On March 01 2012 11:53 Focuspants wrote: The statement "the private sector is ALWAYS going to provide a better service at a lower cost" is inherently false. Look at your medical and health care system. Its a failure for anyone that isnt rich. Certain things, such as healthcare, should be run by the government, with 2 goals in mind, first being providing good care for EVERYONE, and second operating cost effectively (NOT FOR PROFIT). I think government and the private sector are both needed, and both are better at different things. Its not a black and white issue.
Our healthcare system isn't run by a free market.
Operating cost effectively, and "run by the government" are basically mutually exclusive, while being "for profit" and operating cost effectively aren't.
Being run by government doesn't automatically force the activity to be any more or less "efficient" than the private sector. The biggest difference between the two being that one has such a huge backing in the form of alternative income. This can cause poor investment decisions that would normally make a company less competitive or bankrupt it outright. Beyond that, however, there is nothing inherent in government that would make it any less ideal than private sector. Profit incentive is still there, as are many proper levels of compensation. Much of the groundbreaking research happens in public university labs anyways, and is only refined in private corporation labs.
Actually, the profit incentive for government programs is quite poor. Government programs face two primary problems: ambiguous profit measurement and poor feedback loop. For business, money measures success/failure; for most government programs it's not so clear (student passing rate? life expectancy? commuters transported?). Most government programs are initiated with specific program criteria goals, but these are rarely updated and the people who draft the goals are not experts (politicians, who are mostly lawyers). The second problem is that it has a poor feedback loop. If a business does poorly, consumers reflect that in their purchases (which is instantaneous and usually well informed). If a government program does poorly, consumers reflect that through voting. Voting is not instantaneous, nor are voters usually well informed. Not to mention that most elections have poor voter turnout and most voters rarely vote on just a singular issue.
Stopped reading at the bolded part. Noone in their right mind thinks that in the current system you have a well informed public. What are the trillions spent on advertising and PR + Show Spoiler +
hell throw any network television program filling slots between adds into the equasion as well, they are there to persuade you to watch the ads after all.
for if not for adding value where none exists?
It may not be well informed to you, but it is to the person buying it. A person needs only to be well informed enough to know that buying a product will make them happy. Why do you think people buy Apple products? How many people do you know regret buying Apple products? It may be a poorly informed decision to you, but to them, it was informed. They got utility out of it, and they are happy with it.
I make no judgement of weather any single purchase is "well informed" or not. What I'm saying is that the purpose of constantly present advertising is to add value where there was none before. Create it out of thin air so that people buy that thing paying more than they would have had they been allowed a choice unburdened by a deluge of images designed to associate everyday objects with things like lust, love, power and status. In and of itself that's a pretty good definition of "poorly informed".
Also... Do you work for apple?
By the "logic" you demonstrated here
Yet advertising makes the market more efficient by promoting goods that people otherwise might not know about, yet still desire. (Despite all it's evils). If it wasn't profitable, nobody would do it.
On March 01 2012 15:49 Meta wrote: I don't understand why people think health care should be market driven. If it were completely market driven, medical companies wouldn't have enough incentive to cure diseases. They'd have way more incentive to create expensive medicine that lowers the symptoms that you have to keep buying in order to stay "healthy".
That's why the US health care system is so perverted. It's really fucked up.
Competition.
If you only treat a cold and your competitor finds a way to cure it, not only is he going to make a killing, you're going to lose all your customers.
Yea cause all the oil companies are jumping at the idea of lowering prices below their competitors!!! The pharm. industry operates much the same way. The big companies are so big, there is no chance of competition. Its easier to just work with the company you would be competing with to maintain high prices, since medication, much like gasoline, is essential.
This business practice is supposed to be illegal, but its clear that doesnt mean anything as theyve been doing it for ages. Your trust in corporations is too great.
Those are bad comparaisons for several reasons
Gas: Doesn't work because they DO adjust prices based on the market. If they didn't they'd violate the Shermann Anti Trust Act and get in trouble.
Medication: Patents give strong protections to IP. There isn't competition because the law says there can't be (and with the cost of developing these new drugs, there is good reason to keep these rules in place). However, once something hits "generic", damned if you don't see a blitz on who can make it for cheaper.
On March 01 2012 14:36 DoubleReed wrote: You know, all this talk how economics makes me ask a simple question: What's the point?
I mean, what's the point of having such a powerful economy? It seems like all we're using it for is make our economy even more powerful. I don't think that's right.
Personally, I'm starting to think a serious issue with our economy is that we don't have any actual goals with it. We aren't actively saying what we want this strong economy to do. We just say we want jobs and money and such.
I think when the Romans and various civilizations used their economy to fund military expeditions, that made sense. Sure, military spending seems like kind of a waste of money, but come on, at least they were using their economy. They had a goal. In the Cold War we were fighting the Soviets and we actually used our economy to build giant useless weaponry. And it worked. I mean, all I hear about in these economic talks is how to solve the problems right now. This isn't how things are run. You have to think long term. What do we want?
So as a modern democracy we can't just be warlike. That's not really sensible. But let's be open about what we want our economy to do. Do we want to be able to have better medicine and healthcare? Maybe we could use our economy to actually fund our medical expenses. Maybe we go further into space. Maybe we develop artificial intelligence. Maybe we actively promote human rights across the globe. Maybe we push artistic endeavors to new heights and scopes.
What's the point of being a superpower when our standard of living isn't the highest? What is the bloody point of having such a powerful economy if we aren't going to care about how we use it?
We live in a global economy, so we do well to be comparatively better than other nations. Sure, we can blow our money on social security and healthcare, but for every % in GDP we lose because of it, other countries will be catching up in economic power (and relative standard of living). Over the long term, this isn't a sustainable model as eventually, you are no longer a super power. The EU is facing this to a certain degree right now over the last 50-100 years. China had this problem during the latter half of the Qing dynasty.
I don't know where you got your information, but Qing China's economic woes came from
1) Opium... causing massive silver outflow and disabling able bodied men.
2) Funds given to appease foreign powers repeatedly since the Opium Wars
3) Taiping rebellions, one of the bloodiest wars of all time, causing massive economic damage.
I have no idea why you linked the Qing along with the social programs woes, Qing China had no such things. Ironically, the great economic boom in the 18th century enjoyed direct government investment and regulations.
On March 01 2012 11:53 Focuspants wrote: The statement "the private sector is ALWAYS going to provide a better service at a lower cost" is inherently false. Look at your medical and health care system. Its a failure for anyone that isnt rich. Certain things, such as healthcare, should be run by the government, with 2 goals in mind, first being providing good care for EVERYONE, and second operating cost effectively (NOT FOR PROFIT). I think government and the private sector are both needed, and both are better at different things. Its not a black and white issue.
Our healthcare system isn't run by a free market.
Operating cost effectively, and "run by the government" are basically mutually exclusive, while being "for profit" and operating cost effectively aren't.
Being run by government doesn't automatically force the activity to be any more or less "efficient" than the private sector. The biggest difference between the two being that one has such a huge backing in the form of alternative income. This can cause poor investment decisions that would normally make a company less competitive or bankrupt it outright. Beyond that, however, there is nothing inherent in government that would make it any less ideal than private sector. Profit incentive is still there, as are many proper levels of compensation. Much of the groundbreaking research happens in public university labs anyways, and is only refined in private corporation labs.
Actually, the profit incentive for government programs is quite poor. Government programs face two primary problems: ambiguous profit measurement and poor feedback loop. For business, money measures success/failure; for most government programs it's not so clear (student passing rate? life expectancy? commuters transported?). Most government programs are initiated with specific program criteria goals, but these are rarely updated and the people who draft the goals are not experts (politicians, who are mostly lawyers). The second problem is that it has a poor feedback loop. If a business does poorly, consumers reflect that in their purchases (which is instantaneous and usually well informed). If a government program does poorly, consumers reflect that through voting. Voting is not instantaneous, nor are voters usually well informed. Not to mention that most elections have poor voter turnout and most voters rarely vote on just a singular issue.
Stopped reading at the bolded part. Noone in their right mind thinks that in the current system you have a well informed public. What are the trillions spent on advertising and PR + Show Spoiler +
hell throw any network television program filling slots between adds into the equasion as well, they are there to persuade you to watch the ads after all.
for if not for adding value where none exists?
It may not be well informed to you, but it is to the person buying it. A person needs only to be well informed enough to know that buying a product will make them happy. Why do you think people buy Apple products? How many people do you know regret buying Apple products? It may be a poorly informed decision to you, but to them, it was informed. They got utility out of it, and they are happy with it.
I make no judgement of weather any single purchase is "well informed" or not. What I'm saying is that the purpose of constantly present advertising is to add value where there was none before. Create it out of thin air so that people buy that thing paying more than they would have had they been allowed a choice unburdened by a deluge of images designed to associate everyday objects with things like lust, love, power and status. In and of itself that's a pretty good definition of "poorly informed".
Also... Do you work for apple?
By the "logic" you demonstrated here
Yet advertising makes the market more efficient by promoting goods that people otherwise might not know about, yet still desire. (Despite all it's evils). If it wasn't profitable, nobody would do it.
Informing people of a product which they didnt know about before is an undoubted part of what advertising does. Buy tin openers here for example. It does other things though like assosiate tin openers with a sense of self worth. I agree with your second point.
On March 01 2012 16:31 BluePanther wrote: Medication: Patents give strong protections to IP. There isn't competition because the law says there can't be (and with the cost of developing these new drugs, there is good reason to keep these rules in place). However, once something hits "generic", damned if you don't see a blitz on who can make it for cheaper.
This reminded me of this story about patent holding drug producers. They make arrangements with the makers of generic drugs when their patents are expiring to not produce their product. As a result consumers aren't able to purchase generic drugs, which are normally about 80-90% cheaper than name brand medication. The generic drug makers get a percentage for doing nothing, the patent holders keep bringing in larger than expected profits for years, and the consumers get screwed.
On February 29 2012 08:32 EternaLLegacy wrote: [quote]
No. No. No.
Stop spreading this nonsense.
WWII did NOT bring us out of the Depression. Standard of living FELL DRAMATICALLY in WWII. People had to ration. Millions of Americans were drafted into the armed forces against their will. We had what amounts to slave labor for the government!
What did bring us out of the Depression was the around 2/3rds cut in government spending after the war. All our troops came home, and all that capital finally became available again in the market for investment into new projects, which employed all the unemployed people.
All the non-Austrians at the time were panicking and thought we'd plunge into an even worse recession in 1946. It turns out it was one of the biggest growth years in the history of the US.
Cutting government spending produces prosperity.
I don't think you've taken a basic macroeconomics class. Or if you have, you either didn't pay attention or you had a godawful teacher.
Cutting Government spending will not stimulate the economy. Ever. It can lower deficits, yes, but it will NOT create jobs and it will NOT magically give the American people more money. Cutting Taxes, on the other hand, can, but you're arguing that the 2/3rds cut in government spending brought us out of the great depression, which is absolutely ridiculous. By the end of WWII, we were already well out of the Great Depression. And it was Keynesian policy that dominated after WWII up until the 70s.
I feel so sorry for you. Deficits are future taxes. Cutting spending allows taxes to go down permanently. Cutting taxes only increases future taxes. Cutting spending is the only way to actually return money to the private sector in the long run. You Keynesians are only concerned about getting through the next election cycle which is why the politicians love you, but you have no clue how the economy works.
And by cutting spending you impair essential services like Social Security, road construction, education, defense etc... The private sector can't handle everything well. If the private sector had total control over education, for example, there wouldn't be anywhere near as many educated people. If you cut government spending, you might pay less taxes, sure, but you'll be paying the same money to the private sector(unless you cut something like defense, which is something that I think should be cut) instead for essential services, and chances are the private sector will charge more. A business has one goal: to make money. Taxes might go down, but you'll still be paying just as much, if not more.
I think this is a discussion about whether stimulis works + consequences of deficits. Not about whether private market can deal with these things efficiently. If one actually wants to come to a conclusion in a debate, then you can't widen the discussion.
Well, he's suggesting that cutting government spending=prosperity, and I'm talking about the consequences of cutting government spending. In any case, one only needs to look at historical evidence(post WWII time period) to see that stimulating the economy via government spending works in a recession. Many economists would argue that the stimulus put forward by Obama's administration prevented us from going into a depression. As for the consequences of deficits, they're not anywhere near as extreme as Republicans and the media make it out to be, and again, you can look at the post WWII time period for evidence of this.
Yes many economists argue that, but that doesn't nessacary mean they are correct. Sure if you go look at the work of Krugman he has certainly been incorrect in analysing the effect of the obama plan. If you try to analyse the stimulis effect empirical you will find a clear negative correlation between keynesian spending and prosperity (1920-1921 recession as a great example of the austerity approach, and great depression and today as great examples of big spending approach). But of course Keynesians will argue that because of XX these comparsions arent' releevant, and that it would just be even worse without that government spendings.
Of course these arguments are impossible to disproof, but that only shows that proofing the effects of government policies empirically is an impossible task. Empirical data can always be interpreted in different ways to fit the theories of the economist.
Robert Murphy talks about it in the first part of this video:
Dude, the 1921 recession happened because of inflation. That is not the modern crisis. Try and get your facts straight before asserting that others are wrong. Financial and housing implosions, meanwhile, are as old as time and far older than government fiscal stimulus. They have always taken a long time to recover from. Try the panic of 1897 for a better comparison.
Why so offensive? I only stated that govenrment cutted spending in 1920-1921, and that the recovery was very quick. Im not even talking about what caused them. My point is just that you can always fit the data to match your theory.
In other words, you're saying that austerity worked for a crisis that wasn't caused by an implosion in demand. Which is exactly not the modern one. And yes, you can, if you don't apply Occam's razor. "There was too much government" and "there wasn't enough government intervention" can always be used to justify why things aren't going well now. But it's not that hard to at least try and look at the thousands of experiments across history, comparing the effects of a lack of government intervention and the effects of one with government involvement in crises brought upon by financial implosions, and then trying to reach a conclusion. It's another thing entirely to start with theory you're sure explains everything and work backwards.
You can never disprove the plum pudding model of molecular theory either. But you can show that your model of thinking actually predicts something reasonably true. Krugman was very unequivocal in 2009 that the stimulus wouldn't do very much at all, and that unemployment would go over 10 percent anyways. Which was correct, but hardly proves his line of thinking. Meanwhile, prominent voices in the austerity school of thought (Meltzer, Schiff, Fama, etc.) declared that inflation was just around the corner. They were, of course, completely wrong. Before the crisis, most austerity figures were telling you that the market always priced things just right. That a financial implosion was absurd and based on schlock economics. Of the people who declared that the crisis happened, they were Paul Krugman, Joseph Stiglitz, Kenneth Rogoff, Carmen Reinhart, and well, Peter Schiff and a few media personalities. Excluding Schiff and the media personalities (Schiff of course, is notable for a pro-austerity platform), the common thread each of these economists share is their skepticism in a purely private market approach to recovery. Hell, even John Cochrane and Eugene Fama, the kingpins of the modern neoclassical economic theory, praised the necessity of some form of stimulus to inject liquidity back into the banks.
So there's an easy way to test if certain economic models work; check their predictions hold up. Peter Schiff, along with every Austrian economist in the world, told you that inflation was going to be a big short-term danger in 2009. Meanwhile, Krugman asserted that basic Keynesian theory tells you that inflation would stay low as long as the economy remains depressed. Austrian economists are either busy backwalking their old claims, or changing their time frames for inflation on the fly. But it's pretty clear who turned out to be more correct. If you want to compare to 1921, inflation was going way up in the post-war era then. Now, the three year average is lower than it has been in years. So of course the perscription is going to be different.
So yes, economics is not a very certain science, and no one can every say definitively which model is absolutely correct. But it really helps when you try and look at what people have been predicting, acknowledging that yes, predictions will never be close to 100 percent correct,
The Obama stimulus faded out nearly one and a half years ago, and budget cuts have been going down in Europe, and individual states budgets, and so forth. Not a soul on the market is actually concerned about the US debt situation, as seen by the fact the US can borrow at 10 years for only 2 percent. Private markets are sitting on tons of capital (Apple is sitting on more cash than the houses of gold in the US treasury), and are, by all polls taken on businesses and employers, not expanding because there isn't demand.
The primary argument in economic circles that government spending doesn't work is that the debt has to be paid off eventually, and markets will look at the long-term debt and scale back their own investments in the short-term. Not an Austrian economist alive will argue that government spending, if some how magically done for free, will hold back recovery. But if you want to examine these claims, just poll businesses about the effect of the deficit on their investments. This has been done with Bruce Bartlett, Gallup, etc. The business's answer does not hold up the Austrian argument.
NO. That was exactly what I tried to not say. Did you even watch the video? What I tried to say that you could interpret historical events differently, and having these kinds of discussions (what caused that through analysing history) is pretty impossible. I even said it was impossible to disproof Krugmans "explanations"s. So in the above thread I wasn't implying what caused what, but merely that there are 2 sides to each story.
Btw Krugman was totally off. He predicted that unemployment would go down to like 6 % or so after Obamas stimuslis (though your correct in that he felt that Obama spent to little, and he would have prefered a "fake" war).
And no austrians would deny that stimulis doesn't increase GDP + jobs (short-term). However austrians generally only try to make predictions long-term. Peter schiff investment advice isn't even based on austrian methodology. But he is never making short-term prediction, everyone of his prediction are based on fundenmentals, but he doesn't exactly know when it will happen, and because it doesn't happen in 2012 or 2013, doesn't mean his fundemental analysis isn't correct So using these kind of narrowed "who-is-right" empirical analysis makes little sense.
Why are you even bringing up Us debt situation. First of all this is completely irellevant for the post of mine, and second of all, there is no again no austrian theory that says US debt is a huge problem short or even midterm. When discussion the effect of stimulis it seems you like you keep thinking your supposed to bring in the view points of Peter schiff (becasue thats most likely everything you know about the austrian school - Am I incorrect, have you actually read something?).
Btw there are many other people who predicited it. You just only know the most famous ones.
On March 01 2012 15:49 Meta wrote: I don't understand why people think health care should be market driven. If it were completely market driven, medical companies wouldn't have enough incentive to cure diseases. They'd have way more incentive to create expensive medicine that lowers the symptoms that you have to keep buying in order to stay "healthy".
That's why the US health care system is so perverted. It's really fucked up.
Competition.
If you only treat a cold and your competitor finds a way to cure it, not only is he going to make a killing, you're going to lose all your customers.
It doesn't work that way. The consumer cannot make an informed nor rational choice when it comes to personal health. The whole point of doctors is so that the consumer doesn't have to make a choice. Are you going to trust yourself (and the internet) over a person who's spent a greater part of a decade just training to diagnose? The reason why medical training is so long and intense is because human health is insanely complicated. They have 4 years of medical school, a minimum of 3 to 5 years of residency at 80 hours/week and then another 2-5 years specializing, at 60-80 hours a week, before any doctor is allowed to practice independently. You can't compare treatments to each other because you don't have the background required to evaluate each treatment. This isn't like buying a car or an extended warranty.
On March 01 2012 15:49 Meta wrote: I don't understand why people think health care should be market driven. If it were completely market driven, medical companies wouldn't have enough incentive to cure diseases. They'd have way more incentive to create expensive medicine that lowers the symptoms that you have to keep buying in order to stay "healthy".
That's why the US health care system is so perverted. It's really fucked up.
Competition.
If you only treat a cold and your competitor finds a way to cure it, not only is he going to make a killing, you're going to lose all your customers.
That would only be a short-term benefit for the company creating the cure, if they are thinking about profits. The profit potential for a drug that treats a disease is much greater since customers have to continue to buy for the duration of the disease.
Edit; One solution to the economic crisis is to do exactly what FDR did in 1941, down to every crossed t and dotted i (except replacing bombers with bridges) It worked pretty well, regardless of what might theoretically work better.
This post is mainly in response to Hider and the Austrian Economics thought, so scroll straight through it if you're not interested. I spoilered a lot of it since its long and tangential to the thread's main point, and rambles a bit. + Show Spoiler +
What I get out of reading some Austrian economic pieces is that the central argument is that Federal Reserve policies caused the crisis, rather than that they exacerbated. The assertion seems to run that without the monetary and policy manipulation engineered by the Federal Reserve, there would have been no bubble. That this had a hand in the crisis I don't doubt. But the argument (from what I gather from a Thorton paper posted at the Mises institute) is that Depressions are caused by the federal reserve and policy problems, and can be solved by eliminating regulations and the federal reserve altogether. This ignores over a century of history in the American West, where booms and busts in the business cycle happened incredibly frequently, and government intervention was almost non-existant. The country still ran under a gold standard. The Austrian response seems to be that hey look, there were private banks in that era that expanded monetary supply too rapidly. But since the creation of the Federal Reserve (after the Great Depression disaster), the booms and busts have become more stable, not less. And who's supposed to do the capital financing, if not private banks in a gold-standard world, even in complete absence of a federal reserve? I could not find a convincing answer.
Another problem I have with the Austrian explanation is that there is no mention, anywhere, of the role that financial instruments played in creating the crisis, and that private markets engaged in a lot of destructive behavior. To understand the crisis, it's imperative, for instance, to understand the Black-Scholes equation that private market players and banks used to spread risk (which of course, ultimately imploded and took the economy down with the banks). This was exacerbated, of course, by Federal Reserve policies that created a balloon in the housing sector; but the financial industry's misuse of such tools was not caused by the government. The fundamental error was that banks simply did not believe the risks existed, regardless of US monetary policies; not that they thought the Fed's policies somehow negated all risk. That the bankers blindness to the downsides of these financial widgets caused the implosion is exactly what I've been told by traders from the hedge fund DE Shaw, at their presentation to a mathematics program that I worked at in 2011. Absent was any mention of the federal reserve; that's the scoop from inside the financial industry. This goes against the grain of the Austrian thesis, which is that private markets will always price and allocate perfectly absent government intervention, and I wasn't surprised to see an absence of discussion of this in Austrian circles.
Finally, I'm not really convinced about their predictions. Yes, I do suppose that some in the Austrian school (just like quite a few in the Keynesian belief) saw the housing crisis coming. But their recent predictions definitely predict inflation. "There Will Be (Hyper)Inflation", one title on the Mises institute reads, from April 2009. This is not the outlier; many other pieces echo the same sentiment. The Austrian economist Robert Murphy says more or less the same thing, and warns about hyperinflation from early 2009, right up to today. To these economists, it's "only a matter of time" before the "Genie is let out of the bottle". In 2009, he and other Austrian economists declared they wouldn't be surprised at "inflation running at double digits" by the end of the year. In fact, inflation was -1.4 percent. We are still waiting.
A final disbelief I have with the Austrian school is that they don't seem like looking at empirical evidence. No, i'm not talking about "Oh look, here's something that happened, let's draw conclusions as fast as possible", which is the kind of reasoning that seems to be emanating from their camp. Their dismissal of Keynesianism seems to be done in a highly slipshod manner, one that doesn't even try to account for a lot of the variables in play. This is the kind of reasoning that politicians do for a cheap political points, the kind that pundits do to advocate for action (yes, Krugman falls into this camp, but only in his blog and media pieces; his actual work is much more nuanced). It's not scientific at all, and that's what the profession sorely needs. The pieces that I'm seeing are not carefully calibrated (if any Austrian has one in written form, I'd love to see it) to account for multiple variables in their analysis, like Christina Romer's piece carefully attempts to do. Keep in mind that Romer started from a neutral point of view, and is carefully willing to consider herself wrong. It could just be I'm bad at searching and could not find the pieces that are out there; but I would love to see an Austrian piece attempt to do the same, in writing (I don't have audio on my computer, unfortunately). You want to look at depressions to compare to the modern one? Don't use 1921 or 1979. Those recessions had nothing to do with the housing and financial implosions we're seeing today. Try the Panic of 1897, caused by a housing collapse that had nothing to do with government or the federal reserve, in a country still on the gold standard, in which employment took nearly a decade to recover. Or the Great Depression, brought along by a deregulation of banking, moderated (or prolonged, it's unclear which without additional evidence) by the New Deal. Yet when you look at how countries around the world got out of the Depression, especially the United States or Nazi Germany, a clear pattern emerges; the more you spend, the faster you get out of the hole. Whether austerity would have healed the same wounds seems unclear at best, in absence of compelling empirical arguments; but huge government outlays worked pretty clearly, in the Second World War. If this is the benchmark to which we are comparing any government action, I'd be all ears for a solution.
There's a good body of evidence that pure capitalism will not always produce the best long-range outcomes (exactly not what the Austrian school declares). For one, "privatize privatize privatize" was the name of the game in 90s Russia. And look how well that turned out. Milton Friedman, a godfather of capitalism, declared in his dying breaths that liberal counterpart Joseph Stiglitz was right and that he was wrong; privatization did not cure Russia's maladies. Murphy, I see, is a fan of anarcho-capitalism; yet this is an inherently unstable equilibrium. Companies will inevitably grow to dominate their competition, and in so consolidate power around themselves. The enterpreneurial spirit and innovation that brought these companies to such great heights becomes no longer necessary to stay on top, when you can squeeze out opposing companies with other means. Look no farther than the trusts of the Gilded Age to see this (by the way, if the government did not exist, these companies would have taken on a power of their own equally as expansive).
So what errors of capitalism? Internalizing externalities is one. The "tragedy of the commons", Milton Friedman's famous thought experiment, is about making sure everything is priced. Pollution cannot be dumped on community grounds; it needs a price tag. Property rights need to be secured. Public goods, like gardens, need to price in the benefits to the community that it would bring; that, or else citizens would need to aggregate to pay their money for such goods (which is exactly government). Another error is that capitalism will not fund basic research well. Yes, there are Ford's, Edisons, and Teslas who did end up making a living through the private market. But there are so many researchers who would have received about 0 private dollars. Who funded Werner Von Braun, Oppenheimer, Schroedinger, Pauling, Rutherberg, Einstein, Planck, Maxwell, or Watson and Crick? To have any incentive to fund such investment, investors would need a guarantee of intellectual property that comes out of the research, and to be able to hold it for years. This would be terrible, since in the meantime that basic research is denied to any other aspiring academics or theorists. Second of all, capitalism is notoriously bad at rebalancing 'power'. The ideal capitalist society supposes that workers, consumers, and companies all have relatively equal power. That is, when a company underpays for labor, workers can move to a different company; when an informed consumer doesn't like a good, it will switch to a better company. When a company charges too much for a product, another existing company can undercut the price, or a frustrated consumer can start a new company which will eventually do so, and win out in the long run over an existing company. The allocation based on market laws of supply and demand will, the reasoning goes, perfectly allocate the resources to where they need to be met. This does not stack up empircally. Companies can outcompete others for reasons that have nothing to do with price quality. Firms that have gotten big by good decisions made by CEOs 70 years ago can squeeze out new competitors with schemes like "we'll match any price!" Monopolies and trusts inevitably aggregate power. Look no further than the Gilded Age for evidence of this. (Yes, I know the government was involved; but if it wasn't, what kind of realistic pathways would have stopped Carnegie's steel from taking over every small firm? There is none.) Additionally, markets are good at allocating resources, but notoriously poor at balancing power, which is a lot of what government investment tends to do. For instance, building poor communities and raising children is something absolutely essential for society, yet a free market system will never invest in this, even absent child labor laws and government investment. In countries were child labor is legal, private markets have jumped on families and exploited htem mercilessly. Raising children adds value primarily to the individual, and thus is not measured or necessarily reclaimable in dollar amounts, making such investments unpalatable to private market creditors; hence the need for significant government spending. Even so, private creditors have the power behind them; private markets aren't exactly lining up to finance poor communities, and thus any creditor can charge with impunity, thus erasing any individual gains and giving them to the creditors and nearly them alone. Third of all, there are pretty clear examples of government financed initiatives, in the face of recessions, that have done our country a lot of good. Who can argue that the Hoover Dam, the Apollo Project, or ARPAnet were not ahead of private investors at the time? The private market is not the engine of good ideas; it's the medium. A technocratic government can easily do a good job with finding good ideas and bringing them to prime time. The key is to have a solid mechanism that incentivizes government to do so.
So what do you do during a recession? The Austrian argument is to cut. Why aren't companies expanding? It's clear from all polling taken on them that demand doesn't exist. So the Austrian argument appears to be to let everything that is going to go under, go under (really, I couldn't find an Austrian source out there defending the bailouts). Now I don't doubt that this eventually leads to a recovery; anything will. We saw to a small extent what happened when the government decided to let Lehman fail. It led to a market implosion, that caused a 2,000 point fall in the Dow Jones. So how does the growth happen, and when? After Goldman, Bank of America, Citigroup, Chrysler, and General Motors go under? This is a colossal chain reaction, that depresses demand even further. And it's clear to anyone, from the mouths of the businesses themselves, that demand is what's holding the recovery back. Letting the financial firms go under leads to businesses unable to find capital for years, until another bank is ready to build itself up and take the old one's place. The shuttering of the auto industry would lead to a chain reaction shuttering factories, which would lay off workers, depress demand for goods further, shutter companies in related sectors, and soon you see the lights go off in an entire region, and workers, people, and firms having to start from bankrupcy and scratch. That's when the recovery, according to the Austrian school, starts. Compared to this, the results of an inadequate Obama stimulus look positively heartwarming. And I strongly doubt, and I'll put a lot of money on this, that the auto industry is in a bubble because of the bailouts (this is exactly what the Austrian school argues, by the way; that bailouts simply misallocate resources unsustainably, further).
I tried to be careful in my empirical reasoning: the main sources of my argument that government spending works to get us out of the depression is that huge, and I mean colossal, government outlays worked to get Germany and the United States out of Depression in the 30s. (Romer gives much more analysis in the above link). This is the benchmark advocates of other policies have to compete with; the proof is needed that private market austerity can get the government out of recessions caused by financial implosions faster. This austerity approach easily lacks the same empirical evidence; nothing points unequivocally to austerity working, anywhere, around the world. Sure this may be because nobody's tried it to the degree that is advocated. But that's especially a reason not to try it now, in the face of a large recession. Trying it at the local, state, or small country levels; fine. But in general, even when all the theory works out for say, brain surgery, you want to have tested it multiple times before applying it at any national scale; there may be unforseen pitfalls along the way, that no one has yet forseen.
The bottom line is that the Austrian argument takes us back to a system that we've had for hundreds of years; an era that did not stand out for any significant economic gains or lack of recessions or bubbles. Government spending has worked well; there's room for argument that other policies would have worked better, but that needs significant empirical proof, which should not be too hard given 100 years of American history that gives the Austrians everything they were looking for.
On March 01 2012 22:47 SerpentFlame wrote: Edit; personally backing off the economic discussion until I learn more about the subject. However, one clear solution to the economic crisis is to do exactly what FDR did in 1941, down to every crossed t and dotted i. It worked pretty well, regardless of what might theoretically work better.
On March 01 2012 22:47 SerpentFlame wrote: Edit; personally backing off the economic discussion until I learn more about the subject. However, one clear solution to the economic crisis is to do exactly what FDR did in 1941, down to every crossed t and dotted i. It worked pretty well, regardless of what might theoretically work better.
On March 01 2012 22:47 SerpentFlame wrote: Edit; personally backing off the economic discussion until I learn more about the subject. However, one clear solution to the economic crisis is to do exactly what FDR did in 1941, down to every crossed t and dotted i. It worked pretty well, regardless of what might theoretically work better.
On March 01 2012 00:15 EternaLLegacy wrote: [quote]
I feel so sorry for you. Deficits are future taxes. Cutting spending allows taxes to go down permanently. Cutting taxes only increases future taxes. Cutting spending is the only way to actually return money to the private sector in the long run. You Keynesians are only concerned about getting through the next election cycle which is why the politicians love you, but you have no clue how the economy works.
And by cutting spending you impair essential services like Social Security, road construction, education, defense etc... The private sector can't handle everything well. If the private sector had total control over education, for example, there wouldn't be anywhere near as many educated people. If you cut government spending, you might pay less taxes, sure, but you'll be paying the same money to the private sector(unless you cut something like defense, which is something that I think should be cut) instead for essential services, and chances are the private sector will charge more. A business has one goal: to make money. Taxes might go down, but you'll still be paying just as much, if not more.
I think this is a discussion about whether stimulis works + consequences of deficits. Not about whether private market can deal with these things efficiently. If one actually wants to come to a conclusion in a debate, then you can't widen the discussion.
Well, he's suggesting that cutting government spending=prosperity, and I'm talking about the consequences of cutting government spending. In any case, one only needs to look at historical evidence(post WWII time period) to see that stimulating the economy via government spending works in a recession. Many economists would argue that the stimulus put forward by Obama's administration prevented us from going into a depression. As for the consequences of deficits, they're not anywhere near as extreme as Republicans and the media make it out to be, and again, you can look at the post WWII time period for evidence of this.
Yes many economists argue that, but that doesn't nessacary mean they are correct. Sure if you go look at the work of Krugman he has certainly been incorrect in analysing the effect of the obama plan. If you try to analyse the stimulis effect empirical you will find a clear negative correlation between keynesian spending and prosperity (1920-1921 recession as a great example of the austerity approach, and great depression and today as great examples of big spending approach). But of course Keynesians will argue that because of XX these comparsions arent' releevant, and that it would just be even worse without that government spendings.
Of course these arguments are impossible to disproof, but that only shows that proofing the effects of government policies empirically is an impossible task. Empirical data can always be interpreted in different ways to fit the theories of the economist.
Dude, the 1921 recession happened because of inflation. That is not the modern crisis. Try and get your facts straight before asserting that others are wrong. Financial and housing implosions, meanwhile, are as old as time and far older than government fiscal stimulus. They have always taken a long time to recover from. Try the panic of 1897 for a better comparison.
Why so offensive? I only stated that govenrment cutted spending in 1920-1921, and that the recovery was very quick. Im not even talking about what caused them. My point is just that you can always fit the data to match your theory.
In other words, you're saying that austerity worked for a crisis that wasn't caused by an implosion in demand. Which is exactly not the modern one. And yes, you can, if you don't apply Occam's razor. "There was too much government" and "there wasn't enough government intervention" can always be used to justify why things aren't going well now. But it's not that hard to at least try and look at the thousands of experiments across history, comparing the effects of a lack of government intervention and the effects of one with government involvement in crises brought upon by financial implosions, and then trying to reach a conclusion. It's another thing entirely to start with theory you're sure explains everything and work backwards.
You can never disprove the plum pudding model of molecular theory either. But you can show that your model of thinking actually predicts something reasonably true. Krugman was very unequivocal in 2009 that the stimulus wouldn't do very much at all, and that unemployment would go over 10 percent anyways. Which was correct, but hardly proves his line of thinking. Meanwhile, prominent voices in the austerity school of thought (Meltzer, Schiff, Fama, etc.) declared that inflation was just around the corner. They were, of course, completely wrong. Before the crisis, most austerity figures were telling you that the market always priced things just right. That a financial implosion was absurd and based on schlock economics. Of the people who declared that the crisis happened, they were Paul Krugman, Joseph Stiglitz, Kenneth Rogoff, Carmen Reinhart, and well, Peter Schiff and a few media personalities. Excluding Schiff and the media personalities (Schiff of course, is notable for a pro-austerity platform), the common thread each of these economists share is their skepticism in a purely private market approach to recovery. Hell, even John Cochrane and Eugene Fama, the kingpins of the modern neoclassical economic theory, praised the necessity of some form of stimulus to inject liquidity back into the banks.
So there's an easy way to test if certain economic models work; check their predictions hold up. Peter Schiff, along with every Austrian economist in the world, told you that inflation was going to be a big short-term danger in 2009. Meanwhile, Krugman asserted that basic Keynesian theory tells you that inflation would stay low as long as the economy remains depressed. Austrian economists are either busy backwalking their old claims, or changing their time frames for inflation on the fly. But it's pretty clear who turned out to be more correct. If you want to compare to 1921, inflation was going way up in the post-war era then. Now, the three year average is lower than it has been in years. So of course the perscription is going to be different.
So yes, economics is not a very certain science, and no one can every say definitively which model is absolutely correct. But it really helps when you try and look at what people have been predicting, acknowledging that yes, predictions will never be close to 100 percent correct,
The Obama stimulus faded out nearly one and a half years ago, and budget cuts have been going down in Europe, and individual states budgets, and so forth. Not a soul on the market is actually concerned about the US debt situation, as seen by the fact the US can borrow at 10 years for only 2 percent. Private markets are sitting on tons of capital (Apple is sitting on more cash than the houses of gold in the US treasury), and are, by all polls taken on businesses and employers, not expanding because there isn't demand.
The primary argument in economic circles that government spending doesn't work is that the debt has to be paid off eventually, and markets will look at the long-term debt and scale back their own investments in the short-term. Not an Austrian economist alive will argue that government spending, if some how magically done for free, will hold back recovery. But if you want to examine these claims, just poll businesses about the effect of the deficit on their investments. This has been done with Bruce Bartlett, Gallup, etc. The business's answer does not hold up the Austrian argument.
NO. That was exactly what I tried to not say. Did you even watch the video? What I tried to say that you could interpret historical events differently, and having these kinds of discussions (what caused that through analysing history) is pretty impossible. I even said it was impossible to disproof Krugmans "explanations"s. So in the above thread I wasn't implying what caused what, but merely that there are 2 sides to each story.
Btw Krugman was totally off. He predicted that unemployment would go down to like 6 % or so after Obamas stimuslis (though your correct in that he felt that Obama spent to little, and he would have prefered a "fake" war).
And no austrians would deny that stimulis doesn't increase GDP + jobs (short-term). However austrians generally only try to make predictions long-term. Peter schiff investment advice isn't even based on austrian methodology. But he is never making short-term prediction, everyone of his prediction are based on fundenmentals, but he doesn't exactly know when it will happen, and because it doesn't happen in 2012 or 2013, doesn't mean his fundemental analysis isn't correct So using these kind of narrowed "who-is-right" empirical analysis makes little sense.
Why are you even bringing up Us debt situation. First of all this is completely irellevant for the post of mine, and second of all, there is no again no austrian theory that says US debt is a huge problem short or even midterm. When discussion the effect of stimulis it seems you like you keep thinking your supposed to bring in the view points of Peter schiff (becasue thats most likely everything you know about the austrian school - Am I incorrect, have you actually read something?).
Btw there are many other people who predicited it. You just only know the most famous ones.
I call huge BS. Show me that 6% prediction, anywhere. Remember that in the very beginning of 09, data had the economy shrinking at 4 percent compared to the actual shrinkage rate of 8.9 percent. Don't forget to factor that into the math. Meanwhile, here's your beloved Bob Murphy on inflation in 2009; (he was quite right on the unemployment, and really really wrong on the inflation, which was negative in 2009) "At this stage nothing is certain, but the country is currently headed straight into a period of very rapid price hikes and a very bad recession. It would not surprise me at all if the national unemployment rate and the annualized rate of consumer price inflation both broke through into double digits by the end of 2009. Moreover, regardless of when it actually starts, I predict that things will get much worse before they get better, and that the United States will be mired in a malfunctioning economy for at least a decade, with price inflation in the double-digits (possibly higher) the entire time. We can call this condition “hyper-depression." ” Here's Bob Murphy again, this time half a month ago. "http://mises.org/daily/5574" Again, the call is the same. Inflation is just around the corner. Murphy's argument is that it's going to happen once the fed slips, and it's going to happen soon. He's very unequivocal about this. We're still waiting.
Why do you keep bringing up inflation data? Murphys theory is that high inflation will happen, because he dont believe in the exit strategies of the FED. (http://mises.org/daily/5110/Three-Flawed-Fed-Exit-Options) If you disagree with that analysis then argue why. Sure Murphy and Schiff can make mistkakes as investors, but that has nothing to do with the austrian school of economics. Murphy is a great economist, but where do you find I said he is a great investor? Please make a distinction between economics and investment theories. And since the dicussion (so far) is only related to economics (effect of stimululis), and I only tried to argue why using empirical evidence isn't exactly a good proof of why austrians are wrong, I am surprised why you keep criticising the investment analysis of some austrians? It's completely irrelevant.
However if you want to discuss whether we will have hyper inflation in the future (instead of discussion austrian economics) then say that. But right now your just comparing apples with bananas.
While Krugman is known for his "I told you so", he wasn't 100% correct back then. Unemployment rose much more than he expected (yes it was not 6% but 7.3%, but I said "or so", indicating that I wasn't sure of the exact number, but just that he was pretty far off). But of course he can always argue, that economy probably was worse than what he esimated. But austrians aren't using that as a proof saying he is wrong about the effect of stimulis. They use a priori logic to argue why. On the other hand, you (apparantly) feel the need to say that the austrian school is wrong because we didn't have high inflation yet (obv. making huge 2 fallacies in that statement).
If you really want to test the austrian school empirically, then why don't you try and and actually study the ABCT, and study if interest rates actually were artificially low (money suply increased) before economic crisis happened.
To sum up this post you need to: 1) Specifiy what you want to discuss: Whether inflation will happen or the effect of stimulis. 2) If you want to discuss both then make a clear distinction (dont acuss the austrian methodology of being wrong regariding inflation). 3) Stop using current data as a proof that the high inflation can't happen. Instead focus on arguing why Fed's exit strategies actually can work (given that you want to discuss inflation). 4) Do you want to discuss austrian economics through empirical events or a priori logic? Or both?
XD at Mises. They literally take absurd scenarios and purport them as inevitable. Banks aren't suddenly going to charge their customers over 40x the rate given by the Fed. Even then, there's not enough credit demand from "good customers" to make a sizeable dent in the reserves.
Like I said before in this topic, an increase in money supply won't cause inflation without a stable or increasing velocity of money. As long as the recovery remains slow (aka we don't gain 5% employment in a year), the relative decreased velocity of money will serve as a cushion to an oversized supply of money.
On March 01 2012 17:41 Hider wrote: But he is never making short-term prediction, everyone of his prediction are based on fundenmentals, but he doesn't exactly know when it will happen, and because it doesn't happen in 2012 or 2013, doesn't mean his fundemental analysis isn't correct So using these kind of narrowed "who-is-right" empirical analysis makes little sense.
You sir, just won a trip to signatureville.
On topic. Super Tuesday approaches. Does anyone think the GOP will have a clear cut winner by the time it's over, and if they don't do you think it will hurt their chances in the general election?
On March 01 2012 17:41 Hider wrote: But he is never making short-term prediction, everyone of his prediction are based on fundenmentals, but he doesn't exactly know when it will happen, and because it doesn't happen in 2012 or 2013, doesn't mean his fundemental analysis isn't correct So using these kind of narrowed "who-is-right" empirical analysis makes little sense.
On March 02 2012 02:03 aksfjh wrote: XD at Mises. They literally take absurd scenarios and purport them as inevitable. Banks aren't suddenly going to charge their customers over 40x the rate given by the Fed. Even then, there's not enough credit demand from "good customers" to make a sizeable dent in the reserves.
Like I said before in this topic, an increase in money supply won't cause inflation without a stable or increasing velocity of money. As long as the recovery remains slow (aka we don't gain 5% employment in a year), the relative decreased velocity of money will serve as a cushion to an oversized supply of money.
Well if you define money suply as money the public has avaiable, then I think velocity is somewhat constant. The deflation/ low inflation is mainly due to the decrease in money suply. What will cause inflation (according to those who do not believe in the exit strategies of the fed) is the increased money suply avaiable to the public (banks will start lending out money). But obv. if you define the money suply through the "M1-3" or TMS , the velocoty has decreased. But most mainstream economist thinks about inflation in terms of "will banks lend out money", and "does the Fed have an exit plan".
Tbh, it doesn't exactly look like you understand the arguments of those who think inflation will happen.