The preview is only out right now, it's set to be released later this year. The preview follow korean highschool girls around and give us westerners a feel for what a competitive asian society is like. It's interesting to say the least. What I don't like is how the film maker keeps on pushing western ideals in her short monologues, but hey I guess it adds to the film by contrasting the two cultures.
PS. white chick is cute =)
In sixty short years, South Korea went from being one of the poorest countries in Asia to having the world's 13th largest economy. Korean students have some of the highest test scores in the world, and a higher rate of acceptance into American Ivy Leagues than any other foreign country. But Korea also leads the world in two not quite so stunning ways- the highest rate of plastic surgery per capita, and a higher suicide rate than any other developed nation.
So. What's life like for a Korean student? In one of the most competitive societies in the world, how does one find their place? What does it take to achieve your aspirations and goals? Our documentary will take a look at the lives of five Korean teenagers on the verge of either reaching- or losing- their dreams. The film will follow the students during the most stressful time of their lives- their last year of high school. After studying for roughly sixteen hours each day, their futures boil down to one last exam. On November 10th, 2011, thousands of high school seniors will take a nine hour test that for many, will determine their economic and social status for the rest of their lives.
On August 27 2011 02:08 GizmoPT wrote: god that black teacher should be fired teaching that crap......
what the hell really teaching beauty surgeries are good ? -.-
i got the feeling she was trying to expand their definition of beauty, cuz she noticed so many girls trying to modify themselves. i wonder how the guys have time for starcraft 2, is this really the korea i know?!
On August 27 2011 02:08 GizmoPT wrote: god that black teacher should be fired teaching that crap......
what the hell really teaching beauty surgeries are good ? -.-
i got the feeling she was trying to expand their definition of beauty, cuz she noticed so many girls trying to modify themselves. i wonder how the guys have time for starcraft 2, is this really the korea i know?!
That's why someone like Polt, who is a progamer and going to a good university at the same time is very very impressive.
Why is this thread here? You wanted to make sure you got the OP by the time this becomes relevant or...? This seems a little premature, moreover besides stating that anyone would find this interresting or not there really isn't anything to discuss about with the documentary not being released and all.
On August 27 2011 02:08 GizmoPT wrote: god that black teacher should be fired teaching that crap......
what the hell really teaching beauty surgeries are good ? -.-
i got the feeling she was trying to expand their definition of beauty, cuz she noticed so many girls trying to modify themselves. i wonder how the guys have time for starcraft 2, is this really the korea i know?!
That's why someone like Polt, who is a progamer and going to a good university at the same time is very very impressive.
On August 27 2011 02:23 PepperoniPiZZa wrote: Sang kuh pul is really creepy. Are korean schoolgirls really that obsessed with looking like western girls?
I think they're all beautiful :3
These are traditional East Asian beauty standards . . it has nothing to do with white people.
Koreans don't like European eyes, as most Europeans have deepset eyes and prominent brows.
They want to look like the East Asians who naturally have double eyelids (about a quarter in Korea and over half in some parts of China)
Sadly this is the truth, I live in Sydney and I know quite a few Korean friends who go back to Korea for the summer and come back with a new face. They're only 14 as well...
Then there are those who are westernised and don't really care for these cultural fads.
Of those Korean girls that I know from uni who came from Korea there are a few who never had surgery (or so they say), because they were born with double lid and a tall nose to begin with.
If you look at Kpop music etc, you'll see it's the girls who have to compete for the guys, not the guys chasing the girl. It's really weird, yet sad at the same time because society places more pressure on women to begin with compared to men.
Edit: Also what Chen Chen says is true, East Asian double lids and ideal facial structure is really different compared to Caucasians
I'm korean and I'm so thankful that I came to USA at early age. I feel so bad for these girls who think they have to resort to plastic surgeries. Man, those sucides.... Korean education is what brought Korea to a high-value country but it also has so many side effects. On the side note, I'm very impressed by the director's film making. She is so young but so bold. I'll definetly keep my eyes on this film when it comes out.
Really interesting piece of film, it's a shame how young people have their ideals on beauty created for them by others (physically). I'm 18 (I consider that young xD) and for me personality triumphs over looks, I'd rather have a great relationship with any woman with a great personality, rather than a boring one with a beautiful woman.
On August 27 2011 02:17 DisneylandSC wrote: Release: August 2012...
Why is this thread here? You wanted to make sure you got the OP by the time this becomes relevant or...? This seems a little premature, moreover besides stating that anyone would find this interresting or not there really isn't anything to discuss about with the documentary not being released and all.
theres a lot to be discussed with an 18 minute video, relax lol...pretty sure that trailer shed some interesting facts that a lot of non-koreans weren't aware of.
That is the problem with placing such strict importance on testing. There has to be a happy medium somewhere I don't think any country has it right thus far.
It's sad how their conception of beauty reached that far. They're highly competitive but there's something's terribly wrong with the way they go about it. Someone here pledge $1000 then tell us about the lunch hehe.
On August 27 2011 02:17 DisneylandSC wrote: Release: August 2012...
Why is this thread here? You wanted to make sure you got the OP by the time this becomes relevant or...? This seems a little premature, moreover besides stating that anyone would find this interresting or not there really isn't anything to discuss about with the documentary not being released and all.
Kelley Katzenmeyer is a nineteen-year-old American filmmaker and visual artist. As a high school senior, she won the 2010 YoungArts Gold Award in Cinema and was nominated as a Presidential Scholar in the Arts, meeting President Obama. During high school, her short film "To Be Remembered" screened at film festivals across America, including the Nashville Film Festival, one of the oldest, longest-running film festivals in the United States. After graduating from the NC School of the Arts in 2010, Kelley received a full scholarship from the U.S. Department of State to study abroad in South Korea. Recently accepted into Columbia University, she has deferred admission in order to direct a documentary feature film on Korean high school students. Currently, Kelley lives in Seoul, South Korea.
Kelley Katzenmeyer is a nineteen-year-old American filmmaker and visual artist. As a high school senior, she won the 2010 YoungArts Gold Award in Cinema and was nominated as a Presidential Scholar in the Arts, meeting President Obama. During high school, her short film "To Be Remembered" screened at film festivals across America, including the Nashville Film Festival, one of the oldest, longest-running film festivals in the United States. After graduating from the NC School of the Arts in 2010, Kelley received a full scholarship from the U.S. Department of State to study abroad in South Korea. Recently accepted into Columbia University, she has deferred admission in order to direct a documentary feature film on Korean high school students. Currently, Kelley lives in Seoul, South Korea.
I read that, of course. I wouldn't call someone bad before trying to look something about her, especially since there's a big about the film makers button, but I feel that the issue of korean education is very interesting and deserves to be handled perfectly. I'm not really saying that she won't do a good job, I'm just afraid that she might make some little, yet crucial mistakes, that could severely hinder the importance of the message she's trying to convey
If really everyone studies like that shouldn't Korea be a country full of lawyers and doctores? Also makes me wonder if their average education and their elite scientists really are that far above that of the in comparison lazy western cultures.
Kelley Katzenmeyer is a nineteen-year-old American filmmaker and visual artist. As a high school senior, she won the 2010 YoungArts Gold Award in Cinema and was nominated as a Presidential Scholar in the Arts, meeting President Obama. During high school, her short film "To Be Remembered" screened at film festivals across America, including the Nashville Film Festival, one of the oldest, longest-running film festivals in the United States. After graduating from the NC School of the Arts in 2010, Kelley received a full scholarship from the U.S. Department of State to study abroad in South Korea. Recently accepted into Columbia University, she has deferred admission in order to direct a documentary feature film on Korean high school students. Currently, Kelley lives in Seoul, South Korea.
I read that, of course. I wouldn't call someone bad before trying to look something about her, especially since there's a big about the film makers button, but I feel that the issue of korean education is very interesting and deserves to be handled perfectly. I'm not really saying that she won't do a good job, I'm just afraid that she might make some little, yet crucial mistakes, that could severely hinder the importance of the message she's trying to convey
If really everyone studies like that shouldn't Korea be a country full of lawyers and doctores? Also makes me wonder if their average education and their elite scientists really are that far above that of the in comparison lazy western cultures.
If a vast majority of people study like that, obviously only a select would still be able to achieve competitive jobs in the marketplace. Job roles are determined by demand not by supply.
Moreover, the top of these fields whether it be in Korea and America should be very similar in terms of their ability. As being at the top of any field requires intellect, creativity, and determination. The difference is that countries which place a greater emphasis on education most likely have a greater base where there are probably more people at that high level aiming for those competitive jobs.
That's pretty damn different from what I've experienced. I kinda wonder if a student in that type of environment just kinda "whatevered" through school but focuses a lot on networking and social relations. How would that student's future be like in terms of social and economic status? That seems to be the case in our western society, practically everyone has a degree, but those who do may still not acquire jobs because of poor social skills.
And I'm not sure if its the white girl speaking korean and interviewing, but damn if it is, her korean is so fluent and pretty damn cute.
On August 27 2011 03:25 Boxihobo wrote: A friend of mine live in China and said the same that every girl wants to look like an american/european which is really sad :-c
Haha with 63% of the American population overweight or obese, they definitely don't want to look like the general American.
I don't get it. First I thought the documentary was praising koreans for studying hard and then the subject kinda changed to problems with surgery and beauty? me so confused...
Hey since we're on the topic of physical beauty in Korea, what are "nice collarbones" for Koreans? I've never considered collarbones when evaluating someone's beauty/handsomeness. Can someone explain this?
in-depth stuff in high school shouldn't take anywhere close to 16 hours a day. it's probably just repetition for repetition's sake with no methodology.
blind worship of system and rigid expectations etc
if you are studying 16 hours a day in hs then i expect grad level work once you go into college.
16 hours is common for most asian education system. may be hongkong taiwan and japan might be different but 16 hours is the standard if you want to get into a university.
Getting in university now a day is a must or else you will have no chance getting a well paid job in asia.
edit: tbh you think passing SAT is hard? any middle level student in asia with well learned English can topped out SAT easily. For me i didnt need to take the SAT since im in canada but i did took an AP math course and got an AP credit by the exam. All i did in grade 12th in canada is play dota/watch BW 8 hours a day. I didnt do any homework unless they affect my grades. I passed my AP math course with 98 avg and a total of 80+ avg on my last semester in canadian high school. All i know is dota dota BW BW.
On August 27 2011 03:32 The_LiNk wrote: Hey since we're on the topic of physical beauty in Korea, what are "nice collarbones" for Koreans? I've never considered collarbones when evaluating someone's beauty/handsomeness. Can someone explain this?
I read on reddit they call Hannah Choi the interviewer/translator for GSL "Marauder Woman" because of her wider than average shoulders. Source It seems in Korea shit like that really matters. This doc has me really interested. I hope more Koreans will chime in here in the mean time about why this is such a popular attitude in Korea
The school system and mentality in Korea and neighboring Asian countries is intense. There is nothing wrong in wanting to be an educated person and striving to be successful in the future, but the amount of hours that goes into it is crazy. 16 hours is way too much and it does not help all students. I know for sure that it would do more harm than good if I study for about 16 hours. The longest I have every studied ranged from about 5 - 8 hours depending on the course.
Besides that, there is also the suicide rate in Korea and other countries since there is so much pressure on the students that they would rather die. It is due to different reasons like whether or not they think they can succeed, don't want to embarrass their family, etc. I really hope this change in any country that practices this.
On August 27 2011 03:54 zoLo wrote: The school system and mentality in Korea and neighboring Asian countries is intense. There is nothing wrong in wanting to be an educated person and striving to be successful in the future, but the amount of hours that goes into it is crazy. 16 hours is way too much and it does not help all students. I know for sure that it would do more harm than good if I study for about 16 hours. The longest I have every studied ranged from about 5 - 8 hours depending on the course.
Besides that, there is also the suicide rate in Korea and other countries since there is so much pressure on the students that they would rather die. It is due to different reasons like whether or not they think they can succeed, don't want to embarrass their family, etc. I really hope this change in any country that practices this.
i dunno man, i think their system works okay. some people die from it sure.. but the western system should change before the korean one.. from personal experience i know that most people do not study in highschool and at least fifty percent of them do drugs and just drink and screw eachother... then go to college to get some random degree and can't find a job afterwards. it's in the news everywhere saying that people can't find jobs after university/college now adays in US and canada.
studying for sat and other standardized tests is...gaming the system. although there is a perverse sort of correction here, since studying for them distorts the intelligence measured by the test but compensates by indicating dedication/singletrackedness.
so in the end the score probably is okay.
but seriously even the sat is so easy that you shouldn't need to study for it.
Surprising that GPA doesn't seem to take any role in college admissions. In the US, it's pretty much the most important thing even more so than standardized exams (I've talked to admissions boards and I know from friends who went to really easy ass public schools). I have a friend who got 2400 on the SAT, took over 10 AP exams (mostly 5s, couple 4's), was involved in several clubs and sports, but only had 4.4 GPA because it was the highest possible at his crazy private school (he only ever got A's), etc.. He was not accepted into any Ivy Leagues or Stanford to which he applied.
So it really surprises me that in Korea, one exam means everything. I think that's kind of dumb... one bad day, and you're screwed.
Coincidentally, I just watched a BBC documentary series today about schools in China. It was surprisingly enjoyable! I'm not from China but being an Asian, I can definitely relate to the exam stress that these kids feel. College in America (where I am now) seems so much more relaxed in comparison.
Here's the link to the documentary on Youtube. I highly recommend it.
On August 27 2011 04:12 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: Surprising that GPA doesn't seem to take any role in college admissions. In the US, it's pretty much the most important thing even more so than standardized exams (I've talked to admissions boards and I know from friends who went to really easy ass public schools). I have a friend who got 2400 on the SAT, took over 10 AP exams (mostly 5s, couple 4's), was involved in several clubs and sports, but only had 4.4 GPA because it was the highest possible at his crazy private school (he only ever got A's), etc.. He was not accepted into any Ivy Leagues or Stanford to which he applied.
So it really surprises me that in Korea, one exam means everything. I think that's kind of dumb... one bad day, and you're screwed.
You can take the exam again the year after and, as far as I understand, your previous results don't inhibit your chance of getting in later.
Of course, your parents will be pissed and they might just tell you to get a blue collar job. It really depends if your family is willing to support you for another year while you study for the exam again. Same thing in China.
Isn't the plastic surgery statistic a little misleading? Double eyelid "surgery" is pretty damn safe and non-intrusive. I think it's comparable to getting braces in the US.
This is the problem with projecting Western values regarding "plastic surgery" on other cultures. The kinds of surgery that are available aren't the same!
On August 27 2011 03:32 The_LiNk wrote: Hey since we're on the topic of physical beauty in Korea, what are "nice collarbones" for Koreans? I've never considered collarbones when evaluating someone's beauty/handsomeness. Can someone explain this?
I read on reddit they call Hannah Choi the interviewer/translator for GSL "Marauder Woman" because of her wider than average shoulders. Source It seems in Korea shit like that really matters. This doc has me really interested. I hope more Koreans will chime in here in the mean time about why this is such a popular attitude in Korea
Unfortunately, Korea is one of the most superficial and vain countries in the world. I'm Korean-American, and the first time I was in Korea, it was just so strange to see everyone try so hard to be well-groomed. The obsession with beauty is acknowledged publicly, and is generally more acceptable than in the states. While it's good to understand that physical appearance is more of a factor in success and happiness than we'd like to admit, it seems a bit pathological over there.
Tbh, a lot of Korean women, and Asians in general, are naturally not pretty. Many Asians agree Asian people are on average uglier than Westerners. I think it's sad, but true. Asians make up for it by aging a lot better and generally being much healthier/slender than their Western counterparts.
Unfortunately, Korea is one of the most superficial and vain countries in the world.
Is this really true though? Pretty much every teen magazine in the US is dedicated to fashion and beauty. I don't see any evidence that Korea is more vain than other Asian countries or the US or Europe.
Very interesting subject. Im really looking forward to see the documentary finished. Also i do really respect the film's director by picking this subject and going for it in the way she is.
Unfortunately, Korea is one of the most superficial and vain countries in the world.
Is this really true though? Pretty much every teen magazine in the US is dedicated to fashion and beauty. I don't see any evidence that Korea is more vain than other Asian countries or the US or Europe.
If you watch the clip you can see that plastic surgery is practically ingrained into the modern society, as it is not seen as something unusual and/or controversial.
I always found it strange that plastic surgery is incredibly stigmatized while make up, designer fashion, hair dues etc. are generally excepted. It honestly not a big leap from make up to surgery. In the end you are simply making yourself beautiful.
Sweden is incredibly vain, yet it is without the surgery. I heard on the radio that bosses thought a women without make up were unprofessional and would not be hired. Double standards are always present. I would not be surprised if plastic surgery was mainstream in the western world in 20 years.
Wow, even in my private high school people are not as studious or obsessed with looks, damn, I could go to Korea, be a good student and get some girl just by telling her her eyes aren't ugly lol. And play starcraft. yeah don't forget that.
So basically, a college student did all this? This bit, even though it was only 20 minutes... there was just so much information, and there wasn't any point where I asked myself "why the hell is this in here?"
Christ, the documentary is incredibly depressing tbh. I do hope Starcraft gets mentioned as part of the fun haha.
Unfortunately, Korea is one of the most superficial and vain countries in the world.
Is this really true though? Pretty much every teen magazine in the US is dedicated to fashion and beauty. I don't see any evidence that Korea is more vain than other Asian countries or the US or Europe.
If you watch the clip you can see that plastic surgery is practically ingrained into the modern society, as it is not seen as something unusual and/or controversial.
Like I said earlier, we're talking about a very simple, non-intrusive and safe procedure. Braces are ingrained in modern US society, as is makeup and fashion. You'll see far more people in the US go to tanning salons. Hell, so many people in the US get their wisdom teeth removed for essentially aesthetic reasons, and that is far more intrusive than this. I don't see any particular reason to conclude that popularity of double-eyelid surgery means a country is more vain than countries that value other methods of beauty.
I need to go to Korea with my white skin, double eyelids and nose that sticks out and get me some Korean poomtang.
Seriously though its pretty disturbing, but its similar to what you'll see in Western society, albeit more extreme. I prefer the honesty about people's looks, although I guess they could be less blunt. I find it really annoying when girls put themselves down so their friends will disagree with them.
On August 27 2011 04:22 StorkHwaiting wrote: Tbh, a lot of Korean women, and Asians in general, are naturally not pretty. Many Asians agree Asian people are on average uglier than Westerners. I think it's sad, but true. Asians make up for it by aging a lot better and generally being much healthier/slender than their Western counterparts.
That is pretty subjective. I just think that is western-centric perspective; of course, it is also true many koreans (unfortunately) have this perspective. This isn't the case for me and I would take an "average" Asian girl over a "hot" caucasian girl any day, given everything else is equal.
Unfortunately, Korea is one of the most superficial and vain countries in the world.
Is this really true though? Pretty much every teen magazine in the US is dedicated to fashion and beauty. I don't see any evidence that Korea is more vain than other Asian countries or the US or Europe.
If you watch the clip you can see that plastic surgery is practically ingrained into the modern society, as it is not seen as something unusual and/or controversial.
Like I said earlier, we're talking about a very simple, non-intrusive and safe procedure. Braces are ingrained in modern US society, as is makeup and fashion. You'll see far more people in the US go to tanning salons. Hell, so many people in the US get their wisdom teeth removed for essentially aesthetic reasons, and that is far more intrusive than this. I don't see any particular reason to conclude that popularity of double-eyelid surgery means a country is more vain than countries that value other methods of beauty.
Why are you only talking about eyelid surgery? The girl in video clearly mentioned getting hear nose done, not to mention that pretty much every TV-personality in Korea has had surgery (not only eyelids). I would also say fashion is more important in Korea than America, from what I've read and seen.
Overall, I would give you that koreans are much more image-conscious and competitive (which tend to feed into each other) than a place like US, but claiming things like that "korea is the most vain country in the world" is going too far.
Plastic surgery is NOT uncontroversial, although it is becoming increasingly accepted. Beyond the somewhat ubiquitous eyelid surgery, the other operations are looked upon with more significance and may bring some controversy.
They are not studying 16 hours a day, they are making videos and practicing dance sequences and socializing. If anyone wants plastic surgery, I don't mind. Whenever someone said "in America" in the video it cracked me up. because IN AMERICA, you know, we believe in TRUE AMERICAN IDEALS you know...we study 16 hours a day FOR AMERICA! USA USA USA! Meanwhile in AMERICA our idols are overweight and unsightly? Hey for AMERICA sonic boom...flash kick...For AMERICA, sonicccccccc hurricannn yeah! AMERICA
On August 27 2011 04:22 StorkHwaiting wrote: Tbh, a lot of Korean women, and Asians in general, are naturally not pretty. Many Asians agree Asian people are on average uglier than Westerners. I think it's sad, but true. Asians make up for it by aging a lot better and generally being much healthier/slender than their Western counterparts.
That is pretty subjective. I just think that is western-centric perspective; of course, it is also true many koreans (unfortunately) have this perspective. This isn't the case for me and I would take an "average" Asian girl over a "hot" caucasian girl any day, given everything else is equal.
I don't see how it's a western-centric perspective. Most Westerners think Asians are exotic and hot, even ones that are ugly (Like Lucy Liu). To me, it's a bigger tell when Asians themselves agree Asians are not good looking. It's rare for a culture to be self-hating.
Then again, highest avg IQ's are Jewish people then Asians. Both these populations have a long history of self-loathing LOL. So maybe intelligence is a factor? XD
On August 27 2011 04:46 SolidGasPro wrote: I'd bang any of the girls mentioned by movie or comments providing i get enough whiskey and I won't meet them again.
Spread this message to depressed Korean girls!
I think they want the relationship more than the sex.
I think I can empathize with these korean high schoolers. There are many parallels i find in Korea and Singapore, and I have a good korean friend that is studying with me in secondary (high school) right now. The high emphasize on tests and exams is staggering, creating a very prominent tuition culture in both societies. Well, tuition in our countries is like, going to a "private school/centre" after school to do more work because of the competitiveness in education. Its really crazy and demoralizing to know that one exam, can really determine your life.
I'm going to use Singapore as an example of a stereotypical highschooler in a modern eastern asian society. Our GSE A Level's is crazy competitive. The grading system is A-U with A-E as passes and S and U as a fail grade. To get into a local university, you'll need to get at least a BBBB and to get into a good course its AAAA. Its utter madness. Btw, its 4am here in SIngapore and I'm still cramming for my examination in 2 months.
It is no different from other modern eastern societies like Hongkong and Korea.
Edit: I wrote this without first reading fully the OP, and realised most points are already there. So, yes, 16 hours, and most of the time, it's not enough.
Unfortunately, Korea is one of the most superficial and vain countries in the world.
Is this really true though? Pretty much every teen magazine in the US is dedicated to fashion and beauty. I don't see any evidence that Korea is more vain than other Asian countries or the US or Europe.
If you watch the clip you can see that plastic surgery is practically ingrained into the modern society, as it is not seen as something unusual and/or controversial.
Like I said earlier, we're talking about a very simple, non-intrusive and safe procedure. Braces are ingrained in modern US society, as is makeup and fashion. You'll see far more people in the US go to tanning salons. Hell, so many people in the US get their wisdom teeth removed for essentially aesthetic reasons, and that is far more intrusive than this. I don't see any particular reason to conclude that popularity of double-eyelid surgery means a country is more vain than countries that value other methods of beauty.
Why are you only talking about eyelid surgery? The girl in video clearly mentioned getting hear nose done, not to mention that pretty much every TV-personality in Korea has had surgery (not only eyelids). I would also say fashion is more important in Korea than America, from what I've read and seen.
Because the misleading "Korea leads the world in plastic surgery" is pretty much driven by eyelid surgery. And my point is that we're projecting Western values of plastic surgery on a different culture. It would be a lot like Asians criticizing us for being so obsessed with teeth straightening procedures, or skin-tanning procedures, or boob-enhancing procedures. The point is, there is simply zero evidence that Korea is somehow more concerned about looks than any other rich country.
Unfortunately, Korea is one of the most superficial and vain countries in the world.
Is this really true though? Pretty much every teen magazine in the US is dedicated to fashion and beauty. I don't see any evidence that Korea is more vain than other Asian countries or the US or Europe.
If you watch the clip you can see that plastic surgery is practically ingrained into the modern society, as it is not seen as something unusual and/or controversial.
Like I said earlier, we're talking about a very simple, non-intrusive and safe procedure. Braces are ingrained in modern US society, as is makeup and fashion. You'll see far more people in the US go to tanning salons. Hell, so many people in the US get their wisdom teeth removed for essentially aesthetic reasons, and that is far more intrusive than this. I don't see any particular reason to conclude that popularity of double-eyelid surgery means a country is more vain than countries that value other methods of beauty.
It's not that these things are popular that is the problem. The problem is that society views these things as "requirements" to be beautiful. If you don't have have white fair skin, double eye-lids, and a small face, you will never be called beautiful in korea.
Every single society has their own standards of beauty; it's called evolution. And in particular, rich countries spend a lot of money and time on meeting such standards, because they can. I see no reason to criticize Korean society simply because their standard is different than ours.
On August 27 2011 04:22 StorkHwaiting wrote: Tbh, a lot of Korean women, and Asians in general, are naturally not pretty. Many Asians agree Asian people are on average uglier than Westerners. I think it's sad, but true. Asians make up for it by aging a lot better and generally being much healthier/slender than their Western counterparts.
That is pretty subjective. I just think that is western-centric perspective; of course, it is also true many koreans (unfortunately) have this perspective. This isn't the case for me and I would take an "average" Asian girl over a "hot" caucasian girl any day, given everything else is equal.
I don't see how it's a western-centric perspective. Most Westerners think Asians are exotic and hot, even ones that are ugly (Like Lucy Liu). To me, it's a bigger tell when Asians themselves agree Asians are not good looking. It's rare for a culture to be self-hating.
Then again, highest avg IQ's are Jewish people then Asians. Both these populations have a long history of self-loathing LOL. So maybe intelligence is a factor? XD
I'm just saying koreans have increasingly adopted the western perspective and culture, often without much discretion, all of which leads to such sad, misguided opinions of beauty.
Do you think, for example, koreans in the chosun dynasty (200 years ago eg.) would have thought westerns were "hotter" on average?
On August 27 2011 04:49 MudkipSEA` wrote: I think I can empathize with these korean high schoolers. There are many parallels i find in Korea and Singapore, and I have a good korean friend that is studying with me in secondary (high school) right now. The high emphasize on tests and exams is staggering, creating a very prominent tuition culture in both societies. Well, tuition in our countries is like, going to a "private school/centre" after school to do more work because of the competitiveness in education. Its really crazy and demoralizing to know that one exam, can really determine your life.
I'm going to use Singapore as an example of a stereotypical highschooler in a modern eastern asian society. Our GSE A Level's is crazy competitive. The grading system is A-U with A-E as passes and S and U as a fail grade. To get into a local university, you'll need to get at least a BBBB and to get into a good course its AAAA. Its utter madness. Btw, its 4am here in SIngapore and I'm still cramming for my examination in 2 months.
It is no different from other modern eastern societies like Hongkong and Korea.
srsly if its 4am in singapore and you're supposed to prepare for an important exam in 2 months don't surf in teamliquid^^
On August 27 2011 04:32 Eppa! wrote: I always found it strange that plastic surgery is incredibly stigmatized while make up, designer fashion, hair dues etc. are generally excepted. It honestly not a big leap from make up to surgery. In the end you are simply making yourself beautiful.
Sweden is incredibly vain, yet it is without the surgery. I heard on the radio that bosses thought a women without make up were unprofessional and would not be hired. Double standards are always present. I would not be surprised if plastic surgery was mainstream in the western world in 20 years.
that's a little different but I guess somewhat similar. I mean, if a girl doesn't wear makeup that's equivalent to someone not dressing up appropriately for a job interview or if a guy looks really raggedy; messy hair and messy beard. In a job interview, it's good to look presentable. You are going to represent the company and things like that go hand in hand whereas surgery isn't a standard for representation. The person on the radio didn't say that he hires upon beauty. I guess he's saying that a girl with makeup on but is more ugly than a girl who didn't have makeup, is a better candidate.
The part about the stress of studying causing suicide............ that's so horrible. I hope it doesnt happen often because if it does this is an issue S. Korea should really address with the school system.
in Korea the hardest part of school is definitely getting out of high school because once you get into your graduate school your set, all you got to do is pass the exams to get into your program. Also, there is the "rule" of someting along the lines of if you sleep 4 hours then you will fail, implying that a Korean student must sleep 4 or less hours per day to study in order to keep up. This results in all of the "study groups" that go on late at night similar to the japanese study groups.
On August 27 2011 04:49 MudkipSEA` wrote: I think I can empathize with these korean high schoolers. There are many parallels i find in Korea and Singapore, and I have a good korean friend that is studying with me in secondary (high school) right now. The high emphasize on tests and exams is staggering, creating a very prominent tuition culture in both societies. Well, tuition in our countries is like, going to a "private school/centre" after school to do more work because of the competitiveness in education. Its really crazy and demoralizing to know that one exam, can really determine your life.
I'm going to use Singapore as an example of a stereotypical highschooler in a modern eastern asian society. Our GSE A Level's is crazy competitive. The grading system is A-U with A-E as passes and S and U as a fail grade. To get into a local university, you'll need to get at least a BBBB and to get into a good course its AAAA. Its utter madness. Btw, its 4am here in SIngapore and I'm still cramming for my examination in 2 months.
It is no different from other modern eastern societies like Hongkong and Korea.
srsly if its 4am in singapore and you're supposed to prepare for an important exam in 2 months don't surf in teamliquid^^
Haha! Yeah! That's one thing i need to stop doing. I guess I really need to focus. ><
On August 27 2011 04:54 sechkie wrote: in Korea the hardest part of school is definitely getting out of high school because once you get into your graduate school your set, all you got to do is pass the exams to get into your program. Also, there is the "rule" of someting along the lines of if you sleep 4 hours then you will fail, implying that a Korean student must sleep 4 or less hours per day to study in order to keep up. This results in all of the "study groups" that go on late at night similar to the japanese study groups.
Its really true. And if might I add , late at night may imply to some as 11-12, but some go on to the early mornings. My friends ( in Singapore) stay up all night at 24 hour fast food outlets to study, and take the first bus home in the morning on the weekends. Sleep for maybe 2-3 hours and get going again.
On August 27 2011 04:32 Eppa! wrote: I always found it strange that plastic surgery is incredibly stigmatized while make up, designer fashion, hair dues etc. are generally excepted. It honestly not a big leap from make up to surgery. In the end you are simply making yourself beautiful.
Sweden is incredibly vain, yet it is without the surgery. I heard on the radio that bosses thought a women without make up were unprofessional and would not be hired. Double standards are always present. I would not be surprised if plastic surgery was mainstream in the western world in 20 years.
that's a little different but I guess somewhat similar. I mean, if a girl doesn't wear makeup that's equivalent to someone not dressing up appropriately for a job interview or if a guy looks really raggedy; messy hair and messy beard. In a job interview, it's good to look presentable. You are going to represent the company and things like that go hand in hand whereas surgery isn't a standard for representation. The person on the radio didn't say that he hires upon beauty. I guess he's saying that a girl with makeup on but is more ugly than a girl who didn't have makeup, is a better candidate.
But having double eyelids makes you look more presentable. Beauty is a core part in looking presentable. The only reason why make up is required to look presentable (rather than just coming hair and putting on some skin moister.) is that society says that WOMEN have to use make up to look professional.
Where is the distinction between make up and eyelid surgery? It mostly that we see it differently. One is currently required one is currently not. This could easily change.
On August 27 2011 05:03 marttorn wrote: Now, consider the fact that Polt/Optimus goes to one of the most competitive schools in korea (the "harvard of korea" as tasteless put it)
And he's still a top code S player. Sick.
Is college the same in SK as in uK? really hard to get in, then its really easy unless you have scholarship?
How are the circumstances for college in korea then btw? If it's as hard as highschool, I think I might have to reconsider my plan to study 1/2-1 year inn SK in 2-3 years :D
gained much more respect for Polt/optimus btw if he really attends the korean harvard and still has formidable college succes.
On August 27 2011 04:12 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: Surprising that GPA doesn't seem to take any role in college admissions. In the US, it's pretty much the most important thing even more so than standardized exams (I've talked to admissions boards and I know from friends who went to really easy ass public schools). I have a friend who got 2400 on the SAT, took over 10 AP exams (mostly 5s, couple 4's), was involved in several clubs and sports, but only had 4.4 GPA because it was the highest possible at his crazy private school (he only ever got A's), etc.. He was not accepted into any Ivy Leagues or Stanford to which he applied.
So it really surprises me that in Korea, one exam means everything. I think that's kind of dumb... one bad day, and you're screwed.
Ivy's in the U.S. are a crapshoot. Amazing GPA, AP's, SAT's are just requirements to apply. You friend probably did not show diversity, leadership, or great extra curriculars.
lol yea. my mom had a terrible GPA in highschool because she was going to major in art but changed her junior year and actually started to study. she still got into Korea University (one of the "ivies" in korea) with a scholarship because she did really good on the test.
Lol he did have diversity, leadership, extra currics, and achievements in all of those on top of that. Seriously. This guy was ideal. Only thing lacking was the GPA because it was not possible to go higher at that school, and had it been higher, he could have done half as much with other things, and gotten into Harvard. Meanwhile, people who have nothing to their name but a ridiculously high GPA and a pretty good (doesn't even need to be super exceptional) standardized test score can get into those places quite fine, and I've known a few (and myself, lol, although I had quite a bit more in the way of other credentials). I got into some really good univs., but I got little in the way of fin. aid. for those ones, and paying ~$60,000 a year is not very nice.
Btw, the best way to get into Ivy's is to come from a family with money and/or some sort of influence. lol
My point is: If you have a ridiculously high GPA, you're set. Also, if you're from a large ethnic minority in the US, you're seriously set (affirmative action takes wayyy too much action). That's why I've told some parents not to send their kids to private schools, and if they insist, not sending them to an insane one that will hamper their GPA drastically compared to other schools.
There is a colossal difference in the eyes of admissions boards between a student who worked insanely hard like extremely determined Korean students and got a 4.4 at an insane school like my friend's or mine, or someone who worked less at your average public school (even in high-class metropolitan California or Massachusetts where standards are a lot higher than in say, Missouri) and got 4.8+. They like the second case a lot more. And you know what? Those admissions boards don't know and don't care that case 1 slaved far more and is a lot smarter than case 2, and as long as case 2 didn't completely bomb the SAT compared to 1, they'll easily pick them.
I spent quite a bit of time talking to folks who work in this sort of thing because I like finding out how things work. GPA is colossal despite some advisors say you it's like the 3rd or 4th most important thing (at least some of the ones I've come across. Other advisors and admissions boards I've talked to being straightforward and blunt with me have said quite different).
Unfortunately, Korea is one of the most superficial and vain countries in the world.
Is this really true though? Pretty much every teen magazine in the US is dedicated to fashion and beauty. I don't see any evidence that Korea is more vain than other Asian countries or the US or Europe.
If you watch the clip you can see that plastic surgery is practically ingrained into the modern society, as it is not seen as something unusual and/or controversial.
Like I said earlier, we're talking about a very simple, non-intrusive and safe procedure. Braces are ingrained in modern US society, as is makeup and fashion. You'll see far more people in the US go to tanning salons. Hell, so many people in the US get their wisdom teeth removed for essentially aesthetic reasons, and that is far more intrusive than this. I don't see any particular reason to conclude that popularity of double-eyelid surgery means a country is more vain than countries that value other methods of beauty.
It's not that these things are popular that is the problem. The problem is that society views these things as "requirements" to be beautiful. If you don't have have white fair skin, double eye-lids, and a small face, you will never be called beautiful in korea.
Every single society has their own standards of beauty; it's called evolution. And in particular, rich countries spend a lot of money and time on meeting such standards, because they can. I see no reason to criticize Korean society simply because their standard is different than ours.
No one here is arguing that double eye-lid surgery is wrong, or Korea thinking having a white-face is beautiful is wrong. I am not disgusted by the Korean standards of beauty, but the fact that everyone is pressured to conform to those standards. In America, no one pressures me to tan and tell me my white skin is ugly. No one tells me that I need braces or be forever ugly with crooked teeth. In Korea, it's nothing surprising if someone flat out says you're ugly because of the size of your head or the color tone of your skin. That is just wrong imo.
Isn't this more about the openness of beauty rather than the problem with the ideals?
On August 27 2011 04:12 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: Surprising that GPA doesn't seem to take any role in college admissions. In the US, it's pretty much the most important thing even more so than standardized exams (I've talked to admissions boards and I know from friends who went to really easy ass public schools). I have a friend who got 2400 on the SAT, took over 10 AP exams (mostly 5s, couple 4's), was involved in several clubs and sports, but only had 4.4 GPA because it was the highest possible at his crazy private school (he only ever got A's), etc.. He was not accepted into any Ivy Leagues or Stanford to which he applied.
So it really surprises me that in Korea, one exam means everything. I think that's kind of dumb... one bad day, and you're screwed.
Ivy's in the U.S. are a crapshoot. Amazing GPA, AP's, SAT's are just requirements to apply. You friend probably did not show diversity, leadership, or great extra curriculars.
lol yea. my mom had a terrible GPA in highschool because she was going to major in art but changed her junior year and actually started to study. she still got into Korea University (one of the "ivies" in korea) with a scholarship because she did really good on the test.
Lol he did have diversity, leadership, extra currics, and achievements in all of those on top of that. Seriously. This guy was ideal. Only thing lacking was the GPA because it was not possible to go higher at that school, and had it been higher, he could have done half as much with other things, and gotten into Harvard. Meanwhile, people who have nothing to their name but a ridiculously high GPA and a pretty good (doesn't even need to be super exceptional) standardized test score can get into those places quite fine, and I've known a few (and myself, lol, although I had quite a bit more in the way of other credentials). I got into some really good univs., but I got little in the way of fin. aid. for those ones, and paying ~$60,000 a year is not very nice.
Btw, the best way to get into Ivy's is to come from a family with money and/or some sort of influence. lol
My point is: If you have a ridiculously high GPA, you're set. Also, if you're from a large ethnic minority in the US, you're seriously set (affirmative action takes wayyy too much action). That's why I've told some parents not to send their kids to private schools, and if they insist, not sending them to an insane one that will hamper their GPA drastically compared to other schools.
There is a colossal difference in the eyes of admissions boards between a student who worked insanely hard like extremely determined Korean students and got a 4.4 at an insane school like my friend's or mine, or someone who worked less at your average public school (even in high-class metropolitan California or Massachusetts where standards are a lot higher than in say, Missouri) and got 4.8+. They like the second case a lot more. And you know what? Those admissions boards don't know and don't care that case 1 slaved far more and are a lot smarter than case 2.
I spent quite a bit of time talking to folks who work in this sort of thing because I like finding out how things work. GPA is colossal.
I agree with your perspective on affirmative action but not much else. It is true there might be some injustice based on which high school you came from (more competitive, so lower GPAs) but, in general, I don't that GPA is all-deciding factor. Not even close to it. As long as you are above a certain level (let's say above 4.2 weighted), GPA becomes a non-factor and other things come to play. For instance, my GPA was lower than many people in my HS but I ended up in better private universities than they did.
I also can't agree you need to come from a well-to-do family. For the elite private universities ( think harvard princeton yale stanford), if your family makes less than 100k a year, the tuition is free of charge. Of course, a household with higher income will tend to have parents who will push their children more etc. but I don't think that was your point.
Just finished watching the "teaser" ( nice that it was that long) lol and the Big Bang part in the end was exactly how i expected the korean fangirls to be^^
The girl who told the story about the friend, who tried to commit suicide 5 times was pretty cute, don't understand why she would ever consider PS, on the other hand she had double eyelids so she might have alrdy had her PSs.
And I just read a bit about that filmmaker girl from the usa, pretty baller although I haven't watched her other movie there it must have been quite good if she got to meet Obama^^ and a full scholarship for a korean exchange year is a sign that she's not "random". Somehow she's familiar to me though.... am I mistaken or is she the one cellar ones skyped with while streaming?
On August 27 2011 04:12 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: Surprising that GPA doesn't seem to take any role in college admissions. In the US, it's pretty much the most important thing even more so than standardized exams (I've talked to admissions boards and I know from friends who went to really easy ass public schools). I have a friend who got 2400 on the SAT, took over 10 AP exams (mostly 5s, couple 4's), was involved in several clubs and sports, but only had 4.4 GPA because it was the highest possible at his crazy private school (he only ever got A's), etc.. He was not accepted into any Ivy Leagues or Stanford to which he applied.
So it really surprises me that in Korea, one exam means everything. I think that's kind of dumb... one bad day, and you're screwed.
Ivy's in the U.S. are a crapshoot. Amazing GPA, AP's, SAT's are just requirements to apply. You friend probably did not show diversity, leadership, or great extra curriculars.
lol yea. my mom had a terrible GPA in highschool because she was going to major in art but changed her junior year and actually started to study. she still got into Korea University (one of the "ivies" in korea) with a scholarship because she did really good on the test.
Lol he did have diversity, leadership, extra currics, and achievements in all of those on top of that. Seriously. This guy was ideal. Only thing lacking was the GPA because it was not possible to go higher at that school, and had it been higher, he could have done half as much with other things, and gotten into Harvard. Meanwhile, people who have nothing to their name but a ridiculously high GPA and a pretty good (doesn't even need to be super exceptional) standardized test score can get into those places quite fine, and I've known a few (and myself, lol, although I had quite a bit more in the way of other credentials). I got into some really good univs., but I got little in the way of fin. aid. for those ones, and paying ~$60,000 a year is not very nice.
Btw, the best way to get into Ivy's is to come from a family with money and/or some sort of influence. lol
My point is: If you have a ridiculously high GPA, you're set. Also, if you're from a large ethnic minority in the US, you're seriously set (affirmative action takes wayyy too much action). That's why I've told some parents not to send their kids to private schools, and if they insist, not sending them to an insane one that will hamper their GPA drastically compared to other schools.
There is a colossal difference in the eyes of admissions boards between a student who worked insanely hard like extremely determined Korean students and got a 4.4 at an insane school like my friend's or mine, or someone who worked less at your average public school (even in high-class metropolitan California or Massachusetts where standards are a lot higher than in say, Missouri) and got 4.8+. They like the second case a lot more. And you know what? Those admissions boards don't know and don't care that case 1 slaved far more and is a lot smarter than case 2, and as long as case 2 didn't completely bomb the SAT compared to 1, they'll easily pick them.
I spent quite a bit of time talking to folks who work in this sort of thing because I like finding out how things work. GPA is colossal despite some advisors say you it's like the 3rd or 4th most important thing (at least some of the ones I've come across. Other advisors and admissions boards I've talked to being straightforward and blunt with me have said quite different).
I'm not sure what happened to your friend, but college admissions would have noticed that he got the highest GPA he could possibly get at his high school. At my public high school 4.0 was the highest GPA you could get, and there was no shortage of ivy leaguers.
A very high GPA with middling SAT is not a guarantee of success. In fact, college admissions probably weigh the SAT/ACT slightly more than your GPA, because the latter is not standardized. In any case, 4.4 is still higher than the average GPA of accepted applicants for all the Ivy Leagues.
On August 27 2011 05:04 AsnSensation wrote: How are the circumstances for college in korea then btw? If it's as hard as highschool, I think I might have to reconsider my plan to study 1/2-1 year inn SK in 2-3 years :D
gained much more respect for Polt/optimus btw if he really attends the korean harvard and still has formidable college succes.
From what I know, compared to high school, college is easier (backwards of the US) but that's because from here on out you are in the program and basically just have to get through it. Of course you want to do well to be able to get better positions, but the hardest part has been to get into the top flight programs.
If really everyone studies like that shouldn't Korea be a country full of lawyers and doctores? Also makes me wonder if their average education and their elite scientists really are that far above that of the in comparison lazy western cultures.
That's the problem. The top is so damn competitive that you need to study all day and night to have a chance to be up there.
It stems mostly from the extreme poverty Korea got out of. Before it was seriously third world, but through hard work, it was able to pull to be a leading power in the East. However, it also spawned the notion that you have to "seem" like you are successful, hence all the plastic surgery, etc etc. To be honest, there needs to be more successful people who don't fit the "pretty" category in order for the society to change. I'm glad Park Ji Sung has small eyes, tan skin, bad acne, cuz even all through that, people respect him.
To give you an idea how must beauty is ingrained in the society, when you apply to jobs, you need to attach a photo of yourself. Employers will literally reject candidates if they aren't beautiful, regardless of their qualifications. That's fucked up.
First, I'm sure alot of uglies are posting in this thread. Judging from a few known "lookers", I find comments like this hilarious.
On August 27 2011 05:07 Chill wrote: I would do anything in my power to raise my children outside of Asia.
Since, someone would have to want to procreate with you first.
I remember looking at the statistics on plastic surgery, and SK was the highest, but compared with their general population, it was still pretty low. It's not like 1/2 the population has had it done, so don't worry, plenty of uglies still around.
On August 27 2011 04:22 StorkHwaiting wrote: Tbh, a lot of Korean women, and Asians in general, are naturally not pretty. Many Asians agree Asian people are on average uglier than Westerners. I think it's sad, but true. Asians make up for it by aging a lot better and generally being much healthier/slender than their Western counterparts.
That is pretty subjective. I just think that is western-centric perspective; of course, it is also true many koreans (unfortunately) have this perspective. This isn't the case for me and I would take an "average" Asian girl over a "hot" caucasian girl any day, given everything else is equal.
I don't see how it's a western-centric perspective. Most Westerners think Asians are exotic and hot, even ones that are ugly (Like Lucy Liu). To me, it's a bigger tell when Asians themselves agree Asians are not good looking. It's rare for a culture to be self-hating.
Then again, highest avg IQ's are Jewish people then Asians. Both these populations have a long history of self-loathing LOL. So maybe intelligence is a factor? XD
I'm just saying koreans have increasingly adopted the western perspective and culture, often without much discretion, all of which leads to such sad, misguided opinions of beauty.
Do you think, for example, koreans in the chosun dynasty (200 years ago eg.) would have thought westerns were "hotter" on average?
I remember talking to a few college Asian girls (Chinese, I believe), and they told me that after coming to America and seeing everyday Americans, they thought white people were actually pretty ugly. This was different from their perception, which was mainly influenced by media.
On August 27 2011 04:54 Absolutionn wrote: The part about the stress of studying causing suicide............ that's so horrible. I hope it doesnt happen often because if it does this is an issue S. Korea should really address with the school system.
Also, people are missing out on a major aspect of their culture. Think about the short amount of time they have risen from poverty to becoming a first world economy and nation. It's nothing short of incredible.
When evaluation a situation, it's critical to consider that any perceived negatives are actually positives, due to a possibility of an "opportunity cost" type of effect. Now, I'm not saying that necessarily is the case in terms of the stresses and pitfalls of their high school system, but you have to consider it.
By the way, I know a few Harvard grads that have done some work in the public school systems of America. We have plenty of faults.
Lastly, what is the problem with stressing beauty in a culture? I wish more Americans would consider being fat, an absolutely disgusting trait that teens should be openly talking to each other to avoid, since it is. It's so unhealthy and life threatening, and look at the obesity statistics. The lack of sexual appeal from a piece of lard is a pretty clear sign from Mother Nature.
On August 27 2011 05:33 Spicy Pepper wrote: First, I'm sure alot of uglies are posting in this thread. Judging from a few known "lookers", I find comments like this hilarious.
On August 27 2011 05:33 Spicy Pepper wrote: First, I'm sure alot of uglies are posting in this thread. Judging from a few known "lookers", I find comments like this hilarious.
On August 27 2011 05:07 Chill wrote: I would do anything in my power to raise my children outside of Asia.
Since, someone would have to want to procreate with you first.
On August 27 2011 05:33 Spicy Pepper wrote: First, I'm sure alot of uglies are posting in this thread. Judging from a few known "lookers", I find comments like this hilarious.
On August 27 2011 05:07 Chill wrote: I would do anything in my power to raise my children outside of Asia.
Since, someone would have to want to procreate with you first.
On August 27 2011 05:04 AsnSensation wrote: How are the circumstances for college in korea then btw? If it's as hard as highschool, I think I might have to reconsider my plan to study 1/2-1 year inn SK in 2-3 years :D
gained much more respect for Polt/optimus btw if he really attends the korean harvard and still has formidable college succes.
On August 27 2011 05:03 marttorn wrote: Now, consider the fact that Polt/Optimus goes to one of the most competitive schools in korea (the "harvard of korea" as tasteless put it)
And he's still a top code S player. Sick.
College in korea is a joke. My dad went to the "harvard" of korea (seoul university) and my mom went to the #2 school (korea university) and both told me it was infinitely easier than high school. My cousins who are in college all told me all they do is party, hang out with friends, and have tons of free time. Sure there is some work, but it's child's play to those who survived korean high school.
The impressive thing about a progamer who goes to a top university is that he managed to put hours practicing a game while studying like a madman to get into a top korean university. but then again, the kids who spend 16hours studying are usually the ones who arent as "naturally gifted" and try to keep up with those at the top. My friends in my dorm have told me there are several kids who are just straight up gifted and only need to study a couple hours a day to get into their university of choice.
On August 27 2011 04:12 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: Surprising that GPA doesn't seem to take any role in college admissions. In the US, it's pretty much the most important thing even more so than standardized exams (I've talked to admissions boards and I know from friends who went to really easy ass public schools). I have a friend who got 2400 on the SAT, took over 10 AP exams (mostly 5s, couple 4's), was involved in several clubs and sports, but only had 4.4 GPA because it was the highest possible at his crazy private school (he only ever got A's), etc.. He was not accepted into any Ivy Leagues or Stanford to which he applied.
So it really surprises me that in Korea, one exam means everything. I think that's kind of dumb... one bad day, and you're screwed.
Ivy's in the U.S. are a crapshoot. Amazing GPA, AP's, SAT's are just requirements to apply. You friend probably did not show diversity, leadership, or great extra curriculars.
lol yea. my mom had a terrible GPA in highschool because she was going to major in art but changed her junior year and actually started to study. she still got into Korea University (one of the "ivies" in korea) with a scholarship because she did really good on the test.
Lol he did have diversity, leadership, extra currics, and achievements in all of those on top of that. Seriously. This guy was ideal. Only thing lacking was the GPA because it was not possible to go higher at that school, and had it been higher, he could have done half as much with other things, and gotten into Harvard. Meanwhile, people who have nothing to their name but a ridiculously high GPA and a pretty good (doesn't even need to be super exceptional) standardized test score can get into those places quite fine, and I've known a few (and myself, lol, although I had quite a bit more in the way of other credentials). I got into some really good univs., but I got little in the way of fin. aid. for those ones, and paying ~$60,000 a year is not very nice.
Btw, the best way to get into Ivy's is to come from a family with money and/or some sort of influence. lol
My point is: If you have a ridiculously high GPA, you're set. Also, if you're from a large ethnic minority in the US, you're seriously set (affirmative action takes wayyy too much action). That's why I've told some parents not to send their kids to private schools, and if they insist, not sending them to an insane one that will hamper their GPA drastically compared to other schools.
There is a colossal difference in the eyes of admissions boards between a student who worked insanely hard like extremely determined Korean students and got a 4.4 at an insane school like my friend's or mine, or someone who worked less at your average public school (even in high-class metropolitan California or Massachusetts where standards are a lot higher than in say, Missouri) and got 4.8+. They like the second case a lot more. And you know what? Those admissions boards don't know and don't care that case 1 slaved far more and is a lot smarter than case 2, and as long as case 2 didn't completely bomb the SAT compared to 1, they'll easily pick them.
I spent quite a bit of time talking to folks who work in this sort of thing because I like finding out how things work. GPA is colossal despite some advisors say you it's like the 3rd or 4th most important thing (at least some of the ones I've come across. Other advisors and admissions boards I've talked to being straightforward and blunt with me have said quite different).
How many ivy's did he apply to? if he applied to ivy's other than HYPSM also then he's just EXTREMELY unlucky. If so, I'm extremely surprised. If he did have diversity/leadership like you said he should've been accepted to at least 1 Ivy. Are you sure you're not mistaking diversity/leadership? I'm not talking like 4 years bowling, 4 years Key club, 4 years math olympiad, 4 years model UN. That has no focus on anything and colleges look for people with a focus. Either way, Ivy's are truly a crapshoot and your friend might be one of the unluckiest college applicants I have ever heard of.
Since when is a 4.4 low? (weighted right? Cause UW maximum is 4) 4.4 is not too low for ivy's... that's pretty much average for an ivy candidate.
Also afaik, colleges take into consideration the maximum GPA of your school and how GPA is relative to a school. Several admissions people have told me this and after 2 years of reading CollegeConfidential I've only read that college people take all this into consideration.
My school sucks hard academically and our top kids still get into good colleges because they did the best they can with what they had.
He was probably asian. Also, 4 is the maxium UW GPA. They don't care about weighted.
If really everyone studies like that shouldn't Korea be a country full of lawyers and doctores? Also makes me wonder if their average education and their elite scientists really are that far above that of the in comparison lazy western cultures.
Sure, you can say Koreans are smart because of their study habits. It's obvious since you study 16 hours a day and sleep less than 6 hours. You essentially become a slave but instead of working, you study.
however, tons and tons of students are not able to continue their studies because of lack of enrollment positions available in universities. Demand far outweighs the supply of university in Korea... you have no idea... Not to mention the tuition fee is disproportional to the minimum wage or average salary of korean house hold.
You may doubt me but I have friends in Korea who make $5 bucks an hour and that's pretty decent for a student. Kind of ridiculous when these students try to pay tuition which costs over 8k a year (including dorm, meal, books)
By the way, keep in mind that this film is meant to make matters worse than they actually appear to be. i.e - Girls falling asleep like a hobo passed out after having a booz But in reality, korean schooling system is backward. They study hard for 4 years to get into university, and once your in, there is no competition other than to graduate. Graduating is very easy in Korea, its getting in that's very hard since you compete with the whole country not just your town like many schools in North America.
Someone above whose parents graduated from korean #1 and #2 university said it right. Once your in university, studying becomes #2 priority. the #1 priority is getting along with people and forming strong relationship with your friends. There are groups called "dong ah ri" which are basically clubs based on your interest. There are "TONS" of them in universities. You can join any and they do so many things together. They play sports, travel, party and MT which is like camping.
Btw, the best way to get into Ivy's is to come from a family with money and/or some sort of influence. lol
I went to an Ivy, and this idea that you need family money or influence to get in, is exaggerated.
I'm thinking of people in my dorm of 400-500. One famous director's daughter, a few important people's kids, but the vast majority were just regular people.
I haven't watched the clip yet but from reading the OP I gotta ask wtf?!?! They take a 9h exam, is this for real? I can barely keep any focus and concentration in a 3hour test, but they gotta do a shit test for 9hours? Is that meant to torture them or see what they know? And also, they study for 16hours a day for how long? This shit is crazy the longest I can study is about 5-6 hours and that's not more that 5-6 days in a row. These people sound pretty crazy to me.
Btw, the best way to get into Ivy's is to come from a family with money and/or some sort of influence. lol
I went to an Ivy, and this idea that you need family money or influence to get in, is exaggerated.
I'm thinking of people in my dorm of 400-500. One famous director's daughter, a few important people's kids, but the vast majority were just regular people.
Well at schools like HYP, there are more admissions based on connections. But in general admissions, are accommodating, although it's tough for middle-class families to afford that kind of tuition. There's financial aid and all, but some families, like mine, get absolutely screwed over.
On August 27 2011 04:12 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: Surprising that GPA doesn't seem to take any role in college admissions. In the US, it's pretty much the most important thing even more so than standardized exams (I've talked to admissions boards and I know from friends who went to really easy ass public schools). I have a friend who got 2400 on the SAT, took over 10 AP exams (mostly 5s, couple 4's), was involved in several clubs and sports, but only had 4.4 GPA because it was the highest possible at his crazy private school (he only ever got A's), etc.. He was not accepted into any Ivy Leagues or Stanford to which he applied.
So it really surprises me that in Korea, one exam means everything. I think that's kind of dumb... one bad day, and you're screwed.
Ivy's in the U.S. are a crapshoot. Amazing GPA, AP's, SAT's are just requirements to apply. You friend probably did not show diversity, leadership, or great extra curriculars.
lol yea. my mom had a terrible GPA in highschool because she was going to major in art but changed her junior year and actually started to study. she still got into Korea University (one of the "ivies" in korea) with a scholarship because she did really good on the test.
Lol he did have diversity, leadership, extra currics, and achievements in all of those on top of that. Seriously. This guy was ideal. Only thing lacking was the GPA because it was not possible to go higher at that school, and had it been higher, he could have done half as much with other things, and gotten into Harvard. Meanwhile, people who have nothing to their name but a ridiculously high GPA and a pretty good (doesn't even need to be super exceptional) standardized test score can get into those places quite fine, and I've known a few (and myself, lol, although I had quite a bit more in the way of other credentials). I got into some really good univs., but I got little in the way of fin. aid. for those ones, and paying ~$60,000 a year is not very nice.
Btw, the best way to get into Ivy's is to come from a family with money and/or some sort of influence. lol
My point is: If you have a ridiculously high GPA, you're set. Also, if you're from a large ethnic minority in the US, you're seriously set (affirmative action takes wayyy too much action). That's why I've told some parents not to send their kids to private schools, and if they insist, not sending them to an insane one that will hamper their GPA drastically compared to other schools.
There is a colossal difference in the eyes of admissions boards between a student who worked insanely hard like extremely determined Korean students and got a 4.4 at an insane school like my friend's or mine, or someone who worked less at your average public school (even in high-class metropolitan California or Massachusetts where standards are a lot higher than in say, Missouri) and got 4.8+. They like the second case a lot more. And you know what? Those admissions boards don't know and don't care that case 1 slaved far more and are a lot smarter than case 2.
I spent quite a bit of time talking to folks who work in this sort of thing because I like finding out how things work. GPA is colossal.
I agree with your perspective on affirmative action but not much else. It is true there might be some injustice based on which high school you came from (more competitive, so lower GPAs) but, in general, I don't that GPA is all-deciding factor. Not even close to it. As long as you are above a certain level (let's say above 4.2 weighted), GPA becomes a non-factor and other things come to play. For instance, my GPA was lower than many people in my HS but I ended up in better private universities than they did.
I also can't agree you need to come from a well-to-do family. For the elite private universities ( think harvard princeton yale stanford), if your family makes less than 100k a year, the tuition is free of charge. Of course, a household with higher income will tend to have parents who will push their children more etc. but I don't think that was your point.
I wasn't talking about financial aid to accepted students. I was talking about that being from a wealthy / influential family is a colossal factor with universities, especially higher private ones. I was more referring to that households with high income (like wealthy class) and/or influence are just chosen almost instantly (a great example is political families). An example I know personally is a girl who was like < 3.0 GPA and shit SAT scores and nothing else and got into USC because her parents are rather wealthy.
GPA is a huge issue, unless admissions boards are lying to me and some of my friends are flukes. Above 4.2, you're in the range where you have at least half a shot at most univs. But if you're 4.6+, you're guaranteed pretty much anywhere, and if you're even higher, you're golden. Are you a minority? If so, then what you say is no surprise. If not, then you were quite fortunate, unless your friends with higher GPA literally did nothing other than school work, and had bad test scores compared to you, and no extra currics.
Affirmative action is pretty big. I know a guy who had very little in the way of extra currics., about the same test cores, and less GPA than me, and got into Stanford. I don't want to sound conspiratorial, but I think him being east Asian had a bit to do with that (btw, the brilliant dude I've been mentioning in my last two posts is white).
How many ivy's did he apply to? if he applied to ivy's other than HYPSM also then he's just EXTREMELY unlucky. If so, I'm extremely surprised. If he did have diversity/leadership like you said he should've been accepted to at least 1 Ivy. Are you sure you're not mistaking diversity/leadership? I'm not talking like 4 years bowling, 4 years Key club, 4 years math olympiad, 4 years model UN. That has no focus on anything and colleges look for people with a focus. Either way, Ivy's are truly a crapshoot and your friend might be one of the unluckiest college applicants I have ever heard of.
Since when is a 4.4 low? (weighted right? Cause UW maximum is 4) 4.4 is not too low for ivy's... that's pretty much average for an ivy candidate.
Also afaik, colleges take into consideration the maximum GPA of your school and how GPA is relative to a school. Several admissions people have told me this and after 2 years of reading CollegeConfidential I've only read that college people take all this into consideration.
My school sucks hard academically and our top kids still get into good colleges because they did the best they can with what they had.
I don't know which ones he applied to, but I do know he applied to Cornell (generally the easiest) for sure.
Yeah, he was pretty unlucky. I don't get what you mean by not having a focus having hurt him. Nearly all of the things he did were focused on academics (math club, academic competition league, etc.), with a couple things outside like theater and sports. I can't see how that would hurt him, or anyone. I would think admission boards would jizz themselves upon seeing that. If anything, what hurt him is the admission board seeing how distinguished he was everywhere, but thought he was slacking academically since he only had a ~4.4 GPA. They don't know and don't care if you went to an insane school. They seem to assume everyone goes to schools of very similar degree.
If admissions people just consider max. GPA of your school and GPA relative to the school, I would be a prime candidate for Harvard very easily. Still, for them to do that would be really stupid. How do they know the school has low standards and no one does much work and isn't very competitive? How do they know if, rather, it's highly competitive (like mine and that of my friend) but since few honors and AP classes are offered, GPAs can't get as high? It's an extremely foolish way to do things (I say that and it would actually benefit me), and if some colleges do it that way, that is quite shocking. The seemingly far more common way of just looking at things across the board is better... just go to a public school, or a private school that allows you to get about the same GPA for a similar amount of work (and doesn't have low caps where less than 4.5 is the max. you can get), and you will be fine if you are particularly ambitious.
If you think he's unlucky, I have a friend at univ. that had about a 4.7 GPA, was involved in math/science things all 4 years in high school, has some related rewards and whatnot, killed the SAT and ACT, and was denied from Caltech and MIT and a couple Ivy's. Wowzers O_o
On August 27 2011 05:33 Spicy Pepper wrote: First, I'm sure alot of uglies are posting in this thread. Judging from a few known "lookers", I find comments like this hilarious.
On August 27 2011 05:07 Chill wrote: I would do anything in my power to raise my children outside of Asia.
Since, someone would have to want to procreate with you first.
I remember looking at the statistics on plastic surgery, and SK was the highest, but compared with their general population, it was still pretty low. It's not like 1/2 the population has had it done, so don't worry, plenty of uglies still around.
On August 27 2011 04:50 phosphorylation wrote:
On August 27 2011 04:43 StorkHwaiting wrote:
On August 27 2011 04:39 phosphorylation wrote:
On August 27 2011 04:22 StorkHwaiting wrote: Tbh, a lot of Korean women, and Asians in general, are naturally not pretty. Many Asians agree Asian people are on average uglier than Westerners. I think it's sad, but true. Asians make up for it by aging a lot better and generally being much healthier/slender than their Western counterparts.
That is pretty subjective. I just think that is western-centric perspective; of course, it is also true many koreans (unfortunately) have this perspective. This isn't the case for me and I would take an "average" Asian girl over a "hot" caucasian girl any day, given everything else is equal.
I don't see how it's a western-centric perspective. Most Westerners think Asians are exotic and hot, even ones that are ugly (Like Lucy Liu). To me, it's a bigger tell when Asians themselves agree Asians are not good looking. It's rare for a culture to be self-hating.
Then again, highest avg IQ's are Jewish people then Asians. Both these populations have a long history of self-loathing LOL. So maybe intelligence is a factor? XD
I'm just saying koreans have increasingly adopted the western perspective and culture, often without much discretion, all of which leads to such sad, misguided opinions of beauty.
Do you think, for example, koreans in the chosun dynasty (200 years ago eg.) would have thought westerns were "hotter" on average?
I remember talking to a few college Asian girls (Chinese, I believe), and they told me that after coming to America and seeing everyday Americans, they thought white people were actually pretty ugly. This was different from their perception, which was mainly influenced by media.
On August 27 2011 04:54 Absolutionn wrote: The part about the stress of studying causing suicide............ that's so horrible. I hope it doesnt happen often because if it does this is an issue S. Korea should really address with the school system.
Also, people are missing out on a major aspect of their culture. Think about the short amount of time they have risen from poverty to becoming a first world economy and nation. It's nothing short of incredible.
When evaluation a situation, it's critical to consider that any perceived negatives are actually positives, due to a possibility of an "opportunity cost" type of effect. Now, I'm not saying that necessarily is the case in terms of the stresses and pitfalls of their high school system, but you have to consider it.
By the way, I know a few Harvard grads that have done some work in the public school systems of America. We have plenty of faults.
Lastly, what is the problem with stressing beauty in a culture? I wish more Americans would consider being fat, an absolutely disgusting trait that teens should be openly talking to each other to avoid, since it is. It's so unhealthy and life threatening, and look at the obesity statistics. The lack of sexual appeal from a piece of lard is a pretty clear sign from Mother Nature.
I think plastic surgery percent for females hovers around 50%.
My Korean friends (who are male) explained to me quite simply that "so many ugly girls in korea but so many hot girls too. in america, not alot of ugly girls but not alot of hot girls"
They really have to consult NaDa on his thoughts about beauty in Korea. His body is above average.
On a more serious note though, the whole suicide part was very disturbing indeed... Though to some extent, I understand why those people would commit suicide. They were (presumably) raised with their parents having very very high expectations, and they were taught from a young age that school is EVERYTHING. So if they fail out in school, it's "over". If they dissapoint their parents, it's "over".
On August 27 2011 05:07 Chill wrote: I would do anything in my power to raise my children outside of Asia.
This. Crazy Koreans. Has no one yet mentioned about the strict rules of Korean schools? I quess here is some student who did not pay attention in the class.
On August 27 2011 05:51 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: Affirmative action is pretty big. I know a guy who had very little in the way of extra currics., about the same test cores, and less GPA than me, and got into Stanford. I don't want to sound conspiratorial, but I think him being east Asian had a bit to do with that (btw, the brilliant dude I've been mentioning in my last two posts is white).
I think you're friend was just unlucky and your east Asian friend got lucky. Affirmative action in elite US schools works against East Asians, not for.
Btw, the best way to get into Ivy's is to come from a family with money and/or some sort of influence. lol
I went to an Ivy, and this idea that you need family money or influence to get in, is exaggerated.
I'm thinking of people in my dorm of 400-500. One famous director's daughter, a few important people's kids, but the vast majority were just regular people.
Well at schools like HYP, there are more admissions based on connections. But in general admissions, are accommodating, although it's tough for middle-class families to afford that kind of tuition. There's financial aid and all, but some families, like mine, get absolutely screwed over.
The first college girlfriend paid $2-3k per semester (I would guess her parents made $50k/year at best in NY), my roommate paid $5k, I paid $10k. Ivy schools are very active about making sure tuition is affordable, and some have been taking measure with the end-goal of covering all tuition. It's need-based cost.
I never heard of a single story of someone who had problems with tuition. Now maybe they were just quiet about it, but it would've cost me the same to go to UMass, BU, etc.
On August 27 2011 05:07 Chill wrote: I would do anything in my power to raise my children outside of Asia.
This. Crazy Koreans. Has no one yet mentioned about the strict rules of Korean schools? I quess here is some student who did not pay attention in the class.
On August 27 2011 05:07 Chill wrote: I would do anything in my power to raise my children outside of Asia.
This. Crazy Koreans. Has no one yet mentioned about the strict rules of Korean schools? I quess here is some student who did not pay attention in the class.
On August 27 2011 05:51 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: Affirmative action is pretty big. I know a guy who had very little in the way of extra currics., about the same test cores, and less GPA than me, and got into Stanford. I don't want to sound conspiratorial, but I think him being east Asian had a bit to do with that (btw, the brilliant dude I've been mentioning in my last two posts is white).
I think you're friend was just unlucky and your east Asian friend got lucky. Affirmative action in elite US schools works against East Asians, not for.
This is spot on. UC Berkeley is the prime example. They stopped affirmative action, and with blind admissions, it's basically become an Asian campus.
On August 27 2011 05:51 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: Affirmative action is pretty big. I know a guy who had very little in the way of extra currics., about the same test cores, and less GPA than me, and got into Stanford. I don't want to sound conspiratorial, but I think him being east Asian had a bit to do with that (btw, the brilliant dude I've been mentioning in my last two posts is white).
I think you're friend was just unlucky and your east Asian friend got lucky. Affirmative action in elite US schools works against East Asians, not for.
Um yea. this guy is pretty off-base in many things. East Asians get gypped pretty hard for admissions to elite private collegs.
That is pretty bad....feel sorry for those who could be living if it weren't for this type of education system. Then again, they do have "great test scores." My idea of a bad trade-off.
On August 27 2011 05:33 Spicy Pepper wrote: First, I'm sure alot of uglies are posting in this thread. Judging from a few known "lookers", I find comments like this hilarious.
On August 27 2011 05:07 Chill wrote: I would do anything in my power to raise my children outside of Asia.
Since, someone would have to want to procreate with you first.
I remember looking at the statistics on plastic surgery, and SK was the highest, but compared with their general population, it was still pretty low. It's not like 1/2 the population has had it done, so don't worry, plenty of uglies still around.
On August 27 2011 04:50 phosphorylation wrote:
On August 27 2011 04:43 StorkHwaiting wrote:
On August 27 2011 04:39 phosphorylation wrote:
On August 27 2011 04:22 StorkHwaiting wrote: Tbh, a lot of Korean women, and Asians in general, are naturally not pretty. Many Asians agree Asian people are on average uglier than Westerners. I think it's sad, but true. Asians make up for it by aging a lot better and generally being much healthier/slender than their Western counterparts.
That is pretty subjective. I just think that is western-centric perspective; of course, it is also true many koreans (unfortunately) have this perspective. This isn't the case for me and I would take an "average" Asian girl over a "hot" caucasian girl any day, given everything else is equal.
I don't see how it's a western-centric perspective. Most Westerners think Asians are exotic and hot, even ones that are ugly (Like Lucy Liu). To me, it's a bigger tell when Asians themselves agree Asians are not good looking. It's rare for a culture to be self-hating.
Then again, highest avg IQ's are Jewish people then Asians. Both these populations have a long history of self-loathing LOL. So maybe intelligence is a factor? XD
I'm just saying koreans have increasingly adopted the western perspective and culture, often without much discretion, all of which leads to such sad, misguided opinions of beauty.
Do you think, for example, koreans in the chosun dynasty (200 years ago eg.) would have thought westerns were "hotter" on average?
I remember talking to a few college Asian girls (Chinese, I believe), and they told me that after coming to America and seeing everyday Americans, they thought white people were actually pretty ugly. This was different from their perception, which was mainly influenced by media.
On August 27 2011 04:54 Absolutionn wrote: The part about the stress of studying causing suicide............ that's so horrible. I hope it doesnt happen often because if it does this is an issue S. Korea should really address with the school system.
Also, people are missing out on a major aspect of their culture. Think about the short amount of time they have risen from poverty to becoming a first world economy and nation. It's nothing short of incredible.
When evaluation a situation, it's critical to consider that any perceived negatives are actually positives, due to a possibility of an "opportunity cost" type of effect. Now, I'm not saying that necessarily is the case in terms of the stresses and pitfalls of their high school system, but you have to consider it.
By the way, I know a few Harvard grads that have done some work in the public school systems of America. We have plenty of faults.
Lastly, what is the problem with stressing beauty in a culture? I wish more Americans would consider being fat, an absolutely disgusting trait that teens should be openly talking to each other to avoid, since it is. It's so unhealthy and life threatening, and look at the obesity statistics. The lack of sexual appeal from a piece of lard is a pretty clear sign from Mother Nature.
I think plastic surgery percent for females hovers around 50%.
My Korean friends (who are male) explained to me quite simply that "so many ugly girls in korea but so many hot girls too. in america, not alot of ugly girls but not alot of hot girls"
A little more clarification on numbers (read I'm better at picking results from the 1st page of Google, tighten up).
"According to ARA, plastic surgery has become so common that an estimated 30 percent of Korean women aged 20 to 50, or some 2.4 million women, had surgical or nonsurgical cosmetic procedures last year, with many having more than one procedure."
"That compares with 11.7 million cosmetic procedures performed last year in the United States, according to the American Society for Aesthetic Plastic Surgery, meaning that the number of procedures in America is 4.9 times the number in South Korea, though the United States population is more than six times larger." Source
There wouldn't be a market large enough to support all those surgeries in America if people didn't feel pressured to look a certain way. Maybe Westerners should look to our own a little more carefully before we criticize.
LOL I just saw the entire preview, and I gotta say that it had almost nothing in common with what the OP described. The entire thing was all about what Korean girls think is a pretty woman, and why they decide to go through a plastic surgery. From what I can see there's an easy solution to their problem. #1 Make it so that high-schools aren't girls/boys only, and instead mix them, so that they can interact easier, and probably get an actual idea of what the opposing sex finds attractive in them. #2 Get laid ffs. The mentality "I have bracers, so that means 3 years forever alone" is just plainly bad. #3 kind of similar to #1 get them to do some more out of class events, and camps so that they can interact more with other people. #4 Don't be like your parents when you grow up, unless you want your kids to also commit suicide. Problems solved P.S. Don't wait till you finish high-school to get drunk for the first time, you don't know what you're missing out.
Hmm... I'm not sure how to feel about this side-topic of how difficult it is to get into an Ivy League college.
I had a friend in high school with basically 0 extra curricular activities, an excellent but not mind-blowing GPA/average (from Canada), a normal public school, pretty strong SAT, and Oriental get into ivies without much difficulty... there definitely is a REALLY big luck factor imo.
On August 27 2011 03:32 The_LiNk wrote: Hey since we're on the topic of physical beauty in Korea, what are "nice collarbones" for Koreans? I've never considered collarbones when evaluating someone's beauty/handsomeness. Can someone explain this?
I read on reddit they call Hannah Choi the interviewer/translator for GSL "Marauder Woman" because of her wider than average shoulders. Source It seems in Korea shit like that really matters. This doc has me really interested. I hope more Koreans will chime in here in the mean time about why this is such a popular attitude in Korea
Huh.
What??
Isnt it classically like.. wide hips = beauty? Where is this wide shoulder preference from? Strange thing to seek about women..
Interesting.. though only about a quater of the teaser/trailer was about korean education, while the rest was about how they perceived beauty. tbh, a number of the korean students shown looked pretty/cute the way they were in my eyes, all of them were also very well groomed.
As for not being able to get into the top universities (which I guess is one of the main reason for high suicide rates?), I believe more and more koreans are taking advantage of the Won and going abroad to complete their post-sec education as an alternative. During my time in Malaysia, there were dozens and dozens of korean students doing 2+1 (or similar) program where they would complete their final year and get their degree from an Australian university (Queensland is a popular choice) Also here in Calgary, many korean students here as well, with the plan to complete their degree here, then go back to korea.
On August 27 2011 03:32 The_LiNk wrote: Hey since we're on the topic of physical beauty in Korea, what are "nice collarbones" for Koreans? I've never considered collarbones when evaluating someone's beauty/handsomeness. Can someone explain this?
I read on reddit they call Hannah Choi the interviewer/translator for GSL "Marauder Woman" because of her wider than average shoulders. Source It seems in Korea shit like that really matters. This doc has me really interested. I hope more Koreans will chime in here in the mean time about why this is such a popular attitude in Korea
Yes. This is something I always found strange.
Western Conversation: Do you think she's pretty? She has a cute face but her legs a little bit thick.
Korean Conversation: Do you think she's pretty. No. Her nose is a little slanted and a little bit big. Her left eye is bigger than her right. Her cheeks are too round. Her neck is so short. etc. etc.
My point is that they really focus on details like the one you've highlighted with that picture.
Korean high school is where insane and copious amounts of studying occur. Korean universities are MUCH MUCH more lax. Life is much better after high school is done. Whenever I go back to Korea, there's always a niece or nephew I can't get the chance to talk to because he or she is in high school. The college kids take me to all the clubs and show me around Seoul.
american schools are easy to get into, but hard to get out.
korean schools are hard to get into but easy to get out.
something really needs to be changed if the harder working asians are studying.. 16x longer than an american, but americans are the ones getting into college >.>
Ha it's one of the reasons I'm glad that my parents moved to Canada. I have lots of relatives in China who are going through this "ultimate exam". IMO the asian education system need to be reformed in the near future in a way. People will start to notice that the ones who get really good grades (i.e.> really good university) aren't always the smartest/most capable guys in a workforce...plus they often have superiority complexes and lack emotional maturity.
It's quite unfair to base a person's entire future onto their ability to cram books.
That is so different. Their culture can create a lot of amazing minds, but at what cost, and .. everyone else who doesn't get to that super high standard or can't handle stress..
A lot of you guys are making opinions about this from a western perspective, which honestly isn't a good method of looking at topics about Asia. An ultra competitive education system is what happens when you have a tiny country, a ton of people, a collective interest in being the best, and a cultural attitude of hard work. There's a reason why things like Korean shipbuilding or Korean electronics are the best in the world. I don't necessarily agree with their system but this kind of culture is very difficult to avoid in a place like korea.
On August 27 2011 11:53 RavenLoud wrote: Ha it's one of the reasons I'm glad that my parents moved to Canada. I have lots of relatives in China who are going through this "ultimate exam". IMO the asian education system need to be reformed in the near future in a way. People will start to notice that the ones who get really good grades (i.e.> really good university) aren't always the smartest/most capable guys in a workforce...plus they often have superiority complexes and lack emotional maturity.
It's quite unfair to base a person's entire future onto their ability to cram books.
Just my 2 cents.
the people who got into really good universities worked hard for it, why should "smartest/most capable guys" get preference over people who work there asses off to get where they are? i like how they put emphasis on hard work.
On August 27 2011 11:53 RavenLoud wrote: Ha it's one of the reasons I'm glad that my parents moved to Canada. I have lots of relatives in China who are going through this "ultimate exam". IMO the asian education system need to be reformed in the near future in a way. People will start to notice that the ones who get really good grades (i.e.> really good university) aren't always the smartest/most capable guys in a workforce...plus they often have superiority complexes and lack emotional maturity.
It's quite unfair to base a person's entire future onto their ability to cram books.
Just my 2 cents.
the people who got into really good universities worked hard for it, why should "smartest/most capable guys" get preference over people who work there asses off to get where they are? i like how they put emphasis on hard work.
On August 27 2011 02:23 PepperoniPiZZa wrote: Sang kuh pul is really creepy. Are korean schoolgirls really that obsessed with looking like western girls?
I think they're all beautiful :3
These are traditional East Asian beauty standards . . it has nothing to do with white people.
Koreans don't like European eyes, as most Europeans have deepset eyes and prominent brows.
They want to look like the East Asians who naturally have double eyelids (about a quarter in Korea and over half in some parts of China)
QFT
And as for Hannah ya I'd smash that. Fit girls are sexy nothing wrong with some muscle on a girl.
It would greatly be appreciated if the movie had a chart or something that outlined how their progresion of learning happens. Like pre algelbra -> algelbra- > and so on. ! !
I wonder if parents are labeled shameful for driving their kids to suicide. Also that part where the girls laughed while discussing surgery was really weird for me, o.o.
As someone who lived in Korea for 10 years, let me straighten the facts out a bit.
On August 27 2011 06:28 pred470r wrote: LOL I just saw the entire preview, and I gotta say that it had almost nothing in common with what the OP described. The entire thing was all about what Korean girls think is a pretty woman, and why they decide to go through a plastic surgery. From what I can see there's an easy solution to their problem. #1 Make it so that high-schools aren't girls/boys only, and instead mix them, so that they can interact easier, and probably get an actual idea of what the opposing sex finds attractive in them. #2 Get laid ffs. The mentality "I have bracers, so that means 3 years forever alone" is just plainly bad. #3 kind of similar to #1 get them to do some more out of class events, and camps so that they can interact more with other people. #4 Don't be like your parents when you grow up, unless you want your kids to also commit suicide. Problems solved P.S. Don't wait till you finish high-school to get drunk for the first time, you don't know what you're missing out.
I know you are trying to give your sincere opinions, but they are very much out of context. It's fairly obvious you are not familiar with Korean education scene: It is much, much more competitive there. High schools, and even junior high schools get classified into 'university level school' and 2-year/1-year program college level schools. Once the students get put into their respective schools, chances are they will go down that road. So that competition begins literally in elementary school.
They have that girls only / boys only schools in order to raise academic efficiency. Such logic may seem irrational in most countries, but in Korea, since they have such high level of competition, it does make sense to have such systems.
#4. Parents make their children go through such rigorous schedule from elementary years just because they know how tough the competition is - and they want their child to do better than them - which basically comes down to harsher life for their kids.
On August 27 2011 11:44 deadlywaffles wrote: american schools are easy to get into, but hard to get out.
korean schools are hard to get into but easy to get out.
something really needs to be changed if the harder working asians are studying.. 16x longer than an american, but americans are the ones getting into college >.>
I just wanna put your statement into proper perspective. Yes that is a popular saying, but make note that it is a relative term when they say it's easier to get out (ie. universities are easier). When they say universities are easier compared to Korean high schools that puts the bar right at or at least close to the western universities.
I am wondering how the filmmaker managed to "attend Korean high school". She has already graduated from high school i the states as she said and I assume she has some university prospects if she wishes with all of her accomplishes and what not so there would seem to be no academic value in doing so. Is she simply auditing or does she get stuff out of attending, etc? Pure curiosity.
On August 27 2011 11:44 deadlywaffles wrote: american schools are easy to get into, but hard to get out.
korean schools are hard to get into but easy to get out.
something really needs to be changed if the harder working asians are studying.. 16x longer than an american, but americans are the ones getting into college >.>
I just wanna put your statement into proper perspective. Yes that is a popular saying, but make note that it is a relative term when they say it's easier to get out (ie. universities are easier). When they say universities are easier compared to Korean high schools that puts the bar right at or at least close to the western universities.
In terms of difficulty, like you said, western university can be compared to a korean/asian high school. But in the end, you can't get a secure job with a high school degree from any country. Companies will be looking for that college degree
On August 27 2011 11:44 deadlywaffles wrote: american schools are easy to get into, but hard to get out.
korean schools are hard to get into but easy to get out.
something really needs to be changed if the harder working asians are studying.. 16x longer than an american, but americans are the ones getting into college >.>
I just wanna put your statement into proper perspective. Yes that is a popular saying, but make note that it is a relative term when they say it's easier to get out (ie. universities are easier). When they say universities are easier compared to Korean high schools that puts the bar right at or at least close to the western universities.
In terms of difficulty, like you said, western university can be compared to a korean/asian high school. But in the end, you can't get a secure job with a high school degree from any country. Companies will be looking for that college degree
No that's not what I said. I was comparing the difficulty of Korean universities to that of Western universities.
In that light, and speaking in general term, Korean high schools definitely pressure their students to put in more effort and work, compared to that of Western universities.
Well if we take the documentary at face value (as in, those interviewed are representative of Korean culture), it definitely seems there's a big issue with self-confidence in general.
On August 27 2011 15:09 Craton wrote: Well if we take the documentary at face value (as in, those interviewed are representative of Korean culture), it definitely seems there's a big issue with self-confidence in general.
Its not just korean culture, but east asian culture in general. Being raised the "asian" way, asian kids are taught that no matter how high their grades are, or whatever they achieve that they will always be inadequate. Parents use any evidence of a single child outperforming you as the person you should have been. So the expectations of students is huge, not just in Korea, but in China, Taiwan and Japan. Although I can say for a certain that at least Taiwanese people do not seem so superficial about beauty having lived there.
The biggest thing that surprised me when I came here to teach is the culture of vanity. Everyone is impeccably dressed and ironed in high-end fashion, six/seven year old kids who wear Ralph Lauren and Beanpole. Girls/women will tell you lies just to look better ('I'm studying this....', when they're definitely not). Everyone drones on about things being good for health while the streets are jammed with scooters doing Pizza Hut/McDonalds home delivery (but they won't be seen buying it). Weekend culture for young people is centered around glitzy malls selling high-end brands and most stores above the second floor are comestic/skin/surgery orientated. When I went to the Jisan Valley rock festival I saw some of the alternative culture, but generally everyone was still the same.
I don't teach high school but the kids generally go to school 9:00-7:00 or 9-9:30 for the middle schoolers, when you include after-school academies. Despite the dark tone of the trailer, everyone is pretty bright and happy apart from the middle schoolers who are so so so tired when you teach them at 8:30 at night, and they are bright when they leave. Back home in the UK our kids are setting the country on fire because the lives of young people and schooling sucks, but we have thriving alternative communities and the obsession with looks is nowhere near as bad. I dunno. I love Korea but it has a dark side.
If we had more of a Korean mentality in America, maybe our women wouldn't be so fat and slutty. Just sayin'. It's not much of a wonder why the divorce rate here is over 50% nowadays.
On August 27 2011 19:56 NeVeR wrote: If we had more of a Korean mentality in America, maybe our women wouldn't be so fat and slutty. Just sayin'. It's not much of a wonder why the divorce rate here is over 50% nowadays.
So let me get this straight.. The Women are hotter, students actually all study and are smart, AND the ones who aren't smart kill themselves?
I don't really see why this is a bad thing, I wish it was here in the U.S. as well. It would improve us greatly and the only price seems to be having failures kill themselves.
Unfortunately, Korea is one of the most superficial and vain countries in the world.
Is this really true though? Pretty much every teen magazine in the US is dedicated to fashion and beauty. I don't see any evidence that Korea is more vain than other Asian countries or the US or Europe.
It is, sadly. One of the main differences between US culture and Korean culture is that American teenage youth tend to be more independent, probably because of the differences in parenting ideologies. This means they're less likely to become obsessed with superficial values (unlike Korean teenage girls, who are easily sucked into it because they are used to people telling them what to do). This in turn causes a "snowball" effect in Korean culture where beauty becomes abnormally prized.
On August 27 2011 19:19 KT s0ng wrote: The biggest thing that surprised me when I came here to teach is the culture of vanity. Everyone is impeccably dressed and ironed in high-end fashion, six/seven year old kids who wear Ralph Lauren and Beanpole. Girls/women will tell you lies just to look better ('I'm studying this....', when they're definitely not). Everyone drones on about things being good for health while the streets are jammed with scooters doing Pizza Hut/McDonalds home delivery (but they won't be seen buying it). Weekend culture for young people is centered around glitzy malls selling high-end brands and most stores above the second floor are comestic/skin/surgery orientated. When I went to the Jisan Valley rock festival I saw some of the alternative culture, but generally everyone was still the same.
I don't teach high school but the kids generally go to school 9:00-7:00 or 9-9:30 for the middle schoolers, when you include after-school academies. Despite the dark tone of the trailer, everyone is pretty bright and happy apart from the middle schoolers who are so so so tired when you teach them at 8:30 at night, and they are bright when they leave. Back home in the UK our kids are setting the country on fire because the lives of young people and schooling sucks, but we have thriving alternative communities and the obsession with looks is nowhere near as bad. I dunno. I love Korea but it has a dark side.
Your generalization of korean society is simply wrong.
On August 27 2011 19:19 KT s0ng wrote: The biggest thing that surprised me when I came here to teach is the culture of vanity. Everyone is impeccably dressed and ironed in high-end fashion, six/seven year old kids who wear Ralph Lauren and Beanpole. Girls/women will tell you lies just to look better ('I'm studying this....', when they're definitely not). Everyone drones on about things being good for health while the streets are jammed with scooters doing Pizza Hut/McDonalds home delivery (but they won't be seen buying it). Weekend culture for young people is centered around glitzy malls selling high-end brands and most stores above the second floor are comestic/skin/surgery orientated. When I went to the Jisan Valley rock festival I saw some of the alternative culture, but generally everyone was still the same.
I don't teach high school but the kids generally go to school 9:00-7:00 or 9-9:30 for the middle schoolers, when you include after-school academies. Despite the dark tone of the trailer, everyone is pretty bright and happy apart from the middle schoolers who are so so so tired when you teach them at 8:30 at night, and they are bright when they leave. Back home in the UK our kids are setting the country on fire because the lives of young people and schooling sucks, but we have thriving alternative communities and the obsession with looks is nowhere near as bad. I dunno. I love Korea but it has a dark side.
Your generalization of korean society is simply wrong.
On August 27 2011 22:34 Valestrum wrote: So let me get this straight.. The Women are hotter, students actually all study and are smart, AND the ones who aren't smart kill themselves?
I don't really see why this is a bad thing, I wish it was here in the U.S. as well. It would improve us greatly and the only price seems to be having failures kill themselves.
You can't be serious. Young people ending their lives because they can't live up to the expectations of their environment is one of the msot horrible things I've ever heard of. I'm all for competition, hard work + Show Spoiler +
and hot highschool girls
, but there is a line somewhere.
What kind of youth is spent drudging along dimly lit floors and rote learning for 16 hours/day? I'm really sad for Korean highschoolers. T_T
On August 27 2011 19:19 KT s0ng wrote: The biggest thing that surprised me when I came here to teach is the culture of vanity. Everyone is impeccably dressed and ironed in high-end fashion, six/seven year old kids who wear Ralph Lauren and Beanpole. Girls/women will tell you lies just to look better ('I'm studying this....', when they're definitely not). Everyone drones on about things being good for health while the streets are jammed with scooters doing Pizza Hut/McDonalds home delivery (but they won't be seen buying it). Weekend culture for young people is centered around glitzy malls selling high-end brands and most stores above the second floor are comestic/skin/surgery orientated. When I went to the Jisan Valley rock festival I saw some of the alternative culture, but generally everyone was still the same.
I don't teach high school but the kids generally go to school 9:00-7:00 or 9-9:30 for the middle schoolers, when you include after-school academies. Despite the dark tone of the trailer, everyone is pretty bright and happy apart from the middle schoolers who are so so so tired when you teach them at 8:30 at night, and they are bright when they leave. Back home in the UK our kids are setting the country on fire because the lives of young people and schooling sucks, but we have thriving alternative communities and the obsession with looks is nowhere near as bad. I dunno. I love Korea but it has a dark side.
Your generalization of korean society is simply wrong.
Compelling argument, friend.
Because having to explain that phrases like everyone is or everyone does are ignorant isn't necessary for intelligent people like you.
Ah, jesus. Of course I'm aware that I am part of a microcosm of young city-dwelling people and students. It is obvious that I am talking about my experience in which everything I say is true. From now on I will qualify and requalify and rerequalify everything I say. If you like, everytime you see the word 'everyone', add 'in my experience'. Saves me time.
Do not say a statement! Include words like pretty maybe sometimes often "IT'S JUST MY OPINION" "IMO". Jeez.
p.s. If you're being defensive, which I sense you are, no need to be. I love Korea and I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. It's OK to talk about your feelings, whether good or bad.
On August 27 2011 21:43 Copymizer wrote: Korean beauty obsession, double eye lids. Holy fuck didn't know such a small thing did such a big difference to the koreans. wow.
It's every Asian culture dude. For the past three thousand years, the Chinese were obsessed with women who had pale, white skin, and double lidded eyes. And for the past three thousand years (ending in around the 1900's), China's chief export has been cultural hegemony over its neighbors.
In all seriousness, why is it such a big surprise? Certain genetic mutations have always been seen as more attractive, why do you think so many Caucasian females dye their hair blonde? It's the same exact thing.
High school girls in korea are holding themselves to an unfair standard set by popstars and celebrities? The part of the documentary about the massive amounts of studying and pressure involved in a korean student's life is interesting but the bit about young girls aspiring to be their favorite celebrity or "look like someone else" as the video described hardly seems unique to Korea.
I guess maybe it's more emphasized by the fact that plastic surgery is more widely accepted among the youth in Korea. I'm pretty sure if you ask most girls in highschool in America or anywhere else really if they have features that they would want to change they could make a list for you. The difference here is that plastic surgery is such a common thing that the students actually go through with it?
On August 27 2011 19:56 NeVeR wrote: If we had more of a Korean mentality in America, maybe our women wouldn't be so fat and slutty. Just sayin'. It's not much of a wonder why the divorce rate here is over 50% nowadays.
On August 27 2011 19:56 NeVeR wrote: If we had more of a Korean mentality in America, maybe our women wouldn't be so fat and slutty. Just sayin'. It's not much of a wonder why the divorce rate here is over 50% nowadays.
Divorce rate isn't that much different in SK. It's 3rd behind the U.S. and U.K. And the girls in Korea can be equally as slutty...
Hrm, source? I looked at a few lists of divorce statistics by country and SK wasn't listed anywhere. Also girls in any country can be slutty of course, but I was referring to the norm.
On August 27 2011 19:56 NeVeR wrote: If we had more of a Korean mentality in America, maybe our women wouldn't be so fat and slutty. Just sayin'. It's not much of a wonder why the divorce rate here is over 50% nowadays.
Divorce rate isn't that much different in SK. It's 3rd behind the U.S. and U.K. And the girls in Korea can be equally as slutty...
Hrm, source? I looked at a few lists of divorce statistics by country and SK wasn't listed anywhere. Also girls in any country can be slutty of course, but I was referring to the norm.
yeah i agree, since their uniforms are forced and they're too busy studying i don't see how highschool girls are equally slutty there. especially since they shun relationships...
On August 27 2011 22:34 Valestrum wrote: So let me get this straight.. The Women are hotter, students actually all study and are smart, AND the ones who aren't smart kill themselves?
I don't really see why this is a bad thing, I wish it was here in the U.S. as well. It would improve us greatly and the only price seems to be having failures kill themselves.
ONLY price is having failures kill themselves? Every life lost is a tragedy. And those lost in vain, because of the combination of stress and teenage emotions, is even more tragic. While I accept that everyone has a different tolerance for the Darwinian elimination of human beings, condoning a system where people kill themselves over academics and vanity is just inhumane.
It was a bit shocking to watch the girl talk about her senior and her peer committing suicide. She showed almost no sorrow or sympathy when talking about them, as though suicide was such a trivial issue. With such a mindset, it'll be difficult to reduce the rate of suicides amongst Korean youths. I sure hope the situation is not as bad as I made it out to be.
On August 28 2011 00:39 Vinnesta wrote: It was a bit shocking to watch the girl talk about her senior and her peer committing suicide. She showed almost no sorrow or sympathy when talking about them, as though suicide was such a trivial issue. With such a mindset, it'll be difficult to reduce the rate of suicides amongst Korean youths. I sure hope the situation is not as bad as I made it out to be.
this is what stood out to me as well although they could have not really known each other that well. i mean everyone i have on facebook or something i'd consider a friend if i was talking about them.
I'm actually interested in watching this documentary, i might even pledge to see it if it isn't too costly. But yeah, I knew of the students who committed suicide and the obsession with beauty, but seeing and hearing these things first-hand from Korean students is a much different experience. The way they talked about surgery as a common thing seems so strange to someone like me.
This is horrible, but I am sure it must be at least a bit exagerated. I don't think a lot of people study 16 hours a day, that is almost impossible. If you study that much you would have finished high school in like a semester. And koreans aren't that much better than students from other countries.
On August 27 2011 22:34 Valestrum wrote: So let me get this straight.. The Women are hotter, students actually all study and are smart, AND the ones who aren't smart kill themselves?
I don't really see why this is a bad thing, I wish it was here in the U.S. as well. It would improve us greatly and the only price seems to be having failures kill themselves.
You can't be serious. Young people ending their lives because they can't live up to the expectations of their environment is one of the msot horrible things I've ever heard of. I'm all for competition, hard work + Show Spoiler +
and hot highschool girls
, but there is a line somewhere.
What kind of youth is spent drudging along dimly lit floors and rote learning for 16 hours/day? I'm really sad for Korean highschoolers. T_T
It's not wrong. Human civilization has taken away natural selection. Therefore we must use societal selection to improve the biological fitness of our race!!
I think all the topics she brings up are valid, but I think she really is just is missing the point .... Korea is not America. just because double eyelids seem so desired and seems odd to her we have the our standards of beauty in the usa also that may seem weird in Korea. this sounds harsh but it seems like she wants to be Korean and is now just trying to pick everything she sees wrong ... i dont think i will watch this .... i call this another case of Korea is awesome all i know is kpop and then she was surprised it wasn't like a kpop video.
On August 28 2011 01:32 jax1492 wrote: I think all the topics she brings up are valid, but I think she really is just is missing the point .... Korea is not America. just because double eyelids seem so desired and seems odd to her we have the our standards of beauty in the usa also that may seem weird in Korea. this sounds harsh but it seems like she wants to be Korean and is now just trying to pick everything she sees wrong ... i dont think i will watch this .... i call this another case of Korea is awesome all i know is kpop and then she was surprised it wasn't like a kpop video.
p.s. i like kpop
Yea, like the OP said, she seems to be pushing Western ideals into a completely different culture. I and many of my friends who went to highschool in Korea don't really see the studying as an issue. The atmosphere of pressure motivates you to work harder than you thought you could and it also clearly separates the ones who REALLY want to work hard for a good university and the ones who might have the ability but slack off.
It's the national work ethic that brought Korea to where it is now after the depression/war/etc. At least that's the way we see it. Sure we complain, but really, who doesn't complain about highschool in any nation.
On August 28 2011 01:32 jax1492 wrote: I think all the topics she brings up are valid, but I think she really is just is missing the point .... Korea is not America. just because double eyelids seem so desired and seems odd to her we have the our standards of beauty in the usa also that may seem weird in Korea. this sounds harsh but it seems like she wants to be Korean and is now just trying to pick everything she sees wrong ... i dont think i will watch this .... i call this another case of Korea is awesome all i know is kpop and then she was surprised it wasn't like a kpop video.
p.s. i like kpop
Yea, like the OP said, she seems to be pushing Western ideals into a completely different culture. I and many of my friends who went to highschool in Korea don't really see the studying as an issue. The atmosphere of pressure motivates you to work harder than you thought you could and it also clearly separates the ones who REALLY want to work hard for a good university and the ones who might have the ability but slack off.
It's the national work ethic that brought Korea to where it is now after the depression/war/etc. At least that's the way we see it. Sure we complain, but really, who doesn't complain about highschool in any nation.
I don't think I've ever heard anybody complain about the pressure of high school at my old school.
Sure there were people who complained about stupid shit but never about anything quite as serious like this.
Regardless, I think the Korean work ethic is amazing and a lot of countries would benefit amazingly if they stressed school as much as Koreans do.
On August 28 2011 01:08 Elroi wrote: This is horrible, but I am sure it must be at least a bit exagerated. I don't think a lot of people study 16 hours a day, that is almost impossible. If you study that much you would have finished high school in like a semester. And koreans aren't that much better than students from other countries.
How is this exaggerated? In this documentary it mentions that Korean High school lasts from morning till night, obviously the workload and curriculum is infinitely times harder
On August 28 2011 01:32 jax1492 wrote: I think all the topics she brings up are valid, but I think she really is just is missing the point .... Korea is not America. just because double eyelids seem so desired and seems odd to her we have the our standards of beauty in the usa also that may seem weird in Korea. this sounds harsh but it seems like she wants to be Korean and is now just trying to pick everything she sees wrong ... i dont think i will watch this .... i call this another case of Korea is awesome all i know is kpop and then she was surprised it wasn't like a kpop video.
p.s. i like kpop
Yea, like the OP said, she seems to be pushing Western ideals into a completely different culture. I and many of my friends who went to highschool in Korea don't really see the studying as an issue. The atmosphere of pressure motivates you to work harder than you thought you could and it also clearly separates the ones who REALLY want to work hard for a good university and the ones who might have the ability but slack off.
It's the national work ethic that brought Korea to where it is now after the depression/war/etc. At least that's the way we see it. Sure we complain, but really, who doesn't complain about highschool in any nation.
I don't think I've ever heard anybody complain about the pressure of high school at my old school.
Sure there were people who complained about stupid shit but never about anything quite as serious like this.
Regardless, I think the Korean work ethic is amazing and a lot of countries would benefit amazingly if they stressed school as much as Koreans do.
I meant it in like a "people always find things to complain about, even when they don't really have an issue with it" kind of way. Sorry, should have clarified that.
I mean, obviously Korea is a bit extreme but honestly, I prefer it over the "everyone did a great job! Test scores are private information! Class ranking isn't important at all! It's the personality/creativity/effort that counts, not the result!" kind of attitude my highschool in America had. What a joke. I don't think a single person in that school ever tried 100%
On August 28 2011 01:32 jax1492 wrote: I think all the topics she brings up are valid, but I think she really is just is missing the point .... Korea is not America. just because double eyelids seem so desired and seems odd to her we have the our standards of beauty in the usa also that may seem weird in Korea. this sounds harsh but it seems like she wants to be Korean and is now just trying to pick everything she sees wrong ... i dont think i will watch this .... i call this another case of Korea is awesome all i know is kpop and then she was surprised it wasn't like a kpop video.
p.s. i like kpop
Yea, like the OP said, she seems to be pushing Western ideals into a completely different culture. I and many of my friends who went to highschool in Korea don't really see the studying as an issue. The atmosphere of pressure motivates you to work harder than you thought you could and it also clearly separates the ones who REALLY want to work hard for a good university and the ones who might have the ability but slack off.
It's the national work ethic that brought Korea to where it is now after the depression/war/etc. At least that's the way we see it. Sure we complain, but really, who doesn't complain about highschool in any nation.
I don't think I've ever heard anybody complain about the pressure of high school at my old school.
Sure there were people who complained about stupid shit but never about anything quite as serious like this.
Regardless, I think the Korean work ethic is amazing and a lot of countries would benefit amazingly if they stressed school as much as Koreans do.
I meant it in like a "people always find things to complain about, even when they don't really have an issue with it" kind of way. Sorry, should have clarified that.
I mean, obviously Korea is a bit extreme but honestly, I prefer it over the "everyone did a great job! Test scores are private information! Class ranking isn't important at all! It's the personality/creativity/effort that counts, not the result!" kind of attitude my highschool in America had. What a joke. I don't think a single person in that school ever tried 100%
Ah gotcha. :p
I feel the same way. I can speak from experience that I was never pushed to do anything by anybody. Just coasting by on getting the best mark possible without actually having to study. In my entire class I think there was only one person who actually tried her hardest. I think she graduated with a 99.8% average, and of course she was Chinese. Most of my friends called her a nerd and shit but I really did respect her for being able to push herself to do her best.
On August 28 2011 03:18 biteMe wrote: if korean students study 16h per day how do they get so awesome at sc2?
they're studying starcraft 2 16h per day, obviously!
ok, jokes aside, that video confused me, depressed me, angered me, and made me said "i don't know....." all at the same time.
Very stressful indeed, but it's the people who are promoting it that have the issues, not the ones who are taking the advice. I say this because ones who are giving advice, are giving the wrong advice.
On August 28 2011 01:08 Elroi wrote: This is horrible, but I am sure it must be at least a bit exagerated. I don't think a lot of people study 16 hours a day, that is almost impossible. If you study that much you would have finished high school in like a semester. And koreans aren't that much better than students from other countries.
i was at school at 7 o clock and went home at 23 o clock
many people i know went to cram school after that
of course thats not pure study time as most of the students just sleep during courses
regarding if you can finish high school in a semester.. well many students finished studying the high school stuff in middle school or in the first year of high school. but you cant graduate just because you studied you have to take the exam so yeah..
On August 28 2011 03:18 biteMe wrote: if korean students study 16h per day how do they get so awesome at sc2?
obviously not everyone does that
many people just give up and seek for other ways
there are exceptions of course like optimus prime who played wc3 as a progamer in highschool went to the best university in korea and then went back to progaming to win gsl super tournmanet
On August 28 2011 03:18 biteMe wrote: if korean students study 16h per day how do they get so awesome at sc2?
obviously not everyone does that
many people just give up and seek for other ways
there are exceptions of course like optimus prime who played wc3 as a progamer in highschool went to the best university in korea and then went back to progaming to win gsl super tournmanet
On August 28 2011 01:32 jax1492 wrote: I think all the topics she brings up are valid, but I think she really is just is missing the point .... Korea is not America. just because double eyelids seem so desired and seems odd to her we have the our standards of beauty in the usa also that may seem weird in Korea. this sounds harsh but it seems like she wants to be Korean and is now just trying to pick everything she sees wrong ... i dont think i will watch this .... i call this another case of Korea is awesome all i know is kpop and then she was surprised it wasn't like a kpop video.
p.s. i like kpop
A documentary's purpose is to investigate some aspect of reality, in this case Korean society. I saw no hatred against the culture or society at all.
A fair investigation is much more interesting and rewarding than just blaming everything on cultural differences, saying "they're just different" and moving on.
On August 28 2011 03:57 Quesadilla wrote: Everything I saw in this documentary is true. Really looking forward to the finished product so more people can understand.
I'd really like to hear more input from a SK citizen--I think the video raises some big, difficult topics, topics that the girl making/producing the video treats in a fairly ethnocentric way while failing to uncover the source of the problems.
On August 28 2011 03:57 Quesadilla wrote: Everything I saw in this documentary is true. Really looking forward to the finished product so more people can understand.
I'd really like to hear more input from a SK citizen--I think the video raises some big, difficult topics, topics that the girl making/producing the video treats in a fairly ethnocentric way while failing to uncover the source of the problems.
the source of the problem is the Korean culture itself. Korean society collectively believes in things like hard work, becoming rich, becoming smart, being good at math and english, getting a good job, etc. Combine this with a tremendous number of people competing for limited spaces in college and employment and this is what you get. This is a very difficult problem to fix - you can't force parents to stop pushing their kids, you can't force students from overworking themselves, you can't force college admissions to become easier (how will they pick students if they lower minimum grades when everyone applying is close to perfect score?). Honestly there isn't much anything that anyone can do.
On August 28 2011 04:16 zimz wrote: these girls are only in highschool but why do the vast majority need glasses?
Some people even use glasses just because it's a new trend, especially those "hipster glasses". I don't know whats the REAL case though. Might be what "Anch" said.
Awesome intro. I am definitely going to donate. Can't wait to see more. Everyone should check it out. Worth the 18 minutes it took to watch the introduction on what it is about.
Korea is a interesting culture, both North and South. I want to go one day in the near future. This will give me a glimpse into it. Thanks OP.
On August 28 2011 03:57 Quesadilla wrote: Everything I saw in this documentary is true. Really looking forward to the finished product so more people can understand.
I'd really like to hear more input from a SK citizen--I think the video raises some big, difficult topics, topics that the girl making/producing the video treats in a fairly ethnocentric way while failing to uncover the source of the problems.
the source of the problem is the Korean culture itself. Korean society collectively believes in things like hard work, becoming rich, becoming smart, being good at math and english, getting a good job, etc. Combine this with a tremendous number of people competing for limited spaces in college and employment and this is what you get. This is a very difficult problem to fix - you can't force parents to stop pushing their kids, you can't force students from overworking themselves, you can't force college admissions to become easier (how will they pick students if they lower minimum grades when everyone applying is close to perfect score?). Honestly there isn't much anything that anyone can do.
Did the import of American Culture after the Korean war have as much impact as it seems to? (especially re: beauty standards)?
oook...so how did Polt.prime get into the top university in korea and win a gsl champion and still be in code S?? man...this guy deserves some kind of genius award...
High school/junior high school in Korea is very different from Western ones in that over here in North America, you are encouraged to become an all-rounder. Ie. Playing for school team (athletics) while participating in clubs (hobby oriented, volunteering, etc) while keeping up a good grade. Of course, this is a very very ideal (IB league) type of student, but the point I'm stressing is all-rounder.
In Korea, the level of competition is so high (esp. academically) that it's either u pick academics or you don't. Ie. Someone taking sports very seriously in their junior high/high school years are gonna have to give up on their academics.
Hope that sheds some new light of understanding for some people.
One part of the video that resonated with me because I've made that same observation before is that the problem in Korea is that the definition of beauty is narrower than anywhere else.
Ask 10 American guys what his ideal type of girl looks like, you probably get 10 different answers. Even looking at our celebrities, there's very wide variety there: Keira Knightley looks different from Beyonce looks different from Scarlet Johansson, and yet they're all considered beautiful and girls of most body types have a celebrity to look up to. In my case, I'm somewhat apple-shaped -- I can look up to Reese Witherspoon, since she's an example of a naturally apple-shaped woman making the best of her looks and being successful with them.
Ask 10 Korean guys, and you probably only get one: white skin, small face, big eyes, skinny body, and long legs. And this standardization of beauty is really the core issue here, and what makes Korea's obsession with beauty more problematic than other countries'.
It probably can be traced back to Korea's belief in homogeneity. I think in their belief in the sameness of the Korean race, they keep forgetting that not every Korean can look the same. Just like any other people in the world, some Koreans are shorter and some are taller, some fatter and some thinner, some with smaller and some with bigger eyes.
The fact that the definition of beauty is so much smaller in Korea just results in much of the population being discriminated again where in other countries of the world, the comparatively wider and more diverse acceptance of beauty allows for more girls to accept themselves the way they are without having to think they must all look like Kim Tae Hee.
On August 28 2011 01:32 jax1492 wrote: I think all the topics she brings up are valid, but I think she really is just is missing the point .... Korea is not America. just because double eyelids seem so desired and seems odd to her we have the our standards of beauty in the usa also that may seem weird in Korea. this sounds harsh but it seems like she wants to be Korean and is now just trying to pick everything she sees wrong ... i dont think i will watch this .... i call this another case of Korea is awesome all i know is kpop and then she was surprised it wasn't like a kpop video.
p.s. i like kpop
Yea, like the OP said, she seems to be pushing Western ideals into a completely different culture. I and many of my friends who went to highschool in Korea don't really see the studying as an issue. The atmosphere of pressure motivates you to work harder than you thought you could and it also clearly separates the ones who REALLY want to work hard for a good university and the ones who might have the ability but slack off.
It's the national work ethic that brought Korea to where it is now after the depression/war/etc. At least that's the way we see it. Sure we complain, but really, who doesn't complain about highschool in any nation.
I don't think I've ever heard anybody complain about the pressure of high school at my old school.
Sure there were people who complained about stupid shit but never about anything quite as serious like this.
Regardless, I think the Korean work ethic is amazing and a lot of countries would benefit amazingly if they stressed school as much as Koreans do.
I meant it in like a "people always find things to complain about, even when they don't really have an issue with it" kind of way. Sorry, should have clarified that.
I mean, obviously Korea is a bit extreme but honestly, I prefer it over the "everyone did a great job! Test scores are private information! Class ranking isn't important at all! It's the personality/creativity/effort that counts, not the result!" kind of attitude my highschool in America had. What a joke. I don't think a single person in that school ever tried 100%
The good thing about the American highschool system is that they actually foster personality, creativity, and diversity. Students can focus on things they like and have interest in. This allows them to excel in their particular interests.
Korea doesn't really have extra curricular stuff for students and people who do sports or art pretty much ONLY do sports and art. Same with music and other stuff.
and then you have American students at #25 in Math, #12 in reading and #20 in Science in the world
I dont know, good extra curriculasr don't seems to matter if the school can't adequately provide the most important thing a school need to provide... education
and in SK study is not the only thing you can do, the kids doing kpop are also training 12+ hours per day since middle school, same for the sportsman and starcraft players
its more about deciding what you want and doing it with full commitment, whether its study, music, sports or starcraft rather than trying do everything at the same time ala USA highschool
On August 28 2011 01:32 jax1492 wrote: I think all the topics she brings up are valid, but I think she really is just is missing the point .... Korea is not America. just because double eyelids seem so desired and seems odd to her we have the our standards of beauty in the usa also that may seem weird in Korea. this sounds harsh but it seems like she wants to be Korean and is now just trying to pick everything she sees wrong ... i dont think i will watch this .... i call this another case of Korea is awesome all i know is kpop and then she was surprised it wasn't like a kpop video.
p.s. i like kpop
Yea, like the OP said, she seems to be pushing Western ideals into a completely different culture. I and many of my friends who went to highschool in Korea don't really see the studying as an issue. The atmosphere of pressure motivates you to work harder than you thought you could and it also clearly separates the ones who REALLY want to work hard for a good university and the ones who might have the ability but slack off.
It's the national work ethic that brought Korea to where it is now after the depression/war/etc. At least that's the way we see it. Sure we complain, but really, who doesn't complain about highschool in any nation.
I don't think I've ever heard anybody complain about the pressure of high school at my old school.
Sure there were people who complained about stupid shit but never about anything quite as serious like this.
Regardless, I think the Korean work ethic is amazing and a lot of countries would benefit amazingly if they stressed school as much as Koreans do.
I meant it in like a "people always find things to complain about, even when they don't really have an issue with it" kind of way. Sorry, should have clarified that.
I mean, obviously Korea is a bit extreme but honestly, I prefer it over the "everyone did a great job! Test scores are private information! Class ranking isn't important at all! It's the personality/creativity/effort that counts, not the result!" kind of attitude my highschool in America had. What a joke. I don't think a single person in that school ever tried 100%
The good thing about the American highschool system is that they actually foster personality, creativity, and diversity. Students can focus on things they like and have interest in. This allows them to excel in their particular interests.
Korea doesn't really have extra curricular stuff for students and people who do sports or art pretty much ONLY do sports and art. Same with music and other stuff.
and then you have American students at #25 in Math, #12 in reading and #20 in Science in the world
I dont know, good extra curriculasr don't seems to matter if the school can't adequately provide the most important thing a school need to provide... education
and in SK study is not the only thing you can do, the kids doing kpop are also training 12+ hours per day since middle school, same for the sportsman and starcraft players
its more about deciding what you want and doing it with full commitment, whether its study, music, sports or starcraft rather than trying do everything at the same time ala USA highschool
But then again, American highschool students are generally more well-rounded and flexible. What if you decide that being an artist is actually not your true dream? What if you were a soccer player and you sustained an injury that would never let you play soccer again? What if you weren't good enough to make it into a group as a kpop singer? Those students in korea barely have anything to fall back on and it's VERY hard if you switch.
Is this fact or opinion?
Can you provide evidence to support this claim that American students are more well-rounded as individuals?
Is this even a claim that is possible to prove?
I understand that a lot of people get angry when you say things like "This culture is just different... its not wrong or worse than yours, its just different" because people feel like you are just copping out of an argument, or taking the easiest stance.
But IMO this is just one of those things that is just a cultural stances on something, that is different from other ones. How can you say which is better or worse?
IMO there are scenarios in which either stance is more beneificial.
Would you rather have a doctor/lawyer who does NOTHING but studies law and medicine, and so knows EVERY fact/loophole/workings of their field? Or would you rather have a doctor who knows a lot about medicine, and a little about art?
Same when it coems to sports/music though. Would you rather watch the person who has dedicated their life into becoming the worlds greatest soccer player? Or would you rather him be a great soccer player, who can also play a mean game of basketball?
So which is better? Having lesser skill in any one, but being skilled in multiple areas, or having reached their personal ultimate limit in any one area?
On August 28 2011 01:32 jax1492 wrote: I think all the topics she brings up are valid, but I think she really is just is missing the point .... Korea is not America. just because double eyelids seem so desired and seems odd to her we have the our standards of beauty in the usa also that may seem weird in Korea. this sounds harsh but it seems like she wants to be Korean and is now just trying to pick everything she sees wrong ... i dont think i will watch this .... i call this another case of Korea is awesome all i know is kpop and then she was surprised it wasn't like a kpop video.
p.s. i like kpop
Yea, like the OP said, she seems to be pushing Western ideals into a completely different culture. I and many of my friends who went to highschool in Korea don't really see the studying as an issue. The atmosphere of pressure motivates you to work harder than you thought you could and it also clearly separates the ones who REALLY want to work hard for a good university and the ones who might have the ability but slack off.
It's the national work ethic that brought Korea to where it is now after the depression/war/etc. At least that's the way we see it. Sure we complain, but really, who doesn't complain about highschool in any nation.
I don't think I've ever heard anybody complain about the pressure of high school at my old school.
Sure there were people who complained about stupid shit but never about anything quite as serious like this.
Regardless, I think the Korean work ethic is amazing and a lot of countries would benefit amazingly if they stressed school as much as Koreans do.
I meant it in like a "people always find things to complain about, even when they don't really have an issue with it" kind of way. Sorry, should have clarified that.
I mean, obviously Korea is a bit extreme but honestly, I prefer it over the "everyone did a great job! Test scores are private information! Class ranking isn't important at all! It's the personality/creativity/effort that counts, not the result!" kind of attitude my highschool in America had. What a joke. I don't think a single person in that school ever tried 100%
The good thing about the American highschool system is that they actually foster personality, creativity, and diversity. Students can focus on things they like and have interest in. This allows them to excel in their particular interests.
Korea doesn't really have extra curricular stuff for students and people who do sports or art pretty much ONLY do sports and art. Same with music and other stuff.
and then you have American students at #25 in Math, #12 in reading and #20 in Science in the world
I dont know, good extra curriculasr don't seems to matter if the school can't adequately provide the most important thing a school need to provide... education
and in SK study is not the only thing you can do, the kids doing kpop are also training 12+ hours per day since middle school, same for the sportsman and starcraft players
its more about deciding what you want and doing it with full commitment, whether its study, music, sports or starcraft rather than trying do everything at the same time ala USA highschool
Maybe they go to extremes in South Korea, but I like the idea of specialization. Everyone's a beautiful unique snowflake who can be good at anything they want (*), but shit, it's usually just obvious by 6th or 7th grade which have what talents. A little bit of well-rounded-ness and enrichment is ok, but I definitely think American schools ought to followed a more specific model.
On a somewhat related note, how do special needs/learning disability/speech impediment kids get treated by the education system. It seems like in America, we use a hell of a lot of resources on these ones and really care for them and basically surrogate parent them.
Video was very interesting, I had no idea about the plastic surgery thing.
Korea's high school is really fucked up you guys from west cant comprehend. My high school years were fun but most of them waste their teen. By the way high school forces students to stay until 10:00pm and after that priavte education is option.
On August 28 2011 04:16 zimz wrote: these girls are only in highschool but why do the vast majority need glasses?
glasses are a fashion/fad in korea. I know plenty korean people who don't really need glasses but wear glasses. not a big fan of it personally but whatever floats their boat
No.Most students in high school actually wear glasses,about half.Im not joking. There arent many who where glasses for fashin in school,only one or two.
Plastic surgery is really common here.There's so much internet ads and informations.
When i was in high school,it was graduation day and 3 of the girls in my class did a surgery and came to graduation.Its more fucked up in college i dont know what to believe
I like their ideals, no one is born with anything and everything comes from hard work. Plastic surgery seems like an extension of that, some people are born "naturally beautiful", but that doesn't mean they're the only one who have the "right" to be beautiful. I don't see why that idea should be shunned, people don't ask for their physical features. They should have the right to be unhappy with them if they want to be, and not just accept that's the way things are. A world where we don't have to accept anything as impossible seems to be a place where anyone can achieve whatever they put their sweat and tears into?
On August 28 2011 14:01 Malgrif wrote: I like their ideals, no one is born with anything and everything comes from hard work. Plastic surgery seems like an extension of that, some people are born "naturally beautiful", but that doesn't mean they're the only one who have the "right" to be beautiful. I don't see why that idea should be shunned, people don't ask for their physical features. They should have the right to be unhappy with them if they want to be, and not just accept that's the way things are. A world where we don't have to accept anything as impossible seems to be a place where anyone can achieve whatever they put their sweat and tears into?
Well then what about everyone looking the same.I see girls have the same nose because they went to the same doctor.They dont have individuals, they're fucking clones, establishing whats pretty or not and they all follow the big eyes,eyelids,high nose,narrow chin they're epitome beauty.
On August 28 2011 14:10 Twistacles wrote: Studying 16 hours a day for highschool is silly. Even for a PhD it makes no sense.
High School was really easy and could be done with minimal attendance, effort and motivation, while still landing 80-90s.
The standard of education across the pacific is drastically higher than education in America/Canada. They are years ahead of us in teaching. 16 hours might be excessive, but attendance and motivation are necessities in that sort of environment.
On August 28 2011 14:01 Malgrif wrote: I like their ideals, no one is born with anything and everything comes from hard work. Plastic surgery seems like an extension of that, some people are born "naturally beautiful", but that doesn't mean they're the only one who have the "right" to be beautiful. I don't see why that idea should be shunned, people don't ask for their physical features. They should have the right to be unhappy with them if they want to be, and not just accept that's the way things are. A world where we don't have to accept anything as impossible seems to be a place where anyone can achieve whatever they put their sweat and tears into?
Well then what about everyone looking the same.I see girls have the same nose because they went to the same doctor.They dont have individuals, they're fucking clones, establishing whats pretty or not and they all follow the big eyes,eyelids,high nose,narrow chin they're epitome beauty.
big eyes,eyelids, high nose, narrow chin. there's a lot of variations of all of those... I highly doubt there's the "ideal" in that sense. I don't think they're trying to be clones of someone they admire, seems like they want to change a specific feature that brings down their overall look.
On August 28 2011 14:10 Twistacles wrote: Studying 16 hours a day for highschool is silly. Even for a PhD it makes no sense.
High School was really easy and could be done with minimal attendance, effort and motivation, while still landing 80-90s.
lol, canadian education system at it's work, imbuing false sense of intelligence in it's youth. dude we got nothing on people in korea, they eat math contest questions for breakfast... i'd hate to see the korean SAT
On August 28 2011 14:01 Malgrif wrote: I like their ideals, no one is born with anything and everything comes from hard work. Plastic surgery seems like an extension of that, some people are born "naturally beautiful", but that doesn't mean they're the only one who have the "right" to be beautiful. I don't see why that idea should be shunned, people don't ask for their physical features. They should have the right to be unhappy with them if they want to be, and not just accept that's the way things are. A world where we don't have to accept anything as impossible seems to be a place where anyone can achieve whatever they put their sweat and tears into?
Well then what about everyone looking the same.I see girls have the same nose because they went to the same doctor.They dont have individuals, they're fucking clones, establishing whats pretty or not and they all follow the big eyes,eyelids,high nose,narrow chin they're epitome beauty.
I wish to live in a time when every girl looks like Emma Watson.
On August 28 2011 14:10 Twistacles wrote: Studying 16 hours a day for highschool is silly. Even for a PhD it makes no sense.
High School was really easy and could be done with minimal attendance, effort and motivation, while still landing 80-90s.
The standard of education across the pacific is drastically higher than education in America/Canada. They are years ahead of us in teaching. 16 hours might be excessive, but attendance and motivation are necessities in that sort of environment.
OK this is just an example, but what is the point of, say, making a 14 year old learn organic chemistry, something they will find extremely difficult at their age, when by the time they are 18 (the approximate age of learning organic chemistry in the West), the concept will be easily easily transitioned into their minds? They have no advantage by the time they are 21 years old plus. Cramming them at such a young age is pointless, when all that stuff can be EASILY caught up from ages 16 onwards.
The most important thing in my opinion to teach young kids is critical and scientific methods of thinking, basic maths skills and language skills. No need to cram them with subjects that are EASILY taught at an older age.
want to see this, would like to know, but since its focusing ont he last year cus of the test and stuff, it seems like it's more about the educational life rather than just high school life =/
anyways, i hope it's interesting xD i wonder if 1 person is trying to be a progamer? lol
On August 28 2011 14:01 Malgrif wrote: I like their ideals, no one is born with anything and everything comes from hard work. Plastic surgery seems like an extension of that, some people are born "naturally beautiful", but that doesn't mean they're the only one who have the "right" to be beautiful. I don't see why that idea should be shunned, people don't ask for their physical features. They should have the right to be unhappy with them if they want to be, and not just accept that's the way things are. A world where we don't have to accept anything as impossible seems to be a place where anyone can achieve whatever they put their sweat and tears into?
Well then what about everyone looking the same.I see girls have the same nose because they went to the same doctor.They dont have individuals, they're fucking clones, establishing whats pretty or not and they all follow the big eyes,eyelids,high nose,narrow chin they're epitome beauty.
If they think it is more beautiful, even if only they themselves think that, I don't see why we should be against them. Like in America, braces are super popular and it's pretty much the same thing. Changing facial structure to something that will boost your self confidence. Maybe you don't agree with it but idk how people can be against it..
On August 28 2011 14:01 Malgrif wrote: I like their ideals, no one is born with anything and everything comes from hard work. Plastic surgery seems like an extension of that, some people are born "naturally beautiful", but that doesn't mean they're the only one who have the "right" to be beautiful. I don't see why that idea should be shunned, people don't ask for their physical features. They should have the right to be unhappy with them if they want to be, and not just accept that's the way things are. A world where we don't have to accept anything as impossible seems to be a place where anyone can achieve whatever they put their sweat and tears into?
? since when did anything infer that in korea everything comes from hard work? cause that is not true. there are alot of unfair scenarios in korea and alot of the people at the top didn't get there from solely hard work.
their education system seems to be a good indicator. i thought it went without saying that no system is perfect...
I think it's the exact opposite of US society. Here, now a days we are given everything with minimal work, while Koreans have to put in maximal work for very little return. I barely pay attention in class at university, and I stand to inherit more assets than I could possibly need, while they study for so long in a super high competitive environment. At least I'll be at the top of the bubble when it bursts, and all the hard working asian students will get what they truly deserve.
I think it's interesting that Korean girls place so much interest in their faces (trying to look more anglo), even though they have much fairer skin than most North American girls. It's strange that they go for face jobs rather than boob jobs like most american plastic surgery clients.
On August 28 2011 14:59 Endymion wrote: I think it's interesting that Korean girls place so much interest in their faces (trying to look more anglo), even though they have much fairer skin than most North American girls. It's strange that they go for face jobs rather than boob jobs like most american plastic surgery clients.
Boob jobs are done here as well (probably the number 1 procedure for the body), but overall most Koreans go for facial surgery, yes. That, and it also seems to me like body surgery, especially boob jobs, are a lot more taboo here in general.
You should see some of the crazy types of surgery available and openly advertised, though. My gyno in Korea has pamphlets advertising vaginal tightening surgeries. O.o
This is probably why Korean are so good at starcraft. They play it with the same dedication as school. This is why you most Korean gamers have really bad grades in school, with the exception of OPTIMUS FUCKING PRIME. But yes, everything they do they put forward their effort and dedication. In America, you could be a good student and a progamer.... Too bad you suck compare to everyone else, but it's still acceptable.
On August 28 2011 14:59 Endymion wrote: I think it's interesting that Korean girls place so much interest in their faces (trying to look more anglo), even though they have much fairer skin than most North American girls. It's strange that they go for face jobs rather than boob jobs like most american plastic surgery clients.
Boob jobs are done here as well (probably the number 1 procedure for the body), but overall most Koreans go for facial surgery, yes. That, and it also seems to me like body surgery, especially boob jobs, are a lot more taboo here in general.
You should see some of the crazy types of surgery available and openly advertised, though. My gyno in Korea has pamphlets advertising vaginal tightening surgeries. O.o
Oh really?? That's very interesting, I didn't know that they were also into body surgery. And yeah, vaginal surgery is also really popular in the states as well, so that it doesn't show through bathing suits, and also so that your partner doesn't "think you're ugly," it's a strange world we live in hah.
Well let's look at the size of SK compared to say the USA, and imagine the ratio of people competing for limited university/job space. Here there are a ton of private and state schools available, so even those that do only slightly above average in school have access to the type of education slot that, for example, maybe only 1 out of 5 Koreans that applied could get into over there. Thus you have a lot more people actually trying hard to improve their chances, others see that and also try harder, and the system sort of moves along naturally.
On August 28 2011 14:01 Malgrif wrote: I like their ideals, no one is born with anything and everything comes from hard work. Plastic surgery seems like an extension of that, some people are born "naturally beautiful", but that doesn't mean they're the only one who have the "right" to be beautiful. I don't see why that idea should be shunned, people don't ask for their physical features. They should have the right to be unhappy with them if they want to be, and not just accept that's the way things are. A world where we don't have to accept anything as impossible seems to be a place where anyone can achieve whatever they put their sweat and tears into?
? since when did anything infer that in korea everything comes from hard work? cause that is not true. there are alot of unfair scenarios in korea and alot of the people at the top didn't get there from solely hard work.
their education system seems to be a good indicator. i thought it went without saying that no system is perfect...
it really isnt too much different from america (fairness). it just seems that way because of the insane competition in korea that requires extra hard work.
On August 28 2011 15:07 Xplitcit wrote: This is probably why Korean are so good at starcraft. They play it with the same dedication as school. This is why you most Korean gamers have really bad grades in school, with the exception of OPTIMUS FUCKING PRIME. But yes, everything they do they put forward their effort and dedication. In America, you could be a good student and a progamer.... Too bad you suck compare to everyone else, but it's still acceptable.
can u provide us the source where you claimed most of us korean are idiot?
On August 28 2011 15:07 Xplitcit wrote: This is probably why Korean are so good at starcraft. They play it with the same dedication as school. This is why you most Korean gamers have really bad grades in school, with the exception of OPTIMUS FUCKING PRIME. But yes, everything they do they put forward their effort and dedication. In America, you could be a good student and a progamer.... Too bad you suck compare to everyone else, but it's still acceptable.
can u provide us the source where you claimed most of us korean are idiot?
I don't think he was saying that most Koreans are idiots. I think he was saying that most Korean gamers don't do too well in school, probably because they don't care much about school. You are Korean... do you think this is true? Are great gamers bad in school? If it's anything like Japan they are.
I'm sure that the Korean gamers are the really smart ones actually, but they just don't apply themselves in school.
Just checked in the mirror. I have that fold in the eye that they're all trying to get. Now I don't have to waste my plastic surgery on that when I graduate! I digress though. Pretty crazy, I can't imagine studying/going to school that long. At least it seems they have a longer lunch break and that TV in the classroom to break it up. To be honest, Koreans have always reminded me of the Ferengi(sp?) from Star Trek. To be fair though, America is heading down that path pretty quick, but I can't help but note the similarities.
On August 28 2011 15:07 Xplitcit wrote: This is probably why Korean are so good at starcraft. They play it with the same dedication as school. This is why you most Korean gamers have really bad grades in school, with the exception of OPTIMUS FUCKING PRIME. But yes, everything they do they put forward their effort and dedication. In America, you could be a good student and a progamer.... Too bad you suck compare to everyone else, but it's still acceptable.
can u provide us the source where you claimed most of us korean are idiot?
I don't think he was saying that most Koreans are idiots. I think he was saying that most Korean gamers don't do too well in school, probably because they don't care much about school. You are Korean... do you think this is true? Are great gamers bad in school? If it's anything like Japan they are.
I'm sure that the Korean gamers are the really smart ones actually, but they just don't apply themselves in school.
i meant to add gamers (oops) .i was bit ignorant and little bit pissed off how he posted shit without any proof
On August 28 2011 15:32 RosaParksStoleMySeat wrote:
On August 28 2011 15:28 jidolboy wrote:
On August 28 2011 15:07 Xplitcit wrote: This is probably why Korean are so good at starcraft. They play it with the same dedication as school. This is why you most Korean gamers have really bad grades in school, with the exception of OPTIMUS FUCKING PRIME. But yes, everything they do they put forward their effort and dedication. In America, you could be a good student and a progamer.... Too bad you suck compare to everyone else, but it's still acceptable.
can u provide us the source where you claimed most of us korean are idiot?
I don't think he was saying that most Koreans are idiots. I think he was saying that most Korean gamers don't do too well in school, probably because they don't care much about school. You are Korean... do you think this is true? Are great gamers bad in school? If it's anything like Japan they are.
I'm sure that the Korean gamers are the really smart ones actually, but they just don't apply themselves in school.
i meant to add gamers (oops) .i was bit ignorant and little bit pissed off how he posted shit without any proof
Oh no, I think you just misunderstood. In Western countries we believe that a lot of very smart people get poor grades in school for other reasons, but in East Asia (where I've spent the last four years), I've noticed that people are considered stupid for having poor grades. We think that very very smart people tend to have poor grades because classes don't interest them and they don't study much.
South Korea is so results oriented, they do what it takes to get the job done, which explains pretty much every facet of their cultural differences, they get plastic surgery because it's a sure way to "fix" their proportions in a culture that ranks the beauty of someones face far more objectively than in America, they stay overnight at schools to study for their university exams because they realize that your higher education degree carries your future career in most cases, they understand that you have to put the work in to get the results..which of course means everything is so goddamn competitive..and of course, when you live in a culture that competitive you get people who realize they're never going to realize the dream they worked tooth and nail for and kill themselves
I actually think their culture is quite beautiful like this, I believe plastic surgery growth is an inevitable trend that will increase anyways as technology improves..
the biggest problem to me is school pressure, which is not really the fault of Koreans but of the international higher education system in general. Who actually goes to university to specifically learn these days? I go to university because I want to develop my skills for my profession. Except the only way I can get the skills for my profession is to have internships at my profession, which I could only get by completing arbitrary bachelors and masters and certifications, depending on the profession. I have used little to none of the skills I learned in my university and professional certification courses in the workplace, nothing that could have been learned with far less effort than I put in.
Koreans have done an amazing job of competing internationally for positions in high ranking universities; there are so many Koreans in prestigious programs in my university, almost competing with mainland Chinese populations which is incredible given their population difference.
Huh... It's intriguing that the concept the beauty seems to have changed in SK. Pretty sure those girls werent considered ugly something like 50 years ago. Globalization hurts in different ways eh ?
Which leads to an eventual big question, how to fix this ? I personally don't feel like it's possible to change the idea of beauty in such a society anymore. Maybe some sort of import of foreign natural beauties can alleviate this over time ?
On August 28 2011 14:10 Twistacles wrote: Studying 16 hours a day for highschool is silly. Even for a PhD it makes no sense.
High School was really easy and could be done with minimal attendance, effort and motivation, while still landing 80-90s.
The standard of education across the pacific is drastically higher than education in America/Canada. They are years ahead of us in teaching. 16 hours might be excessive, but attendance and motivation are necessities in that sort of environment.
OK this is just an example, but what is the point of, say, making a 14 year old learn organic chemistry, something they will find extremely difficult at their age, when by the time they are 18 (the approximate age of learning organic chemistry in the West), the concept will be easily easily transitioned into their minds? They have no advantage by the time they are 21 years old plus. Cramming them at such a young age is pointless, when all that stuff can be EASILY caught up from ages 16 onwards.
The most important thing in my opinion to teach young kids is critical and scientific methods of thinking, basic maths skills and language skills. No need to cram them with subjects that are EASILY taught at an older age.
You are making some huge assumptions that I would say would be most likely to be wrong.
Is it more difficult to understand something just because you are younger? Speaking from neuroscience perspective, do you develop additional neural synapse simply with age? Or would get higher number of neural synapse with more studying despite of what age you may be? I am not a PhD in neuroscience and I am not gonna pretend like I went through research that pertains to that topic - but my graduate studying in medicine and health care tells me that you are wrong to simply relate neuro capacity with age.
Korean students, especially in their junior high and high school years, are simply provided with more and higher level of education (probably mostly from their heavier educational content). This I can attest to as I tutored high school kids for 4+ years, and the ones from Korea I've seen to have higher level of understanding. (ie. 9th grader will have understanding of 11th grade math with ease)
You are being ignorant to say that 'it is pointless to cram at such young age', Koreans, at least in their high school education, are simply ahead when compared to that of North american standard.
On August 28 2011 14:10 Twistacles wrote: Studying 16 hours a day for highschool is silly. Even for a PhD it makes no sense.
High School was really easy and could be done with minimal attendance, effort and motivation, while still landing 80-90s.
The standard of education across the pacific is drastically higher than education in America/Canada. They are years ahead of us in teaching. 16 hours might be excessive, but attendance and motivation are necessities in that sort of environment.
OK this is just an example, but what is the point of, say, making a 14 year old learn organic chemistry, something they will find extremely difficult at their age, when by the time they are 18 (the approximate age of learning organic chemistry in the West), the concept will be easily easily transitioned into their minds? They have no advantage by the time they are 21 years old plus. Cramming them at such a young age is pointless, when all that stuff can be EASILY caught up from ages 16 onwards.
The most important thing in my opinion to teach young kids is critical and scientific methods of thinking, basic maths skills and language skills. No need to cram them with subjects that are EASILY taught at an older age.
On August 28 2011 14:59 Endymion wrote: I think it's the exact opposite of US society. Here, now a days we are given everything with minimal work, while Koreans have to put in maximal work for very little return. I barely pay attention in class at university, and I stand to inherit more assets than I could possibly need, while they study for so long in a super high competitive environment. At least I'll be at the top of the bubble when it bursts, and all the hard working asian students will get what they truly deserve.
I think it's interesting that Korean girls place so much interest in their faces (trying to look more anglo), even though they have much fairer skin than most North American girls. It's strange that they go for face jobs rather than boob jobs like most american plastic surgery clients.
Once again, you assume just 'cause u got good grades in NA university with your minimal work, you are at par with those who spent more hours (possibly double or more of what you put into yours) in high school, and same or more hours in their university. Logic and rational thought process, which is backed by scientific facts (which we get from scientific research), says they are more likely to have higher level of understanding and have higher capacity to apply their knowledge to improving the real world.
On August 28 2011 01:32 jax1492 wrote: I think all the topics she brings up are valid, but I think she really is just is missing the point .... Korea is not America. just because double eyelids seem so desired and seems odd to her we have the our standards of beauty in the usa also that may seem weird in Korea. this sounds harsh but it seems like she wants to be Korean and is now just trying to pick everything she sees wrong ... i dont think i will watch this .... i call this another case of Korea is awesome all i know is kpop and then she was surprised it wasn't like a kpop video.
p.s. i like kpop
Yea, like the OP said, she seems to be pushing Western ideals into a completely different culture. I and many of my friends who went to highschool in Korea don't really see the studying as an issue. The atmosphere of pressure motivates you to work harder than you thought you could and it also clearly separates the ones who REALLY want to work hard for a good university and the ones who might have the ability but slack off.
It's the national work ethic that brought Korea to where it is now after the depression/war/etc. At least that's the way we see it. Sure we complain, but really, who doesn't complain about highschool in any nation.
I don't think I've ever heard anybody complain about the pressure of high school at my old school.
Sure there were people who complained about stupid shit but never about anything quite as serious like this.
Regardless, I think the Korean work ethic is amazing and a lot of countries would benefit amazingly if they stressed school as much as Koreans do.
I meant it in like a "people always find things to complain about, even when they don't really have an issue with it" kind of way. Sorry, should have clarified that.
I mean, obviously Korea is a bit extreme but honestly, I prefer it over the "everyone did a great job! Test scores are private information! Class ranking isn't important at all! It's the personality/creativity/effort that counts, not the result!" kind of attitude my highschool in America had. What a joke. I don't think a single person in that school ever tried 100%
The good thing about the American highschool system is that they actually foster personality, creativity, and diversity. Students can focus on things they like and have interest in. This allows them to excel in their particular interests.
Korea doesn't really have extra curricular stuff for students and people who do sports or art pretty much ONLY do sports and art. Same with music and other stuff.
and then you have American students at #25 in Math, #12 in reading and #20 in Science in the world
I dont know, good extra curriculasr don't seems to matter if the school can't adequately provide the most important thing a school need to provide... education
and in SK study is not the only thing you can do, the kids doing kpop are also training 12+ hours per day since middle school, same for the sportsman and starcraft players
its more about deciding what you want and doing it with full commitment, whether its study, music, sports or starcraft rather than trying do everything at the same time ala USA highschool
But then again, American highschool students are generally more well-rounded and flexible. What if you decide that being an artist is actually not your true dream? What if you were a soccer player and you sustained an injury that would never let you play soccer again? What if you weren't good enough to make it into a group as a kpop singer? Those students in korea barely have anything to fall back on and it's VERY hard if you switch.
Is this fact or opinion?
Can you provide evidence to support this claim that American students are more well-rounded as individuals?
Is this even a claim that is possible to prove?
I understand that a lot of people get angry when you say things like "This culture is just different... its not wrong or worse than yours, its just different" because people feel like you are just copping out of an argument, or taking the easiest stance.
But IMO this is just one of those things that is just a cultural stances on something, that is different from other ones. How can you say which is better or worse?
IMO there are scenarios in which either stance is more beneificial.
Would you rather have a doctor/lawyer who does NOTHING but studies law and medicine, and so knows EVERY fact/loophole/workings of their field? Or would you rather have a doctor who knows a lot about medicine, and a little about art?
Same when it coems to sports/music though. Would you rather watch the person who has dedicated their life into becoming the worlds greatest soccer player? Or would you rather him be a great soccer player, who can also play a mean game of basketball?
So which is better? Having lesser skill in any one, but being skilled in multiple areas, or having reached their personal ultimate limit in any one area?
...¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I don't know how I would prove this but being Korean-American and having been around Korean people my whole life I have heard so many stories of people failing because the transition from a specialization to general academic study was too hard. Yes it's true that early specialization can be good, but I feel like the consequences compared to the rewards is much greater. Remember, some kids choose to do only sports (disregarding their studies) in middle school. Do you think that a few less hours a day of practice in middle school will make that big of impact? If it did, why aren't Koreans whooping every other countries' asses? Again, we aren't talking about college or graduate school. A doctor isn't going to be defined by his highschool year. That analogy just doesn't work. A doctor becomes a doctor by going to med school and loads of other steps to becoming a doctor first.
You're making this sound like we're talking about graduate school and PhD's... we're talking about middle/high school students. In America there are tons of people who don't even pick a major till their 4th year of college and still do excellent in their career. Also, look at NBA players. They all had to do their academic requirements and they are still the best in the world.
On August 28 2011 01:32 jax1492 wrote: I think all the topics she brings up are valid, but I think she really is just is missing the point .... Korea is not America. just because double eyelids seem so desired and seems odd to her we have the our standards of beauty in the usa also that may seem weird in Korea. this sounds harsh but it seems like she wants to be Korean and is now just trying to pick everything she sees wrong ... i dont think i will watch this .... i call this another case of Korea is awesome all i know is kpop and then she was surprised it wasn't like a kpop video.
p.s. i like kpop
Yea, like the OP said, she seems to be pushing Western ideals into a completely different culture. I and many of my friends who went to highschool in Korea don't really see the studying as an issue. The atmosphere of pressure motivates you to work harder than you thought you could and it also clearly separates the ones who REALLY want to work hard for a good university and the ones who might have the ability but slack off.
It's the national work ethic that brought Korea to where it is now after the depression/war/etc. At least that's the way we see it. Sure we complain, but really, who doesn't complain about highschool in any nation.
I don't think I've ever heard anybody complain about the pressure of high school at my old school.
Sure there were people who complained about stupid shit but never about anything quite as serious like this.
Regardless, I think the Korean work ethic is amazing and a lot of countries would benefit amazingly if they stressed school as much as Koreans do.
I meant it in like a "people always find things to complain about, even when they don't really have an issue with it" kind of way. Sorry, should have clarified that.
I mean, obviously Korea is a bit extreme but honestly, I prefer it over the "everyone did a great job! Test scores are private information! Class ranking isn't important at all! It's the personality/creativity/effort that counts, not the result!" kind of attitude my highschool in America had. What a joke. I don't think a single person in that school ever tried 100%
The good thing about the American highschool system is that they actually foster personality, creativity, and diversity. Students can focus on things they like and have interest in. This allows them to excel in their particular interests.
Korea doesn't really have extra curricular stuff for students and people who do sports or art pretty much ONLY do sports and art. Same with music and other stuff.
and then you have American students at #25 in Math, #12 in reading and #20 in Science in the world
I dont know, good extra curriculasr don't seems to matter if the school can't adequately provide the most important thing a school need to provide... education
and in SK study is not the only thing you can do, the kids doing kpop are also training 12+ hours per day since middle school, same for the sportsman and starcraft players
its more about deciding what you want and doing it with full commitment, whether its study, music, sports or starcraft rather than trying do everything at the same time ala USA highschool
Maybe they go to extremes in South Korea, but I like the idea of specialization. Everyone's a beautiful unique snowflake who can be good at anything they want (*), but shit, it's usually just obvious by 6th or 7th grade which have what talents. A little bit of well-rounded-ness and enrichment is ok, but I definitely think American schools ought to followed a more specific model.
On a somewhat related note, how do special needs/learning disability/speech impediment kids get treated by the education system. It seems like in America, we use a hell of a lot of resources on these ones and really care for them and basically surrogate parent them.
Video was very interesting, I had no idea about the plastic surgery thing.
Dunno, there are kids like me who really have no idea what they have talent in and what they want to do. I'm a highschool senior now and I'm still not sure about my talents or what I want to do. I'm pretty much below average, average, and above average at alot of stuff. There is nothing I'm horrid at and there is nothing I'm amazing at. You could almost call me the ultimate "average joe". I'm glad high school/college doesn't force you to pick a major or anything because I changed my "future career" 6 times since 8th grade.
Now just for the record, I am with you on most of your points, but, when you are talking about sports especially (since my undergrad background is in kinesiology), you can't compare higher number of hours in athletics to success in athletics.
For one, Korean students who 'all-in' into athletics aren't necessarily spending more time honing and practicing their sports related skills (NA counter parts, for one example, would be playing in their school team, as well as AAA, AA leagues, of course I'm speaking about elite of elites in junior/high school)
Second, when it comes to sports (and also to university/graduate programs) infrastructure plays a big role. Simply spending 18 hours a day on ur specialty may not mean much when you are learning from a inferior system that is behind in standard by far.
But I absolutely agree with you when it comes to specialization that is normative in Korea.
On August 28 2011 13:42 Benga wrote: Korea's high school is really fucked up you guys from west cant comprehend. My high school years were fun but most of them waste their teen. By the way high school forces students to stay until 10:00pm and after that priavte education is option.
Private education wouldn't be seen as being optional if you are one of those students (or parents of those students) that are aiming for the IB league university in Korea.
Granted, SK's HS system has certainly has its problems, but I disagree that American system is any better. At least SK has something to show for with their HS students placing second in academic abilities after Finland. Although it sucks for South Korean students and their parents, education system that they have is necessary/ inevitable for SK to remain competetive globally. What SK lacks in natural resources, it has to make up through human resources. It's too bad that unlike their high schools, their universities are a total fail. I am very much interested in seeing this documentary, but I don't know how the film will achieve its goal of alleviating stress for Korean HS students.
On August 28 2011 15:32 RosaParksStoleMySeat wrote:
On August 28 2011 15:28 jidolboy wrote:
On August 28 2011 15:07 Xplitcit wrote: This is probably why Korean are so good at starcraft. They play it with the same dedication as school. This is why you most Korean gamers have really bad grades in school, with the exception of OPTIMUS FUCKING PRIME. But yes, everything they do they put forward their effort and dedication. In America, you could be a good student and a progamer.... Too bad you suck compare to everyone else, but it's still acceptable.
can u provide us the source where you claimed most of us korean are idiot?
I don't think he was saying that most Koreans are idiots. I think he was saying that most Korean gamers don't do too well in school, probably because they don't care much about school. You are Korean... do you think this is true? Are great gamers bad in school? If it's anything like Japan they are.
I'm sure that the Korean gamers are the really smart ones actually, but they just don't apply themselves in school.
i meant to add gamers (oops) .i was bit ignorant and little bit pissed off how he posted shit without any proof
Oh no, I think you just misunderstood. In Western countries we believe that a lot of very smart people get poor grades in school for other reasons, but in East Asia (where I've spent the last four years), I've noticed that people are considered stupid for having poor grades. We think that very very smart people tend to have poor grades because classes don't interest them and they don't study much.
No "we" don't. I've never even heard of this, getting bad grades -> smart but lazy? That's like the #1 excuse someone will drop when getting a bad grade man :S
from a koreans point of view...im against the production of this video simply because itll inevitably show many bad things about korean society and its values but the truth is the truth and it has to be said T_T i just hope the director is as unbiased as possible and at least shows the good sides of korea too
id have a lot more peace of mind if she was older/had more experience though
On August 28 2011 15:41 RosaParksStoleMySeat wrote:
On August 28 2011 15:37 jidolboy wrote:
On August 28 2011 15:32 RosaParksStoleMySeat wrote:
On August 28 2011 15:28 jidolboy wrote:
On August 28 2011 15:07 Xplitcit wrote: This is probably why Korean are so good at starcraft. They play it with the same dedication as school. This is why you most Korean gamers have really bad grades in school, with the exception of OPTIMUS FUCKING PRIME. But yes, everything they do they put forward their effort and dedication. In America, you could be a good student and a progamer.... Too bad you suck compare to everyone else, but it's still acceptable.
can u provide us the source where you claimed most of us korean are idiot?
I don't think he was saying that most Koreans are idiots. I think he was saying that most Korean gamers don't do too well in school, probably because they don't care much about school. You are Korean... do you think this is true? Are great gamers bad in school? If it's anything like Japan they are.
I'm sure that the Korean gamers are the really smart ones actually, but they just don't apply themselves in school.
i meant to add gamers (oops) .i was bit ignorant and little bit pissed off how he posted shit without any proof
Oh no, I think you just misunderstood. In Western countries we believe that a lot of very smart people get poor grades in school for other reasons, but in East Asia (where I've spent the last four years), I've noticed that people are considered stupid for having poor grades. We think that very very smart people tend to have poor grades because classes don't interest them and they don't study much.
No "we" don't. I've never even heard of this, getting bad grades -> smart but lazy? That's like the #1 excuse someone will drop when getting a bad grade man :S
some might call it an excuse, but it is the truth in many cases i have a friend who was a straight A student up till year 10 but dropped in years 11 and 12 because he got hooked on dance and dota by the end of yr 12 his average grades were C- because he just didnt give a shit about education and you may argue that in the earlier stages of highschool you dont have to be smart to get good grades, but believe me. this guy was smart
On August 28 2011 20:17 RinesOnRx wrote: Granted, SK's HS system has certainly has its problems, but I disagree that American system is any better. At least SK has something to show for with their HS students placing second in academic abilities after Finland.
what I think is really interesting is the huge difference between the school system in Finland and the one used in SK. It's like the complete opposite in FInland and they place first in the UNO education index
It's hard to educate yourself since our societies are such a liquid manure pit with no proper behaviour and huge, extraordinary amounts of misinformation.
And then there is the goal of educating yourself. Advancing in a hierarchy and treating other people like garbage, spread the misinformation, sabotage them etc.
Everyone knows that it is that way.
I don't know a single teacher, who was cooperative. They all tried to play their mind-games with me. What do they expect?
I look at education like every other bourgeois construct. It's a scheme to enrich the people on top while being a lie. And the so-called rules inside of the construct are constantly being violated (the law for instance). It only counts, when a powerful person decides to let it count (in half of the cases maybe).
On August 28 2011 20:17 RinesOnRx wrote: Granted, SK's HS system has certainly has its problems, but I disagree that American system is any better. At least SK has something to show for with their HS students placing second in academic abilities after Finland. Although it sucks for South Korean students and their parents, education system that they have is necessary/ inevitable for SK to remain competetive globally. What SK lacks in natural resources, it has to make up through human resources. It's too bad that unlike their high schools, their universities are a total fail. I am very much interested in seeing this documentary, but I don't know how the film will achieve its goal of alleviating stress for Korean HS students.
Can you pls explain that a bit more, of course only if u don't mind because i' m really interested in this.
On August 28 2011 20:17 RinesOnRx wrote: Granted, SK's HS system has certainly has its problems, but I disagree that American system is any better. At least SK has something to show for with their HS students placing second in academic abilities after Finland. Although it sucks for South Korean students and their parents, education system that they have is necessary/ inevitable for SK to remain competetive globally. What SK lacks in natural resources, it has to make up through human resources. It's too bad that unlike their high schools, their universities are a total fail. I am very much interested in seeing this documentary, but I don't know how the film will achieve its goal of alleviating stress for Korean HS students.
I wonder where you are getting your sources from that their universities are a total fail.
I did not experience Korean university, so I cannot say for sure what the general university experience/study is like in Korea. But I can tell you at least the health care side of university is not lax at all. It is right up there with the medical schools and other health care field programs of Canada/US. And by the health care programs in Korea I mean medical doctorate programs & traditional Korean medicine programs. They both have very difficult and challenging curriculum as well as producing good and competent doctors.
(and as for source, I myself am studying a Western health care program as well as having other very close acquaintances studying other parts of Western health care programs. Also I have friends in Korea who are studying those 2 programs (MD program & Korean traditional medicine program)
To me it seems more of a relative comparison when they say Korean university is easy (when compared to their high school counterpart). Please don't assume they can pass through their university program w/o undertaking any serious effort & still be successful after they graduate.
On August 28 2011 20:17 RinesOnRx wrote: Granted, SK's HS system has certainly has its problems, but I disagree that American system is any better. At least SK has something to show for with their HS students placing second in academic abilities after Finland. Although it sucks for South Korean students and their parents, education system that they have is necessary/ inevitable for SK to remain competetive globally. What SK lacks in natural resources, it has to make up through human resources. It's too bad that unlike their high schools, their universities are a total fail. I am very much interested in seeing this documentary, but I don't know how the film will achieve its goal of alleviating stress for Korean HS students.
I wonder where you are getting your sources from that their universities are a total fail.
I did not experience Korean university, so I cannot say for sure what the general university experience/study is like in Korea. But I can tell you at least the health care side of university is not lax at all. It is right up there with the medical schools and other health care field programs of Canada/US. And by the health care programs in Korea I mean medical doctorate programs & traditional Korean medicine programs. They both have very difficult and challenging curriculum as well as producing good and competent doctors.
(and as for source, I myself am studying a Western health care program as well as having other very close acquaintances studying other parts of Western health care programs. Also I have friends in Korea who are studying those 2 programs (MD program & Korean traditional medicine program)
To me it seems more of a relative comparison when they say Korean university is easy (when compared to their high school counterpart). Please don't assume they can pass through their university program w/o undertaking any serious effort & still be successful after they graduate.
If you look at many of the worldwide university ranking lists, the Korean "Ivies" (SKY) tend to rank quite poorly compared to other big name universities. These top Korean unis only rank 250-300th in international lists, which could be considered weak compared to most large American universities which dominate these lists. I don't agree with the other poster that they are "total fail," but he is correct in that they do not have the same reputation outside of Korea as they do inside.
On August 28 2011 20:17 RinesOnRx wrote: Granted, SK's HS system has certainly has its problems, but I disagree that American system is any better. At least SK has something to show for with their HS students placing second in academic abilities after Finland. Although it sucks for South Korean students and their parents, education system that they have is necessary/ inevitable for SK to remain competetive globally. What SK lacks in natural resources, it has to make up through human resources. It's too bad that unlike their high schools, their universities are a total fail. I am very much interested in seeing this documentary, but I don't know how the film will achieve its goal of alleviating stress for Korean HS students.
I wonder where you are getting your sources from that their universities are a total fail.
I did not experience Korean university, so I cannot say for sure what the general university experience/study is like in Korea. But I can tell you at least the health care side of university is not lax at all. It is right up there with the medical schools and other health care field programs of Canada/US. And by the health care programs in Korea I mean medical doctorate programs & traditional Korean medicine programs. They both have very difficult and challenging curriculum as well as producing good and competent doctors.
(and as for source, I myself am studying a Western health care program as well as having other very close acquaintances studying other parts of Western health care programs. Also I have friends in Korea who are studying those 2 programs (MD program & Korean traditional medicine program)
To me it seems more of a relative comparison when they say Korean university is easy (when compared to their high school counterpart). Please don't assume they can pass through their university program w/o undertaking any serious effort & still be successful after they graduate.
If you look at many of the worldwide university ranking lists, the Korean "Ivies" (SKY) tend to rank quite poorly compared to other big name universities. These top Korean unis only rank 250-300th in international lists, which could be considered weak compared to most large American universities which dominate these lists. I don't agree with the other poster that they are "total fail," but he is correct in that they do not have the same reputation outside of Korea as they do inside.
It would be nice if you would actually post a source for this, instead of just posting that. Myself I have been looking for some worldwide lists some time ago, but I felt they were totally biased towards the US. Not saying it isn't true, just that there are no real reasons to assume korean universities are weak.
On August 28 2011 20:17 RinesOnRx wrote: Granted, SK's HS system has certainly has its problems, but I disagree that American system is any better. At least SK has something to show for with their HS students placing second in academic abilities after Finland. Although it sucks for South Korean students and their parents, education system that they have is necessary/ inevitable for SK to remain competetive globally. What SK lacks in natural resources, it has to make up through human resources. It's too bad that unlike their high schools, their universities are a total fail. I am very much interested in seeing this documentary, but I don't know how the film will achieve its goal of alleviating stress for Korean HS students.
I wonder where you are getting your sources from that their universities are a total fail.
I did not experience Korean university, so I cannot say for sure what the general university experience/study is like in Korea. But I can tell you at least the health care side of university is not lax at all. It is right up there with the medical schools and other health care field programs of Canada/US. And by the health care programs in Korea I mean medical doctorate programs & traditional Korean medicine programs. They both have very difficult and challenging curriculum as well as producing good and competent doctors.
(and as for source, I myself am studying a Western health care program as well as having other very close acquaintances studying other parts of Western health care programs. Also I have friends in Korea who are studying those 2 programs (MD program & Korean traditional medicine program)
To me it seems more of a relative comparison when they say Korean university is easy (when compared to their high school counterpart). Please don't assume they can pass through their university program w/o undertaking any serious effort & still be successful after they graduate.
If you look at many of the worldwide university ranking lists, the Korean "Ivies" (SKY) tend to rank quite poorly compared to other big name universities. These top Korean unis only rank 250-300th in international lists, which could be considered weak compared to most large American universities which dominate these lists. I don't agree with the other poster that they are "total fail," but he is correct in that they do not have the same reputation outside of Korea as they do inside.
It would be nice if you would actually post a source for this, instead of just posting that. Myself I have been looking for some worldwide lists some time ago, but I felt they were totally biased towards the US. Not saying it isn't true, just that there are no real reasons to assume korean universities are weak.
Sure. Always good to show sources.
First, if you are worried about American bias, here's an often cited ranking list put together by Shanghai Jiao Tong University. They place the top Korean schools between 200-300th.
They rank the SKY between 80th-170th, which is better, but still well below other top American, European, and Asian universities.
On top of that, since so much money is funneled into the SKY schools the lower ranked Korean schools are very poorly funded and looked down on as inferior.
My wife is from Hong Kong and came to Canada when she was 13 to study. I know it's not Korea but the same principles of supply and demand when it comes to availability of high-level education still hold for a small region where spots at universities and good high schools are hard to come by. The rest of her family did the same - as I am told is typical for families in China (mainly Hong Kong) who have the resources to send their kids abroad. I noticed the same thing when I attended university and found that more than half of the kids in my engineering classes at the UofA were Chinese.
As such, she got to attend a good university and get a good education without killing herself for it. It sucks that more families don't have the capabilities to make this happen (life and tuition as an international student is insanely expensive compared to us 'locals').
I remember when I finished high-school I was a less-than interested student though I still had the option to attend the program of my choice in the university of my choice in my country. What I mean is that I had zero stress as a student, never tortured myself over it (don't get me wrong, I had good grades), but could still get a top notch education wherever I wanted. I can see why so many people from Asian countries come here to get their education - our population is small and our universities are pretty decent (though based on the list above me, I should have went to McGill, dangit).
Anyways, sad. My memo to places like Korea or China or wherever is to please send your kids over here and let them live a more stress-free (albeit colder) life. And preferably at a young age so they stick around and make us a better country. Thanks for the donation, Asia!
The Academic Ranking of World Universities (ARWU) is first published in June 2003 by the Center for World-Class Universities (CWCU), Graduate School of Education (formerly the Institute of Higher Education) of Shanghai Jiao Tong University, China, and updated on an annual basis. ARWU uses six objective indicators to rank world universities, including the number of alumni and staff winning Nobel Prizes and Fields Medals, number of highly cited researchers selected by Thomson Scientific, number of articles published in journals of Nature and Science, number of articles indexed in Science Citation Index - Expanded and Social Sciences Citation Index, and per capita performance with respect to the size of an institution. More than 1000 universities are actually ranked by ARWU every year and the best 500 are published on the web.
Although the initial purpose of ARWU was to find the global standing of top Chinese universities, it has attracted a great deal of attention from universities, governments and public media worldwide. ARWU has been reported by mainstream media in almost all major countries. Hundreds of universities cited the ranking results in their campus news, annual reports or promotional brochures. A survey on higher education published by The Economist in 2005 commented ARWU as "the most widely used annual ranking of the world's research universities". Burton Bollag, a reporter at Chronicle of Higher Education wrote that ARWU "is considered the most influential international ranking".
On August 28 2011 20:17 RinesOnRx wrote: Granted, SK's HS system has certainly has its problems, but I disagree that American system is any better. At least SK has something to show for with their HS students placing second in academic abilities after Finland. Although it sucks for South Korean students and their parents, education system that they have is necessary/ inevitable for SK to remain competetive globally. What SK lacks in natural resources, it has to make up through human resources. It's too bad that unlike their high schools, their universities are a total fail. I am very much interested in seeing this documentary, but I don't know how the film will achieve its goal of alleviating stress for Korean HS students.
Can you pls explain that a bit more, of course only if u don't mind because i' m really interested in this.
I don't have much time right now so this post will be brief. I will supplement it with more information with data/ articles afterwards. As posters mentioned above, Korean schools' rankings are mediocore at best. I think Seoul University is the only one that is in top 100, and Yonsei and Korea are in the top 200. This is dismal considering there are ~200 univeristies in Korean and its students are the ones who ranked second internationally in HS. However, this doesn't really bother me because universities' rankings are indicative of its research capabilities, which doesn't necessarily correlate with the quality of education received by its students. What really bothers me about Korean university is that many students don't take their studies seriously, nor are they required to do so by the university. Korean society is obsessed with the name of the school that you go to/ graduate from, hence why HS students go through such a rigourous competition. But once university starts, many students simply lose focus in their studies and their career goals. There was an article stating that while SK students have one of the highest acceptance rates into Harvard, they also have the highest drop out rates. Students are more interested in student hobby groups, nightlife, etc. instead of their academics. Honestly, the streets around universities in Seoul look like an entertainment district filled with restaurants, bars, etc. Grade inflation is ludicrous in Korea. I read a Korean article where more than 80% of grades awarded was above B or B+ (I will try to find an article alter). This is bizarre especially considering 80%(!!!) of HS graduates enroll in universities. In contrast, maybe ~40% of HS students in Canada enrol in univerity and the class average is set around C+/B-. There seems to be an understanding between universities and its students that once the students matriculate, they will be guaranteed a degree. What I said above certainly doesn't apply to all universities in SK, but SK universities in general are a total fail.
you know korean universities are bad when you look at how competitive korean students are in high school korea has HEAPS of universities, but they all suck so bad in comparison to "SKY" that, the SKY universities become the main target for the whole student body. sure there are "middle class" unis such as ewha, foreign uni, sungkyunkwan etc etc but they pale in comparison to SKY, making SKY the only realistic choice for a university if people wish to "succeed" and i can say from experience, korean universities, more specifically Korea university (one of SKY) is much more relaxed and easy than foreign unis such as USYD, UNSW etc if koreas university standards reflected the high school standards...korea would be insane at academics
Edit:holy shit i'm bad, wanted to post in the gsl aug lr. Regarding this subject: 16 hours a day is way too much, while i have to agree china and korea deliver some of the most intelligent students that have a great work ethic. I think a medium should be reached between too much pressure and too little. You can't really judge another culture.
Isn't it a paradox that Korean high school kids spend all day studying yet there are many pro gamers that are high school aged? How exactly are Koreans so good at Starcraft if so many have strict parents and arduous school schedules that don't allow them to play video games? Doesn't add up.
On September 09 2011 02:28 BlackJack wrote: Isn't it a paradox that Korean high school kids spend all day studying yet there are many pro gamers that are high school aged? How exactly are Koreans so good at Starcraft if so many have strict parents and arduous school schedules that don't allow them to play video games? Doesn't add up.
On August 28 2011 20:17 RinesOnRx wrote: Granted, SK's HS system has certainly has its problems, but I disagree that American system is any better. At least SK has something to show for with their HS students placing second in academic abilities after Finland. Although it sucks for South Korean students and their parents, education system that they have is necessary/ inevitable for SK to remain competetive globally. What SK lacks in natural resources, it has to make up through human resources. It's too bad that unlike their high schools, their universities are a total fail. I am very much interested in seeing this documentary, but I don't know how the film will achieve its goal of alleviating stress for Korean HS students.
Can you pls explain that a bit more, of course only if u don't mind because i' m really interested in this.
I don't have much time right now so this post will be brief. I will supplement it with more information with data/ articles afterwards. As posters mentioned above, Korean schools' rankings are mediocore at best. I think Seoul University is the only one that is in top 100, and Yonsei and Korea are in the top 200. This is dismal considering there are ~200 univeristies in Korean and its students are the ones who ranked second internationally in HS. However, this doesn't really bother me because universities' rankings are indicative of its research capabilities, which doesn't necessarily correlate with the quality of education received by its students. What really bothers me about Korean university is that many students don't take their studies seriously, nor are they required to do so by the university. Korean society is obsessed with the name of the school that you go to/ graduate from, hence why HS students go through such a rigourous competition. But once university starts, many students simply lose focus in their studies and their career goals. There was an article stating that while SK students have one of the highest acceptance rates into Harvard, they also have the highest drop out rates. Students are more interested in student hobby groups, nightlife, etc. instead of their academics. Honestly, the streets around universities in Seoul look like an entertainment district filled with restaurants, bars, etc. Grade inflation is ludicrous in Korea. I read a Korean article where more than 80% of grades awarded was above B or B+ (I will try to find an article alter). This is bizarre especially considering 80%(!!!) of HS graduates enroll in universities. In contrast, maybe ~40% of HS students in Canada enrol in univerity and the class average is set around C+/B-. There seems to be an understanding between universities and its students that once the students matriculate, they will be guaranteed a degree. What I said above certainly doesn't apply to all universities in SK, but SK universities in general are a total fail.
To add to what he said, University areas are awesome party places. It's like if you and your friends wanted to go clubbing and were like "Dude, lets go to Harvard."
On September 09 2011 02:28 BlackJack wrote: Isn't it a paradox that Korean high school kids spend all day studying yet there are many pro gamers that are high school aged? How exactly are Koreans so good at Starcraft if so many have strict parents and arduous school schedules that don't allow them to play video games? Doesn't add up.
The whole of the high school/starcraft relationship is that no one considers it (as) abnormal to focus on a certain study/aspect for 12 hours a day. So when people in america (or sc2. Yes, I'm talking to you, I'm-going-pro-blog) decide to "take a year off and focus on trying to go pro", they practice like 6 hours a day, everyday. No weekends, no holidays, no breaks. And people are like, man that's dedication, he really loves that game. In Korea, until you hit double digit hours of effort put in, no one takes a second glance.
On August 28 2011 14:59 Endymion wrote: I barely pay attention in class at university, and I stand to inherit more assets than I could possibly need, while they study for so long in a super high competitive environment. At least I'll be at the top of the bubble when it bursts, and all the hard working asian students will get what they truly deserve.
What does this even mean? You apparently aren't doing too well in university. That, or your university is pretty bad.
On August 28 2011 21:17 evilfatsh1t wrote: from a koreans point of view...im against the production of this video simply because itll inevitably show many bad things about korean society and its values but the truth is the truth and it has to be said T_T i just hope the director is as unbiased as possible and at least shows the good sides of korea too
id have a lot more peace of mind if she was older/had more experience though
On August 28 2011 15:41 RosaParksStoleMySeat wrote:
On August 28 2011 15:37 jidolboy wrote:
On August 28 2011 15:32 RosaParksStoleMySeat wrote:
On August 28 2011 15:28 jidolboy wrote:
On August 28 2011 15:07 Xplitcit wrote: This is probably why Korean are so good at starcraft. They play it with the same dedication as school. This is why you most Korean gamers have really bad grades in school, with the exception of OPTIMUS FUCKING PRIME. But yes, everything they do they put forward their effort and dedication. In America, you could be a good student and a progamer.... Too bad you suck compare to everyone else, but it's still acceptable.
can u provide us the source where you claimed most of us korean are idiot?
I don't think he was saying that most Koreans are idiots. I think he was saying that most Korean gamers don't do too well in school, probably because they don't care much about school. You are Korean... do you think this is true? Are great gamers bad in school? If it's anything like Japan they are.
I'm sure that the Korean gamers are the really smart ones actually, but they just don't apply themselves in school.
i meant to add gamers (oops) .i was bit ignorant and little bit pissed off how he posted shit without any proof
Oh no, I think you just misunderstood. In Western countries we believe that a lot of very smart people get poor grades in school for other reasons, but in East Asia (where I've spent the last four years), I've noticed that people are considered stupid for having poor grades. We think that very very smart people tend to have poor grades because classes don't interest them and they don't study much.
No "we" don't. I've never even heard of this, getting bad grades -> smart but lazy? That's like the #1 excuse someone will drop when getting a bad grade man :S
some might call it an excuse, but it is the truth in many cases i have a friend who was a straight A student up till year 10 but dropped in years 11 and 12 because he got hooked on dance and dota by the end of yr 12 his average grades were C- because he just didnt give a shit about education and you may argue that in the earlier stages of highschool you dont have to be smart to get good grades, but believe me. this guy was smart
That is the worst excuse for not doing well in school. There are many pro-gamers that attend school and are good at games. Why can't he dance, play dota and do well in school? Most people that succeed, gamers, athletes, etc worked hard to get a good education and went for their dreams/passions at the same time. Saying that you don't give a shit about your education and because of that your grade suffers is retarded. I doubt that 99.999999999% people actually care about school and like doing stuff like hw, but they do it anyways. If you look at it, who's really smarter. The guy giving up school to play dota and dance, or the people working hard for an education and playing dota and dancing.
University rankings is hardly indicative of quality of education. If anything, rankings are mostly for a school's prestige than anything else. Once you actually go to school it's more or less the same.
I found it very disturbing that they glue their eyes to have non Asian eyelid creases. I hope that that isn't super common in Korea, it's too bad if they feel like they have to do that to be beautiful.
Now I can see why so many Korean men choose the life of a pro gamer over all of that, the dedication of being a pro gamer is actually easier at 12 hours a day instead of 16, haha
I saw similar themes living in Japan for a year.. the same thing applies for college, I would see kids literally fall asleep face in textbook on the train at 10pm from studying all day.. then I'd go to class at uni and the students would sleep in class and not give a shit. It's all about getting to university. You'd see kids attending schools or cram schools 7 days a week.
A lot of students told me (I had to do a campus wide interview for class about job hunting pressures) that their grades don't actually matter at all, its all about where they graduate from.
A lot (high % number here) of Japanese female students would wake up at 4-5am after getting only a few hours sleep, not to study.. but to start their make up procedure. They'd cake that shit on with a trowel. I reckon they'd leave a perfect facial print if you attacked them with a towel. I didn't see any of the double eyelid thing, but they did shave their eyebrows within a millimetre of their lives.
China doesn't seem to hold this pressure from what I've seen, but Japan and Korea are very similar in this regard.
I'm a bit confused. At the end of the trailer the director posits a very modest vision for the film. But in the About the Film section, the purpose is stated is much more amibitious:
"So. What's life like for a Korean student? In one of the most competitive societies in the world, how does one find their place? What does it take to achieve your aspirations and goals? Our documentary will take a look at the lives of five Korean teenagers on the verge of either reaching- or losing- their dreams. The film will follow the students during the most stressful time of their lives- their last year of high school."
If I'm to go by the About the Film, which seems to be more comprehensive then I have some concerns about the film.
As a Korean American adoptee with an interest in Anthropology, this is a significant film for me but I have serious reservations about its presentation.
First, it seems to argue for a collective Korean high school experience. That in itself is slightly problematic as it confines a whole generation of individuals into a single, small box. But that aside, the director seems to make no mention of having visited any other school. So she appears to be using a very small group of individuals, within a single institution, to generalize about an entire population. Not much information is given on the site about the school itself but if we assume for a second (for the sake of the argument) that the school is a general upper middle class high school, then there's an enormous section of the larger Korean student population suddenly without a voice. Korea has multiple types of High schools, among them: Foreign Language, Science and Math, and Arts. So is the director trying to say that by looking at this specific high school, we, the audience, can somehow understand any Korean high school student from any background?
Seems a tad ambitious. Perhaps this particular school is special and representative of the larger population; but the trailer had no hint of that.
My other "beef" if you will with the film is the shallowness of it. I don't mean shallow in the material sense. It looks at some big issues. But it only looks at them. It's the difference between looking at the cover of a book and reading a book. I'm not saying it's impossible for the director to go deeper but in the 18minutes I sat watching the trailer, I was not convinced that was her intention.
To expand, by shallowness I'm basically referring to the idea of culture as an answer rather than a question. Why are these (particular) girls pre-occupied with looking white? The film seems to attribute this to "Korean culture" without giving any hint into unpacking that really complex idea. What does that actually mean? How is this idea of beauty constructed? Who is constructing it? Perhaps that seems a bit of stretch for a film like focused on a small group of individuals, but if we're only getting interviews from students, what are we really getting?
The reason I think Culture as an answer, or only looking at the cover of a book, is problematic is because Korea is turned into this oversimplified "other" that has all these social problems. If this is how the film indeed turns out, then I'm convinced it'll create new stereotypes among the audience or reinforce old ones rather than enhance the discussion about Korean social norms and practices.
Pheeew. Long winded. I may sound like I'm bashing on this film but I would like to see it succeed. However, just because it's a film about my birth country doesn't necessitate my immediate approval. This was not a 2 minute trailer where we just saw giant explosions and cheesy one-liners. This was 18 minutes. And in that 18 minutes, I was looking, the entire time, for some depth or at least acknowledgement of its absence. I saw none of it.
It certainly looks like a pretty film. And it has a strong topic: aspects of Korean society that are accessible enough to non-Koreans while still foreign enough to be compelling.
But if the film can't get past the shock-and-awe factor to provide some actual substance, then I doubt the film will be able to make any legitimate claims about Korean culture and Korean society.
On September 09 2011 13:06 Mtndrew wrote: i would think they would overview the different aspects of korean high school life in the trailer, then delve deeper in the actual movie...
Fair point and I certainly won't rule out that possibility. I'm sure I'll watch because I want to see how it turns out.
My concern though is that in 18 minutes, I was given no depth. I was given melo-drama. I was given a western-imposed view of beauty (the implication from the director and scenes in the trailer saying that from the obsession with double eye-lids was bad. aka. not inline with Western ideology). But I wasn't given any hint at depth or future depth. So if it had been 5 minutes or even 10 minutes I think I could accept that argument. But 18 minutes is a looong time.
Korean education is fucked up. Once you're in a university it's very easy, having been to one of the top ones in Seoul I can attest to that, but the high school test is crazy competitive, and from I've been told stupid as hell (it basically only tests your memory).
As soon as I have kids I need to get the hell out of Asia...
On September 09 2011 12:51 Gingerninja wrote: I saw similar themes living in Japan for a year.. the same thing applies for college, I would see kids literally fall asleep face in textbook on the train at 10pm from studying all day.. then I'd go to class at uni and the students would sleep in class and not give a shit. It's all about getting to university. You'd see kids attending schools or cram schools 7 days a week.
A lot of students told me (I had to do a campus wide interview for class about job hunting pressures) that their grades don't actually matter at all, its all about where they graduate from.
A lot (high % number here) of Japanese female students would wake up at 4-5am after getting only a few hours sleep, not to study.. but to start their make up procedure. They'd cake that shit on with a trowel. I reckon they'd leave a perfect facial print if you attacked them with a towel. I didn't see any of the double eyelid thing, but they did shave their eyebrows within a millimetre of their lives.
China doesn't seem to hold this pressure from what I've seen, but Japan and Korea are very similar in this regard.
China has a similarly rigorous education system.
Cram schools are common and the college entrance exam is treated as the single most important event of everyone's life.
Very few university students take their studies very seriously, a combination of "a degree from a name brand school gets you everywhere" and "weeee no parents"
In greece it is the same although we do not get into such situations because kids get prepared at expensive tutoring institutions instead of at school (i went to a private school so we did more but i still got extra lessons). we start having extra lessons from 14-15 and this goes on till the end of school, even for 1 month during the summer.
imo the exams are easy, but maybe thats because i have always been an excellent student so i never got anxious about anything, i just prepared like everyone else and aced it np. my friends-sister though were pressed a lot and failure is rly straining on your mentality these exams are practically the only way to get into an university in greece so they play a major part in your upbringing. also, university education is very important socially in greece, and in many sectors people with degrees from other countries are frowned upon (as long as they have entered a greek university as undergraduates they are fine though, and masters-doctoras are mostly from foreign universities anyway. ofc named universities are excluded like harvard mit etc) greece is also a very corrupt country so people sometimes find ways to get into the state universities by other means.
On the other hand, once u enter the university you are encouraged to go party and live the "student life" as we call it. there is no greek university that has compulsory attendance at class. only some have laboratories which you have to attend (but they take place like once a week for 2 months out of the semester in most cases) therefore, what the system encourages students to do is sit on their ass for 5 months then when the exam period starts study some and pass the test. even if you dont pass the test because lets face it you know nothing about the subject, there is no penaltynothing. you can take the exam every year 2 times (for each subject) and there is no limit to how many you can fail. there are thousands of students who go to university for years and years and have passed no subjects. meanwhile the government pays the cost of their studies. there is also no limit to how long you can be a student. there are 40y old people who entered when they were 18 and still havent finished. their classification as a student still stands.
i got caught up in this and as of now i have only passed half my classes and i attend the arguably hardest university in greece. so i have to repeat 20 classes (just give the exam no other prequisite for most of them, some need labs and reports that require work). i find myself doing nothing for 3 years and blaming the system. ofc it was me who got lazy after studying my whole life for the final nationwide exams, but having a really lenient system that doesnt inforce consistency and encourages eternal student status is bad.
as a final note, there are high school students in greece that go through drug addictions and mental breakdowns for no reward, although the degrees have great recognization for good universities.
also greece has a lot of young people who go to england-us to study and they can avoid all the system so thats a bonus for them. i had the means to go but preferred to stay home. silly me.
On August 29 2011 10:52 RinesOnRx wrote: What really bothers me about Korean university is that many students don't take their studies seriously, nor are they required to do so by the university. Korean society is obsessed with the name of the school that you go to/ graduate from, hence why HS students go through such a rigourous competition. But once university starts, many students simply lose focus in their studies and their career goals. There was an article stating that while SK students have one of the highest acceptance rates into Harvard, they also have the highest drop out rates. Students are more interested in student hobby groups, nightlife, etc. instead of their academics. Honestly, the streets around universities in Seoul look like an entertainment district filled with restaurants, bars, etc. Grade inflation is ludicrous in Korea. I read a Korean article where more than 80% of grades awarded was above B or B+ (I will try to find an article alter). This is bizarre especially considering 80%(!!!) of HS graduates enroll in universities. In contrast, maybe ~40% of HS students in Canada enrol in univerity and the class average is set around C+/B-. There seems to be an understanding between universities and its students that once the students matriculate, they will be guaranteed a degree. What I said above certainly doesn't apply to all universities in SK, but SK universities in general are a total fail.
I go to Korea University.
Professors are required not to give more than 35% of students an A or A plus and not more than another 35% a B or B plus. Grade inflation, certainly, but not quite as bad as 80% getting an A.
I feel like recently students slacking off and not doing anything in university is changing, though. In my years studying at KU, I have never once attended a class that didn't have attendance requirements, with typically anywhere from 3 to 8 absences resulting in automatic F's. Sure there are people sleeping in class here and there, but I don't commonly see more than two or three students sleeping at the back in any given class with class sizes between 40 and 70. In addition, I keep being told that to secure a decent job -- and by that I mean a job at Samsung or Hyundai or Kia, which is ultimately what most people at my business school are aiming at -- one should have a GPA of at least 3.7.
(This is not as hard as it may sound, because grades are given on a 4.5 scales, and as mentioned, grades are inflated, but the average GPA is still around 3.3 each semester, so to secure jobs, some level of competitiveness at the university level is now becoming necessary as it gets harder and harder to secure jobs and mere degrees are increasingly insufficient for job security even here).
Not to generalize, as this isn't always the case, but this is an issue with prestigious US universities as well... It's usually very competitive and difficult to get in, but once you are in, it gets a lot easier. Maybe not to the extent of Korean University, but this is not a strictly Korean phenomenon.
I read a very good article on the topic a few days that argued part of it was simply due to consumerism. When parents and students dish out anywhere from $15,000-50,000 (or even more?) per year for tuition at a prestigious private school, they expect nothing less than A's, and the professor's role changes from that of an educator to a service person.
when I was in Korea when I was a middle school student, the school finished at 4 pm..then I had hak-won [extra curricular tutoring schools] untill 11 pm. And on Wednesdays, we finished at 1:30am. True story.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/U5wgM.jpg)
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