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Death from Sandman comics
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On September 14 2011 12:32 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 11:44 FusionMrWet wrote:
The men and women who work 3-4 jobs to put food on the table for their kids, the men and women who are single parents and go to college while also paying the bills, the people who make the United Stated the beautiful (it has its flaws), and amazing country it is. what about the people in other countries who do that
Since they arent american they can go fuck themselves
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magneto,. but if he dosent exist. juggernaut
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On September 12 2011 22:22 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 21:53 TwoToneTerran wrote:On September 12 2011 21:27 kwizach wrote:On September 12 2011 20:55 17Sphynx17 wrote:
Sentry i think almost counts as a celestial on the same level with galactus and watcher right? He was allowed to be in attendance of their meeting for the battle with thanos with tribunal present as well as eternity/infinity.
He would surely beat surfer as he is immune to the power cosmic. That at least i would agree, i just dont know where or howto place him though. He is human but is he still mortal? I dont know much about his lore beyond that which ive stated. I believe you are thinking of Quasar, the latter attended the meeting with the abstract beings regarding Thanos and the Infinity Gauntlet only because he was Epoch's champion. Most people believe the Silver Surfer would clearly defeat Sentry, since Sentry has never achieved anything on panel that would put him on SS's level. He got stalemated (well, he technically got beat) by World War Hulk and the Terrax he defeated was only a pale copy of the Terrax of the 1980s and 1990s. Since when is he immune to the power cosmic? On September 12 2011 20:57 TwoToneTerran wrote:On September 12 2011 20:52 kwizach wrote:On September 12 2011 20:43 17Sphynx17 wrote:On September 12 2011 19:15 kwizach wrote:On September 12 2011 18:16 17Sphynx17 wrote:On September 12 2011 16:19 Geo.Rion wrote:
So what's the list of completly broken heroes so far? Aside from faceroller reality benders.
1. Flash as the speed of force
2. Shiny Superman Prime
3. Dr Manhatten (dont give me the missile crap, that he might not be able to stop, at the beginning of the Watchmen movie)
4. Thor
5. Silver surfer?
I wont put Hulk in there because limitless strength is useless without some sort of cosmic power, i mean the rest just go out in the space and rain shit down on him or trap him in some kind of bullshit I agree with Flash 100% as the strongest as him alone without any tools and befitting the category of a superhero. Just a question though, what Thor are we pertaining to? I mean I'm not bashing the hero per se just that the Thor in the movie is the Thor, son of Odin. But isn't it in the comics that Thor is actually a mortal who was deemed worthy by the hammer to become Thor. I use mortal because Beta Ray Bill managed to use the hammer effectively becoming the entity known as Thor as there is only one Mjolnir per universe. Anyway, using that premise of the hammer granting the powers of Thor to the mortal, if the hammer were to be separated from Thor for more than a minute, he would revert to his mortal form would he not? (Infinity Wars/Gauntlet battle with Thanos). I'm just clarifying for everyone's knowledge and enlightenment. The reason why I bring this up is, if what I said is what defines Thor, then effectively that negates his usefulness without his hammer would it not? Kind of like Silver Surfer without his board. Please clarify also, would both be able to fly (theoretically at their maximum speed) without their respective items? Thor was always a God - he was placed into the body of Donald Blake by Odin, but that's not his original form and the Blake persona has been stripped from Thor in the past. I'm not sure what his current status is, but he has many times been able to remain Thor without his hammer. Regarding the Silver Surfer, it's only the movie version who needs his board for his powers, and the movies are non-canon. The Silver Surfer from the comics certainly does not need his board for his power, and would destroy Flash without breaking a sweat. Ok, i get the continuity then for thor. But for surfer doesnt he lose the flight-speed thing if he's not on his board? I am open to corrections on this as i know im not an expert per se on all heroes.ü I dont think surfer is considered a god though but a cosmic being, less than a celestial. The surfer has been shown to be able to fly without his board in the past, but I don't recall seeing him go as fast (I might be wrong). That's still irrelevant though, since he retains his reaction time, which is more than fast enough to blast Flash into oblivion, send him into a black hole, remove the air from around him, shrink him to the size of an ant, etc. etc. before Flash can even come close. What makes you think this? Flash is fast enough to act on Super Prime, how is Silver Surfer somehow cosmically better than him? Also, as if Flash needs air to live (He's literally ran into nothingness), or is if a Black Hole would beat him. Silver Surfer, in all iterations, is always shown as having to do some gesture or action to make things happen. It's not like he's infallibly omnipotent and everything he ever wants happens at will with no thought or delay. I think you're really overblowing the Silver Surfer. Absolutely nothing indicates that Flash is faster than the Silver Surfer when it comes to reaction time. Even without his board, the Surfer would therefore quite easily defeat Flash with the power cosmic. Again, the Surfer is more powerful than Flash in every single other department, and has displayed speed feats at least equal to Flash's. See this Silver Surfer respect thread. In the DC Universe, Flash is the fastest being in existence, excluding the omnipotent (Like Superman Prime etc). Why do you persist in saying Silver Surfer is faster with no frame of reference? Is he legitimately the fastest being in the universe in Marvel? I did not say he was faster, I said had Flash had no edge over him. What speed feats can you show that would indicate Flash is faster? The surfer can travel through space at billions of times the speed of light ( Scan 1 - Scan 2), and he can travel through time thanks to his speed just like Flash. How the hell could Flash hope to compete against someone who is at least his match in terms of speed and who destroys him in every other department, including strength, durability, standard senses, cosmic awareness, psi abilities, energy blasts, energy and matter manipulation, energy absorption, transmutation, healing, teleportation, creating illusions, etc. etc.?
If SS can only go warp speed I'm putting Captain Picard down as strongest super hero, lololol.
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On September 14 2011 12:32 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 11:44 FusionMrWet wrote:
The men and women who work 3-4 jobs to put food on the table for their kids, the men and women who are single parents and go to college while also paying the bills, the people who make the United Stated the beautiful (it has its flaws), and amazing country it is. what about the people in other countries who do that
I am wondering the same.
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Superman has no rival no question about it.
My favorite superhero would have to be Batman however. Although he doesn't have real superpowers, I love the story behind the character, and how he manages to compensate and always get the upper hand through his intelligence.
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On September 15 2011 00:00 Faraday wrote:
Superman has no rival no question about it.
My favorite superhero would have to be Batman however. Although he doesn't have real superpowers, I love the story behind the character, and how he manages to compensate and always get the upper hand through his intelligence.
Jean Grey hosts a being that can destroy anything in existence by simply THINKING it.
Oh, and she has gone toe-to-toe with Galactus, who would squash Superman easily.
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On September 14 2011 19:46 VoirDire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 07:29 kwizach wrote:On September 13 2011 16:11 VoirDire wrote:On September 13 2011 01:02 kwizach wrote:On September 12 2011 23:31 TwoToneTerran wrote:On September 12 2011 23:13 kwizach wrote:On September 12 2011 22:54 TwoToneTerran wrote:Now you're just making stuff up. You have no logical or pertinent reason to say the Power Cosmic is stronger than the Speed Force (remember, the Flash froze many DC heroes who are masters of energy like captain atom and whatnot). This is why they're not comparable. You can't just assume the silver surfer is immune to the speed force when he gets shot by laser beams and getting hit with rocks and it works all the time -- which is why you can't say the flash is immune to anything the silver surfer can do because he gets affected by things beneath him all the time, too. It's bias, plain and simple. Let me guess, SS is your favorite superhero?  The particular power you have put forward is essentially energy robbing. The Silver Surfer is a character who has displayed feats of energy manipulation that go way beyond what you just described, is himself capable of energy absorption and has resisted countless energy absorbers in the past. Since the two characters are not part of the same multiverse you need to use logic and compare the powers - you can't simply claim that because Flash's power worked on every hero on his Earth, it would work on the Silver Surfer. The feats displayed by the Silver Surfer with regards to energy manipulation strongly suggest he is extremely resistant to energy absorption. The feats displayed by the Flash do not suggest in any way that he would be even remotely resistant to the Surfer attacks. Any unbiased observer would therefore logically go with the Surfer. No, he is not my favorite superhero - not by a long shot. On September 12 2011 23:03 zeru wrote:
Also, silver surfer was killed in marvel zombies series. Marvel Zombies = Earth-2149. This is therefore not the Silver Surfer I'm talking about, which is from the Earth-616 universe. Like I said, unless you think Silver Surfer is more resistant to the speed force than every single DC superhero (which is just silly), it could forseeably work. Why wouldn't a fundamental force of the universe affect Surfer? Punches affect him, energy beams affect him, he's been hit and hurt by many things that he should be able to shoe off with energy manipulation, but he didn't because maybe he's not as omnipowerful as you're suggesting. It's not a logical conclusion, it's a skeptical conclusion without real reference. If they're both unsurpassable masters of their respective powers (allen is since he became the speed force, I'm pretty sure the SS's abilities are practically unlimited in this sense too), it's just about saying which one is stronger: The Speed Force, or The Power Cosmic? It's a baseless, speculative guess. Also, way to take the marvel zombies post seriously. Lighten up, man! Do you even read my posts? Why should the Surfer automatically be just as affected by the Speed force as the DC Earth superheroes when he does not have the same powers as them and is the wielder of the power cosmic which has no equivalent in the DC universe? I explained to you why one could very legitimately discard the possibility of the Surfer getting affected by the power you described, namely that he has resisted similar powers in the past and has shown abilities going WAY BEYOND that power with regards to energy manipulation. Flash, on the other hand, would get utterly destroyed by what the Silver Surfer could dish out. Stop trying to equate to two as if they were both completely vulnerable to the other's power when that's clearly not the case based on the feats they have respectively exhibited. I don't necessarily disagree with you, but just for arguments sake, I'm gonna argue:D The physics of the marvel and DC multiverses are mutually exclusive so lets do two arguments, one for each universe. Marvel universe: If flash was in the marvel universe, the speed force would be an abstract entity as it is the embodiment of speed. If eternity is the embodiment of space, and infinity the embodiment of time, the speed force would be a composite of both. And thus potentially vastly more powerful, something like the phoenix force when summoned by Jean Grey. Powers from abstract entities trump power cosmic in the marvel universe. Since flash is the embodiment of the speed force, one could argue that it would make the an abstract. In addition: As the marvel universe apparently isn't governed by the law of special relativity, and flash can travel at the fastest speed possible, he should be able to outspeed the SS measly 2x lightspeed easily. As both flash and SS have cosmic awareness, flash should be able to out maneuver SS and wear him out and take him out with a hit of virtually unlimited kinetic energy gained from momentum. DC universe: Since galactus doesn't exist in the DC universe, SS borrowed powers wouldn't even work here. Even if it would, he would have a hard time adjusting his powers based on energy absorbtion and manipulation since this universe isn't governed by the same laws of physics. He would not be able to exceed or even go very near light speed with his surf board as he would be effected by relativistic forces of time dilation and length contraction as he got close to c. The speed force explicitly protects Flashs body from relativistic effects as he gets close to c. No, your reasoning is completely flawed. Why the hell would the power cosmic not exist or be severely limited in the DC universe while the speed force would be completely unaltered in the Marvel Universe? Either they both work (Surfer wins) or neither does (Surfer still wins). It's funny because in the crossovers (not canon), the writers actually made the exact opposite choice than yours: the Silver Surfer's powers always work perfectly in the DC universe, while Flash's power disappeared when he entered the Marvel universe in one crossover (but those crossovers aren't canon anyway). Your argument regarding Flash being an abstract in the Marvel universe is groundless anyway, because Flash has never displayed feats that would indicate he'd be an abstract. And that's exactly what such theoretical battles are supposed to be based on: on-panel feats. The bottom line is that the Surfer has displayed feats way beyond Flash's and would crush him in battle. No, your reasoning is completely flawed. Why the hell would the power cosmic not exist or be severely limited in the DC universe while the speed force would be completely unaltered in the Marvel Universe?My reasoning is this: The power cosmic is galacus power of which a small portion is only extended to the silver surfer. It is a power that can be lent and taken away by will. SS would have no powers if there weren't a galactus to enable them, and there are no galacus in the DC universe. The source of flash powers, the speed force, is a fundamental force of the universe, very similar to marvels concept of abstracts.
Galactus is the most powerful being imbued with the power cosmic, but he's not the source of the power cosmic. If he was to suddenly disappear, the Surfer would retain his power, so to repeat myself, your reasoning is flawed.
On September 14 2011 19:46 VoirDire wrote:
Your argument regarding Flash being an abstract in the Marvel universe is groundless anyway, because Flash has never displayed feats that would indicate he'd be an abstract. And that's exactly what such theoretical battles are supposed to be based on: on-panel feats. The bottom line is that the Surfer has displayed feats way beyond Flash's and would crush him in battle.
I never argued that flash was an abstract, I said that one could argue that since flash is the embodiment of a fundamental cosmic force in the DC universe, that could be translated to him being an abstract in the marvel universe.
While I agree that on-panel displayed feats should be the basis of the extent of someones powers, one must consider that their super powers are hard to compare, as they are based on fundamentally different universes with different rule sets. If you start comparing certain powers closely, you get weird paradoxes.
Not in this case. You get one guy who's more powerful (the Surfer) and one guy who would get defeated (Flash).
On September 14 2011 19:46 VoirDire wrote:
In a DC universe (governed by special relativity), the speed of light is the maximum theoretical speed, in a Marvel universe (Newtonian) it's an arbitrary number.
When flash accelerates to the speed of light, everything would not only seem to stand still in comparison to his fast speed. It would literary stand completely still as he have effectively frozen time. How would one perceive someone moving at twice the speed of light in a newtonian universe (as the silver surfer can do) in this situation?
The DC universe has seen multiple characters travel faster than the speed of light - it's therefore not the maximum theoretical speed.
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Anyone claiming the flash has to remember that he's gotten beaten by CAPTAIN COLD. someone who uses a COLD GUN with NO OTHER POWERS
If he's all powerful then his list of villains wouldn't include so many losers. At least the silver surfer's enemies are all super uber powerful
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On September 15 2011 03:51 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 00:00 Faraday wrote:
Superman has no rival no question about it.
My favorite superhero would have to be Batman however. Although he doesn't have real superpowers, I love the story behind the character, and how he manages to compensate and always get the upper hand through his intelligence. Jean Grey hosts a being that can destroy anything in existence by simply THINKING it. Oh, and she has gone toe-to-toe with Galactus, who would squash Superman easily.
It's actually worse. The phoenix is fueled by the potential of life. It is the creator of the the universe, so to speak. Just by using it's power the universe dies a little sooner than it would have. Just the act of existing in the universe is killing the universe--it is that powerful.
From Wikipedia
The Phoenix Force has the ability to manipulate cosmic energies and to tap into the life-force reserved for future generations, thus denying them existence. It can wield this energy to project beams of immense destructive force. It can transmigrate throughout time and space by folding its energy back into itself, causing it to collapse akin to a black hole and then reform itself upon reaching its destination. It can directly absorb energy such as Cyclops' optic blasts or even the entire energy of a sun. It is also capable of absorbing the energy and life-force from a foe. As it is the nexus of all psionic energy, it has mental abilities of cosmic scope, including telepathy and telekinesis.
The extent of the Phoenix Force's abilities has not been fully clarified. Jean Grey as The White Phoenix of the Crown was able to change the future of a universe by reaching back in time and pushing her husband Cyclops to move on with his life and held a universe in the palm of her hands.
I repeat that.
And held a universe in the palm of her hand.
She absorbs life itself. You're about to fight the phoenix, you're alive in some way or form, so at will you die.
Yes, she's that powerful.
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On September 15 2011 03:55 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 19:46 VoirDire wrote:On September 14 2011 07:29 kwizach wrote:On September 13 2011 16:11 VoirDire wrote:On September 13 2011 01:02 kwizach wrote:On September 12 2011 23:31 TwoToneTerran wrote:On September 12 2011 23:13 kwizach wrote:On September 12 2011 22:54 TwoToneTerran wrote:Now you're just making stuff up. You have no logical or pertinent reason to say the Power Cosmic is stronger than the Speed Force (remember, the Flash froze many DC heroes who are masters of energy like captain atom and whatnot). This is why they're not comparable. You can't just assume the silver surfer is immune to the speed force when he gets shot by laser beams and getting hit with rocks and it works all the time -- which is why you can't say the flash is immune to anything the silver surfer can do because he gets affected by things beneath him all the time, too. It's bias, plain and simple. Let me guess, SS is your favorite superhero? The particular power you have put forward is essentially energy robbing. The Silver Surfer is a character who has displayed feats of energy manipulation that go way beyond what you just described, is himself capable of energy absorption and has resisted countless energy absorbers in the past. Since the two characters are not part of the same multiverse you need to use logic and compare the powers - you can't simply claim that because Flash's power worked on every hero on his Earth, it would work on the Silver Surfer. The feats displayed by the Silver Surfer with regards to energy manipulation strongly suggest he is extremely resistant to energy absorption. The feats displayed by the Flash do not suggest in any way that he would be even remotely resistant to the Surfer attacks. Any unbiased observer would therefore logically go with the Surfer. No, he is not my favorite superhero - not by a long shot. On September 12 2011 23:03 zeru wrote:
Also, silver surfer was killed in marvel zombies series. Marvel Zombies = Earth-2149. This is therefore not the Silver Surfer I'm talking about, which is from the Earth-616 universe. Like I said, unless you think Silver Surfer is more resistant to the speed force than every single DC superhero (which is just silly), it could forseeably work. Why wouldn't a fundamental force of the universe affect Surfer? Punches affect him, energy beams affect him, he's been hit and hurt by many things that he should be able to shoe off with energy manipulation, but he didn't because maybe he's not as omnipowerful as you're suggesting. It's not a logical conclusion, it's a skeptical conclusion without real reference. If they're both unsurpassable masters of their respective powers (allen is since he became the speed force, I'm pretty sure the SS's abilities are practically unlimited in this sense too), it's just about saying which one is stronger: The Speed Force, or The Power Cosmic? It's a baseless, speculative guess. Also, way to take the marvel zombies post seriously. Lighten up, man! Do you even read my posts? Why should the Surfer automatically be just as affected by the Speed force as the DC Earth superheroes when he does not have the same powers as them and is the wielder of the power cosmic which has no equivalent in the DC universe? I explained to you why one could very legitimately discard the possibility of the Surfer getting affected by the power you described, namely that he has resisted similar powers in the past and has shown abilities going WAY BEYOND that power with regards to energy manipulation. Flash, on the other hand, would get utterly destroyed by what the Silver Surfer could dish out. Stop trying to equate to two as if they were both completely vulnerable to the other's power when that's clearly not the case based on the feats they have respectively exhibited. I don't necessarily disagree with you, but just for arguments sake, I'm gonna argue:D The physics of the marvel and DC multiverses are mutually exclusive so lets do two arguments, one for each universe. Marvel universe: If flash was in the marvel universe, the speed force would be an abstract entity as it is the embodiment of speed. If eternity is the embodiment of space, and infinity the embodiment of time, the speed force would be a composite of both. And thus potentially vastly more powerful, something like the phoenix force when summoned by Jean Grey. Powers from abstract entities trump power cosmic in the marvel universe. Since flash is the embodiment of the speed force, one could argue that it would make the an abstract. In addition: As the marvel universe apparently isn't governed by the law of special relativity, and flash can travel at the fastest speed possible, he should be able to outspeed the SS measly 2x lightspeed easily. As both flash and SS have cosmic awareness, flash should be able to out maneuver SS and wear him out and take him out with a hit of virtually unlimited kinetic energy gained from momentum. DC universe: Since galactus doesn't exist in the DC universe, SS borrowed powers wouldn't even work here. Even if it would, he would have a hard time adjusting his powers based on energy absorbtion and manipulation since this universe isn't governed by the same laws of physics. He would not be able to exceed or even go very near light speed with his surf board as he would be effected by relativistic forces of time dilation and length contraction as he got close to c. The speed force explicitly protects Flashs body from relativistic effects as he gets close to c. No, your reasoning is completely flawed. Why the hell would the power cosmic not exist or be severely limited in the DC universe while the speed force would be completely unaltered in the Marvel Universe? Either they both work (Surfer wins) or neither does (Surfer still wins). It's funny because in the crossovers (not canon), the writers actually made the exact opposite choice than yours: the Silver Surfer's powers always work perfectly in the DC universe, while Flash's power disappeared when he entered the Marvel universe in one crossover (but those crossovers aren't canon anyway). Your argument regarding Flash being an abstract in the Marvel universe is groundless anyway, because Flash has never displayed feats that would indicate he'd be an abstract. And that's exactly what such theoretical battles are supposed to be based on: on-panel feats. The bottom line is that the Surfer has displayed feats way beyond Flash's and would crush him in battle. No, your reasoning is completely flawed. Why the hell would the power cosmic not exist or be severely limited in the DC universe while the speed force would be completely unaltered in the Marvel Universe?My reasoning is this: The power cosmic is galacus power of which a small portion is only extended to the silver surfer. It is a power that can be lent and taken away by will. SS would have no powers if there weren't a galactus to enable them, and there are no galacus in the DC universe. The source of flash powers, the speed force, is a fundamental force of the universe, very similar to marvels concept of abstracts. Galactus is the most powerful being imbued with the power cosmic, but he's not the source of the power cosmic. If he was to suddenly disappear, the Surfer would retain his power, so to repeat myself, your reasoning is flawed. Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 19:46 VoirDire wrote:
Your argument regarding Flash being an abstract in the Marvel universe is groundless anyway, because Flash has never displayed feats that would indicate he'd be an abstract. And that's exactly what such theoretical battles are supposed to be based on: on-panel feats. The bottom line is that the Surfer has displayed feats way beyond Flash's and would crush him in battle.
I never argued that flash was an abstract, I said that one could argue that since flash is the embodiment of a fundamental cosmic force in the DC universe, that could be translated to him being an abstract in the marvel universe.
While I agree that on-panel displayed feats should be the basis of the extent of someones powers, one must consider that their super powers are hard to compare, as they are based on fundamentally different universes with different rule sets. If you start comparing certain powers closely, you get weird paradoxes. Not in this case. You get one guy who's more powerful (the Surfer) and one guy who would get defeated (Flash). Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 19:46 VoirDire wrote:
In a DC universe (governed by special relativity), the speed of light is the maximum theoretical speed, in a Marvel universe (Newtonian) it's an arbitrary number.
When flash accelerates to the speed of light, everything would not only seem to stand still in comparison to his fast speed. It would literary stand completely still as he have effectively frozen time. How would one perceive someone moving at twice the speed of light in a newtonian universe (as the silver surfer can do) in this situation? The DC universe has seen multiple characters travel faster than the speed of light - it's therefore not the maximum theoretical speed.
Just wanted to step in here to set two things straight:
If Galactus would disappear, the Marvel Universe would disappear. That's actually one of the reasons why nobody dares to nuke him (the other being that he's incredibly resilient).
The speed barriers in DC worlds are sound barrier<light barrier<dimensional barrier<speed force barrier. Silver Age Superman once almost flew into Heaven by accident because he went so fast. Superman, Flash, and many others have time-travelled by means of speed. Even before Barry was retconned into an embodiment of the Speed Force, he ran at 300.000.000.000 times the speed of light. So, to sum up, if one were to say that these feats are occuring within realms governed by relativity theory, I'd call that a pretty creative interpretation of Einstein.
Notably, Flash has appeared twice (as far as I know) in the Marvel Universe by now. Before all the Speed Force stuff, he did sort of a Cameo (and was never referred to by name) and curbstomped all competition in a race which established him as "the fastest man in the world" for both Universes. Later, in one of the DC vs. Marvel spinoffs, he lost his connection to the Speed Force - because there is no such thing in the Marvel continuity - and lost a race to fucking Quicksilver.
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On September 15 2011 04:33 Poffel wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 03:55 kwizach wrote:On September 14 2011 19:46 VoirDire wrote:On September 14 2011 07:29 kwizach wrote:On September 13 2011 16:11 VoirDire wrote:On September 13 2011 01:02 kwizach wrote:On September 12 2011 23:31 TwoToneTerran wrote:On September 12 2011 23:13 kwizach wrote:On September 12 2011 22:54 TwoToneTerran wrote:Now you're just making stuff up. You have no logical or pertinent reason to say the Power Cosmic is stronger than the Speed Force (remember, the Flash froze many DC heroes who are masters of energy like captain atom and whatnot). This is why they're not comparable. You can't just assume the silver surfer is immune to the speed force when he gets shot by laser beams and getting hit with rocks and it works all the time -- which is why you can't say the flash is immune to anything the silver surfer can do because he gets affected by things beneath him all the time, too. It's bias, plain and simple. Let me guess, SS is your favorite superhero? The particular power you have put forward is essentially energy robbing. The Silver Surfer is a character who has displayed feats of energy manipulation that go way beyond what you just described, is himself capable of energy absorption and has resisted countless energy absorbers in the past. Since the two characters are not part of the same multiverse you need to use logic and compare the powers - you can't simply claim that because Flash's power worked on every hero on his Earth, it would work on the Silver Surfer. The feats displayed by the Silver Surfer with regards to energy manipulation strongly suggest he is extremely resistant to energy absorption. The feats displayed by the Flash do not suggest in any way that he would be even remotely resistant to the Surfer attacks. Any unbiased observer would therefore logically go with the Surfer. No, he is not my favorite superhero - not by a long shot. On September 12 2011 23:03 zeru wrote:
Also, silver surfer was killed in marvel zombies series. Marvel Zombies = Earth-2149. This is therefore not the Silver Surfer I'm talking about, which is from the Earth-616 universe. Like I said, unless you think Silver Surfer is more resistant to the speed force than every single DC superhero (which is just silly), it could forseeably work. Why wouldn't a fundamental force of the universe affect Surfer? Punches affect him, energy beams affect him, he's been hit and hurt by many things that he should be able to shoe off with energy manipulation, but he didn't because maybe he's not as omnipowerful as you're suggesting. It's not a logical conclusion, it's a skeptical conclusion without real reference. If they're both unsurpassable masters of their respective powers (allen is since he became the speed force, I'm pretty sure the SS's abilities are practically unlimited in this sense too), it's just about saying which one is stronger: The Speed Force, or The Power Cosmic? It's a baseless, speculative guess. Also, way to take the marvel zombies post seriously. Lighten up, man! Do you even read my posts? Why should the Surfer automatically be just as affected by the Speed force as the DC Earth superheroes when he does not have the same powers as them and is the wielder of the power cosmic which has no equivalent in the DC universe? I explained to you why one could very legitimately discard the possibility of the Surfer getting affected by the power you described, namely that he has resisted similar powers in the past and has shown abilities going WAY BEYOND that power with regards to energy manipulation. Flash, on the other hand, would get utterly destroyed by what the Silver Surfer could dish out. Stop trying to equate to two as if they were both completely vulnerable to the other's power when that's clearly not the case based on the feats they have respectively exhibited. I don't necessarily disagree with you, but just for arguments sake, I'm gonna argue:D The physics of the marvel and DC multiverses are mutually exclusive so lets do two arguments, one for each universe. Marvel universe: If flash was in the marvel universe, the speed force would be an abstract entity as it is the embodiment of speed. If eternity is the embodiment of space, and infinity the embodiment of time, the speed force would be a composite of both. And thus potentially vastly more powerful, something like the phoenix force when summoned by Jean Grey. Powers from abstract entities trump power cosmic in the marvel universe. Since flash is the embodiment of the speed force, one could argue that it would make the an abstract. In addition: As the marvel universe apparently isn't governed by the law of special relativity, and flash can travel at the fastest speed possible, he should be able to outspeed the SS measly 2x lightspeed easily. As both flash and SS have cosmic awareness, flash should be able to out maneuver SS and wear him out and take him out with a hit of virtually unlimited kinetic energy gained from momentum. DC universe: Since galactus doesn't exist in the DC universe, SS borrowed powers wouldn't even work here. Even if it would, he would have a hard time adjusting his powers based on energy absorbtion and manipulation since this universe isn't governed by the same laws of physics. He would not be able to exceed or even go very near light speed with his surf board as he would be effected by relativistic forces of time dilation and length contraction as he got close to c. The speed force explicitly protects Flashs body from relativistic effects as he gets close to c. No, your reasoning is completely flawed. Why the hell would the power cosmic not exist or be severely limited in the DC universe while the speed force would be completely unaltered in the Marvel Universe? Either they both work (Surfer wins) or neither does (Surfer still wins). It's funny because in the crossovers (not canon), the writers actually made the exact opposite choice than yours: the Silver Surfer's powers always work perfectly in the DC universe, while Flash's power disappeared when he entered the Marvel universe in one crossover (but those crossovers aren't canon anyway). Your argument regarding Flash being an abstract in the Marvel universe is groundless anyway, because Flash has never displayed feats that would indicate he'd be an abstract. And that's exactly what such theoretical battles are supposed to be based on: on-panel feats. The bottom line is that the Surfer has displayed feats way beyond Flash's and would crush him in battle. No, your reasoning is completely flawed. Why the hell would the power cosmic not exist or be severely limited in the DC universe while the speed force would be completely unaltered in the Marvel Universe?My reasoning is this: The power cosmic is galacus power of which a small portion is only extended to the silver surfer. It is a power that can be lent and taken away by will. SS would have no powers if there weren't a galactus to enable them, and there are no galacus in the DC universe. The source of flash powers, the speed force, is a fundamental force of the universe, very similar to marvels concept of abstracts. Galactus is the most powerful being imbued with the power cosmic, but he's not the source of the power cosmic. If he was to suddenly disappear, the Surfer would retain his power, so to repeat myself, your reasoning is flawed. On September 14 2011 19:46 VoirDire wrote:
Your argument regarding Flash being an abstract in the Marvel universe is groundless anyway, because Flash has never displayed feats that would indicate he'd be an abstract. And that's exactly what such theoretical battles are supposed to be based on: on-panel feats. The bottom line is that the Surfer has displayed feats way beyond Flash's and would crush him in battle.
I never argued that flash was an abstract, I said that one could argue that since flash is the embodiment of a fundamental cosmic force in the DC universe, that could be translated to him being an abstract in the marvel universe.
While I agree that on-panel displayed feats should be the basis of the extent of someones powers, one must consider that their super powers are hard to compare, as they are based on fundamentally different universes with different rule sets. If you start comparing certain powers closely, you get weird paradoxes. Not in this case. You get one guy who's more powerful (the Surfer) and one guy who would get defeated (Flash). On September 14 2011 19:46 VoirDire wrote:
In a DC universe (governed by special relativity), the speed of light is the maximum theoretical speed, in a Marvel universe (Newtonian) it's an arbitrary number.
When flash accelerates to the speed of light, everything would not only seem to stand still in comparison to his fast speed. It would literary stand completely still as he have effectively frozen time. How would one perceive someone moving at twice the speed of light in a newtonian universe (as the silver surfer can do) in this situation? The DC universe has seen multiple characters travel faster than the speed of light - it's therefore not the maximum theoretical speed. Just wanted to step in here to set two things straight: If Galactus would disappear, the Marvel Universe would disappear. That's actually one of the reasons why nobody dares to nuke him (the other being that he's incredibly resilient). The speed barriers in DC worlds are sound barrier<light barrier<dimensional barrier<speed force barrier. Silver Age Superman once almost flew into Heaven by accident because he went so fast. Superman, Flash, and many others have time-travelled by means of speed. Even before Barry was retconned into an embodiment of the Speed Force, he ran at 300.000.000.000 times the speed of light. So, to sum up, if one were to say that these feats are occuring within realms governed by relativity theory, I'd call that a pretty creative interpretation of Einstein. Notably, Flash has appeared twice (as far as I know) in the Marvel Universe by now. Before all the Speed Force stuff, he did sort of a Cameo (and was never referred to by name) and curbstomped all competition in a race which established him as "the fastest man in the world" for both Universes. Later, in one of the DC vs. Marvel spinoffs, he lost his connection to the Speed Force - because there is no such thing in the Marvel continuity - and lost a race to fucking Quicksilver.
Good post. Just to make it clear, Galactus' existing is indeed vital to the universe because he keeps Abraxas in check (notably), but my point was that the Silver Surfer would not lose his powers if Galactus was to suddenly disappear, as VoirDire was arguing.
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The more posts I read in this thread, the more I think some of you guys are really taking this thing a bit too serious... We're still talking about comics here, a universe that can be changed any second at will of the respective writers. Next thing you know Superman Prime or Jean Grey might be total jokes because someone decides the universe/multi-verse they live in is only a tiny part of a much bigger universe with its own and much more powerful heroes.
Which universe is the "real" one anyway? Marvel? DC? A shared universe between both? Maybe you catch my drill.....
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On September 15 2011 05:15 Ermac wrote:
The more posts I read in this thread, the more I think some of you guys are really taking this thing a bit too serious... We're still talking about comics here, a universe that can be changed any second at will of the respective writers. Next thing you know Superman Prime or Jean Grey might be total jokes because someone decides the universe/multi-verse they live in is only a tiny part of a much bigger universe with its own and much more powerful heroes.
Which universe is the "real" one anyway? Marvel? DC? A shared universe between both? Maybe you catch my drill.....
The topic is not as important as the argument.
What is fun is the discussion of normally uncorrelated subjects and attempting to draw conclusions from them.
If it was SC2 v BW, there would be a flame fest
Same if it was Liberal vs Conservative vs Anarchistic vs Dictatorial
etc...
Comic Book superheroes are safe subjects to talk about and have a lot of paperwork evidence to back up your claim. Jean Grey already isn't "all that" because the Phoenix force has a hard time tackling Galactus.
The point is that having "what if" arguments with non serious topics is fun 
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On September 15 2011 05:15 Ermac wrote:
The more posts I read in this thread, the more I think some of you guys are really taking this thing a bit too serious... We're still talking about comics here, a universe that can be changed any second at will of the respective writers. Next thing you know Superman Prime or Jean Grey might be total jokes because someone decides the universe/multi-verse they live in is only a tiny part of a much bigger universe with its own and much more powerful heroes.
Which universe is the "real" one anyway? Marvel? DC? A shared universe between both? Maybe you catch my drill.....
It´s all in good fun bro! Just like discussing possible scenarios of a hypothetical zombie apocalypse can sometimes be real fun the only people who take it too serious are the people who dont understand that everyone knows it´s a silly thing to discuss.
Ps, the Falcon would crush the enterprise in seconds.
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![[image loading]](http://files.sharenator.com/screen2_Superman_Vs_Goku_amp_the_winner_is-s1004x740-132851-580.png)
Goku beats Superman.
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People still don't know that Goku is the strongest superhero? Cmon people, this isn't a subjective topic.
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On September 15 2011 05:27 FabledIntegral wrote:Goku beats Superman.
Superman stops being a pussy. Travels the universe for forever and comes back as Supermanprime. Goku then dies. At will. Supermanprime is onmipresent and a time traveller. Goku dies at will, in all moments of history past present future and in other dimensions, at will.
Superman beats Goku.
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On September 15 2011 05:15 Ermac wrote:
The more posts I read in this thread, the more I think some of you guys are really taking this thing a bit too serious... We're still talking about comics here, a universe that can be changed any second at will of the respective writers. Next thing you know Superman Prime or Jean Grey might be total jokes because someone decides the universe/multi-verse they live in is only a tiny part of a much bigger universe with its own and much more powerful heroes.
Which universe is the "real" one anyway? Marvel? DC? A shared universe between both? Maybe you catch my drill.....
Well, as the mere existence of shared characters like Captain Marvel or Captain Atom clearly shows, the different multiverses are obviously elements of the same omniverse and not at all intended to be mutually exclusive. So, basically, anything that's part of the canon is real - in the sense of its being inside the omniverse, in any continuity - unless it directly contradicts Word-of-God. But just because retconning via God may indeed occur it doesn't invalidate anything of the currently established canon as for now... just like retconning in "real life" (see e.g. the platypus or the dinosaurs).
+ Show Spoiler +Yes, I'm trolling... but he started. :p
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When you guys talked about flash I thought you meant... you know... Flash
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EPT
