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Occupy Wall Street - Page 190

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AttackZerg
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States7454 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-12 20:15:12
December 12 2011 16:43 GMT
#3781
Hello everybody!

I assume a lot of you do not have the time to check each of the various ports as the day goes on, so I'll be posting updates as I get them, the time of my writing this is 8:38 a.m on 12/12/11. As of right now the Port of Oakland has already been closed for the day. Also, the port of Portland has announced its closure for the day.

As of right now in Long Beach, Police (My internet ustream guess-timate- about 100-120) in riot gear are launching a three pronged attacked on the road blockage, and threatening to use lrad, dogs, projectiles, and chemical agents on the protesters, even if they leave the street in favor of the sidewalk, the police are demanding on loud speaker that they retreat all the way back to the occupation, which I guess is on the otherwise of a bridge (fourth party internet knowledge).

Out of San Francisco, a middle-aged female protester has claimed to be assaulted by a police officer, who wield and struck her twice in the legs with a baton.


The National Gaurd, have been sighted and confirmed, in Long Beach, and Oakland.

I'll update the more, I can, if you happen to read this please share or add something.


Edit: these are the official and confirmed reports taken directly from Occupywallst.org

Oakland

10:00AM PST: It has been confirmed that the ILWU union arbiter has told the first shift at the Port of Oakland not to work. The port of Oakland is CLOSED. Protesters danced and celebrated in front of lines of riot police at the entrance of the port. Occupy Oakland plans to rally at 3PM PST and return at 4PM PST for the second shift.
Los Angeles / Port of Long Beach

10:43AM PST: Most of the Occupiers have been dispersed from the pier entrance by the police's threat of employing brutal force. They are currently marching on highways.
9:50AM PST: Protesters began the day by picketing in front of SSA Marine, a shipping company owned by Goldman Sachs. Hundreds then marched into the streets and took over the intersection this morning and are still there. They have set up a tent, flags, and banners to prevent access to the pier. Blocks-long lines of police cars are further blocking traffic. The entrance to the pier has been closed for the past few hours, and shipments are backed along the highway. The blockade has been corralled by riot police, who are gathering in large groups and have threatened to use (and may have already used) chemical weapons, dog bites, rubber bullets, beanbag guns, and tear gas. After an attack from police, at least one nonviolent protester has been violently arrested.
Portland

9:58AM PST: Mainstream media reported earlier this morning that the port has shut down. Groups of several hundred protesters each are blocking various terminal entrances to the port. Several terminals are confirmed to be closed. Reports of riot police mobilizing.
Seattle / Longview

10:00AM PST: From Occupy Seattle: Occupy Longview has effectively SHUT DOWN the terminals and they're moving on to the EGT offices! ILWU workers go home with pay. In solidarity with the West Coast Port Shutdown and Occupy Longview, come on down to Westlake for a rally at 1pm! We'll head to the Port from there!
San Diego

11:30AM PST: This morning, Occupiers gathered at Chicano Park and then headed to Caesar Chavez Park in a march led by veterans to set up a picket line. The street and entrance to the port were closed four hours ago and remained closed for around one hour. Around three hours ago, police in riot gear moved in. Protesters were tossed on the ground and tackled by San Diego police and Harbor Police. Cameras from media were also taken and smashed on the ground. Occupiers were eventually forced from the intersection and the port is now open. However, demonstrations remain nearby.
Houston

2:00AM CST: Several protesters are using nonviolent civil disobedience to close lanes. Port of Houston sucessfully shut down. Police on horses reported on the scene. Protesters are chanting "Who do you protect? Who do you serve?"
Anchorage

10:00AM AKST: A rally is planned at Town Square at 1:00PM AKST followed by a march to the port.
MasterBlasterCaster
Profile Joined October 2011
United States568 Posts
December 12 2011 17:47 GMT
#3782
Yeah! Let's show the common working man that we care about him by shutting down his job and getting in his way! YEAH!

And then we'll be super smart and shut down the trade coming in and out of ports! Yeah! That'll be GREAT for the economy! Great idea!

I swear to God, the entitlement complex is getting rigoddammdiculous.
semantics
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
10040 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-12 20:19:43
December 12 2011 20:18 GMT
#3783
On December 13 2011 02:47 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
Yeah! Let's show the common working man that we care about him by shutting down his job and getting in his way! YEAH!

And then we'll be super smart and shut down the trade coming in and out of ports! Yeah! That'll be GREAT for the economy! Great idea!

I swear to God, the entitlement complex is getting rigoddammdiculous.

Depends how you frame it, would you say that i punish the salves if i shut down a plantation for mis treating it's "workers" in the 1800's?

Seems like master blaster listen to a lot of republican radio that have been branding the word entitlement with negative connotations sense the mid 80's to which they have worked to push out things like medicare/cade and social security, but now they re-targeted at the occupy movement.

Entitlement is funny thing to blame people of having, a society is based off entitlement. How does the rich keep all their money though entitlements, what is a loan a loan is a promise of entitlement. Perhaps people shouldn't be entitled to rights, right are entitlements, yes outside of just being mobile enough not to die in the streets, that's what you think enough entitlement for our society to have. A society is based off of set rules by the people to which it governors, are you saying that people to which it's under are not entitled to a voice that is the whole basis of a representative democracy to which our republic is built on.

Although you may feel their actions are ill-advised, i don't see you bring out solid ideas. What do you want them to do raid the mansions of the elite? Perhaps you still think of war only involving those who wish to fight. Delusions that you can strike at those at the top of society without effects those below them is just silly. The point is a show of support is still there even after all the crack down on the camps in the west coast, that just becuase you pushed them out of the public eye doesn't mean that their opinions went away as well.

Perhaps you should read what they have to say instead of just going, their stupid children.
http://westcoastportshutdown.org/content/why-shut-down-west-coast-ports
to which i'm doing right after i post my thoughts here.
AttackZerg
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States7454 Posts
December 12 2011 20:19 GMT
#3784
On December 13 2011 02:47 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
Yeah! Let's show the common working man that we care about him by shutting down his job and getting in his way! YEAH!

And then we'll be super smart and shut down the trade coming in and out of ports! Yeah! That'll be GREAT for the economy! Great idea!

I swear to God, the entitlement complex is getting rigoddammdiculous.


this is a letter from the truckers:
Source

We are the front-line workers who haul container rigs full of imported and exported goods to and from the docks and warehouses every day.

We have been elected by committees of our co-workers at the Ports of Los Angeles, Long Beach, Oakland, Seattle, Tacoma, New York and New Jersey to tell our collective story. We have accepted the honor to speak up for our brothers and sisters about our working conditions despite the risk of retaliation we face. One of us is a mother, the rest of us fathers. Between the five of us we have 7 children and one more baby on the way. We have a combined 46 years of experience driving cargo from our shores for America’s stores.

We are inspired that a non-violent democratic movement that insists on basic economic fairness is capturing the hearts and minds of so many working people. Thank you “99 Percenters” for hearing our call for justice. We are humbled and overwhelmed by recent attention. Normally we are invisible.

Today’s demonstrations will impact us. While we cannot officially speak for every worker who shares our occupation, we can use this opportunity to reveal what it’s like to walk a day in our shoes for the 110,000 of us in America whose job it is to be a port truck driver. It may be tempting for media to ask questions about whether we support a shutdown, but there are no easy answers. Instead, we ask you, are you willing to listen and learn why a one-word response is impossible?

We love being behind the wheel. We are proud of the work we do to keep America’s economy moving. But we feel humiliated when we receive paychecks that suggest we work part time at a fast-food counter. Especially when we work an average of 60 or more hours a week, away from our families.

There is so much at stake in our industry. It is one of the nation’s most dangerous occupations. We don’t think truck driving should be a dead-end road in America. It should be a good job with a middle-class paycheck like it used to be decades ago.

We desperately want to drive clean and safe vehicles. Rigs that do not fill our lungs with deadly toxins, or dirty the air in the communities we haul in.

Poverty and pollution are like a plague at the ports. Our economic conditions are what led to the environmental crisis.

You, the public, have paid a severe price along with us.

Why? Just like Wall Street doesn’t have to abide by rules, our industry isn’t bound to regulation. So the market is run by con artists. The companies we work for call us independent contractors, as if we were our own bosses, but they boss us around. We receive Third World wages and drive sweatshops on wheels. We cannot negotiate our rates. (Usually we are not allowed to even see them.) We are paid by the load, not by the hour. So when we sit in those long lines at the terminals, or if we are stuck in traffic, we become volunteers who basically donate our time to the trucking and shipping companies. That’s the nice way to put it. We have all heard the words “modern-day slaves” at the lunch stops.

There are no restrooms for drivers. We keep empty bottles in our cabs. Plastic bags too. We feel like dogs. An Oakland driver was recently banned from the terminal because he was spied relieving himself behind a container. Neither the port, nor the terminal operators or anyone in the industry thinks it is their responsibility to provide humane and hygienic facilities for us. It is absolutely horrible for drivers who are women, who risk infection when they try to hold it until they can find a place to go.

The companies demand we cut corners to compete. It makes our roads less safe. When we try to blow the whistle about skipped inspections, faulty equipment, or falsified logs, then we are “starved out.” That means we are either fired outright, or more likely, we never get dispatched to haul a load again.

It may be difficult to comprehend the complex issues and nature of our employment. For us too. When businesses disguise workers like us as contractors, the Department of Labor calls it misclassification. We call it illegal. Those who profit from global trade and goods movement are getting away with it because everyone is doing it. One journalist took the time to talk to us this week and she explains it very well to outsiders. We hope you will read the enclosed article “How Goldman Sachs and Other Companies Exploit Port Truck Drivers.”

But the short answer to the question: Why are companies like SSA Marine, the Seattle-based global terminal operator that runs one of the West Coast’s major trucking carriers, Shippers’ Transport Express, doing this? Why would mega-rich Maersk, a huge Danish shipping and trucking conglomerate that wants to drill for more oil with Exxon Mobil in the Gulf Coast conduct business this way too?

To cheat on taxes, drive down business costs, and deny us the right to belong to a union, that’s why.

The typical arrangement works like this: Everything comes out of our pockets or is deducted from our paychecks. The truck or lease, fuel, insurance, registration, you name it. Our employers do not have to pay the costs of meeting emissions-compliant regulations; that is our financial burden to bear. Clean trucks cost about four to five times more than what we take home in a year. A few of us haul our company’s trucks for a tiny fraction of what the shippers pay per load instead of an hourly wage. They still call us independent owner-operators and give us a 1099 rather than a W-2.

We have never recovered from losing our basic rights as employees in America. Every year it literally goes from bad to worse to the unimaginable. We were ground zero for the government’s first major experiment into letting big business call the shots. Since it worked so well for the CEOs in transportation, why not the mortgage and banking industry too?

Even the few of us who are hired as legitimate employees are routinely denied our legal rights under this system. Just ask our co-workers who haul clothing brands like Guess?, Under Armour, and Ralph Lauren’s Polo. The carrier they work for in Los Angeles is called Toll Group and is headquartered in Australia. At the busiest time of the holiday shopping season, 26 drivers were axed after wearing Teamster T-shirts to work. They were protesting the lack of access to clean, indoor restrooms with running water. The company hired an anti-union consultant to intimidate the drivers. Down Under, the same company bargains with 12,000 of our counterparts in good faith.

Despite our great hardships, many of us cannot — or refuse to, as some of the most well-intentioned suggest — “just quit.” First, we want to work and do not have a safety net. Many of us are tied to one-sided leases. But more importantly, why should we have to leave? Truck driving is what we do, and we do it well.

We are the skilled, specially-licensed professionals who guarantee that Target, Best Buy, and Wal-Mart are all stocked with just-in-time delivery for consumers. Take a look at all the stuff in your house. The things you see advertised on TV. Chances are a port truck driver brought that special holiday gift to the store you bought it.

We would rather stick together and transform our industry from within. We deserve to be fairly rewarded and valued. That is why we have united to stage convoys, park our trucks, marched on the boss, and even shut down these ports.

It’s like our hero Dutch Prior, a Shipper’s/SSA Marine driver, told CBS Early Morning this month: “If you don’t stand for something, you’ll fall for anything.”

The more underwater we are, the more our restlessness grows. We are being thoughtful about how best to organize ourselves and do what is needed to win dignity, respect, and justice.

Nowadays greedy corporations are treated as “people” while the politicians they bankroll cast union members who try to improve their workplaces as “thugs.”

But we believe in the power and potential behind a truly united 99%. We admire the strength and perseverance of the longshoremen. We are fighting like mad to overcome our exploitation, so please, stick by us long after December 12. Our friends in the Coalition for Clean & Safe Ports created a pledge you can sign to support us here.

We drivers have a saying, “We may not have a union yet, but no one can stop us from acting like one.”

The brothers and sisters of the Teamsters have our backs. They help us make our voices heard. But we need your help too so we can achieve the day where we raise our fists and together declare: “No one could stop us from forming a union.”

Thank you.

In solidarity,

Leonardo Mejia
SSA Marine/Shippers Transport Express
Port of Long Beach
10-year driver

Yemane Berhane
Ports of Seattle & Tacoma
6-year port driver

Xiomara Perez
Toll Group
Port of Los Angeles
8-year driver

Abdul Khan
Port of Oakland
7-year port driver

Ramiro Gotay
Ports of New York & New Jersey
5-year port driver


MasterBlasterCaster
Profile Joined October 2011
United States568 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-12 20:28:29
December 12 2011 20:26 GMT
#3785
would you say that i punish the salves if i shut down a plantation for mis treating it's "workers" in the 1800's?

Stop right there and don't ever go any further. Do not ever compare yourself or your bullshit "struggles" to the slaves ever again. Have you ever been sold at a block, boy? Have you had your family torn apart? Has your wife and children been separated from you forever? Have you been whipped by your master because you got "uppity" and looked at something other than his shoes? No? Well then where the fck do you get off comparing yourself to them? Get the fuck out of here with that BS.

Entitlement is funny thing to blame people of having

Do you know what an entitlement complex is?

are you saying that people to which it's under are not entitled to a voice

Name one person in the US that has been prevented from speaking politically in the last 30 years. Go ahead, I'll wait. No one? Oh well then, I guess we'll just have to find out why you think this point is even remotely relevant.

Although you may feel their actions are ill-advised, i don't see you bring out solid ideas

How about... and this is a totally crazy idea here, YOU VOTE! How about not doing everything within your power to alienate everyone? Is that so hard? How about not being violent? How about following the law? No? Too rational for you?

Perhaps you should read what they have to say instead of just going, their stupid children.

Why should I bother? They have shown me nothing but irresponsibility and law-breaking. It is now up to them to prove themselves worthy of my attention; because so far, they've only proven that they are everything the opposition says they are.

edit: you found five people who agreed with you. wonderful. only 300,000,000 more to go!
HappyChris
Profile Joined October 2011
1534 Posts
December 12 2011 20:28 GMT
#3786
On December 13 2011 05:19 AttackZerg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 13 2011 02:47 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
Yeah! Let's show the common working man that we care about him by shutting down his job and getting in his way! YEAH!

And then we'll be super smart and shut down the trade coming in and out of ports! Yeah! That'll be GREAT for the economy! Great idea!

I swear to God, the entitlement complex is getting rigoddammdiculous.


this is a letter from the truckers:
Source

We are the front-line workers who haul container rigs full of imported and exported goods to and from the docks and warehouses every day.

We have been elected by committees of our co-workers at the Ports of Los Angeles, Long Beach, Oakland, Seattle, Tacoma, New York and New Jersey to tell our collective story. We have accepted the honor to speak up for our brothers and sisters about our working conditions despite the risk of retaliation we face. One of us is a mother, the rest of us fathers. Between the five of us we have 7 children and one more baby on the way. We have a combined 46 years of experience driving cargo from our shores for America’s stores.

We are inspired that a non-violent democratic movement that insists on basic economic fairness is capturing the hearts and minds of so many working people. Thank you “99 Percenters” for hearing our call for justice. We are humbled and overwhelmed by recent attention. Normally we are invisible.

Today’s demonstrations will impact us. While we cannot officially speak for every worker who shares our occupation, we can use this opportunity to reveal what it’s like to walk a day in our shoes for the 110,000 of us in America whose job it is to be a port truck driver. It may be tempting for media to ask questions about whether we support a shutdown, but there are no easy answers. Instead, we ask you, are you willing to listen and learn why a one-word response is impossible?

We love being behind the wheel. We are proud of the work we do to keep America’s economy moving. But we feel humiliated when we receive paychecks that suggest we work part time at a fast-food counter. Especially when we work an average of 60 or more hours a week, away from our families.

There is so much at stake in our industry. It is one of the nation’s most dangerous occupations. We don’t think truck driving should be a dead-end road in America. It should be a good job with a middle-class paycheck like it used to be decades ago.

We desperately want to drive clean and safe vehicles. Rigs that do not fill our lungs with deadly toxins, or dirty the air in the communities we haul in.

Poverty and pollution are like a plague at the ports. Our economic conditions are what led to the environmental crisis.

You, the public, have paid a severe price along with us.

Why? Just like Wall Street doesn’t have to abide by rules, our industry isn’t bound to regulation. So the market is run by con artists. The companies we work for call us independent contractors, as if we were our own bosses, but they boss us around. We receive Third World wages and drive sweatshops on wheels. We cannot negotiate our rates. (Usually we are not allowed to even see them.) We are paid by the load, not by the hour. So when we sit in those long lines at the terminals, or if we are stuck in traffic, we become volunteers who basically donate our time to the trucking and shipping companies. That’s the nice way to put it. We have all heard the words “modern-day slaves” at the lunch stops.

There are no restrooms for drivers. We keep empty bottles in our cabs. Plastic bags too. We feel like dogs. An Oakland driver was recently banned from the terminal because he was spied relieving himself behind a container. Neither the port, nor the terminal operators or anyone in the industry thinks it is their responsibility to provide humane and hygienic facilities for us. It is absolutely horrible for drivers who are women, who risk infection when they try to hold it until they can find a place to go.

The companies demand we cut corners to compete. It makes our roads less safe. When we try to blow the whistle about skipped inspections, faulty equipment, or falsified logs, then we are “starved out.” That means we are either fired outright, or more likely, we never get dispatched to haul a load again.

It may be difficult to comprehend the complex issues and nature of our employment. For us too. When businesses disguise workers like us as contractors, the Department of Labor calls it misclassification. We call it illegal. Those who profit from global trade and goods movement are getting away with it because everyone is doing it. One journalist took the time to talk to us this week and she explains it very well to outsiders. We hope you will read the enclosed article “How Goldman Sachs and Other Companies Exploit Port Truck Drivers.”

But the short answer to the question: Why are companies like SSA Marine, the Seattle-based global terminal operator that runs one of the West Coast’s major trucking carriers, Shippers’ Transport Express, doing this? Why would mega-rich Maersk, a huge Danish shipping and trucking conglomerate that wants to drill for more oil with Exxon Mobil in the Gulf Coast conduct business this way too?

To cheat on taxes, drive down business costs, and deny us the right to belong to a union, that’s why.

The typical arrangement works like this: Everything comes out of our pockets or is deducted from our paychecks. The truck or lease, fuel, insurance, registration, you name it. Our employers do not have to pay the costs of meeting emissions-compliant regulations; that is our financial burden to bear. Clean trucks cost about four to five times more than what we take home in a year. A few of us haul our company’s trucks for a tiny fraction of what the shippers pay per load instead of an hourly wage. They still call us independent owner-operators and give us a 1099 rather than a W-2.

We have never recovered from losing our basic rights as employees in America. Every year it literally goes from bad to worse to the unimaginable. We were ground zero for the government’s first major experiment into letting big business call the shots. Since it worked so well for the CEOs in transportation, why not the mortgage and banking industry too?

Even the few of us who are hired as legitimate employees are routinely denied our legal rights under this system. Just ask our co-workers who haul clothing brands like Guess?, Under Armour, and Ralph Lauren’s Polo. The carrier they work for in Los Angeles is called Toll Group and is headquartered in Australia. At the busiest time of the holiday shopping season, 26 drivers were axed after wearing Teamster T-shirts to work. They were protesting the lack of access to clean, indoor restrooms with running water. The company hired an anti-union consultant to intimidate the drivers. Down Under, the same company bargains with 12,000 of our counterparts in good faith.

Despite our great hardships, many of us cannot — or refuse to, as some of the most well-intentioned suggest — “just quit.” First, we want to work and do not have a safety net. Many of us are tied to one-sided leases. But more importantly, why should we have to leave? Truck driving is what we do, and we do it well.

We are the skilled, specially-licensed professionals who guarantee that Target, Best Buy, and Wal-Mart are all stocked with just-in-time delivery for consumers. Take a look at all the stuff in your house. The things you see advertised on TV. Chances are a port truck driver brought that special holiday gift to the store you bought it.

We would rather stick together and transform our industry from within. We deserve to be fairly rewarded and valued. That is why we have united to stage convoys, park our trucks, marched on the boss, and even shut down these ports.

It’s like our hero Dutch Prior, a Shipper’s/SSA Marine driver, told CBS Early Morning this month: “If you don’t stand for something, you’ll fall for anything.”

The more underwater we are, the more our restlessness grows. We are being thoughtful about how best to organize ourselves and do what is needed to win dignity, respect, and justice.

Nowadays greedy corporations are treated as “people” while the politicians they bankroll cast union members who try to improve their workplaces as “thugs.”

But we believe in the power and potential behind a truly united 99%. We admire the strength and perseverance of the longshoremen. We are fighting like mad to overcome our exploitation, so please, stick by us long after December 12. Our friends in the Coalition for Clean & Safe Ports created a pledge you can sign to support us here.

We drivers have a saying, “We may not have a union yet, but no one can stop us from acting like one.”

The brothers and sisters of the Teamsters have our backs. They help us make our voices heard. But we need your help too so we can achieve the day where we raise our fists and together declare: “No one could stop us from forming a union.”

Thank you.

In solidarity,

Leonardo Mejia
SSA Marine/Shippers Transport Express
Port of Long Beach
10-year driver

Yemane Berhane
Ports of Seattle & Tacoma
6-year port driver

Xiomara Perez
Toll Group
Port of Los Angeles
8-year driver

Abdul Khan
Port of Oakland
7-year port driver

Ramiro Gotay
Ports of New York & New Jersey
5-year port driver




Really moving letter
FryktSkyene
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1327 Posts
December 12 2011 20:30 GMT
#3787
Is there a rough estimate on how many people have been arrested in total over all OWS not just NY?
Snitches get stiches
MasterBlasterCaster
Profile Joined October 2011
United States568 Posts
December 12 2011 20:40 GMT
#3788
On December 13 2011 05:30 FryktSkyene wrote:
Is there a rough estimate on how many people have been arrested in total over all OWS not just NY?

Over 5,000
Mordanis
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States893 Posts
December 12 2011 20:52 GMT
#3789
For a couple of months I've not really cared about this. Now, in the last couple of weeks, some idiots have realized that their movement is losing the national spotlight, and so they close ports. Fucking ridiculous. Seizing ports is what nations do to each other a protracted war. I don't know if this is another case of "a small portion which does not represent the 99%" like it was when other people tried to close a port weeks ago. The taking of harmful military action, by both police and the protesters, should not be tolerated by anyone. That letter really is evidence that there should be change, but the closing of the ports is like someone who shoots himself in the foot to get his point across. You pay attention to him, and maybe agree, but only because he has a gun in his hand. The second the police take him to a psychiatric ward, you go on with your life and forget. Violence will ruin whatever has been gained by the occupiers.
I love the smell of napalm in the morning... it smells like... victory. -_^ Favorite SC2 match ->Liquid`HerO vs. SlayerS CranK g.1 @MLG Summer Championship
Falling
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada11350 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-12 20:56:29
December 12 2011 20:54 GMT
#3790
On December 13 2011 05:26 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
Show nested quote +
Although you may feel their actions are ill-advised, i don't see you bring out solid ideas

How about... and this is a totally crazy idea here, YOU VOTE! How about not doing everything within your power to alienate everyone? Is that so hard? How about not being violent? How about following the law? No? Too rational for you?

Show nested quote +
Perhaps you should read what they have to say instead of just going, their stupid children.

Why should I bother? They have shown me nothing but irresponsibility and law-breaking. It is now up to them to prove themselves worthy of my attention; because so far, they've only proven that they are everything the opposition says they are.

edit: you found five people who agreed with you. wonderful. only 300,000,000 more to go!



Because maybe just maybe there is so much money being flooded into both parties from big corporations that neither party is willing to change the status quo. As far as I can see, lobbying has gotten so far out of control as a form of legal bribery, keeping politicians on the payroll of companies. After receiving 100K or more from specific companies for your election campaign I don't at all see how you legitimately can remain unbiased in dealing with business regulation, labour relations, and crony capitalism.

You seem to be under the delusion that voting is the only legal and effective way to enact change. That the labour laws and civil rights movement and even women's suffrage for that matter would simply occurred if more people voted. There's a reason protests are supposed to be legal. The system is not always going to work for the best of the people due to things like corporate interests. So protesting and yes, civil disobedience is a necessary and effective method of creating political change. The right of assembly specifically in protest was not always recognized in the 20's and 30's. People fought for that right and you seem intent on abolishing it.

Legal protest and subsequent change of policy is a necessary safety valve in a modern society. Without it, I think revolution is possible.
Moderator"In Trump We Trust," says the Golden Goat of Mars Lago. Have faith and believe! Trump moves in mysterious ways. Like the wind he blows where he pleases...
taLbuk
Profile Joined April 2010
Madagascar1879 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-12 20:57:24
December 12 2011 20:57 GMT
#3791
i don't mind the peaceful protests in the parks etc, and think its lame that the police basically force them out with brute force and arrest them because it is illegal to have tents up , but when you forcefully occupy a port don't whine to the media when the police get you out asap using whatever necessary means
semantics
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
10040 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-12 21:04:14
December 12 2011 21:00 GMT
#3792
On December 13 2011 05:26 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
Show nested quote +
would you say that i punish the salves if i shut down a plantation for mis treating it's "workers" in the 1800's?

Stop right there and don't ever go any further. Do not ever compare yourself or your bullshit "struggles" to the slaves ever again. Have you ever been sold at a block, boy? Have you had your family torn apart? Has your wife and children been separated from you forever? Have you been whipped by your master because you got "uppity" and looked at something other than his shoes? No? Well then where the fck do you get off comparing yourself to them? Get the fuck out of here with that BS.

Show nested quote +
Entitlement is funny thing to blame people of having

Do you know what an entitlement complex is?

Show nested quote +
are you saying that people to which it's under are not entitled to a voice

Name one person in the US that has been prevented from speaking politically in the last 30 years. Go ahead, I'll wait. No one? Oh well then, I guess we'll just have to find out why you think this point is even remotely relevant.

Show nested quote +
Although you may feel their actions are ill-advised, i don't see you bring out solid ideas

How about... and this is a totally crazy idea here, YOU VOTE! How about not doing everything within your power to alienate everyone? Is that so hard? How about not being violent? How about following the law? No? Too rational for you?

Show nested quote +
Perhaps you should read what they have to say instead of just going, their stupid children.

Why should I bother? They have shown me nothing but irresponsibility and law-breaking. It is now up to them to prove themselves worthy of my attention; because so far, they've only proven that they are everything the opposition says they are.

edit: you found five people who agreed with you. wonderful. only 300,000,000 more to go!

you're pretty bad at reading analogies or perhaps bad at history. I never said i was the slave i if anything i'm a abolitionist(who were often well off religious white men, as black abolitionist were often not american) in that analogy and the middle class workers of america are the slaves. The point was to show the delusion of saying that just becuase i put more stress on the bottom doesn't mean it's not worth striking the top, or didn't you know that during the raising of the abolitionist movement in the US southern state became more belligerent and aggressive to how they treated slaves, often having laws on the book which were never followed but help to try to appease the northerns distaste for "productivity", with your logic you'd say it's not a good idea as you're causing more harm to the slaves. But perhaps i expected too much of you to know history in detail.

You also say just vote, but then again that just shows how little you pay attention to the movements. There are strong voting movements brought up by the occupy groups, but at the same time there is a malaise about voting on a national scale as in order to get information out there about a candidate you need alot of money, to which if you're movement is about inequality in wealth and income it's hard to come by and the traditional routs of just spending shit ton of money and flooding the air waves works.

Just saying something is wrong becuase it's breaking a law is not being a good citizen. Perhaps it's an unjust law or a just law being wrongly enforced. You want a society in which no one is connected and no one bothers anyone, yet that is the total opposite of a society. People aren't islands, it's rather selfish to think that to each his own applies like this in a world of globalism. And you don't seem to understand a premise that if the top 1% deeply influence those who make laws that not all laws are representative of the people to which they govern.

You spout shit like how about not being violent, well why don't you not be violent, let's package you up into a demographic and see how many commit violence so i can claim that you're violent. To say the occupy movement is violent is spitting on people. Perhaps the next time i read an article on police brutality, i'll just remember to label all police officers are just like that one person. Read articles and go out there and interact with them, then go give a label to the group otherwise you're misinformed and spouting harmful hearsay.
Falling
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada11350 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-12 21:07:08
December 12 2011 21:05 GMT
#3793
On December 13 2011 05:57 taLbuk wrote:
i don't mind the peaceful protests in the parks etc, and think its lame that the police basically force them out with brute force and arrest them because it is illegal to have tents up , but when you forcefully occupy a port don't whine to the media when the police get you out asap using whatever necessary means


Maybe so, but I do think it is a predictable response. People were okay with the Parks protest and maybe the university protest (retrospectively and in comparison to the latest protest- I seem to recall a lot of moaning and groaning during those as well.) But it get's shut down with little response from the top and little evidence of change. So where peaceful park protests were met with forceful expulsion and arrests, escalating the situation, the problem has not gone away so the protest response will escalate as well. Demands are not being met, they've been thrown out of their non-intrusive areas of protest. If they truly believe in their cause, the next step is to create an even bigger stir. Shut down something even bigger.

I'm curious to see how the Occupy movement fairs in the middle of winter, but in general of there are no carrot is offered, that big stick is going create a bigger response each time.
Moderator"In Trump We Trust," says the Golden Goat of Mars Lago. Have faith and believe! Trump moves in mysterious ways. Like the wind he blows where he pleases...
MasterBlasterCaster
Profile Joined October 2011
United States568 Posts
December 12 2011 21:06 GMT
#3794
Every single occupy protest so far has either resulted in violence or property damage. The movement has stained itself.

As to the voting, most of the statements coming from Occupy not only outright say that they "reject electoral solutions" but they also can't even get on the same page of what it is that they want changed or solved, or how. They are not even trying to vote.

The laws that occupy has been breaking are not in any way unjust or wrong.

I can see that we are just not going to agree on this, and it is becoming difficult for me to argue about it without becoming emotional and confrontational, so I will bow out for now.
Microsloth
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada194 Posts
December 12 2011 21:12 GMT
#3795
Why won't this thread just die already.

You join massive crowds of people and collectively break known laws in an effort to draw attention to your "cause"
The you complain about police brutality when they use the force necessary to enforce laws. (Force that under normal circumstances would never be used, but now they're dealing with crowds of people, and are still tasked with keeping order)

The mob mentality of humans is so retarded.
Double digit APM. ftw?
Falling
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada11350 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-12 21:16:32
December 12 2011 21:15 GMT
#3796
On December 13 2011 06:06 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
Every single occupy protest so far has either resulted in violence or property damage. The movement has stained itself.

As to the voting, most of the statements coming from Occupy not only outright say that they "reject electoral solutions" but they also can't even get on the same page of what it is that they want changed or solved, or how. They are not even trying to vote.

The laws that occupy has been breaking are not in any way unjust or wrong.

I can see that we are just not going to agree on this, and it is becoming difficult for me to argue about it without becoming emotional and confrontational, so I will bow out for now.


What on a wide scale or fringe elements? You make it sound like it was the Vancouver riot (that was embarrassing.) By and large the movement has been peaceful and respectful- watch any of the streaming vids like wearetheother99. Live and uncut, rather the soundbites from the mainstream media that only highlight the most extreme elements: their vested interest is to sell a news story and peaceful protest doesn't sell. The movement has been stained by mainstream media that refuses to separate fringe elements from the vast majority of Occupy members.

They would reject electoral solutions because corporatism has too heavily influenced the system. It doesn't matter who you vote in, Democrat or Republican. Unless you vote for an ideologue like Ron Paul (hopefully less extreme than him) you're probably getting a politician with vested corporate interests.
Moderator"In Trump We Trust," says the Golden Goat of Mars Lago. Have faith and believe! Trump moves in mysterious ways. Like the wind he blows where he pleases...
storm8ring3r
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany227 Posts
December 12 2011 21:19 GMT
#3797
This movemvent makes me want to join the riot police. Thank you all for wasting our time and treasure
follow chobopeon on twitter
AttackZerg
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States7454 Posts
December 12 2011 21:21 GMT
#3798
On December 13 2011 06:06 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
Every single occupy protest so far has either resulted in violence or property damage. The movement has stained itself.



I'm not a big fan of debating the occupy movement, because I firmly believe that over time this is just a world wide culture shift, but now you have gone from "blah blah blah protesters are doing illegal things" to out and out bullshit and factual falsehoods.

You can provide zero sources that the occupy movement in all 4000~ encampments worldwide and the 2500~ or so domestic encampments have done either of the things you have stated.

You sir, are a liar, a troll, and the worst type of person - an uninformed one.

I am not educated. I am not able to solve the problems of the world, but I can put my foot down and say "no more" to injustice. I don't know whether you were born with a lack of mental facilitation required to make intelligible responses, or if you choose to "pretend" to be this way, either way, knock it off.

I 100% love people who oppose the movement and the dialogue and opinions they provide me to learn from, but you don't even provide counter idea's. Come back after you read the hit list of 30 demands from occupywallst.org, choose the ones you disagree with and bring the dialogue back with facts and a counter idea on how to promote some of the needed changes using means that aren't already being utilized.
MasterBlasterCaster
Profile Joined October 2011
United States568 Posts
December 12 2011 21:35 GMT
#3799
Why should I pay one bit of attention to their ideas? Or their goals? Why should I offer "counter-ideas" when I find their very premise to be despicable?

I don't know whether you were born with a lack of mental facilitation required to make intelligible responses, or if you choose to "pretend" to be this way, either way, knock it off.

I thought my response was perfectly intelligible. The Occupy movement has stained themselves with their own actions. It is up to them to convince me otherwise now. They lost their chance for open mindedness when they decided to stop protesting and start breaking the law and getting into people's way.
Mordanis
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States893 Posts
December 12 2011 21:49 GMT
#3800
On December 13 2011 06:21 AttackZerg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 13 2011 06:06 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
Every single occupy protest so far has either resulted in violence or property damage. The movement has stained itself.



I'm not a big fan of debating the occupy movement, because I firmly believe that over time this is just a world wide culture shift, but now you have gone from "blah blah blah protesters are doing illegal things" to out and out bullshit and factual falsehoods.

You can provide zero sources that the occupy movement in all 4000~ encampments worldwide and the 2500~ or so domestic encampments have done either of the things you have stated.

You sir, are a liar, a troll, and the worst type of person - an uninformed one.

I am not educated. I am not able to solve the problems of the world, but I can put my foot down and say "no more" to injustice. I don't know whether you were born with a lack of mental facilitation required to make intelligible responses, or if you choose to "pretend" to be this way, either way, knock it off.

I 100% love people who oppose the movement and the dialogue and opinions they provide me to learn from, but you don't even provide counter idea's. Come back after you read the hit list of 30 demands from occupywallst.org, choose the ones you disagree with and bring the dialogue back with facts and a counter idea on how to promote some of the needed changes using means that aren't already being utilized.

Do you really think that being uninformed is the worst thing that a person can be? Stalin knew exactly what he was doing as he killed thousands of people, Catiline knew what he was doing when he tried to end the Roman Republic in such a way as to bring profit to himself and make the world much worse for thousands of people, and the list goes on. Your statement scares me infinitely more than someone who is merely uninformed.
I love the smell of napalm in the morning... it smells like... victory. -_^ Favorite SC2 match ->Liquid`HerO vs. SlayerS CranK g.1 @MLG Summer Championship
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