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I just thought about it, does the thread starter want us to consider as the individual themselves excluding tools/equipments? Like say batman without his utility belt? Thor without his hammer? Adam Warlock with no infinity gauntlet?
Is it therefore innate strength of the individual without other external power ups?
If we rid it to the bare essentials, I think Flash would be a top contender, even above Superman. =)
I agree also that Living Tribunal is not technically a hero as he merely judges/arbitrates with regards to the law of nature (like how he judged that he would not participate in the battle with thanos) because of the strong shall survive. Kind of like celestials are not really villains/evil because that is their existence like Galactus and the Watcher, it is the definition of their existence not because they choose to but they just are. =)
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On September 11 2011 23:23 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 23:21 kwizach wrote:On September 11 2011 23:10 TwoToneTerran wrote:On September 11 2011 23:06 Paperplane wrote:On September 11 2011 22:39 FrankWalls wrote:On September 11 2011 21:04 RPR_Tempest wrote:On September 11 2011 21:01 Sinensis wrote:On September 11 2011 20:54 RPR_Tempest wrote:
Seriously, the Goku answers baffle me. Goku isn't even the strongest character from DBZ. Yes he is and he is the only Saiyan in the Dragon Ball universe to achieve all possible transformations. ...Okay, here we go. Goku's powers pale in comparison to Vegito/Vegetto's powers, and if you watch the show that should be obvious, so no further explanation needed there. Outside of Buu and fused characters, Gohan is stronger than Goku. Why? Goku was scared to fight Super Buu, the same Buu Gohan destroyed without even trying. Game. Set. Match. i think at the end of the series goku is clearly the strongest (disregarding fusion forms...) I think Mystic Gohan comes very very close to SSJ3 Goku He's actually much, much stronger. But it's moot. Flash is the most powerful once he became the speed force. He basically is a fundamental force of the universe while still being an actual superhero, so he fits the criteria. Superman? Well, sorry, you can't do anything that pertains to movement! Oh, you'd like to attack him? Sorry, can't move. You'd like to think of a plan, or for that matter, anything at all and any course of action for which to take? Welp, that sucks, because thinking requires the transfer of information in your brains! You're completely frozen in space at his will with no ability to think or act, and, well, you can't pull the "hit him so fast he can't execute these powers" gimmick because he's literally the essence of all things speed. Goku? Ditto! Then an infinite mass punch through the brain. Flash, going all out, is the most absurdly powerful comic book character who still counts as a superhero. The downside is that using all of his power runs the risk of him disappearing forever (except not because comic books). In a full out, 1 on 1 fight, Flash > All and it's not even close. The speed force is far from the most powerful force in the omniverse. Yeah, but it's the most powerful force any generic superhero has. A lot of people are bringing up things like The Living Tribunal and The One Above All, but that's not in the parameters of the question -- just because they're found in comic books doesn't mean they're super heros. There's plenty of non-superhero comic book characters and they are one. The Flash is, by all accounts, your typical super hero in every way and controls ONE of the fundamental powers of the universe that makes him essentially immortal and capable of, well, all that stuff I put up there.
No it's not. The power cosmic, the Odin Force and the Phoenix force are three examples (see the Silver Surfer, Thor (also Rune Thor) and Jean Grey). Superman Prime is also a lot more powerful than Flash (and even Black Flash), and so are the superheroes which got hold of the Infinity Gauntlet (see Adam Warlock) or other similar artefacts (see Captain Britain with Excalibur and AoR).
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On September 11 2011 23:31 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 23:23 TwoToneTerran wrote:On September 11 2011 23:21 kwizach wrote:On September 11 2011 23:10 TwoToneTerran wrote:On September 11 2011 23:06 Paperplane wrote:On September 11 2011 22:39 FrankWalls wrote:On September 11 2011 21:04 RPR_Tempest wrote:On September 11 2011 21:01 Sinensis wrote:On September 11 2011 20:54 RPR_Tempest wrote:
Seriously, the Goku answers baffle me. Goku isn't even the strongest character from DBZ. Yes he is and he is the only Saiyan in the Dragon Ball universe to achieve all possible transformations. ...Okay, here we go. Goku's powers pale in comparison to Vegito/Vegetto's powers, and if you watch the show that should be obvious, so no further explanation needed there. Outside of Buu and fused characters, Gohan is stronger than Goku. Why? Goku was scared to fight Super Buu, the same Buu Gohan destroyed without even trying. Game. Set. Match. i think at the end of the series goku is clearly the strongest (disregarding fusion forms...) I think Mystic Gohan comes very very close to SSJ3 Goku He's actually much, much stronger. But it's moot. Flash is the most powerful once he became the speed force. He basically is a fundamental force of the universe while still being an actual superhero, so he fits the criteria. Superman? Well, sorry, you can't do anything that pertains to movement! Oh, you'd like to attack him? Sorry, can't move. You'd like to think of a plan, or for that matter, anything at all and any course of action for which to take? Welp, that sucks, because thinking requires the transfer of information in your brains! You're completely frozen in space at his will with no ability to think or act, and, well, you can't pull the "hit him so fast he can't execute these powers" gimmick because he's literally the essence of all things speed. Goku? Ditto! Then an infinite mass punch through the brain. Flash, going all out, is the most absurdly powerful comic book character who still counts as a superhero. The downside is that using all of his power runs the risk of him disappearing forever (except not because comic books). In a full out, 1 on 1 fight, Flash > All and it's not even close. The speed force is far from the most powerful force in the omniverse. Yeah, but it's the most powerful force any generic superhero has. A lot of people are bringing up things like The Living Tribunal and The One Above All, but that's not in the parameters of the question -- just because they're found in comic books doesn't mean they're super heros. There's plenty of non-superhero comic book characters and they are one. The Flash is, by all accounts, your typical super hero in every way and controls ONE of the fundamental powers of the universe that makes him essentially immortal and capable of, well, all that stuff I put up there. No it's not. The power cosmic and the Phoenix force are two examples (see the Silver Surfer and Jean Grey). Superman Prime is also a lot more powerful than Flash (and even Black Flash), so are the superheroes which got hold of the Infinity Gauntlet or other similar artefacts.
Not sure how you can compare the Phoenix Force. Anyhow, the power cosmic is very vague and frequently beaten -- it tends to be a certain "level" of the power cosmic. It's hard to compare Marvel to DC side by side. Silver Surfer still acts and thinks like a normal being and would, quite easily, be frozen in space and ripped to pieces by Flash. Some of the super intrinsic beings who operate the power cosmic, maybe not, but all superheroes who operate it tend to have the limits of being rather ordinary beings operating the power.
Anyhow, with the infinity gauntlet, are any superheros, at their current base in continuity, in possession of it? Like, is there any superhero right now who, when listing their abilities, you would go "has the infinity gauntlet and is therefore omnipotent," ? I don't religiously keep up with comics, but usually the answer is no since that thing gets broken up frequently. If there is a current, normal superhero who has the ability of "omnipotence," then they win, I suppose. Unless they have to stop and think about using their omnipotence, then Flash could just stop them there and jack the gauntlet.
Getting back to the phoenix force, Jean Grey isn't really a superhero whenever she's in full control of the phoenix force. She's just your atypical omnipotent superbeing who does as it wishes -- this is a disgustingly frequent and regurgitated plotline for the X-Men. Jean goes full phoenix to beat some threat, flies off wistfully.. The reason I brought up Flash is because he IS the speed force while retaining his entire superhero identity.
Superman Prime is a supervillain. He USED to be good then went all evil and voila, he's excluded. And frankly, he's so casually engaged by so many forces (Normal Superman, The Green Lanterns fucking imprisoned him once his armor was broken), would you really put him over Flash when he's in absolute control of the speed force, considering who's beaten him before? Could just move himself and Prime near a natural red sun and he crumples.
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On September 11 2011 23:39 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 23:31 kwizach wrote:On September 11 2011 23:23 TwoToneTerran wrote:On September 11 2011 23:21 kwizach wrote:On September 11 2011 23:10 TwoToneTerran wrote:On September 11 2011 23:06 Paperplane wrote:On September 11 2011 22:39 FrankWalls wrote:On September 11 2011 21:04 RPR_Tempest wrote:On September 11 2011 21:01 Sinensis wrote:On September 11 2011 20:54 RPR_Tempest wrote:
Seriously, the Goku answers baffle me. Goku isn't even the strongest character from DBZ. Yes he is and he is the only Saiyan in the Dragon Ball universe to achieve all possible transformations. ...Okay, here we go. Goku's powers pale in comparison to Vegito/Vegetto's powers, and if you watch the show that should be obvious, so no further explanation needed there. Outside of Buu and fused characters, Gohan is stronger than Goku. Why? Goku was scared to fight Super Buu, the same Buu Gohan destroyed without even trying. Game. Set. Match. i think at the end of the series goku is clearly the strongest (disregarding fusion forms...) I think Mystic Gohan comes very very close to SSJ3 Goku He's actually much, much stronger. But it's moot. Flash is the most powerful once he became the speed force. He basically is a fundamental force of the universe while still being an actual superhero, so he fits the criteria. Superman? Well, sorry, you can't do anything that pertains to movement! Oh, you'd like to attack him? Sorry, can't move. You'd like to think of a plan, or for that matter, anything at all and any course of action for which to take? Welp, that sucks, because thinking requires the transfer of information in your brains! You're completely frozen in space at his will with no ability to think or act, and, well, you can't pull the "hit him so fast he can't execute these powers" gimmick because he's literally the essence of all things speed. Goku? Ditto! Then an infinite mass punch through the brain. Flash, going all out, is the most absurdly powerful comic book character who still counts as a superhero. The downside is that using all of his power runs the risk of him disappearing forever (except not because comic books). In a full out, 1 on 1 fight, Flash > All and it's not even close. The speed force is far from the most powerful force in the omniverse. Yeah, but it's the most powerful force any generic superhero has. A lot of people are bringing up things like The Living Tribunal and The One Above All, but that's not in the parameters of the question -- just because they're found in comic books doesn't mean they're super heros. There's plenty of non-superhero comic book characters and they are one. The Flash is, by all accounts, your typical super hero in every way and controls ONE of the fundamental powers of the universe that makes him essentially immortal and capable of, well, all that stuff I put up there. No it's not. The power cosmic and the Phoenix force are two examples (see the Silver Surfer and Jean Grey). Superman Prime is also a lot more powerful than Flash (and even Black Flash), so are the superheroes which got hold of the Infinity Gauntlet or other similar artefacts. Not sure how you can compare the Phoenix Force. Anyhow, the power cosmic is very vague and frequently beaten -- it tends to be a certain "level" of the power cosmic. It's hard to compare Marvel to DC side by side. Silver Surfer still acts and thinks like a normal being and would, quite easily, be frozen in space and ripped to pieces by Flash. Some of the super intrinsic beings who operate the power cosmic, maybe not, but all superheroes who operate it tend to have the limits of being rather ordinary beings operating the power. Anyhow, with the infinity gauntlet, are any superheros, at their current base in continuity, in possession of it? Like, is there any superhero right now who, when listing their abilities, you would go "has the infinity gauntlet and is therefore omnipotent," ? I don't religiously keep up with comics, but usually the answer is no since that thing gets broken up frequently. Getting back to the phoenix force, Jean Grey isn't really a superhero whenever she's in full control of the phoenix force. She's just your atypical omnipotent superbeing who does as it wishes -- this is a disgustingly frequent and regurgitated plotline for the X-Men. Jean goes full phoenix to beat some threat, flies off wistfully.. The reason I brought up Flash is because he IS the speed force while retaining his entire superhero identity. Superman Prime is a supervillain. He USED to be good then went all evil and voila, he's excluded. And frankly, he's so casually engaged by so many forces (Normal Superman, The Green Lanterns fucking imprisoned him once his armor was broken), would you really put him over Flash when he's in absolute control of the speed force, considering who's beaten him before? Could just move himself and Prime near a natural red sun and he crumples.
First of all, the Silver Surfer would certainly not be "frozen in space and ripped to pieces by Flash". That's just not true - he's a more powerful being than Flash in practically every way. Regarding the Infinity Gauntlet, you are correct in saying that it is not currently being wielded by anyone. Regarding Jean Grey, she IS a superhero and for you to dismiss her as not when she's in full control of the phoenix force is clear intellectual dishonesty - last time I checked, Flash doesn't live at full speed. He's also not the speed force, he gets his powers from the speed force.
edit: by the way I'm pretty sure you're talking about Superboy Prime, not Superman Prime.
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Regarding the gauntlet, if you followed the infinity wars, the gems (after they defeated thanos) were never allowed to be placed together by eternity (or infinity) and the rest of the celestials. As in the infinity gaunlet was no more just the gems as individual pieces. Magus did something though to bypass that. Im not exactly sure what but that has been averted.
So the question now is, are we pertaining to the state of heroes at their peak levels or their current existing known storylines at present?
Like jean grey, the pheonix was there when needed but leaves right? Or superman whn supercharged by sun can lift quintillion tons but at the end caused his death,thereby actually destroying him in all star superman?
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Well super prime or phoenix since phoenix is the manifestation of all powers and life so can't be killed permanently.
Raistlin beat a god though, and ender wiggin is a boss.
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On September 11 2011 23:49 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 23:39 TwoToneTerran wrote:On September 11 2011 23:31 kwizach wrote:On September 11 2011 23:23 TwoToneTerran wrote:On September 11 2011 23:21 kwizach wrote:On September 11 2011 23:10 TwoToneTerran wrote:On September 11 2011 23:06 Paperplane wrote:On September 11 2011 22:39 FrankWalls wrote:On September 11 2011 21:04 RPR_Tempest wrote:On September 11 2011 21:01 Sinensis wrote:
[quote]
Yes he is and he is the only Saiyan in the Dragon Ball universe to achieve all possible transformations. ...Okay, here we go. Goku's powers pale in comparison to Vegito/Vegetto's powers, and if you watch the show that should be obvious, so no further explanation needed there. Outside of Buu and fused characters, Gohan is stronger than Goku. Why? Goku was scared to fight Super Buu, the same Buu Gohan destroyed without even trying. Game. Set. Match. i think at the end of the series goku is clearly the strongest (disregarding fusion forms...) I think Mystic Gohan comes very very close to SSJ3 Goku He's actually much, much stronger. But it's moot. Flash is the most powerful once he became the speed force. He basically is a fundamental force of the universe while still being an actual superhero, so he fits the criteria. Superman? Well, sorry, you can't do anything that pertains to movement! Oh, you'd like to attack him? Sorry, can't move. You'd like to think of a plan, or for that matter, anything at all and any course of action for which to take? Welp, that sucks, because thinking requires the transfer of information in your brains! You're completely frozen in space at his will with no ability to think or act, and, well, you can't pull the "hit him so fast he can't execute these powers" gimmick because he's literally the essence of all things speed. Goku? Ditto! Then an infinite mass punch through the brain. Flash, going all out, is the most absurdly powerful comic book character who still counts as a superhero. The downside is that using all of his power runs the risk of him disappearing forever (except not because comic books). In a full out, 1 on 1 fight, Flash > All and it's not even close. The speed force is far from the most powerful force in the omniverse. Yeah, but it's the most powerful force any generic superhero has. A lot of people are bringing up things like The Living Tribunal and The One Above All, but that's not in the parameters of the question -- just because they're found in comic books doesn't mean they're super heros. There's plenty of non-superhero comic book characters and they are one. The Flash is, by all accounts, your typical super hero in every way and controls ONE of the fundamental powers of the universe that makes him essentially immortal and capable of, well, all that stuff I put up there. No it's not. The power cosmic and the Phoenix force are two examples (see the Silver Surfer and Jean Grey). Superman Prime is also a lot more powerful than Flash (and even Black Flash), so are the superheroes which got hold of the Infinity Gauntlet or other similar artefacts. Not sure how you can compare the Phoenix Force. Anyhow, the power cosmic is very vague and frequently beaten -- it tends to be a certain "level" of the power cosmic. It's hard to compare Marvel to DC side by side. Silver Surfer still acts and thinks like a normal being and would, quite easily, be frozen in space and ripped to pieces by Flash. Some of the super intrinsic beings who operate the power cosmic, maybe not, but all superheroes who operate it tend to have the limits of being rather ordinary beings operating the power. Anyhow, with the infinity gauntlet, are any superheros, at their current base in continuity, in possession of it? Like, is there any superhero right now who, when listing their abilities, you would go "has the infinity gauntlet and is therefore omnipotent," ? I don't religiously keep up with comics, but usually the answer is no since that thing gets broken up frequently. Getting back to the phoenix force, Jean Grey isn't really a superhero whenever she's in full control of the phoenix force. She's just your atypical omnipotent superbeing who does as it wishes -- this is a disgustingly frequent and regurgitated plotline for the X-Men. Jean goes full phoenix to beat some threat, flies off wistfully.. The reason I brought up Flash is because he IS the speed force while retaining his entire superhero identity. Superman Prime is a supervillain. He USED to be good then went all evil and voila, he's excluded. And frankly, he's so casually engaged by so many forces (Normal Superman, The Green Lanterns fucking imprisoned him once his armor was broken), would you really put him over Flash when he's in absolute control of the speed force, considering who's beaten him before? Could just move himself and Prime near a natural red sun and he crumples. First of all, the Silver Surfer would certainly not be "frozen in space and ripped to pieces by Flash". That's just not true - he's a more powerful being than Flash in practically every way. Regarding the Infinity Gauntlet, you are correct in saying that it is not currently being wielded by anyone. Regarding Jean Grey, she IS a superhero and for you to dismiss her as not when she's in full control of the phoenix force is clear intellectual dishonesty - last time I checked, Flash doesn't live at full speed. He's also not the speed force, he gets his powers from the speed force.
Hm? I thought Wally West (or was it Allen? bleh I shouldn't be arguing when I'm sleep deprived) became the actual embodiment of the speed force when something happened to it in the infinite crisis (It's been awhile so maybe things have changed. It was after he died for like the fourth time, after he became the Black Flash and the whole black lantern corps thing).
While the Silver Surfer seemingly has the power to just waive off Galactus and do whatever he wants because "the power cosmic," he frequently gets removed from his board by pretty mundane means. Half the time he gets freaking tackled. I figure it wouldn't be nearly as easy, but my main beef with saying Surfer would beat Flash is that almost all of Surfer's actions require some course of though and deliberation and action. He can't think or act nearly as fast as all out speed force Flash, and could be absolutely frozen, or taken to the end or beginning of time where the power cosmic has no basis (one of the speed force's perks).
Jean Grey operates as "The Phoenix" in her normal identity frequently. But whenever she's at super powerful "dark phoenix" mode she's never in her superhero good guy mode. I think this is pretty ticky tack so Phoenix might be a good pick to win this whole hypothetical. At the very least, Flash is way up there. Whenever Phoenix went all "embodiment of the universe and all things" mode it seemed like it was just another one of those ambiguous, pointless omnipotent beings they toss into stories, as opposed to Jean Grey herself.
What I'm saying is, Flash (non-embodiment of the speed force Flash) once completely froze the entirety of all the heroes on Earth, including Superman, by just stealing all of their ability to operate, which included thinking or acting. If Flash sees you and can think as fast or faster than you and you aren't somehow immune to the speed force, he can trap you and rip you apart atom by atom.
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Favorite Hero:Batman
Strongest Hero: Batman.
Given sufficient prep time, Batman can beat any superhero.
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Well, it seems to come down to three criteria:
1.) Actual superhero or brainfart plot device
One could say that omega-level mutants like Franklin Richards or the Phoenix, or characters like Superman Prime, Doctor Manhattan, or that whoever controls the Heart of the Universe, the Infinity Gauntlet, the Ultimate Nullifier, or whatever is basically a god. But I'd say that those aren't real superheroes in the sense of a protagonist of an adventure, but rather plot devices in the stories of other supers. A comic book with Superman Prime as the good guy would have the format of a philosophical tractatus, not unlike the theodicy, but it sure as hell wouldn't include the least bit of suspense.
2.) What a character could do compared to what they would do
Many effectively omnipotent characters do not use their powers to their full extent. Sure, the silver surfer could encase his enemies in solid phlebotium, pick them up and fly into a supernova... but instead, he would go all emo during a brawl about how he'd not be Norrin anymore if he did that. Spawn could tap into the powers of hell and unleash hordes of demons on his enemies, but he'd become a slave of Malebolgia in no time. The Flash could run at the speed of just-faster-than-everything-else, but he might get sucked into the speed force (again). In other words, the most delimiting factor to their powers seems to be that they make inexplicably dumb decisions nearly all the time - in fact, this is the reason for the Batman being able to hold up here, because his power seems to be the unique ability of lateral thinking.
3.) Weaknesses and blanket immunities
In order to avoid the "boring invincible hero" effect, most powerful characters also have enormous weaknesses to counter their strengths. Now, those weaknesses come in two forms - either they make sense or they don't. Superman's kryptonite is nothing else than a plot device, and its existence completely relies on the needs of the storyline... when basically every bankrobber carries meteorite dust in his pocket, or when Bruce Wayne synthesizes green rocks, it's not because it makes sense, but because the writer has run out of ideas. On the other hand, certain weaknesses are stringent with a superhero's powers: The Flash need traction. The Human Torch needs oxygen. It's easy to see why.
In a duel between [insert random omnipotent superhero] and [insert random omnipotent superhero], it therefore seems to come down to whoever has the least exploitable weaknesses and the most blanket immunities against instant annihilation. It has been argued that the Flash could just go back in time, punch someone's pregnant mother in the belly, then return to fight the retarded version of whoever attacked him in the first place. If the Flash would do such things (see 2.), this would rule out most, if not all, mutants and metahumans - while, for example, Thor would be fine because the Flash couldn't as easily punch Jörd in the belly. However, that doesn't make Thor any more powerful... it's just some blanket immunity vs. that particular form of time travel.
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On September 12 2011 00:30 wei2coolman wrote:
Favorite Hero:Batman
Strongest Hero: Batman.
Given sufficient prep time, Batman can beat any superhero.
Favorite Hero:Batman
Strongest Hero: Batman.
Opinion: Biased. Nuff said.
gee gee no ree
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Theoretically the strongest superhero in DC would be anyone in the green lantern corps as his powers are only limited by his imagination and the ring is the strongest weapon in the DC universe as mentioned by the writers themselves.
Although superman prime did beat a top tier green lantern before, it was only because that green lantern was still considered a rookie ( a skilled one but a rookie non the less) and they were fighting over a substance which was like kyrptonite to green lanterns.
The sentry would be the strongest Earth based Marvel Hero because a) he is the only one capable and has beaten the Hulk (who was considered by many to be the strongest) solo, and b) The Hulk is barely considered a hero.
The Marvel universe has a whole bunch of cosmic hero crap going on that I don't follow and not to sure about, but I guess Silver surfer would be #1 cosmic hero?
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On September 12 2011 00:23 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 23:49 kwizach wrote:On September 11 2011 23:39 TwoToneTerran wrote:On September 11 2011 23:31 kwizach wrote:On September 11 2011 23:23 TwoToneTerran wrote:On September 11 2011 23:21 kwizach wrote:On September 11 2011 23:10 TwoToneTerran wrote:On September 11 2011 23:06 Paperplane wrote:On September 11 2011 22:39 FrankWalls wrote:On September 11 2011 21:04 RPR_Tempest wrote:
[quote]
...Okay, here we go.
Goku's powers pale in comparison to Vegito/Vegetto's powers, and if you watch the show that should be obvious, so no further explanation needed there. Outside of Buu and fused characters, Gohan is stronger than Goku.
Why?
Goku was scared to fight Super Buu, the same Buu Gohan destroyed without even trying.
Game. Set. Match. i think at the end of the series goku is clearly the strongest (disregarding fusion forms...) I think Mystic Gohan comes very very close to SSJ3 Goku He's actually much, much stronger. But it's moot. Flash is the most powerful once he became the speed force. He basically is a fundamental force of the universe while still being an actual superhero, so he fits the criteria. Superman? Well, sorry, you can't do anything that pertains to movement! Oh, you'd like to attack him? Sorry, can't move. You'd like to think of a plan, or for that matter, anything at all and any course of action for which to take? Welp, that sucks, because thinking requires the transfer of information in your brains! You're completely frozen in space at his will with no ability to think or act, and, well, you can't pull the "hit him so fast he can't execute these powers" gimmick because he's literally the essence of all things speed. Goku? Ditto! Then an infinite mass punch through the brain. Flash, going all out, is the most absurdly powerful comic book character who still counts as a superhero. The downside is that using all of his power runs the risk of him disappearing forever (except not because comic books). In a full out, 1 on 1 fight, Flash > All and it's not even close. The speed force is far from the most powerful force in the omniverse. Yeah, but it's the most powerful force any generic superhero has. A lot of people are bringing up things like The Living Tribunal and The One Above All, but that's not in the parameters of the question -- just because they're found in comic books doesn't mean they're super heros. There's plenty of non-superhero comic book characters and they are one. The Flash is, by all accounts, your typical super hero in every way and controls ONE of the fundamental powers of the universe that makes him essentially immortal and capable of, well, all that stuff I put up there. No it's not. The power cosmic and the Phoenix force are two examples (see the Silver Surfer and Jean Grey). Superman Prime is also a lot more powerful than Flash (and even Black Flash), so are the superheroes which got hold of the Infinity Gauntlet or other similar artefacts. Not sure how you can compare the Phoenix Force. Anyhow, the power cosmic is very vague and frequently beaten -- it tends to be a certain "level" of the power cosmic. It's hard to compare Marvel to DC side by side. Silver Surfer still acts and thinks like a normal being and would, quite easily, be frozen in space and ripped to pieces by Flash. Some of the super intrinsic beings who operate the power cosmic, maybe not, but all superheroes who operate it tend to have the limits of being rather ordinary beings operating the power. Anyhow, with the infinity gauntlet, are any superheros, at their current base in continuity, in possession of it? Like, is there any superhero right now who, when listing their abilities, you would go "has the infinity gauntlet and is therefore omnipotent," ? I don't religiously keep up with comics, but usually the answer is no since that thing gets broken up frequently. Getting back to the phoenix force, Jean Grey isn't really a superhero whenever she's in full control of the phoenix force. She's just your atypical omnipotent superbeing who does as it wishes -- this is a disgustingly frequent and regurgitated plotline for the X-Men. Jean goes full phoenix to beat some threat, flies off wistfully.. The reason I brought up Flash is because he IS the speed force while retaining his entire superhero identity. Superman Prime is a supervillain. He USED to be good then went all evil and voila, he's excluded. And frankly, he's so casually engaged by so many forces (Normal Superman, The Green Lanterns fucking imprisoned him once his armor was broken), would you really put him over Flash when he's in absolute control of the speed force, considering who's beaten him before? Could just move himself and Prime near a natural red sun and he crumples. First of all, the Silver Surfer would certainly not be "frozen in space and ripped to pieces by Flash". That's just not true - he's a more powerful being than Flash in practically every way. Regarding the Infinity Gauntlet, you are correct in saying that it is not currently being wielded by anyone. Regarding Jean Grey, she IS a superhero and for you to dismiss her as not when she's in full control of the phoenix force is clear intellectual dishonesty - last time I checked, Flash doesn't live at full speed. He's also not the speed force, he gets his powers from the speed force. Hm? I thought Wally West (or was it Allen? bleh I shouldn't be arguing when I'm sleep deprived) became the actual embodiment of the speed force when something happened to it in the infinite crisis (It's been awhile so maybe things have changed. It was after he died for like the fourth time, after he became the Black Flash and the whole black lantern corps thing). While the Silver Surfer seemingly has the power to just waive off Galactus and do whatever he wants because "the power cosmic," he frequently gets removed from his board by pretty mundane means. Half the time he gets freaking tackled. I figure it wouldn't be nearly as easy, but my main beef with saying Surfer would beat Flash is that almost all of Surfer's actions require some course of though and deliberation and action. He can't think or act nearly as fast as all out speed force Flash, and could be absolutely frozen, or taken to the end or beginning of time where the power cosmic has no basis (one of the speed force's perks). Jean Grey operates as "The Phoenix" in her normal identity frequently. But whenever she's at super powerful "dark phoenix" mode she's never in her superhero good guy mode. I think this is pretty ticky tack so Phoenix might be a good pick to win this whole hypothetical. At the very least, Flash is way up there. Whenever Phoenix went all "embodiment of the universe and all things" mode it seemed like it was just another one of those ambiguous, pointless omnipotent beings they toss into stories, as opposed to Jean Grey herself. What I'm saying is, Flash (non-embodiment of the speed force Flash) once completely froze the entirety of all the heroes on Earth, including Superman, by just stealing all of their ability to operate, which included thinking or acting. If Flash sees you and can think as fast or faster than you and you aren't somehow immune to the speed force, he can trap you and rip you apart atom by atom.
I know Wally West (and others) have become the embodiment of the Speed Force in the past, but I did not think it was still currently the case. It's possible, so I may be wrong. That doesn't really matter however, since I maintain that the Speed Force is not the most powerful force wielded by superheroes in the omniverse.
The Silver Surfer does not get his powers from his board (only in the movie), so I'm not sure what your point is. It is hard to know which one is faster, since the Surfer can move/react/think way faster than the speed of light, and since he is more powerful than Flash in every other department he would easily have the upper hand. Finally, I don't think your objection to Jean Grey has merit since she has been shown to be herself while having the power of the Phoenix.
On September 12 2011 00:30 wei2coolman wrote:
Favorite Hero:Batman
Strongest Hero: Batman.
Given sufficient prep time, Batman can beat any superhero.
No. That's just a dumb cliché that Batman fanboys spout because of how Batman stories are constructed.
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Strongest = the Hulk, how can this even be a debate? WTF!
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Alright, I know you guys really like Goku, Superman, etc., but let's be realistic.
Haruhi is the strongest super hero.
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Favorite superhero would probably have to be batman
But in terms of strongest I'd put thor/hulk (depending on the day) or the flash for top contenders. All the debate about silver surfer is moot. He was knocked out by the thing.
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On September 12 2011 04:03 Mente wrote:
Favorite superhero would probably have to be batman
But in terms of strongest I'd put thor/hulk (depending on the day) or the flash for top contenders. All the debate about silver surfer is moot. He was knocked out by the thing.
It is established beyond debate that he is vastly more powerful than the thing (and more powerful than the hulk). Which fight are you referring to?
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On September 12 2011 03:55 Zeke50100 wrote:
Alright, I know you guys really like Goku, Superman, etc., but let's be realistic.
Haruhi is the strongest super hero.
Since we are still missing an ending I don't know about that. Yuki is theoretically stronger, but maybe she only exists because Haruhi wants her to, etc... Or Kyon is the actual god. Who knows. 
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EPT
