On August 21 2011 02:58 Phrost wrote: So has anyone else seen this hilarious inconsistency in Rick Perry?
in this video from his campaign:
@1:52 he says "American Ingenuity" while standing next to a guy working on a game made in Canada and openly promotes homosexual relationships between the characters.
On August 21 2011 00:57 gimpy wrote: Wow, I'm starting to love Perry. I didn't know that much about him untill now. It is hard for you to understand us conservatives, but know that we're not crazy, we just belive STRONGLY in a few principles.
1st: There IS a creator of the the universe, and he is most likely the God of the Bible, and we feel it is more important to obey Him over the Govt whenever the 2 are in conflict (like letting our kids know that homosexual sex is "sin" and treating abortion as "murder".
I have no problem with this. I have a problem with this when people try to create laws relying on religious reasoning that will govern people who do not share that religious view. That's no better than muslim sharia laws. If you feel homosexuality and abortion are sins, don't do it. But never ever does one have the right to impose his own religious views on another person. What makes me admire USA historically is how it, earlier than most countries embraced freedom of religion. It's one of the reasons many of my own countrymen fled there in the 19th century. It also includes the freedom to not be governed by another man's religion.
Second, while many conservatives (at least in the US) are christians, far from all conservatives are. So writing down christianity and homophobia as staples of conservatism is just wrong.
On August 21 2011 00:57 gimpy wrote: Wow, I'm starting to love Perry. I didn't know that much about him untill now. It is hard for you to understand us conservatives, but know that we're not crazy, we just belive STRONGLY in a few principles.
1st: There IS a creator of the the universe, and he is most likely the God of the Bible, and we feel it is more important to obey Him over the Govt whenever the 2 are in conflict (like letting our kids know that homosexual sex is "sin" and treating abortion as "murder".
I have no problem with this. I have a problem with this when people try to create laws relying on religious reasoning that will govern people who do not share that religious view. That's no better than muslim sharia laws. If you feel homosexuality and abortion are sins, don't do it. But never ever does one have the right to impose his own religious views on another person. What makes me admire USA historically is how it, earlier than most countries embraced freedom of religion. It's one of the reasons many of my own countrymen fled there in the 19th century. It also includes the freedom to not be governed by another man's religion.
Second, while many conservatives (at least in the US) are christians, far from all conservatives are. So writing down christianity and homophobia as staples of conservatism is just wrong.
This is frankly nonsensical. As a principle America holds secularism to be the Government not interfering with the Church, and vise versa. Not a division of politics and faith, faith and man. That isnt even possible. There is no way as a person to say, ok, time for me to advocate what is right WITHOUT reference to what I feel is the arbiter of right/wrong. Its also completely, well, deranged, to ask a person to support the legality of an act they view as murder, because of where they gain such a moral notion. Law is legislated morality with a pragmatic twist, I am a Christian and I think abortion is both murderous and pragmatically terrible for society [lowering birth rate and all] and I'm going to be vocal about that and support policies that reflect my views.
I understand that republicans have to cater to the christian right in order to get votes, but it really disgusts me. I didn't know a thing about Rick Perry, but as soon as I heard he held some kind of "prayer rally" I immediately excluded him from consideration. Are these people too stupid to realize that politicians are simply placating them and giving them lip service and telling them everything they want to hear? It is so blatantly insincere and the people eat it up.
More and more I'm starting to think that democratic forms of government are just innately and eternally broken. The average individual is simply too ignorant to make decisions for the nation. That doesn't mean I think we should be run by the Bernanke's and the Obama's and the Ruth Bader Ginsberg's. In comparison, I suppose they are worse...
On August 21 2011 03:33 lizzard_warish wrote: I am a Christian and I think abortion is both murderous and pragmatically terrible for society [lowering birth rate and all] and I'm going to be vocal about that and support policies that reflect my views.
Lowering the birth rate of certain groups in our population is certainly BETTER for society.
On August 21 2011 00:57 gimpy wrote: Wow, I'm starting to love Perry. I didn't know that much about him untill now. It is hard for you to understand us conservatives, but know that we're not crazy, we just belive STRONGLY in a few principles.
1st: There IS a creator of the the universe, and he is most likely the God of the Bible, and we feel it is more important to obey Him over the Govt whenever the 2 are in conflict (like letting our kids know that homosexual sex is "sin" and treating abortion as "murder".
2nd: We are to be a blessing (by God's command) to those in need (conservative Christians are the most generous with their money to the needy by far)
3rd: No one should be forced to give their property/money to others without EXCEPTIONAL reasons. Generosity needs to be voluntary in almost all cases.
TL is predominantly teenager and liberal, but as you get older, many of you will suddenly start to understand the wisdom of conservatism. (as I did)
Street cred: BS Physics, MN State Human Services Worker
Conservatism != Christianity. The fact that you and many others define it as such is probably the biggest problem with the Republican party. True conservatives get chased out over social issues. What you describe is neo-conservatism, which is how we have ended up with a political party that is supposedly conservative but in name only. War is not conservative, and it's not Christian. The death penalty is not conservative, and it's not Christian. Forcing your religion on the country is not conservative, and it's not Christian. I could go on and on. Instead of following the teachings of Christ and embracing his philosophy of love, Christians now latch onto bits and pieces of books written by the hands of men because the clergy tells them that that's what is important. All the books of the Bible were written by fallible humans, translated at least three times, and interpreted by fallible humans again. They contradict each other, and The Septuigint even threw many of them out under the presumption that God would protect them from making any mistakes (the same way the Pope is protected from fallibility as I recall).
The history of Hebrew and Christian traditions is fascinating, how they were influenced by other cultures and how other traditions were incorporated or discontinued. Every ancient culture had their stories explaining the natural phenomena that surrounded them, and how the world came to be created. There is a lot of overlap between the stories of the Bible, including the messiah story, and so many other ancient traditions, much older than the Bible. That fascinates the hell out of me, but so do the stories from Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Taoism. If there is a great Creator, He isn't "probably" the God of the Bible, any other religion has at least as much claim to legitimacy and in reality they're probably all wrong. Are any of them so much crazier than what Christians believe?
I was raised as a Christian. I did not grow to understand the "wisdom" of neo-conservatism and the unholy alliance with religion. I grew to understand just how ridiculous and harmful organized religion is, and that it should NEVER have a part in politics. The assumption that those who disagree with you are young and unwise is insulting and immature.
On August 21 2011 00:57 gimpy wrote: Wow, I'm starting to love Perry. I didn't know that much about him untill now. It is hard for you to understand us conservatives, but know that we're not crazy, we just belive STRONGLY in a few principles.
1st: There IS a creator of the the universe, and he is most likely the God of the Bible, and we feel it is more important to obey Him over the Govt whenever the 2 are in conflict (like letting our kids know that homosexual sex is "sin" and treating abortion as "murder".
I have no problem with this. I have a problem with this when people try to create laws relying on religious reasoning that will govern people who do not share that religious view. That's no better than muslim sharia laws. If you feel homosexuality and abortion are sins, don't do it. But never ever does one have the right to impose his own religious views on another person. What makes me admire USA historically is how it, earlier than most countries embraced freedom of religion. It's one of the reasons many of my own countrymen fled there in the 19th century. It also includes the freedom to not be governed by another man's religion.
Second, while many conservatives (at least in the US) are christians, far from all conservatives are. So writing down christianity and homophobia as staples of conservatism is just wrong.
This is frankly nonsensical. As a principle America holds secularism to be the Government not interfering with the Church, and vise versa. Not a division of politics and faith, faith and man. That isnt even possible. There is no way as a person to say, ok, time for me to advocate what is right WITHOUT reference to what I feel is the arbiter of right/wrong. Its also completely, well, deranged, to ask a person to support the legality of an act they view as murder, because of where they gain such a moral notion. Law is legislated morality with a pragmatic twist, I am a Christian and I think abortion is both murderous and pragmatically terrible for society [lowering birth rate and all] and I'm going to be vocal about that and support policies that reflect my views.
In some cases it's very hard to separate, and in some cases it's pretty easy. Abortion is an example where it's hard to separate because it comes down to a line where you consider a fetus human and we all agree hurting and killing humans is bad. Pro-abortion tends to focus on if the fetus can suffer, while pro-life tends to focus on the belief that it's a human life. You can argue both without the need for religion.
Homosexuality is pretty easy though. You might view it as sin, but you cannot say that anyone is being harmed by it (more than the normal risks of sex). So outlawing homosexuality would clearly be based only on religious morals and therefore you are imposing religious laws on people who are not religious. You can't really argue that homosexuality is wrong from any other standpoint than that your religion forbids it (or possibly that you are disgusted by it). Edit: Common argument that it is "unnatural" is just wrong. It's perfectly natural. After all, we're part of the nature. Also, there are many animal species with documented homosexuality. The "unnatural argument" is just a coverup for a religious view or plain homophobia.
If you have arguments for an opinion that hold value on a non-religious level I don't care why you formed that opinion. By all means, if those arguments hold make a law out of it. Everyone can see your reasoning for it and respect as sane individuals. If it's only because of religion, that law will hold no value to a lot of people and these people will see no reason to follow this law other than the fear of repercussions.
On August 21 2011 00:57 gimpy wrote: Wow, I'm starting to love Perry. I didn't know that much about him untill now. It is hard for you to understand us conservatives, but know that we're not crazy, we just belive STRONGLY in a few principles.
1st: There IS a creator of the the universe, and he is most likely the God of the Bible, and we feel it is more important to obey Him over the Govt whenever the 2 are in conflict (like letting our kids know that homosexual sex is "sin" and treating abortion as "murder".
2nd: We are to be a blessing (by God's command) to those in need (conservative Christians are the most generous with their money to the needy by far)
3rd: No one should be forced to give their property/money to others without EXCEPTIONAL reasons. Generosity needs to be voluntary in almost all cases.
TL is predominantly teenager and liberal, but as you get older, many of you will suddenly start to understand the wisdom of conservatism. (as I did)
Street cred: BS Physics, MN State Human Services Worker
I'd argue that selecting a few principles out of literally thousands (which just so happen to coincide with the agenda of the plutocracy...) and enshrining them to a level of unquestionable axioms is the definition of crazy. Perry et. al follow a Jesus that is no where to be seen in the Gospels, which is pretty unsurprising given how the history of Christianity is largely one of fabricating and selectively interpreting stories made up several hundred years after the death of Jesus as a means to an end.
The bit about seeing the wisdom of conservatism as you get older is just hogwash, as older people are just as likely to be motivated by a tribal fear of the other and greedy as narcissistic teenagers.
On August 21 2011 00:57 gimpy wrote: Wow, I'm starting to love Perry. I didn't know that much about him untill now. It is hard for you to understand us conservatives, but know that we're not crazy, we just belive STRONGLY in a few principles.
1st: There IS a creator of the the universe, and he is most likely the God of the Bible, and we feel it is more important to obey Him over the Govt whenever the 2 are in conflict (like letting our kids know that homosexual sex is "sin" and treating abortion as "murder".
2nd: We are to be a blessing (by God's command) to those in need (conservative Christians are the most generous with their money to the needy by far)
3rd: No one should be forced to give their property/money to others without EXCEPTIONAL reasons. Generosity needs to be voluntary in almost all cases.
TL is predominantly teenager and liberal, but as you get older, many of you will suddenly start to understand the wisdom of conservatism. (as I did)
Street cred: BS Physics, MN State Human Services Worker
Conservatism != Christianity. The fact that you and many others define it as such is probably the biggest problem with the Republican party. True conservatives get chased out over social issues. What you describe is neo-conservatism, which is how we have ended up with a political party that is supposedly conservative but in name only. War is not conservative, and it's not Christian. The death penalty is not conservative, and it's not Christian. Forcing your religion on the country is not conservative, and it's not Christian. I could go on and on. Instead of following the teachings of Christ and embracing his philosophy of love, Christians now latch onto bits and pieces of books written by the hands of men because the clergy tells them that that's what is important. All the books of the Bible were written by fallible humans, translated at least three times, and interpreted by fallible humans again. They contradict each other, and The Septuigint even threw many of them out under the presumption that God would protect them from making any mistakes (the same way the Pope is protected from fallibility as I recall).
The history of Hebrew and Christian traditions is fascinating, how they were influenced by other cultures and how other traditions were incorporated or discontinued. Every ancient culture had their stories explaining the natural phenomena that surrounded them, and how the world came to be created. There is a lot of overlap between the stories of the Bible, including the messiah story, and so many other ancient traditions, much older than the Bible. That fascinates the hell out of me, but so do the stories from Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Taoism. If there is a great Creator, He isn't "probably" the God of the Bible, any other religion has at least as much claim to legitimacy and in reality they're probably all wrong. Are any of them so much crazier than what Christians believe?
I was raised as a Christian. I did not grow to understand the "wisdom" of neo-conservatism and the unholy alliance with religion. I grew to understand just how ridiculous and harmful organized religion is, and that it should NEVER have a part in politics. The assumption that those who disagree with you are young and unwise is insulting and immature.
Well put, when I was a kid I considered myself a Christian and read the bible. As I grew older I saw how Christians would ignore the bible's teachings and do very unchristian things in the name of their religion / morals.
A great example is how often they like to cite how they are the most giving group of people(like the person you quoted) when Jesus said "But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your alms may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you."
Despite this they love bringing this up, and why do they bring it up? so they can feel prideful and superior to others, not exactly a Christian teaching either. " The Pharisee stood and thanked God that he was better than other men (vs. 11). To the converse, the Publican with down cast eyes said, "God be merciful to me a sinner" (vs. 13). Jesus taught, "everyone that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbeth himself shall be exalted" (vs. 14)."
I don't mind faithful, kind Christians who don't try to control others lives because they realize how short they fall to living up to the bibles teachings and to do so would make them hypocrites. Sadly this is the minority in many areas and the majority are quickly becoming self righteous prideful hypocrites.
As seen by: "TL is predominantly teenager and liberal, but as you get older, many of you will suddenly start to understand the wisdom of conservatism. (as I did)"
A lot of Christians like to pick and choose from the bible but unfortunately they often don't pick and choose the wise parts. The sad part is if you believe the bible hypocrites greatly angered Jesus yet these people try and speak for him.
On August 20 2011 17:18 ryanAnger wrote: Ron Paul is the only candidate running for the GOP spot who isn't likely to let his religious views or financial interests get in the way of doing the job. [...] Ron Paul, on the other hand, seems to legitimately care about the direction of our government, and he has had the same views on the destructive path our gov't is taking for the last 30+ years.
Ron Paul is the only candidate (probably ever) who hasn't flip-flopped on the issues just because it's within his best interest as a politician. This has led to people thinking he's insane, basically, but the fact is, he's the only one who has the balls to stand up for what he actually thinks is right. And I think he's the only one in the race (Obama included) who will do whatever it takes to get the right things done in office.
Also, electing Ron Paul would be a big "fuck you" to the dominant bipartisan system that we have, and I definitely think that is a good thing.
No, see:
Ron Paul as President of the United States would not "[do] his job" because he is ideologically opposed to the job itself. He does not "legitimately care about the direction of [the US] government"; he hates government at the federal level, so electing him President would effectively be electing someone to a post they're going to try and sabotage and dissolve. These may be some unusual times, and Obama may have "Jimmy Carter" written all over him, but dissolve the EPA and/or going "it's morning in America" is not the answer, not now.
And what is this myth that it's bad, reprehensible, a sign of weakness to change your views on something? This "flip-flop" bullshit has been around since the '04 election, and it's as stupid now as it was then. Since when is massive amounts of evil perpetrated by anyone other than those who believe steadfastly they are right. Compromise and pliability are signs of humanity, and if you do not change your views on the world, on government, etc. in thirty years of life (thirty years!), then insanity is literally the least of your worries. Besides, Ron Paul's social, economic, and foreign policies are hardly coherent or consistent, and his election would probably mean the end of a United States That Leads the World.
Look, if you want to fuck the system, go for it, but at least try to impose something humane as an alternative. Electing a candidate or propping up an ideology that aims to create a The Man in High Castle-style United States from the Civil War onward is a bad idea all over.
On August 20 2011 22:43 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: For what it's worth Romney sealed his election fate when he said Corporations were people adding to the fact that a former coworker created a company then gave a massive donation to him then dissolved the company.
Romney also literally has no will of his own other than careerism. This is good - he wants to please his electorate to get votes - but in Primary/Campaign rhetoric it means he's spouting crazy shit just to court crazy shitheads in the base. I think he'll come off unlikeable if not unknowable further down the line.
It is bad to "change your views" if your views didn't actually change, and you are just saying they did to get more votes or to appease your party.
On August 21 2011 00:57 gimpy wrote:TL is predominantly teenager and liberal, but as you get older, many of you will suddenly start to understand the wisdom of conservatism. (as I did)
One other thought. I will never call myself conservative, because the U.S. idea of conservative is laughable. I will never condone a party that treats a group of people as unnatural, nor force their "morality" on others. Also, I will never turn Christian, which apparently the neo-cons hijacked as well. The "moral" views neo-cons boast are retarded.
I imagine I would lean more to the center as my net worth increases, and I imagine I might be less inclined to agree with many of the liberal views as I gain more insight, but turning away from liberalism doesn't mean going conservative.
Perry supports and encourages the teaching of creationism in schools, and Texas is doing it (which is illegal, and unconstitutional, and was ruled on by the Supreme Court I might add). Note how he walks away and won't answer the question when there is a question about why he doesn't believe in science coming.
Perry supports and encourages the teaching of creationism in schools, and Texas is doing it (which is illegal, and unconstitutional, and was ruled on by the Supreme Court I might add). Note how he walks away and won't answer the question when there is a question about why he doesn't believe in science coming.
And yet again we're left to wonder, how on earth do these people exist in the USA (nevermind that they're representatives of the people and even have a chance at presidency), most technologically advanced of nations? Creationism of all things?
(Perry et al might want to have a word with viruses and such, so they can stop evolving and becoming immune all the time to more and more antibiotics, it'll surely free up some capital too!!)
EPT
