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Republican nominations - Page 128

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Rosettastoned
Profile Joined September 2010
United States107 Posts
October 18 2011 18:24 GMT
#2541
http://www.grumpypolitico.com/2011/09/analysis-herman-cains-999-plan/ This is the primary issue with the tax plan. On a Macro scale, yes it does actually deliver more wealth. The issue is that the Americans that are hurting now, mid to lower class, are the ones who will carry EVEN more of the burden, and that's what everyone is up in arms about if they absolutely despise it.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-18 19:06:03
October 18 2011 18:58 GMT
#2542
On October 19 2011 03:19 Kiarip wrote:
Well first of all according Bloomberg it's no revenue neutral and is short 200 billion dollars worth of revenue which is approximately 9% of the tax revenue.


I have seen differing opinions on this point. I think part of the problem is that it's difficult to predict and quantify the positive economic effect that will result from moving to the 999 plan, which admittedly contains lower tax rates. Take the Reagan tax cuts, for example. He dramatically slashed taxes, yet revenues increased because the base of taxable money had grown so much. The same phenomenon would occur with the 999 plan. I wouldn't worry about Bloomberg's calculation of a 9% deficit. If anything, it shows that the 999 plan comes close enough to be revenue neutral.

EDIT: Also, I have absolutely no problem with reducing federal revenue because I also advocate dramatically slashing federal expenditures.

He also claims/implies that he eliminates the payroll tax, but it's in fact rolled into the corporate tax, because there's no deduction to the corporate/business tax based on the income tax in his tax plan, so the payroll tax is still there at 9%.


I don't really understand this criticism. Cain is lowering corporate tax rates down to 9%, period. This replaces all other federal corporate taxes, including the payroll tax and the current corporate income tax. He's also allowing immediate deductions for capital investments (no more depreciation), business-related purchases from US companies, and all net exports. How does this screw over business owners?

So this tax change actually raises the taxes for a lot of the lower and middle class that he claims it actually lowers them for.


This is more of a philosophical difference. From my perspective, EVERYONE should have some skin in the game. In fact, this is one of the core principles of Jefferson's notion of "republican virtue," which he believed to be vital to the survival of the republic.

EDIT: For what it's worth, I do realize that my opinion regarding the last point maybe in the minority, and Herman Cain realizes this, too. This is why he's looking to soften the blow a bit with this "empowerment zone" modification to the 999 plan. We'll just have to wait and see what he has in mind.
methematics
Profile Joined August 2010
United States392 Posts
October 18 2011 19:23 GMT
#2543
[QUOTE]On October 19 2011 03:19 Kiarip wrote:

I have seen differing opinions on this point. I think part of the problem is that it's difficult to predict and quantify the positive economic effect that will result from moving to the 999 plan, which admittedly contains lower tax rates. Take the Reagan tax cuts, for example. He dramatically slashed taxes, yet revenues increased because the base of taxable money had grown so much. The same phenomenon would occur with the 999 plan. I wouldn't worry about Bloomberg's calculation of a 9% deficit. If anything, it shows that the 999 plan comes close enough to be revenue neutral.
[QUOTE]

There is a "curve" in economics called the laffer curve, named after Art Laffer who i believe was an economic advisor to Regan. The idea of the laffer curve is as follows: at 0% tax rate the government earns nothing, and 1% the govermnet earns more then nothing. At 100% tax rate (in a capitalist country) the government earns nothing because no one works, at a 99% tax rate the government (possibly) earns slightly more. Thus the function of taxation percentage to government revenue must decrease at some tax percentage, since it starts out increasing and ends up decreasing. This (i believe, not to sure) is what motivates the idea that Regan had in which lowering taxes will generate more revenue, by assuming that we are passed the tax rate at which the maximum revenues are generated. The laffer curve cant identify if there is only 1 local (and thus global) maximum or if there are several local maximums. Think of an upside town parabola as having one local/global maximum and a sin function having several local/global maximums (where each global maximum is equivalent, scale the since function with an amplutude per time or position scalor to remove this). Also, there are many different taxes which scale dramatically with other factors, so I believe the laffer curves also assumes some flat tax.

I was surprised at how receptive Art Laffer is of the 999 plan, its a big deal coming from his mouth imo.

Note that lower taxes can increase revenue iff our current tax rate is too high assuming a single global maximum in the laffer curve.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-18 19:29:28
October 18 2011 19:29 GMT
#2544
On October 19 2011 04:23 methematics wrote:
There is a "curve" in economics called the laffer curve, named after Art Laffer who i believe was an economic advisor to Regan. The idea of the laffer curve is as follows: at 0% tax rate the government earns nothing, and 1% the govermnet earns more then nothing. At 100% tax rate (in a capitalist country) the government earns nothing because no one works, at a 99% tax rate the government (possibly) earns slightly more. Thus the function of taxation percentage to government revenue must decrease at some tax percentage, since it starts out increasing and ends up decreasing. This (i believe, not to sure) is what motivates the idea that Regan had in which lowering taxes will generate more revenue, by assuming that we are passed the tax rate at which the maximum revenues are generated. The laffer curve cant identify if there is only 1 local (and thus global) maximum or if there are several local maximums. Think of an upside town parabola as having one local/global maximum and a sin function having several local/global maximums (where each global maximum is equivalent, scale the since function with an amplutude per time or position scalor to remove this). Also, there are many different taxes which scale dramatically with other factors, so I believe the laffer curves also assumes some flat tax.

I was surprised at how receptive Art Laffer is of the 999 plan, its a big deal coming from his mouth imo.

Note that lower taxes can increase revenue iff our current tax rate is too high assuming a single global maximum in the laffer curve.


Correct. I know that Cain has said that he and his economic advisers that assembled the 999 plan built these concepts into their estimations of why it would be revenue neutral.
Kiarip
Profile Joined August 2008
United States1835 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-18 19:49:32
October 18 2011 19:48 GMT
#2545
On October 19 2011 03:58 xDaunt wrote:

This is more of a philosophical difference. From my perspective, EVERYONE should have some skin in the game. In fact, this is one of the core principles of Jefferson's notion of "republican virtue," which he believed to be vital to the survival of the republic.

EDIT: For what it's worth, I do realize that my opinion regarding the last point maybe in the minority, and Herman Cain realizes this, too. This is why he's looking to soften the blow a bit with this "empowerment zone" modification to the 999 plan. We'll just have to wait and see what he has in mind.


I am actually in favor of sales tax being the dominant source of revenue, and taxes being flatter, which probably will end up taxing the lower and middle-class more.

My point was that he mis-represented his plan as something that will either alleviate or at least not worsen the tax burden on the middle-class, while this has been shown to be demonstrably false.

I'm not totally opposed to the tax plan itself, I do however think that the spending is what needs to be addressed, and it's also the tougher issue for any candidate to answer and he dodges the question a lot by say how he's going to have advisors that will figure this out, which implies that he wants to be elected before he proposes his spending cut plan, which in my opinion is unacceptable. I'm sure majority of people agree with me, and he will eventually be forced to put one together anyways for the debates, but his reluctancy combined with the other things just compound my feelings towards him being the ultimate populist candidate as opposed to someone who actually has a plan to fix anything.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
October 18 2011 19:52 GMT
#2546
I think that Ron Paul's spending cut plan may force the issue among the candidates, compelling them to produce their own budget deficit reduction plans.
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
October 18 2011 19:54 GMT
#2547
actually I think most republicans want to just straight up ban gay marriage.

It is the libertarian view however.


Grand Old Party for a reason.

I think most Americans want to ban gay marriage - it's not just Republicans, every single time states vote on gay marriage, or people are polled, people vote overwhelmingly against gay marriage.

Now personally, I support gay marriage, I even voted in favor of it in my state, but if a state is dominated by a bunch of religious nutjobs, then it should be allowed to ban gay marriage. Virginia, for example, is an extremely christian state, and if they want to be intolerant, or 'christian', then they should have the right to do so.

My point is that most people are against gay marriage in America, despite what everyone you know tells you because everyone you know is on the college campus or the city. So yes, most republicans are against gay marriage, but so are most democrats.

But, I do think a lot more republicans are against gay marriage on a personal level. However, most republicans recognize that it's a state issue. There was the whole federal mandate fiasco Bush proposed, but that was in response to federal activism, or in essence support for states rights (by taking it away... yes, confusing). I think Democrats want a federal mandate passed, and Republicans want each state to vote for it. I think most Republicans would be perfectly happy if straight marriage was no longer federall supported through taxes and etc as well.

that's part of his private life...

what are you even trying to say?


I'm trying to say Obama is a christian nutjob too, so the idea that only republicans are religious fanatics is ridiculous when Obama goes to church every sunday just like they do, talks about god just as much, has certain beliefs just because a book told him (just like republicans). Obama went to Rev. Wright, and irregardless of the controversial things he said, this man has said some extremely... 'religious' stuff. I'm sure Obama just went every.single.sunday to this guy's church because he only pretends to be christian right?

If someone believes in some book and some imaginary god, then I definitely want to know about his 'private life'. I think it's a little relevant. My point is, is that Obama is no less a religious fanatic than Republicans, yet liberals always talk about how religious republicans are, yet when Obama refuses to grant gay marriage, it has nothing to do with how extremely religious he is.

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Kiarip
Profile Joined August 2008
United States1835 Posts
October 18 2011 20:06 GMT
#2548
On October 19 2011 04:54 Belial88 wrote:
Show nested quote +
actually I think most republicans want to just straight up ban gay marriage.

It is the libertarian view however.


Grand Old Party for a reason.

I think most Americans want to ban gay marriage - it's not just Republicans, every single time states vote on gay marriage, or people are polled, people vote overwhelmingly against gay marriage.

Now personally, I support gay marriage, I even voted in favor of it in my state, but if a state is dominated by a bunch of religious nutjobs, then it should be allowed to ban gay marriage. Virginia, for example, is an extremely christian state, and if they want to be intolerant, or 'christian', then they should have the right to do so.

My point is that most people are against gay marriage in America, despite what everyone you know tells you because everyone you know is on the college campus or the city. So yes, most republicans are against gay marriage, but so are most democrats.

But, I do think a lot more republicans are against gay marriage on a personal level. However, most republicans recognize that it's a state issue. There was the whole federal mandate fiasco Bush proposed, but that was in response to federal activism, or in essence support for states rights (by taking it away... yes, confusing). I think Democrats want a federal mandate passed, and Republicans want each state to vote for it. I think most Republicans would be perfectly happy if straight marriage was no longer federall supported through taxes and etc as well.



Lol no... Most Republicans are trying to appeal to a base even more conservative than what Obama is trying to appeal to. And on average they're more religious than Obama I would say. Look for Santorum for god's sake.

Republicans are all about preserving the Christian Protestant marriage with the power of the government... there are no real conservatives left amongst them.




Show nested quote +
that's part of his private life...

what are you even trying to say?


I'm trying to say Obama is a christian nutjob too, so the idea that only republicans are religious fanatics is ridiculous when Obama goes to church every sunday just like they do, talks about god just as much, has certain beliefs just because a book told him (just like republicans). Obama went to Rev. Wright, and irregardless of the controversial things he said, this man has said some extremely... 'religious' stuff. I'm sure Obama just went every.single.sunday to this guy's church because he only pretends to be christian right?

If someone believes in some book and some imaginary god, then I definitely want to know about his 'private life'. I think it's a little relevant. My point is, is that Obama is no less a religious fanatic than Republicans, yet liberals always talk about how religious republicans are, yet when Obama refuses to grant gay marriage, it has nothing to do with how extremely religious he is.



I think it has more to do with the fact that it's still unpopular to support gay marriage. Same with the fact that most Americans are Christians, and it's standard to try to make yourself relatable. I think Obama is pretty secular tbh.
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7032 Posts
October 18 2011 20:24 GMT
#2549
There's a good enough legal case for allowing gay marriage. The government isn't allowed to take civil rights away from minorities just because it won a 51% vote, there are protections against it. The USA is not a democracy, but a constitutional republic.

Language about state rights is just code for finding a way to avoid being a constitutional republic, by identifying pockets of the country where you have a majority for some bigoted thing. You'll see republicans use different measures if they're ever in a state without them having a majority.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
bode927
Profile Joined April 2011
United States164 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-18 20:53:12
October 18 2011 20:53 GMT
#2550


I'm trying to say Obama is a christian nutjob too, so the idea that only republicans are religious fanatics is ridiculous when Obama goes to church every sunday just like they do, talks about god just as much, has certain beliefs just because a book told him (just like republicans). Obama went to Rev. Wright, and irregardless of the controversial things he said, this man has said some extremely... 'religious' stuff. I'm sure Obama just went every.single.sunday to this guy's church because he only pretends to be christian right?

If someone believes in some book and some imaginary god, then I definitely want to know about his 'private life'. I think it's a little relevant. My point is, is that Obama is no less a religious fanatic than Republicans, yet liberals always talk about how religious republicans are, yet when Obama refuses to grant gay marriage, it has nothing to do with how extremely religious he is.



I'm sorry, but this just VASTLY oversimplifies the situation. What I don't know is if you actually know NOTHING about Christianity, or if you're one of those atheists that puts all belief in anything beyond the natural world in the same bucket.
Wegandi
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2455 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-18 22:25:07
October 18 2011 22:24 GMT
#2551
Cain doesn't waffle?

- Was against an audit of the Federal Reserve before he was for it
- Was for an electrified border fence before he was against it (he actually flip flopped on this in a span of two days!)
- Was for TARP before he was sem-quasi-something critical of it, then was against it, and now he is all fine with a program-like TARP
- Was against a Federal VAT tax before he was for one

http://economicfreedomcoalition.com/news/press-opinion.asp?id=32

- His economic adviser is a low level employee in a local Wells Fargo establishment and when pressed could not answer who any of his other so-called advisers were. The guy who his is sole economic adviser doesn't even have a degree in Economics.

- Who are his foreign policy advisers? Is it another whos who list of Neo-Conservatives that we are led to believe he knows absolutely nothing about (Sure is: he said he takes a lot from Mr. Neo-Con John Bolton)? Cain has to know what Neo-Conservatism is because it has become the dominant force in the GOP in the last 40 years. Surely he knows Kristol, Scheunneman, Wolfowitz, John Bolton, Elliot Abrams, Douglas Feith, Michael Ledeen, Norman Podhoretz, Donald Rumsfeld, and all the other folks over at PNAC, RAND, and AEI, among others.

- What cuts is he proposing? None.

- 9-9-9 is a tax increase on the majority of Americans.

- Cain is about as insider establishment as you can get. One doesn't become a Chairman of the KC Fed without being establishment.

- The man has said Alan Greenspan did a great job -- that should be immediatly disqualifying.

Is there anything that Cain doesn't defer to someone else? Foreign policy -- I don't know, I'll let the General tells me what to do along with folks like John Bolton. Why would anyone want another four more years of Bushian Foreign Policy? We've all ready had nearly 12! What about Economics? I don't know, I'll defer to my economic advisers.

Sure, most people can't be an expert on everything, but you can surely be knowledgable enough to have your own informed opinion, at least. There are polymaths in politics and most of the time they are principled and we call these men STATESMAN. The only Statesman in the race is Ron Paul. You think Samuel Adams, or Thomas Jefferson weren't experts in Economics, Constitution, Foreign Policy, and a host of other issues?

What is Cain's plan for entitlements? Anyone know? What about gun rights? Who will he appoint to the Supreme Court? What is he willing/able/want to cut? What is his view on the Patriot Act and other civil liberties violations?

There is one known conservative in the race, and all the conservatives shy away from him because the media tells you to. It's amazing. It's not like 9-9-9 is something new -- been around for quite a while now in his campaign. Only after the Media hypes him like no tomorrow do the folks flock. Seriously get tired of the media pushing narratives and their candidates. There is no more journalism in America.
Thank you bureaucrats for all your hard work, your commitment to public service and public good is essential to the lives of so many. Also, for Pete's sake can we please get some gun control already, no need for hand guns and assault rifles for the public
Klogon
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
MURICA15980 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-18 23:19:50
October 18 2011 23:12 GMT
#2552
Belial88: Because attending church on Sundays makes you a religious fanatic. I think you have it backwards, bro. You're just an anti-religious fanatic. And most of educated America will probably agree with me. Try taking a less extreme approach as extremism tends to be wrong because it is far too biased to make objective conclusions. Sometimes you see things you want to see, and in this case, you're trying really hard to see negatives.
Klogon
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
MURICA15980 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-18 23:23:45
October 18 2011 23:14 GMT
#2553
Its frustrating that every election people get caught up on all the wrong details about a presidential candidate. I think there needs to be a shift away from combative electoral politics and more focus on governing and good judgement calls on the representative's part based on the whole information that they have - by listening to experts in economics, military, trade, education, healthcare, etc. That would actually allow congress and the president to make policy decisions that are actually intellectually in the best interests of our country instead of sticking to ignorant policy promises they shout out only to get elected.

I understand there is a lot of electoral politic game theory and other reasons why this does not work out, but I can be a dreamer.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-19 00:04:36
October 19 2011 00:03 GMT
#2554
The debate is starting now on CNN.

EDIT: Seriously, WTF is with CNN and these stupid, corny, and over-the-top candidate introductions? I thought CNN was supposed to be "the serious" news network....
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
October 19 2011 00:45 GMT
#2555
LOL! Blood is being spilled at this debate.
Voltaire
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1485 Posts
October 19 2011 00:49 GMT
#2556
English as the official language? Yuck.
As long as people believe in absurdities they will continue to commit atrocities.
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-19 01:08:18
October 19 2011 01:06 GMT
#2557
Belial88: Because attending church on Sundays makes you a religious fanatic. I think you have it backwards, bro. You're just an anti-religious fanatic. And most of educated America will probably agree with me. Try taking a less extreme approach as extremism tends to be wrong because it is far too biased to make objective conclusions. Sometimes you see things you want to see, and in this case, you're trying really hard to see negatives.


I suppose. If you think I'm being anti-religious then you are missing my point. Both obama and bush go to church and say the same stuff about god, god bless america, faith, etc. I don't see how saying republicans are christian fanatics, but not saying the same about obama or democrats, is constructive at all. To me they are both religous, can't really be more or less.

If you want to argue about the merits of their policy, fine. If you want to say "well he has X policy because he's christian!", that's ridiculous.

Republicans are all about preserving the Christian Protestant marriage with the power of the government... there are no real conservatives left amongst them.


They are not 'all about ....'. I'm republican and I could care less about christian protestant marriage. Furthermore, just because you want to preserve christian marriage doesn't mean you have to be against gay marriage. And, even if you are are against gay marriage, it doesn't mean you don't think states and municipalities should be able to vote on their own. I don't think any republican has a problem with san francisco giving extra privileges to gay people, or support a tax code that discriminates against single people.

Many republicans also have no problem with gay visiting rights, and I'd say the majority of republicans have absolutely no problem, and support, civil unions. I think even the most religious republicans may very well find personal offence to the term 'gay marriage', but they are not against civil unions.

I think it has more to do with the fact that it's still unpopular to support gay marriage. Same with the fact that most Americans are Christians, and it's standard to try to make yourself relatable. I think Obama is pretty secular tbh.


I'm glad you know what Obama's thinking. It's great you can glean what republicans are thinking too, and that you can reason, with no rational reason, that obama/democrats are less religious, and this somehow translates to one side being more 'fanatic'.

Any christian, on either side, is pretty nuts to me. But I'd rather have a republican who supports states voting on the issue rather than a federal mandate. This is a white, christian country, but at least those places where minorities have larger representation can have their havens.

The government isn't allowed to take civil rights away from minorities just because it won a 51% vote, there are protections against it. The USA is not a democracy, but a constitutional republic.


Marriage is not a right, as defined by the US constitution and bill of rights. It's a privilege. That said, I do think that granting rights based on straight marriage through tax code and visiting rights is questionably constitutional at best.

As a constitutional republic, each state and municipality should vote on the issue of gay rights. Time and time again, though, states vote against gay marriage, except in the case of New York, which was done perfectly legit. The federal government has no place in discussing marriage in any form.

Language about state rights is just code for finding a way to avoid being a constitutional republic, by identifying pockets of the country where you have a majority for some bigoted thing. You'll see republicans use different measures if they're ever in a state without them having a majority.


The federal government is there only to protect rights. From there, states can go as far as make it so heroin is mandatory, or that gay people get half off at mcdonalds.

Republicans support people voting on the issue, and it seems democrats are more concerned with doing what is right. While gay marriage may be correct, what's more important is that people have the freedom to decide on supracivil issues, even if the people are totally ignorant religious nutjobs.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
icemanzdoinwork
Profile Joined August 2010
447 Posts
October 19 2011 01:07 GMT
#2558
A guy brings out a plan to cut 1 trillion dollars in federal spending. We are an hour in and no one wants to talk about it?

I love how Romney, Perry, and Cain are constantly being called out on being liars.
scaban84
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1080 Posts
October 19 2011 01:07 GMT
#2559
On October 19 2011 09:03 xDaunt wrote:
The debate is starting now on CNN.

EDIT: Seriously, WTF is with CNN and these stupid, corny, and over-the-top candidate introductions? I thought CNN was supposed to be "the serious" news network....

Its not as bad as last election when they asked the Dems questions from videos on Youtube lol!
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design." — Friedrich von Hayek
Mobius_1
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United Kingdom2763 Posts
October 19 2011 02:10 GMT
#2560
I'm not a fan of the Republican ideal but I can't see Obama getting a second term, and none of the Dems in the picture can even come close to Obama...

From a purely economic perspective which I am most interested in, I think Cain's 9-9-9 is simple and possibly effective, but given the OWS protesters crying out for more equality, it won't do. (If it even gets implemented in the first place) Also, I have no idea how he's defending it as "equal" when pretty much every study shows middle class pay more under 9-9-9.

Ron Paul's crazy cuts to everything is a gimmicky, last-ditch move for eyeballs and attention, but cutting that much that fast can't be good for social stability (and for all of America's anti-socialist and anti-big-government sentiments, an unrestrained free market could do disastrous things for society and the environment).

Rick Perry is too, well, Texan for my taste and he hasn't actually got a plan in place.

I'm personally favouring Romney, he has a plan, it's not radical or crazy, but 59-points just isn't as eye-catching for the average voter as Cain's plan. Also, his China-hate, should he be elected, could screw over both economies and subsequently the world.

Ugh, I'm not sure what's gonna be worse, one of these guys "tinkering" with the economy or another 4 years of Obama burning money.
Starleague Forever. RIP KT Violet~
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