported by a highly mobilized mass of millions of dedicated, proto-militarized, and everyday (largely lower middle class/petit-bourgeois) authoritarians ready to do his bidding at home and abroad. This marching fascist multitude would seek to honor the sanctified Nation State (fatherland) by physically assaulting liberals, radicals, trade unionists, racial minorities, gays and lesbians, libraries, universities, civil society groups, and all political parties other than the ruling regime’s.



In a fascist America, the Occupy Movement would have been lucky to have lasted one night in a single city park before Fuhrer (let’s say) Beck’s minions would have run protestors off with broken bones and worse, herding many into buses and trains to be sent to work camps. There Occupiers would toil under armed guard alongside mostly black prisoners in the making of war materials. It is unthinkable that they would have lasted in their parks for many weeks and even received a considerable amount of half-way favorable media coverage, with journalists freely reporting that more than two thirds of the population supported the movement’s goals.



Untold thousands of Muslims would have been murdered inside the U.S. (not just in the Middle East and Southwest Asia) and sent to giant internment camps. Books would be burning in the streets. Barnes&Nobles outlets would not be allowed to carry volumes from Noam Chomsky, Ralph Nader, and Howard Zinn or even books by Michael Moore, who would have been whisked off (along with the liberal Rachel Maddow, perhaps) to an unnamed federal detention center in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan (the staff at “Democracy Now” would reside in Guantanamo). Elections would be dispensed with. Much of the media would be shut down. The parts that remained would be subject to ruthless centralized control from ideological authorities (some transferred over from FOX News) in Fortress Washington. Democracy and justice activists would have to meet secretly and would live in constant danger of beating, torture, and disappearance.



The “grassroots” core of the nation’s hard right wouldn’t be a bunch of comfortably retired white Republican Tea Partiers who claim to support the “free market” but who want to close the borders and keep their Medicare and Social Security[2] and who don’t particularly enjoy collective action. Instead, they would be younger, steely-eyed, truncheon-wielding, jackboot-wearing shock troops who love nothing more than rugged mass head-cracking action against various perceived liberal, racial, radical, and national enemies of the Founding Fathers’ land at home and abroad. The nation would be on a war footing, poised to invade not just distant Middle Eastern or Asian states but its immediate neighbors Canada and Mexico.



That’s what a truly “fascist America” would look like. It obviously hasn’t arrived and it’s unlikely to appear anytime soon. The hypothetical scenarios I just laid out amount largely to the transplantation into contemporary America of developments that are rooted in the toxic historical subsoil of interwar Europe (particularly of course in Italy and above all Hitler’s Third Reich Germany), the real and time and place for serious discussion of actual historical fascism. Even it could actually access it, the American ruling class doesn’t particularly need that particular mode of rule, which is less stable and durable than the current, considerably softer neoliberal regime of corporate-managed fake-democracy, whereby most of the population is generally de-mobilized, individualized, and fragmented and popular governance is slow-cooked to death through a million plutocratic, state-capitalist cuts. Under the American model of elite-managed shadow democracy, the reign of the Few masquerades as popular self-determination and “the free market” instead of lurking behind the explicitly repressive and holy State.



Even if real historical fascism could be translated across times and place to the modern U.S. it would be largely redundant for America’s powers that be. The American elite already gets the basic regressive and authoritarian outcomes of fascism – increased exploitation and division of the working class, deepening concentration of wealth and power, the disabling of political democracy and social justice, the marginalization of dissent and critical thought, and the advance of stupendous and lucrative militarism and empire – without having to unleash the full brutality of fascist dictatorship.



So why do some radicals and progressives like to throw the word fascism around with great bravado in connection with the contemporary U.S.? Beyond simple sociopolitical and historical ignorance (and I think fascism is a fairly complex historical subject matter), I think many of them may do it for an understandable shock effect. The parallels between contemporary and ongoing authoritarian/racist/classist/sexist/corporatist/ nationalist/imperialist Americanism – see my opening bullet points – and the Third Reich (and for that matter and to a lesser degree with the Soviet Empire of 1928-1991) are no laughing matter. The contemporary U.S. may not be a fascist totalitarian state. But it is highly questionable whether it deserves any longer to be considered a democracy. As veteran left-liberal political scientist Sheldon Wolin argued four years ago on the eve of the fake-progressive corporate imperialist Barack Obama’s ascendancy, the U.S. may have “morphed into a new and strange kind of political hybrid, one where economic and state powers are conjoined and virtually unbridled.” Wolin’s chilling book Democracy Incorporated described a mass-incarceration-ist and militarized nation, “where citizens are politically uninterested and submissive – and where elites are eager to keep them that way. At best,” Wolin argued, “the nation has become a ‘managed democracy’ where the public is shepherded, not sovereign [emphasis added]. At worst it is a place where corporate power no longer answer to state controls” and where “unchecked economic power risks verging on total power and has its own unnerving pathologies.” In Wolin’s view, Cheney-Bush America had the potential to become modern history’s third great totalitarian formation, succeeding the brown fascism of Hitler’s Germany and the red fascism of Stalin’s Russia.



Particularly “unnerving” to me is the possibility that this formation could be the most sophisticated and powerful species of authoritarian rule yet developed. As the brilliant Australian propaganda critic Alex Carey noted back in the Reagan-Thatcher era, the greatest and most potent long-term threat to “the liberal-democratic freedoms we are all supposed to enjoy” has not come from the 1984 “left” but rather in the deceptively “un-coercive” form of “a widespread social and political indoctrination, an indoctrination which promotes business interests as everyone’s interests and in the process fragments the community and closes off individual and critical thought.” The critical homeland and headquarters of this indoctrination and the deadly, oxymoronic and Orwellian “corporate-managed democracy” it breeds was of course the outwardly liberal and ostensibly freedom-loving United States, where the art and science of “taking the risk out of democracy” (what Noam Chomsky and Edward S. Herman later and famously termed “manufacturing consent”) – something different and arguably even more dangerous than the open and explicit bludgeoning of democracy – was, for various historical reasons, carried to new levels (see Alex Carey, Taking the Risk Out of Democracy: Corporate Propaganda Versus Freedom and Liberty (Urbana, IL: University of Illinois Press, 1997).



Alongside the ever more imminent ecological self-destruction imposed by the profits system and the ever-present danger of nuclear war, this great authoritarian threat (potentially “totalitarian” by Wolin’s account) underlines the desperately “fierce urgency of now” (Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.) when it comes to expanding the great American democracy upsurge that broke out last year in Madison, Wisconsin, Columbus, Ohio, Zucotti Park and more than 850 Occupy sites across the nation and world. On that note, I will now depart to see what kind of sand I can throw into the authoritarian gears of the fake-democratic Iowa Caucus extravaganza on this very cold evening of January 3, 2012.


Yeah, 8 year olds really need to learn that political bull. Just a shock piece, though. They'll go on their own journey to decide whether the country really is clandestinely ruled by 1% of the total population to the detriment of the other 99%.

Nice little propaganda piece at the end you've got there. I particularly enjoyed, "It’s not for nothing that many contemporary Hitler-worshipping European fascists look with favor upon the U.S. as a kind of role model." Well, and what was suggested by the quote from Alex Carey, “a widespread social and political indoctrination, an indoctrination which promotes business interests as everyone’s interests and in the process fragments the community and closes off individual and critical thought.” If that's his criticism of Reagan-Thatcher era, he'd do better to extend it back to Adam Smith etc. One thing to disagree with the small government etc ideals, and quite another to follow that out and say everybody has been brainwashed and the government now is fascist in nature.


Small government I don't think intersects directly with any of the points here. It's a peripheral issue. Alex Carey isn't Paul Street-- if you're discussing Alex Carey's ideas, it might take an entire different thread, though corporate propaganda is pretty relevant here. Corporate propaganda or the manipulation of market opinion is well studied by people of the entire political spectrum. In fact even Adam Smith, who you cite should be a target of criticism by Alex Carey (though why I am not sure) isn't in favour of unrestrained corporatism-- it's probably a case of historical myopia that most free market ideologues cite Adam Smith as an advocate of an unrestricted free market-- in fact Adam Smith constantly warned against the 'conspiracy against the public' inherent in 'collusive business interests'.

If you're discussing Paul Street, then discuss him. Basically I'm not sure what you're talking about since I can't make sense or find an internal logic in your critique at all. There are adjectives that you use (propaganda [piece], shock [piece]) and allusions to it being conspiracy theory (cladestinely ruled), but I can't find a structured argument underneath it. Sorry if I misread.

On January 05 2012 18:01 Gnial wrote:
My biggest issue with the movement at this point is the term 1%. I know that educated commentators will say that the 1% doesn't actually mean every member of the top 1% - only certain ones - but that is exactly the problem. A lot of people don't realize this, and it has the effect of demonizing (in the eyes of some) a lot of smart, hard working people who should be idolized and learned from.


I'm not sure if many people actually demonize everyone within 'the 1%', but you absolutely aren't alone in criticizing the actual term. The 1% hits the problem, structural inequality, but in some ways it obscures deeper problems, like the monopoly on 'empowering work' by the 'coordinator class' , or the fact that the term should really be something more like the 99.9%, since even a majority of the people within the 1% don't necessarily have a disproportionate amount of power in influencing the structure of the world/country/whatever. Check here and here for some discussion.

Robin Hahnel, a professor of economics at Portland State, makes a pretty good argument here for why its a pretty good term.
Salvation a la mode and a cup of tea...
Alakaslam
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
United States17336 Posts
January 21 2012 01:01 GMT
#3835
On November 19 2011 04:03 WhiteDog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 19 2011 02:49 Jrocker152 wrote:
On September 18 2011 08:17 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
On September 18 2011 08:10 TOloseGT wrote:
I have two friends working on Wall Street and believe it or not, they're people, lol.


Are they executives by any chance?

But if you can bring them onto TL and they can give their side of the story (or simply tell you so you can post up here), I'd be happy to hear it

Simpletons.

I don't understand why that kind of troll is not banned...

The whole story about Fox News is hillarious, I mean how can they talk so freely about the OWSer ?

I got angry about how often people say things that look relevant but really aren't under inspection. I think the reason I wasn't banned was because I was right, (still believe this) but I am really surprised I wasn't warned for that post now that I come back to it much later. It was angry and therefore surprisingly rude! I apologize to those to whom I said that.

1. Being a person does not make you a good person.
2. Being an executive of a company does NOT make you a bad person! THAT is what makes me angry! I know corporate executives who do a LOT more GOOD (as in saving lives!) than most of the fools who hate them will ever do!

That is the only excuse I have for such troll. I don't think "simpletons" was appropriate. I should have explained myself.

Thank you whitedog.
If you think Elon Musk is a Nazi, it is because YOU radicalized him!
[UoN]Sentinel
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States11320 Posts
January 21 2012 03:42 GMT
#3836
On January 21 2012 10:01 Jrocker152 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 19 2011 04:03 WhiteDog wrote:
On November 19 2011 02:49 Jrocker152 wrote:
On September 18 2011 08:17 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
On September 18 2011 08:10 TOloseGT wrote:
I have two friends working on Wall Street and believe it or not, they're people, lol.


Are they executives by any chance?

But if you can bring them onto TL and they can give their side of the story (or simply tell you so you can post up here), I'd be happy to hear it

Simpletons.

I don't understand why that kind of troll is not banned...

The whole story about Fox News is hillarious, I mean how can they talk so freely about the OWSer ?

I got angry about how often people say things that look relevant but really aren't under inspection. I think the reason I wasn't banned was because I was right, (still believe this) but I am really surprised I wasn't warned for that post now that I come back to it much later. It was angry and therefore surprisingly rude! I apologize to those to whom I said that.

1. Being a person does not make you a good person.
2. Being an executive of a company does NOT make you a bad person! THAT is what makes me angry! I know corporate executives who do a LOT more GOOD (as in saving lives!) than most of the fools who hate them will ever do!

That is the only excuse I have for such troll. I don't think "simpletons" was appropriate. I should have explained myself.

Thank you whitedog.


Wow, I'm surprised this thread is still alive. And even more surprised that I'm somehow involved in the dialogue.

But anyways, I'm not saying executives are bad. In fact I just wanted someone who's part of the 1% to come and talk to TL in those dark, early days of the movement.

And yeah, since September I've been taking an economics class, we were watching a movie about "good greed" how self-interest motivates the top people to provide for everyone else in the hopes of profitting, and this is why for-profit companies have that much better output than nonprofit companies, ethics be damned.

It's not that they're "nice" to everyone, nobody is. Humans simply don't have that ability. That's why when a random person in the world dies every 2 seconds we're not affected. But being benevolent, while still seeking profits, that's just being a good executive.
Нас зовет дух отцов, память старых бойцов, дух Москвы и твердыня Полтавы
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
January 29 2012 02:58 GMT
#3837
Massive arrests happening in Oakland right now.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Phenny
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia1435 Posts
January 29 2012 03:10 GMT
#3838
http://www.ustream.tv/occupyoakland

Police boxing everyone in.
I dont understand the flashbangs, gas, rubber bullets and beanbag stuff, dont US citizens have the right to freedom of assembly or did people actually get violent?
caradoc
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada3022 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-29 03:20:43
January 29 2012 03:15 GMT
#3839
Apparently, people were kettled, and when people started tearing down the barriers, mass arrests, flashbangs, tear gas, rubber bullets... so far 20 arrested, over 100 detained.

might turn into a shitstorm, apparently the kettling was videod, though I dont know the legality of it in the US.

EDIT: over 100 arrested.
Salvation a la mode and a cup of tea...
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
January 29 2012 03:21 GMT
#3840
Police spokesman just now says flash bombs WERE used, claims three police hurt, one taken to hospital. Claims no detainees hurt. Says 100 detained now. Claims bottles thrown at police and had to act when "buildings broken into." Spokesman has no response to charge that police gave folks no chance to leave and not be arrested.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
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