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Republican nominations - Page 502

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Derez
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Netherlands6068 Posts
March 01 2012 18:04 GMT
#10021


Note the first few sentences:

It’s very easy to excite the base with incendiary comments. We’ve seen throughout the campaign if you’re willing to say really outrageous things that are accusative, attacking of President Obama, that you’re going to jump up in the polls. I’m not willing to light my hair on fire to try and get support. I am who I am.


How Romney really feels about parts of the republican base.
nam nam
Profile Joined June 2010
Sweden4672 Posts
March 01 2012 18:08 GMT
#10022
On March 02 2012 03:04 Derez wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=VDuA1yuQo6E#!

Note the first few sentences:

Show nested quote +
It’s very easy to excite the base with incendiary comments. We’ve seen throughout the campaign if you’re willing to say really outrageous things that are accusative, attacking of President Obama, that you’re going to jump up in the polls. I’m not willing to light my hair on fire to try and get support. I am who I am.


How Romney really feels about parts of the republican base.


Though having a president with a flaming head would be pretty awesome.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15689 Posts
March 01 2012 18:32 GMT
#10023
On March 02 2012 03:04 Derez wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=VDuA1yuQo6E#!

Note the first few sentences:

Show nested quote +
It’s very easy to excite the base with incendiary comments. We’ve seen throughout the campaign if you’re willing to say really outrageous things that are accusative, attacking of President Obama, that you’re going to jump up in the polls. I’m not willing to light my hair on fire to try and get support. I am who I am.


How Romney really feels about parts of the republican base.


Sounds like he's pretty certain that one way or another, he's gonna be the republican candidate. Now he's coming off as reasonable and level-headed to appeal to non-republicans.
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9385 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-01 18:59:55
March 01 2012 18:38 GMT
#10024
On March 01 2012 22:47 SerpentFlame wrote:
Edit; One solution to the economic crisis is to do exactly what FDR did in 1941, down to every crossed t and dotted i (except replacing bombers with bridges) It worked pretty well, regardless of what might theoretically work better.

This post is mainly in response to Hider and the Austrian Economics thought, so scroll straight through it if you're not interested. I spoilered a lot of it since its long and tangential to the thread's main point, and rambles a bit.
+ Show Spoiler +

What I get out of reading some Austrian economic pieces is that the central argument is that Federal Reserve policies caused the crisis, rather than that they exacerbated. The assertion seems to run that without the monetary and policy manipulation engineered by the Federal Reserve, there would have been no bubble. That this had a hand in the crisis I don't doubt. But the argument (from what I gather from a Thorton paper posted at the Mises institute) is that Depressions are caused by the federal reserve and policy problems, and can be solved by eliminating regulations and the federal reserve altogether. This ignores over a century of history in the American West, where booms and busts in the business cycle happened incredibly frequently, and government intervention was almost non-existant. The country still ran under a gold standard. The Austrian response seems to be that hey look, there were private banks in that era that expanded monetary supply too rapidly. But since the creation of the Federal Reserve (after the Great Depression disaster), the booms and busts have become more stable, not less. And who's supposed to do the capital financing, if not private banks in a gold-standard world, even in complete absence of a federal reserve? I could not find a convincing answer.

Another problem I have with the Austrian explanation is that there is no mention, anywhere, of the role that financial instruments played in creating the crisis, and that private markets engaged in a lot of destructive behavior. To understand the crisis, it's imperative, for instance, to understand the Black-Scholes equation that private market players and banks used to spread risk (which of course, ultimately imploded and took the economy down with the banks). This was exacerbated, of course, by Federal Reserve policies that created a balloon in the housing sector; but the financial industry's misuse of such tools was not caused by the government. The fundamental error was that banks simply did not believe the risks existed, regardless of US monetary policies; not that they thought the Fed's policies somehow negated all risk. That the bankers blindness to the downsides of these financial widgets caused the implosion is exactly what I've been told by traders from the hedge fund DE Shaw, at their presentation to a mathematics program that I worked at in 2011. Absent was any mention of the federal reserve; that's the scoop from inside the financial industry. This goes against the grain of the Austrian thesis, which is that private markets will always price and allocate perfectly absent government intervention, and I wasn't surprised to see an absence of discussion of this in Austrian circles.

Finally, I'm not really convinced about their predictions. Yes, I do suppose that some in the Austrian school (just like quite a few in the Keynesian belief) saw the housing crisis coming. But their recent predictions definitely predict inflation. "There Will Be (Hyper)Inflation", one title on the Mises institute reads, from April 2009. This is not the outlier; many other pieces echo the same sentiment. The Austrian economist Robert Murphy says more or less the same thing, and warns about hyperinflation from early 2009, right up to today. To these economists, it's "only a matter of time" before the "Genie is let out of the bottle". In 2009, he and other Austrian economists declared they wouldn't be surprised at "inflation running at double digits" by the end of the year. In fact, inflation was -1.4 percent. We are still waiting.

A final disbelief I have with the Austrian school is that they don't seem like looking at empirical evidence. No, i'm not talking about "Oh look, here's something that happened, let's draw conclusions as fast as possible", which is the kind of reasoning that seems to be emanating from their camp. Their dismissal of Keynesianism seems to be done in a highly slipshod manner, one that doesn't even try to account for a lot of the variables in play. This is the kind of reasoning that politicians do for a cheap political points, the kind that pundits do to advocate for action (yes, Krugman falls into this camp, but only in his blog and media pieces; his actual work is much more nuanced). It's not scientific at all, and that's what the profession sorely needs. The pieces that I'm seeing are not carefully calibrated (if any Austrian has one in written form, I'd love to see it) to account for multiple variables in their analysis, like Christina Romer's piece carefully attempts to do. Keep in mind that Romer started from a neutral point of view, and is carefully willing to consider herself wrong. It could just be I'm bad at searching and could not find the pieces that are out there; but I would love to see an Austrian piece attempt to do the same, in writing (I don't have audio on my computer, unfortunately). You want to look at depressions to compare to the modern one? Don't use 1921 or 1979. Those recessions had nothing to do with the housing and financial implosions we're seeing today. Try the Panic of 1897, caused by a housing collapse that had nothing to do with government or the federal reserve, in a country still on the gold standard, in which employment took nearly a decade to recover. Or the Great Depression, brought along by a deregulation of banking, moderated (or prolonged, it's unclear which without additional evidence) by the New Deal. Yet when you look at how countries around the world got out of the Depression, especially the United States or Nazi Germany, a clear pattern emerges; the more you spend, the faster you get out of the hole. Whether austerity would have healed the same wounds seems unclear at best, in absence of compelling empirical arguments; but huge government outlays worked pretty clearly, in the Second World War. If this is the benchmark to which we are comparing any government action, I'd be all ears for a solution.

There's a good body of evidence that pure capitalism will not always produce the best long-range outcomes (exactly not what the Austrian school declares). For one, "privatize privatize privatize" was the name of the game in 90s Russia. And look how well that turned out. Milton Friedman, a godfather of capitalism, declared in his dying breaths that liberal counterpart Joseph Stiglitz was right and that he was wrong; privatization did not cure Russia's maladies. Murphy, I see, is a fan of anarcho-capitalism; yet this is an inherently unstable equilibrium. Companies will inevitably grow to dominate their competition, and in so consolidate power around themselves. The enterpreneurial spirit and innovation that brought these companies to such great heights becomes no longer necessary to stay on top, when you can squeeze out opposing companies with other means. Look no farther than the trusts of the Gilded Age to see this (by the way, if the government did not exist, these companies would have taken on a power of their own equally as expansive).

So what errors of capitalism? Internalizing externalities is one. The "tragedy of the commons", Milton Friedman's famous thought experiment, is about making sure everything is priced. Pollution cannot be dumped on community grounds; it needs a price tag. Property rights need to be secured. Public goods, like gardens, need to price in the benefits to the community that it would bring; that, or else citizens would need to aggregate to pay their money for such goods (which is exactly government).
Another error is that capitalism will not fund basic research well. Yes, there are Ford's, Edisons, and Teslas who did end up making a living through the private market. But there are so many researchers who would have received about 0 private dollars. Who funded Werner Von Braun, Oppenheimer, Schroedinger, Pauling, Rutherberg, Einstein, Planck, Maxwell, or Watson and Crick? To have any incentive to fund such investment, investors would need a guarantee of intellectual property that comes out of the research, and to be able to hold it for years. This would be terrible, since in the meantime that basic research is denied to any other aspiring academics or theorists. Second of all, capitalism is notoriously bad at rebalancing 'power'. The ideal capitalist society supposes that workers, consumers, and companies all have relatively equal power. That is, when a company underpays for labor, workers can move to a different company; when an informed consumer doesn't like a good, it will switch to a better company. When a company charges too much for a product, another existing company can undercut the price, or a frustrated consumer can start a new company which will eventually do so, and win out in the long run over an existing company. The allocation based on market laws of supply and demand will, the reasoning goes, perfectly allocate the resources to where they need to be met.
This does not stack up empircally. Companies can outcompete others for reasons that have nothing to do with price quality. Firms that have gotten big by good decisions made by CEOs 70 years ago can squeeze out new competitors with schemes like "we'll match any price!" Monopolies and trusts inevitably aggregate power. Look no further than the Gilded Age for evidence of this. (Yes, I know the government was involved; but if it wasn't, what kind of realistic pathways would have stopped Carnegie's steel from taking over every small firm? There is none.)
Additionally, markets are good at allocating resources, but notoriously poor at balancing power, which is a lot of what government investment tends to do. For instance, building poor communities and raising children is something absolutely essential for society, yet a free market system will never invest in this, even absent child labor laws and government investment. In countries were child labor is legal, private markets have jumped on families and exploited htem mercilessly. Raising children adds value primarily to the individual, and thus is not measured or necessarily reclaimable in dollar amounts, making such investments unpalatable to private market creditors; hence the need for significant government spending. Even so, private creditors have the power behind them; private markets aren't exactly lining up to finance poor communities, and thus any creditor can charge with impunity, thus erasing any individual gains and giving them to the creditors and nearly them alone.
Third of all, there are pretty clear examples of government financed initiatives, in the face of recessions, that have done our country a lot of good. Who can argue that the Hoover Dam, the Apollo Project, or ARPAnet were not ahead of private investors at the time? The private market is not the engine of good ideas; it's the medium. A technocratic government can easily do a good job with finding good ideas and bringing them to prime time. The key is to have a solid mechanism that incentivizes government to do so.

So what do you do during a recession? The Austrian argument is to cut. Why aren't companies expanding? It's clear from all polling taken on them that demand doesn't exist. So the Austrian argument appears to be to let everything that is going to go under, go under (really, I couldn't find an Austrian source out there defending the bailouts). Now I don't doubt that this eventually leads to a recovery; anything will. We saw to a small extent what happened when the government decided to let Lehman fail. It led to a market implosion, that caused a 2,000 point fall in the Dow Jones. So how does the growth happen, and when? After Goldman, Bank of America, Citigroup, Chrysler, and General Motors go under? This is a colossal chain reaction, that depresses demand even further. And it's clear to anyone, from the mouths of the businesses themselves, that demand is what's holding the recovery back. Letting the financial firms go under leads to businesses unable to find capital for years, until another bank is ready to build itself up and take the old one's place. The shuttering of the auto industry would lead to a chain reaction shuttering factories, which would lay off workers, depress demand for goods further, shutter companies in related sectors, and soon you see the lights go off in an entire region, and workers, people, and firms having to start from bankrupcy and scratch. That's when the recovery, according to the Austrian school, starts. Compared to this, the results of an inadequate Obama stimulus look positively heartwarming. And I strongly doubt, and I'll put a lot of money on this, that the auto industry is in a bubble because of the bailouts (this is exactly what the Austrian school argues, by the way; that bailouts simply misallocate resources unsustainably, further).

I tried to be careful in my empirical reasoning: the main sources of my argument that government spending works to get us out of the depression is that huge, and I mean colossal, government outlays worked to get Germany and the United States out of Depression in the 30s. (Romer gives much more analysis in the above link). This is the benchmark advocates of other policies have to compete with; the proof is needed that private market austerity can get the government out of recessions caused by financial implosions faster. This austerity approach easily lacks the same empirical evidence; nothing points unequivocally to austerity working, anywhere, around the world. Sure this may be because nobody's tried it to the degree that is advocated. But that's especially a reason not to try it now, in the face of a large recession. Trying it at the local, state, or small country levels; fine. But in general, even when all the theory works out for say, brain surgery, you want to have tested it multiple times before applying it at any national scale; there may be unforseen pitfalls along the way, that no one has yet forseen.

The bottom line is that the Austrian argument takes us back to a system that we've had for hundreds of years; an era that did not stand out for any significant economic gains or lack of recessions or bubbles. Government spending has worked well; there's room for argument that other policies would have worked better, but that needs significant empirical proof, which should not be too hard given 100 years of American history that gives the Austrians everything they were looking for.


I appreaciate a lot that your willing to put a lot of throughts into your posts and that you have taken some time to read a few articles.

A lot of your post seem to be about the austrian business cycle. I fully understand how you get to the conclusion that austrians thinks boom-busts only appears because of a central bank. However thats not what we really think.
Austrians think that an increased money suply decreases the interest rate, which make money to cheap, and this creates malinvestments. However the increased money suply isn't nessacarily caused by the central bank. While austrians in genereal prefer the monetary system US had before 1913, it wasn't an austrian paradise (austrians define a lot of the historical "golds-standards as quasi-goldstandards). You claim that the boom/busts were bigger pre-1913, but where is the evidence (yeh I realise that will require a shitton of ressearch..)?

Most austrians prefer the following:
- Return to gold standard
- abolishment of central bank
- Definining fractional reserve banking as fraud

In that case austrians will argue that the boom-bust cycles that we have seen through history aren't going to be repeated at the same level.

Its not true that austrians don't look at the history or empirical data. You could read "americas great depression", "history of money" by Rothbard, and "The politically incorrect guide to american history" by Thomas Woods. But using empirical data to proof that simulis works/doesn't work is just an impossible task as I have previously argued (austrians interpret the data in a different way than keynesians).

Financial instruments was definitely a factor that I think prolonged the boom-period, as the markets had a more difficult time realising that the current boom wasn't sustainable. However they weren't the underlying problem. The problem was that the banks could get chese cheap money (out of nowhere) and use them to speculate. If fractional reserve banking is illegal and the money suply could not be expanded, then banks can't get these "easy money". They can only invest money that other people have saved. This creates a real balance that is sustaianble.
Why do you think banks and hedge funds has these trillions of money to invest for? Do you really think they would have these money if the money suply was constant?

Regarding your comments on capitalism, I feel they are a bit off(the current) topic. However I know that (my favourite economist) Murphy wrote a book called "The incorrect guide to capitalism", dealing with a lot of the "normal" critic of monopoly, tragedy of the common and other "myths". If you want to understand the opinion of the enemy, then I think the $ are well spent. I previsouly dealt with these topics like a 100 pages back, and it honestly gets a little tiring to repeat my self...

Regarding inflation I dont think its fair of you to critize the underlying analysis of whether inflation will happen, unless you can argue that banks will never lend out the money, or that FED can easily take the money out of the economy again.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
March 01 2012 18:44 GMT
#10025
the model for money, etc. is pretty simple... though of course its not perfect.

mv = py.

m is the money supply
v is the velocity of money (which is generally constant)
p is price level (aka the value of money, or inflation)
y is real gdp ("negative unemployment")

playing around with the variables shows how stuff works.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9385 Posts
March 01 2012 18:50 GMT
#10026
On March 02 2012 03:44 ticklishmusic wrote:
the model for money, etc. is pretty simple... though of course its not perfect.

mv = py.

m is the money supply
v is the velocity of money (which is generally constant)
p is price level (aka the value of money, or inflation)
y is real gdp ("negative unemployment")

playing around with the variables shows how stuff works.


Yes I think most people here in have taken macroeconomic classes.
But how do you measure the money suply in practice?
Derez
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Netherlands6068 Posts
March 01 2012 18:52 GMT
#10027
On March 02 2012 03:08 nam nam wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 02 2012 03:04 Derez wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=VDuA1yuQo6E#!

Note the first few sentences:

It’s very easy to excite the base with incendiary comments. We’ve seen throughout the campaign if you’re willing to say really outrageous things that are accusative, attacking of President Obama, that you’re going to jump up in the polls. I’m not willing to light my hair on fire to try and get support. I am who I am.


How Romney really feels about parts of the republican base.


Though having a president with a flaming head would be pretty awesome.

Clinton would have done it if the polls told him to ;p.
SerpentFlame
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
415 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-01 19:25:08
March 01 2012 19:23 GMT
#10028
On March 02 2012 03:38 Hider wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 01 2012 22:47 SerpentFlame wrote:
Edit; One solution to the economic crisis is to do exactly what FDR did in 1941, down to every crossed t and dotted i (except replacing bombers with bridges) It worked pretty well, regardless of what might theoretically work better.

This post is mainly in response to Hider and the Austrian Economics thought, so scroll straight through it if you're not interested. I spoilered a lot of it since its long and tangential to the thread's main point, and rambles a bit.
+ Show Spoiler +

What I get out of reading some Austrian economic pieces is that the central argument is that Federal Reserve policies caused the crisis, rather than that they exacerbated. The assertion seems to run that without the monetary and policy manipulation engineered by the Federal Reserve, there would have been no bubble. That this had a hand in the crisis I don't doubt. But the argument (from what I gather from a Thorton paper posted at the Mises institute) is that Depressions are caused by the federal reserve and policy problems, and can be solved by eliminating regulations and the federal reserve altogether. This ignores over a century of history in the American West, where booms and busts in the business cycle happened incredibly frequently, and government intervention was almost non-existant. The country still ran under a gold standard. The Austrian response seems to be that hey look, there were private banks in that era that expanded monetary supply too rapidly. But since the creation of the Federal Reserve (after the Great Depression disaster), the booms and busts have become more stable, not less. And who's supposed to do the capital financing, if not private banks in a gold-standard world, even in complete absence of a federal reserve? I could not find a convincing answer.

Another problem I have with the Austrian explanation is that there is no mention, anywhere, of the role that financial instruments played in creating the crisis, and that private markets engaged in a lot of destructive behavior. To understand the crisis, it's imperative, for instance, to understand the Black-Scholes equation that private market players and banks used to spread risk (which of course, ultimately imploded and took the economy down with the banks). This was exacerbated, of course, by Federal Reserve policies that created a balloon in the housing sector; but the financial industry's misuse of such tools was not caused by the government. The fundamental error was that banks simply did not believe the risks existed, regardless of US monetary policies; not that they thought the Fed's policies somehow negated all risk. That the bankers blindness to the downsides of these financial widgets caused the implosion is exactly what I've been told by traders from the hedge fund DE Shaw, at their presentation to a mathematics program that I worked at in 2011. Absent was any mention of the federal reserve; that's the scoop from inside the financial industry. This goes against the grain of the Austrian thesis, which is that private markets will always price and allocate perfectly absent government intervention, and I wasn't surprised to see an absence of discussion of this in Austrian circles.

Finally, I'm not really convinced about their predictions. Yes, I do suppose that some in the Austrian school (just like quite a few in the Keynesian belief) saw the housing crisis coming. But their recent predictions definitely predict inflation. "There Will Be (Hyper)Inflation", one title on the Mises institute reads, from April 2009. This is not the outlier; many other pieces echo the same sentiment. The Austrian economist Robert Murphy says more or less the same thing, and warns about hyperinflation from early 2009, right up to today. To these economists, it's "only a matter of time" before the "Genie is let out of the bottle". In 2009, he and other Austrian economists declared they wouldn't be surprised at "inflation running at double digits" by the end of the year. In fact, inflation was -1.4 percent. We are still waiting.

A final disbelief I have with the Austrian school is that they don't seem like looking at empirical evidence. No, i'm not talking about "Oh look, here's something that happened, let's draw conclusions as fast as possible", which is the kind of reasoning that seems to be emanating from their camp. Their dismissal of Keynesianism seems to be done in a highly slipshod manner, one that doesn't even try to account for a lot of the variables in play. This is the kind of reasoning that politicians do for a cheap political points, the kind that pundits do to advocate for action (yes, Krugman falls into this camp, but only in his blog and media pieces; his actual work is much more nuanced). It's not scientific at all, and that's what the profession sorely needs. The pieces that I'm seeing are not carefully calibrated (if any Austrian has one in written form, I'd love to see it) to account for multiple variables in their analysis, like Christina Romer's piece carefully attempts to do. Keep in mind that Romer started from a neutral point of view, and is carefully willing to consider herself wrong. It could just be I'm bad at searching and could not find the pieces that are out there; but I would love to see an Austrian piece attempt to do the same, in writing (I don't have audio on my computer, unfortunately). You want to look at depressions to compare to the modern one? Don't use 1921 or 1979. Those recessions had nothing to do with the housing and financial implosions we're seeing today. Try the Panic of 1897, caused by a housing collapse that had nothing to do with government or the federal reserve, in a country still on the gold standard, in which employment took nearly a decade to recover. Or the Great Depression, brought along by a deregulation of banking, moderated (or prolonged, it's unclear which without additional evidence) by the New Deal. Yet when you look at how countries around the world got out of the Depression, especially the United States or Nazi Germany, a clear pattern emerges; the more you spend, the faster you get out of the hole. Whether austerity would have healed the same wounds seems unclear at best, in absence of compelling empirical arguments; but huge government outlays worked pretty clearly, in the Second World War. If this is the benchmark to which we are comparing any government action, I'd be all ears for a solution.

There's a good body of evidence that pure capitalism will not always produce the best long-range outcomes (exactly not what the Austrian school declares). For one, "privatize privatize privatize" was the name of the game in 90s Russia. And look how well that turned out. Milton Friedman, a godfather of capitalism, declared in his dying breaths that liberal counterpart Joseph Stiglitz was right and that he was wrong; privatization did not cure Russia's maladies. Murphy, I see, is a fan of anarcho-capitalism; yet this is an inherently unstable equilibrium. Companies will inevitably grow to dominate their competition, and in so consolidate power around themselves. The enterpreneurial spirit and innovation that brought these companies to such great heights becomes no longer necessary to stay on top, when you can squeeze out opposing companies with other means. Look no farther than the trusts of the Gilded Age to see this (by the way, if the government did not exist, these companies would have taken on a power of their own equally as expansive).

So what errors of capitalism? Internalizing externalities is one. The "tragedy of the commons", Milton Friedman's famous thought experiment, is about making sure everything is priced. Pollution cannot be dumped on community grounds; it needs a price tag. Property rights need to be secured. Public goods, like gardens, need to price in the benefits to the community that it would bring; that, or else citizens would need to aggregate to pay their money for such goods (which is exactly government).
Another error is that capitalism will not fund basic research well. Yes, there are Ford's, Edisons, and Teslas who did end up making a living through the private market. But there are so many researchers who would have received about 0 private dollars. Who funded Werner Von Braun, Oppenheimer, Schroedinger, Pauling, Rutherberg, Einstein, Planck, Maxwell, or Watson and Crick? To have any incentive to fund such investment, investors would need a guarantee of intellectual property that comes out of the research, and to be able to hold it for years. This would be terrible, since in the meantime that basic research is denied to any other aspiring academics or theorists. Second of all, capitalism is notoriously bad at rebalancing 'power'. The ideal capitalist society supposes that workers, consumers, and companies all have relatively equal power. That is, when a company underpays for labor, workers can move to a different company; when an informed consumer doesn't like a good, it will switch to a better company. When a company charges too much for a product, another existing company can undercut the price, or a frustrated consumer can start a new company which will eventually do so, and win out in the long run over an existing company. The allocation based on market laws of supply and demand will, the reasoning goes, perfectly allocate the resources to where they need to be met.
This does not stack up empircally. Companies can outcompete others for reasons that have nothing to do with price quality. Firms that have gotten big by good decisions made by CEOs 70 years ago can squeeze out new competitors with schemes like "we'll match any price!" Monopolies and trusts inevitably aggregate power. Look no further than the Gilded Age for evidence of this. (Yes, I know the government was involved; but if it wasn't, what kind of realistic pathways would have stopped Carnegie's steel from taking over every small firm? There is none.)
Additionally, markets are good at allocating resources, but notoriously poor at balancing power, which is a lot of what government investment tends to do. For instance, building poor communities and raising children is something absolutely essential for society, yet a free market system will never invest in this, even absent child labor laws and government investment. In countries were child labor is legal, private markets have jumped on families and exploited htem mercilessly. Raising children adds value primarily to the individual, and thus is not measured or necessarily reclaimable in dollar amounts, making such investments unpalatable to private market creditors; hence the need for significant government spending. Even so, private creditors have the power behind them; private markets aren't exactly lining up to finance poor communities, and thus any creditor can charge with impunity, thus erasing any individual gains and giving them to the creditors and nearly them alone.
Third of all, there are pretty clear examples of government financed initiatives, in the face of recessions, that have done our country a lot of good. Who can argue that the Hoover Dam, the Apollo Project, or ARPAnet were not ahead of private investors at the time? The private market is not the engine of good ideas; it's the medium. A technocratic government can easily do a good job with finding good ideas and bringing them to prime time. The key is to have a solid mechanism that incentivizes government to do so.

So what do you do during a recession? The Austrian argument is to cut. Why aren't companies expanding? It's clear from all polling taken on them that demand doesn't exist. So the Austrian argument appears to be to let everything that is going to go under, go under (really, I couldn't find an Austrian source out there defending the bailouts). Now I don't doubt that this eventually leads to a recovery; anything will. We saw to a small extent what happened when the government decided to let Lehman fail. It led to a market implosion, that caused a 2,000 point fall in the Dow Jones. So how does the growth happen, and when? After Goldman, Bank of America, Citigroup, Chrysler, and General Motors go under? This is a colossal chain reaction, that depresses demand even further. And it's clear to anyone, from the mouths of the businesses themselves, that demand is what's holding the recovery back. Letting the financial firms go under leads to businesses unable to find capital for years, until another bank is ready to build itself up and take the old one's place. The shuttering of the auto industry would lead to a chain reaction shuttering factories, which would lay off workers, depress demand for goods further, shutter companies in related sectors, and soon you see the lights go off in an entire region, and workers, people, and firms having to start from bankrupcy and scratch. That's when the recovery, according to the Austrian school, starts. Compared to this, the results of an inadequate Obama stimulus look positively heartwarming. And I strongly doubt, and I'll put a lot of money on this, that the auto industry is in a bubble because of the bailouts (this is exactly what the Austrian school argues, by the way; that bailouts simply misallocate resources unsustainably, further).

I tried to be careful in my empirical reasoning: the main sources of my argument that government spending works to get us out of the depression is that huge, and I mean colossal, government outlays worked to get Germany and the United States out of Depression in the 30s. (Romer gives much more analysis in the above link). This is the benchmark advocates of other policies have to compete with; the proof is needed that private market austerity can get the government out of recessions caused by financial implosions faster. This austerity approach easily lacks the same empirical evidence; nothing points unequivocally to austerity working, anywhere, around the world. Sure this may be because nobody's tried it to the degree that is advocated. But that's especially a reason not to try it now, in the face of a large recession. Trying it at the local, state, or small country levels; fine. But in general, even when all the theory works out for say, brain surgery, you want to have tested it multiple times before applying it at any national scale; there may be unforseen pitfalls along the way, that no one has yet forseen.

The bottom line is that the Austrian argument takes us back to a system that we've had for hundreds of years; an era that did not stand out for any significant economic gains or lack of recessions or bubbles. Government spending has worked well; there's room for argument that other policies would have worked better, but that needs significant empirical proof, which should not be too hard given 100 years of American history that gives the Austrians everything they were looking for.


I appreaciate a lot that your willing to put a lot of throughts into your posts and that you have taken some time to read a few articles.

A lot of your post seem to be about the austrian business cycle. I fully understand how you get to the conclusion that austrians thinks boom-busts only appears because of a central bank. However thats not what we really think.
Austrians think that an increased money suply decreases the interest rate, which make money to cheap, and this creates malinvestments. However the increased money suply isn't nessacarily caused by the central bank. While austrians in genereal prefer the monetary system US had before 1913, it wasn't an austrian paradise (austrians define a lot of the historical "golds-standards as quasi-goldstandards). You claim that the boom/busts were bigger pre-1913, but where is the evidence (yeh I realise that will require a shitton of ressearch..)?

Spoilered reply.
+ Show Spoiler +
You'd at least expect significant evidence that the economy was better back then, even if it wasn't exactly what the Austrian doctor asked for. You'd have to provide some evidence that things were better then, even as I'll give you plenty of events that tell you things were not. (I'm not arguing that things were significantly worse back then; but merely that the great effect of austerity did not show up. Comp/are the free banking era with the post-war era in 1945-1980 when Keynesianism dominated economic discourse, and it's not very clear that the free-banking era produced many benefits at all) .The boom/bust cycle was still in full force (Panic of 1893, Panic of 1907 (admittedly this was in part caused by Great Britain).
Again, I have no doubt the federal reserve helped inflate the modern bubble. What I do doubt is that hard money and austerity is going to create a great recovery, (whether these are good during regular times I won't argue) and definitely not at a faster rate than Germany and the US did in the war years. Why not try something that we know works first? Or how about some evidence that we're going to get the kind of rapid recovery Germany and the US did in the war before we try and make that part of the discourse?




How Romney really feels about parts of the republican base.

If what Romney says reflects how he actually feels, he's got some incredibly malleable character.
I Wannabe[WHITE], the very BeSt[HyO], like Yo Hwan EVER Oz.......
TranceStorm
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
1616 Posts
March 01 2012 19:52 GMT
#10029
On March 02 2012 03:50 Hider wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 02 2012 03:44 ticklishmusic wrote:
the model for money, etc. is pretty simple... though of course its not perfect.

mv = py.

m is the money supply
v is the velocity of money (which is generally constant)
p is price level (aka the value of money, or inflation)
y is real gdp ("negative unemployment")

playing around with the variables shows how stuff works.


Yes I think most people here in have taken macroeconomic classes.
But how do you measure the money suply in practice?

Well economists try to measure money supply all the time! They come up with all these models that come up with differing conclusions...
At the end of the day nobody has a true solution to our economic issues (whoever says they have a cast-iron solution is deluded) since we can't come up with a perfect model. In my opinion, the best solution is to let the fed tinker around as they have been doing, eventually the economy will recover (although it will be slow). Of course, this doesn't make for very good election promises though...
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9385 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-01 20:05:59
March 01 2012 20:05 GMT
#10030
On March 02 2012 04:52 TranceStorm wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 02 2012 03:50 Hider wrote:
On March 02 2012 03:44 ticklishmusic wrote:
the model for money, etc. is pretty simple... though of course its not perfect.

mv = py.

m is the money supply
v is the velocity of money (which is generally constant)
p is price level (aka the value of money, or inflation)
y is real gdp ("negative unemployment")

playing around with the variables shows how stuff works.


Yes I think most people here in have taken macroeconomic classes.
But how do you measure the money suply in practice?

Well economists try to measure money supply all the time! They come up with all these models that come up with differing conclusions...
At the end of the day nobody has a true solution to our economic issues (whoever says they have a cast-iron solution is deluded) since we can't come up with a perfect model. In my opinion, the best solution is to let the fed tinker around as they have been doing, eventually the economy will recover (although it will be slow). Of course, this doesn't make for very good election promises though...


Agree except the FED part . (kinda like the TMS for calculating money suply, but im sure it doesn't exactly fit in with the MV = PY formula).
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 01 2012 21:23 GMT
#10031
The Santorum campaign is beside themselves after the Michigan GOP decided to award two at-large delegates to Mitt Romney instead of splitting the two proportionally and awarding one to each candidate.

"There’s just no way this is happening," Santorum spokesman Hogan Gidley said in an e-mail. "We’ve all heard rumors that Mitt Romney was furious that he spent a fortune in his home state, had all the political establishment connections and could only tie Rick Santorum. But we never thought the Romney campaign would try to rig the outcome of an election by changing the rules after the vote. This kind of backroom dealing political thuggery just cannot and should not happen in America."

The state party appeared to change the rules on Thursday to favor Romney, but RNC committeeman Saul Anuzis, a prominent Romney supporter, said the delegates would always be awarded to the overall winnder and blamed the confusion on a circulated memo that mistakenly suggested they would be awarded proportionally.

Romney spokeswoman Andrea Saul responded to TPM in an e-mail that they won fair and square and attacked Santorum for using robo-calls to court Democrats in the primary.

“Rick Santorum encouraged Democrats in Michigan to hijack the Republican Primary," she wrote. "Because his strategy failed and Mitt Romney won, he is now attacking the Republican Party. The Romney campaign respects the process as determined by the Michigan state party, and we are pleased that we have been awarded a majority of the delegates. We are now focused on the upcoming contests."


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 01 2012 22:27 GMT
#10032
Seems like Romney has pissed off both sides of the isle with his Blunt Amendment flip flop.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Probulous
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Australia3894 Posts
March 01 2012 22:38 GMT
#10033
I wish people would read the thread before bring up "new" topics to debate. The healthcare and economics stuff has been done to death so many times. Give it a rest.

Back on topic, is there ever a week in this nomination process that doesn't have Romney chewing on his toes; Santorum screaming blue murder and raging from the pulpit; Gingritch being his slimey slimey self and Paul not being listend to? You couldn't write this stuff if you wanted to.
"Dude has some really interesting midgame switches that I wouldn't have expected. "I violated your house" into "HIHO THE DAIRY OH!" really threw me. You don't usually expect children's poetry harass as a follow up " - AmericanUmlaut
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 02 2012 00:21 GMT
#10034


"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
March 02 2012 02:19 GMT
#10035
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/01/10552338-limbaugh-contraception-advocate-should-post-online-sex-videos

oh rush.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 02 2012 02:58 GMT
#10036
The Birthers are back, and Republicans are not giving up on Birth Control, now this:

When Mitt Romney unveiled his revised tax and debt plan last week, his camp sold it as a bid to preserve fairness to the middle class.

He proposed an across the board 20 percent cut to everybody’s current rates, and to make up the lost revenue by limiting deductions, credits and other tax benefits for wealthy Americans. But he declined to specify exactly how he’d broaden the tax base. And a new analysis by the Tax Policy Center shows that without those details, his proposed cuts would actually be more regressive than his first plan.

Compared to the original proposal, the new one — or at least the pieces of it Romney’s specified — would actually lower taxes further on the wealthy, while slightly raising them on the poor. If Romney does ultimately specify which popular tax benefits he plans to eliminate, it’ll have to be a long list. According to TPC, “in the absence of such base broadening…the Romney plan would lower federal tax liability by about $900 billion in calendar year 2015 compared with current law, roughly a 24 percent cut in total projected revenue. Relative to a current policy baseline, the reduction in liability would be about $480 billion in calendar year 2015.”


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
March 02 2012 03:18 GMT
#10037
On March 02 2012 11:19 ticklishmusic wrote:
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/01/10552338-limbaugh-contraception-advocate-should-post-online-sex-videos

oh rush.

Rush's commentary on this is genius. How can people not appreciate how colossally stupid that Georgetown law student's testimony was?
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 02 2012 03:30 GMT
#10038
On March 02 2012 12:18 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 02 2012 11:19 ticklishmusic wrote:
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/01/10552338-limbaugh-contraception-advocate-should-post-online-sex-videos

oh rush.

Rush's commentary on this is genius. How can people not appreciate how colossally stupid that Georgetown law student's testimony was?


You have got to be kidding me, you honestly believe that Employers should be able to dictate if women can/should receive contraception through their insurance?!
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15689 Posts
March 02 2012 03:35 GMT
#10039
On March 02 2012 12:30 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 02 2012 12:18 xDaunt wrote:
On March 02 2012 11:19 ticklishmusic wrote:
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/01/10552338-limbaugh-contraception-advocate-should-post-online-sex-videos

oh rush.

Rush's commentary on this is genius. How can people not appreciate how colossally stupid that Georgetown law student's testimony was?


You have got to be kidding me, you honestly believe that Employers should be able to dictate if women can/should receive contraception through their insurance?!


If you read more of xDaunt's post, it wouldn't be so surprising x__x lol
sc2superfan101
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
3583 Posts
March 02 2012 03:45 GMT
#10040
On March 02 2012 12:30 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 02 2012 12:18 xDaunt wrote:
On March 02 2012 11:19 ticklishmusic wrote:
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/01/10552338-limbaugh-contraception-advocate-should-post-online-sex-videos

oh rush.

Rush's commentary on this is genius. How can people not appreciate how colossally stupid that Georgetown law student's testimony was?


You have got to be kidding me, you honestly believe that Employers should be able to dictate if women can/should receive contraception through their insurance?!

i certainly don't believe that the government has the right to force insurance companies to offer it.
My fake plants died because I did not pretend to water them.
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